Syd Barrett: Real Genius or Real Hype?

I like the way different subsections just kind of emerge naturally out of improvisation in their extended pieces. They created it out of an ebb and flow in intensity. Stuff would ratchet up, gradually settle down and then more intensity would creep in again. How much of that was attributable to an impetus from Syd or the group dynamic, I don't know. When Syd was maintaining the quiet moments he frequently played muted strings in percussive fashion. The purpose may have been to do something different, or it may have just been to keep the people dancing. Floyd fans back then were into dancing in a way later fans weren't. Anyhow, I don't know of anyone before then who played the guitar quite so percussively. The periods of high and low intensity seem to foreshadow the later more highly arranged pieces Prog became well known for. Early Floyd made the transitions without pre-arranged bridging sections. Later Floyd and later Prog in general had more varied and perhaps more tasteful transitions, but Interstellar Overdrive and Astronomy Domine broke a lot of ground nevertheless. The first Nektar album followed in the same fashion as early Floyd. They had different sub-sections to pieces in which transitions mainly came about by fading a pice out and dialing it up again with an altered theme. Later Nektar, especially by the time of Recycled, had more arranged pieces with different subsections with more thoughtful transitions.

Edited by HackettFan - August 12 2015 at 18:37

^Yes, sometimes lysergic music requires the use of a lysergic agent.

^I didn't know that the Roundhouse was a standing venue. It was home to the Pentangle before they became very big in Europe.

Meh... would much rather have seen Floyd with Barrett than The Who. But The Who is still pretty cool.

KingCrInuYasha wrote: @Toddler: I dunno, the BBC version of VM has a bit of a silly pop feel which I like. IIRC, there was also a instrumental version of the song that has the band going absolutely nuts. That version is my favorite.

KingCrInuYasha wrote: TODDLER wrote: brainstormer wrote: Did he sing all the songs on the Floyd albums he was on?  ... Not totally. Astronomy Domine has a harmony vocal and it might be Waters backing Syd Barrett. Additionally on "Matilda Mother" ..it may be Waters or an overdubbed vocal of Syd Barrett. Difficult for me to tell...as sometimes, Wright and Waters sang in the style of Syd. "Corporal Clegg" is supposedly Roger Waters singing lead, yet it sounds very much like Syd Barrett.  ... Actually, Wright and Barrett sang lead on "Astronomy Domine" and "Matilda Mother", while Mason sang co-lead on "Corporal Clegg".

Zappa played Interstellar Overdrive with Floyd back 1969. Old news some probably but it was new info to me. Very interesting.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Deb-LFMu9so

TODDLER wrote: SteveG wrote: TODDLER wrote: Syd Barrett was definitely unique with his writing..however he was very rebellious against the corporate music industry. He had money, popularity, and Pink Floyd were being set up for the proper breaks a band needs to succeed in life. Unfortunately for many around him, he wasn't interested in that stuff..because he thought it was wrong for him and generally wrong in the righteous sense. He was a very intelligent man who saw no light at the end of the tunnel for this hyped up "Pop Star" image...which!...he found contrived. Although in the early days he dressed in the wildest British Psychedelic fashion, looked very bubbly/excited/happy in pictures and rubbed off that way to his friends. He was on a positive path! He obtained a high level for that and then changed his mind after "See Emily Play" and Piper began to circulate globally. The "Tower Records" red label and the striped were pretty well known when I was a child. During these times where he felt like a spirit flying upward socially and artistically, he make certain snooty comments to the press regarding being sort of "anti-commercial" and because "See Emily Play" was a hit, he was offended and annoyed by the overwhelming process of the industry who often attempted to mold ANY artist into their commercial image to gain profit. Syd Barrett seemed like he was a noble/sincere fanatic of any creation of art...(poetry or music), he seemed as if he didn't want anyone to eventually touch his art and contrive it and may have already quietly been offended over his surroundings socially in the studio, touring, and overall presentation.  Then he got deeper into LSD and decided with an "attitude" to play with these people's minds. As Roger Waters often said..."Many of the things he did were actually very funny". I totally agree and in "67 ..society had Lenny Bruce, but they probably wouldn't have understood Syd Barrett. He pulled off insane capers in the television studios, constantly setting the cameraman up. When Dick Clark asked Syd..."Syd, you wrote most of the music"..Syd replies, with his hand on his hip.."Yeah, that's right"..and the way he pronounces the word "right" is like..."Yeah, that's right wtf are you gonna do about it?" Or it can be taken that way if the word "right" is phrased like a note traveling upward or changing a low pitch to a higher pitch influences people to think you might have an attitude or they feel like they are bothering you. Lol! Around this period he began to set people up and it made them look like jackasses. He did it this with Roger Waters when he tried to teach him "Have You Got It Yet?" and then he set Norman Smith up having him call a Salvation Army band into the studio, with Syd not arriving until very late, and when asked by Norman Smith "Syd, what do you want them to play?", Syd replied: "I don't know really, well, play anything" "Play anything they'd like"  Regarding this hyped up glamour on Syd for the last 3 or 4 decades, Syd would be in fact right wouldn't he? He was right to feel destructive to that industry...because look at what they did to him now? Some people get the impression that he was just a clown. Not really. He may have not been a classically trained guitarist or a Ritchie Blackmore, but he wrote songs on the guitar and that's all that mattered. It was the style he created later defined..as "Space Rock" or some folks call it Psychedelic Space Rock. Tags are tags. I'm making reference to the point of Syd Barrett possibly being the first person to create the overall "Space Rock" style and sound, which influentially took hold of many "Space Rock" bands throughout the 70's. Another observation on his writing would tell that he may have been the first person to combine a kind of childlike literature in Rock music. Sometimes with a subtle approach and it is bewildering! One album only with the Floyd and I still think it's just as good as Sgt. Pepper regarding it's sophistication as an art form...however just different regarding the various aspects he creates to a song. "Matilda Mother" had well structured, pre-planned sections. He was definitely a true innovator! He influenced many artists in the world to capture something different in songwriting and that's a pretty difficult thing to do. Think about it? He influenced bands for decades after ...however he was just an innocent guy that rebelled against the industry in his own bizarre fashion. Some people in the past have attributed this to the LSD. I for one, do not. He knew exactly what he was doing by playing games on "The Pat Boone Show" and everyone else who complained. Nick Mason: "Should I feel compassion...or shall I kill him?"  Syd Barrett sort of spoiled Pink Floyd's high ideals then , but not now..not in the present because Syd Barrett taught Roger Waters methods, concepts..on writing and Waters remembering all of that, and proceeded to master writing and incorporate Syd's influence. Sections of "Julia Dream", "It Would Be So Nice", "Crying Song", Part 2 and part 3 of "The Narrow Way", "Free Four", "Breathe (In the air)" and "Mother" from The Wall..are all very influenced by Syd Barrett's structure and melody. The song "Opel" ..if re-done,,with choir, bass, electric guitar, and keyboards would sound like a Pink Floyd song belonging to the "Animals", "Pigs On The Wing" period. Some material Syd Barrett wrote later for solo albums ..seemed to influence Pink Floyd's later writing. He was a very unique individual in the history of Rock music. He was a natural. Great exposition Todd, but what is your basis for it? This is the sort of write up that requires footnotes and bibliography so that it doesn't come off sounding like hearsay and speculation, baring your purely musical observances. If you read into what has been printed on Syd Barrett, interviews, ...you can easily pin point that many of his incidents which embarrassed the Floyd or frustrated them were an act of rebellion directed toward the industry. Roger Waters said several times in interviews about Syd Barrett not wanting to do the BBC..How he said to Syd..."What do you mean you don't want to do the BBC?" "This is what we've been waiting for!" "This is what we've been working for... for a very long time and  now you're saying that you don't want to do it?" Syd Barrett replied with some snooty little statement like..."Well, John Lennon didn't want to do it, so why should I?" Something of that nature and then there are articles I've read decades ago as a teenager...where it was completely obvious that Syd Barrett disliked the "Pop Music" world. Also...there are several individuals interviewed on video available on YOUTUBE..who were Syd Barrett's friends in Cambridge...and they all say the same thing actually....about Syd not being cut out for the industry. In the same way that Mick Jagger says that very same thing about Brian Jones

I know there were times when, instead of playing their more accessible pop songs, Syd would just go on with an extra long Interstellar Overdrive. He wrote so many pop songs and seemed real good at it, but do you think he liked them? Was he happy writing them for their own sake, or did he feel pressured to write them. Or was his problem just with the industry beyond the product?

HackettFan wrote: TODDLER wrote: SteveG wrote: TODDLER wrote: Syd Barrett was definitely unique with his writing..however he was very rebellious against the corporate music industry. He had money, popularity, and Pink Floyd were being set up for the proper breaks a band needs to succeed in life. Unfortunately for many around him, he wasn't interested in that stuff..because he thought it was wrong for him and generally wrong in the righteous sense. He was a very intelligent man who saw no light at the end of the tunnel for this hyped up "Pop Star" image...which!...he found contrived. Although in the early days he dressed in the wildest British Psychedelic fashion, looked very bubbly/excited/happy in pictures and rubbed off that way to his friends. He was on a positive path! He obtained a high level for that and then changed his mind after "See Emily Play" and Piper began to circulate globally. The "Tower Records" red label and the striped were pretty well known when I was a child. During these times where he felt like a spirit flying upward socially and artistically, he make certain snooty comments to the press regarding being sort of "anti-commercial" and because "See Emily Play" was a hit, he was offended and annoyed by the overwhelming process of the industry who often attempted to mold ANY artist into their commercial image to gain profit. Syd Barrett seemed like he was a noble/sincere fanatic of any creation of art...(poetry or music), he seemed as if he didn't want anyone to eventually touch his art and contrive it and may have already quietly been offended over his surroundings socially in the studio, touring, and overall presentation.  Then he got deeper into LSD and decided with an "attitude" to play with these people's minds. As Roger Waters often said..."Many of the things he did were actually very funny". I totally agree and in "67 ..society had Lenny Bruce, but they probably wouldn't have understood Syd Barrett. He pulled off insane capers in the television studios, constantly setting the cameraman up. When Dick Clark asked Syd..."Syd, you wrote most of the music"..Syd replies, with his hand on his hip.."Yeah, that's right"..and the way he pronounces the word "right" is like..."Yeah, that's right wtf are you gonna do about it?" Or it can be taken that way if the word "right" is phrased like a note traveling upward or changing a low pitch to a higher pitch influences people to think you might have an attitude or they feel like they are bothering you. Lol! Around this period he began to set people up and it made them look like jackasses. He did it this with Roger Waters when he tried to teach him "Have You Got It Yet?" and then he set Norman Smith up having him call a Salvation Army band into the studio, with Syd not arriving until very late, and when asked by Norman Smith "Syd, what do you want them to play?", Syd replied: "I don't know really, well, play anything" "Play anything they'd like"  Regarding this hyped up glamour on Syd for the last 3 or 4 decades, Syd would be in fact right wouldn't he? He was right to feel destructive to that industry...because look at what they did to him now? Some people get the impression that he was just a clown. Not really. He may have not been a classically trained guitarist or a Ritchie Blackmore, but he wrote songs on the guitar and that's all that mattered. It was the style he created later defined..as "Space Rock" or some folks call it Psychedelic Space Rock. Tags are tags. I'm making reference to the point of Syd Barrett possibly being the first person to create the overall "Space Rock" style and sound, which influentially took hold of many "Space Rock" bands throughout the 70's. Another observation on his writing would tell that he may have been the first person to combine a kind of childlike literature in Rock music. Sometimes with a subtle approach and it is bewildering! One album only with the Floyd and I still think it's just as good as Sgt. Pepper regarding it's sophistication as an art form...however just different regarding the various aspects he creates to a song. "Matilda Mother" had well structured, pre-planned sections. He was definitely a true innovator! He influenced many artists in the world to capture something different in songwriting and that's a pretty difficult thing to do. Think about it? He influenced bands for decades after ...however he was just an innocent guy that rebelled against the industry in his own bizarre fashion. Some people in the past have attributed this to the LSD. I for one, do not. He knew exactly what he was doing by playing games on "The Pat Boone Show" and everyone else who complained. Nick Mason: "Should I feel compassion...or shall I kill him?"  Syd Barrett sort of spoiled Pink Floyd's high ideals then , but not now..not in the present because Syd Barrett taught Roger Waters methods, concepts..on writing and Waters remembering all of that, and proceeded to master writing and incorporate Syd's influence. Sections of "Julia Dream", "It Would Be So Nice", "Crying Song", Part 2 and part 3 of "The Narrow Way", "Free Four", "Breathe (In the air)" and "Mother" from The Wall..are all very influenced by Syd Barrett's structure and melody. The song "Opel" ..if re-done,,with choir, bass, electric guitar, and keyboards would sound like a Pink Floyd song belonging to the "Animals", "Pigs On The Wing" period. Some material Syd Barrett wrote later for solo albums ..seemed to influence Pink Floyd's later writing. He was a very unique individual in the history of Rock music. He was a natural. Great exposition Todd, but what is your basis for it? This is the sort of write up that requires footnotes and bibliography so that it doesn't come off sounding like hearsay and speculation, baring your purely musical observances. If you read into what has been printed on Syd Barrett, interviews, ...you can easily pin point that many of his incidents which embarrassed the Floyd or frustrated them were an act of rebellion directed toward the industry. Roger Waters said several times in interviews about Syd Barrett not wanting to do the BBC..How he said to Syd..."What do you mean you don't want to do the BBC?" "This is what we've been waiting for!" "This is what we've been working for... for a very long time and  now you're saying that you don't want to do it?" Syd Barrett replied with some snooty little statement like..."Well, John Lennon didn't want to do it, so why should I?" Something of that nature and then there are articles I've read decades ago as a teenager...where it was completely obvious that Syd Barrett disliked the "Pop Music" world. Also...there are several individuals interviewed on video available on YOUTUBE..who were Syd Barrett's friends in Cambridge...and they all say the same thing actually....about Syd not being cut out for the industry. In the same way that Mick Jagger says that very same thing about Brian Jones I know there were times when, instead of playing their more accessible pop songs, Syd would just go on with an extra long Interstellar Overdrive. He wrote so many pop songs and seemed real good at it, but do you think he liked them? Was he happy writing them for their own sake, or did he feel pressured to write them. Or was his problem just with the industry beyond the product?

It's difficult to know if he personally liked his songs whether they were commercial or not. According to Norman Smith ..Syd Barrett was difficult to get to know in a very intimate way. It could mean a number of things. For example: Syd Barrett may have disliked Norman Smith's character or may have felt he was snooty, writing his little dots on manuscript...or...Syd Barrett could have entered a different world in his mind upon first or shortly after working with Norman Smith and perhaps Mr. Smith was judging his personality upon that? According to the other Floyd producer, Joe Boyd....he recalls Syd being very life-like and an energetic thing about him. A person whois on the "up rise" in life, more or less...and later stating that he had not seen Syd for months ...but when he finally did run across Syd at the UFO Club, that the twinkle in Syd's eye was gone as if someone had turned off a switch. Some of these characters who knew Syd, worked with him, either knew him in the early days..or the mid part of his stay with the Floyd when he began to fade away...which that is what his personality did ...it became distant . He gave off the impression that he was looking through you instead of looking at you. When he was young, and I'm not quite sure ..it may have been during the writing of "Chapter 24" or prior to that... he was interested in joining a Sikh sect.  According to Storm Thorgerson...they both visited the guru and Syd was deemed too young.  I do recall reading years ago that it deeply offended him and he supposedly hit rock bottom with that. I tend to believe Thorgerson's story. Thorgerson stated that Syd Barrett was intensely upset by the whole incident.  This experience alone...IMO...can be attributed to part of his darkness, his mission of acting like he didn't care or seem to care at all about someone's reaction to his odd personality, influencing him to actually take the "dark path", creating odd associations within his songs, but further taking more LSD and drifting further away from life, or that being a state of depression that was beautiful and gave him the desire to live more like a recluse...could all be a reaction from being letdown by a sect...or shut out!  In the press for years and the internet vids...you have a entire group of people talking about him and sometimes saying nothing. 

Edited by TODDLER - August 14 2015 at 00:53

TODDLER wrote: Dellinger wrote: TODDLER wrote: brainstormer wrote: Did he sing all the songs on the Floyd albums he was on?   Not totally. Astronomy Domine has a harmony vocal and it might be Waters backing Syd Barrett. Additionally on "Matilda Mother" ..it may be Waters or an overdubbed vocal of Syd Barrett. Difficult for me to tell...as sometimes, Wright and Waters sang in the style of Syd. "Corporal Clegg" is supposedly Roger Waters singing lead, yet it sounds very much like Syd Barrett. Rick Wright's vocal work can be matched with similarities to Syd Barrett's on very early Wright songs...such as B sides to their singles. Syd Barrett sang lead on most of Piper and lead only on one track from Saucerful which was Jugband Blues. "Scream Thy Last Scream" , written during his last days with the Floyd featured Nick Mason on lead vocal and Syd Barrett singing along with Mason, yet octaves higher in pitch, sped up more or less, emulating the same sound used for Alvin and the Chipmunks. On the BBC Sessions '67, it is easier to tell the difference between Waters voice and Barrett's. This cd contains rare versions of "Astronomy Domine", "The Gnome", "Scarecrow" "Set The Controls" , (which has Syd Barrett on guitar), "Matilda Mother", "Flaming", "Scream Thy Last Scream" and "Vegetable Man". I highly recommend this cd to anyone who appreciates the early Floyd. I have the "so called" original studio recordings of "Vegetable Man" and "Scream Thy Last Scream" and I enjoy them quite more than the BBC recordings because they are not as stripped down.   I would really love to get this BBC CD you talk of, but as far as I know it's not officially released, and I wouldn't know how to get it. I have been wishing the BBC concerts (or some other early early concert with Gilmour already on it) were to be officially released, but a concert with Syd on it would be just about as interesting for me. It's on Amazon/music

Oh well, I had never thought of looking for BBC recordings from Floyd, since I never knew they officially released any. I wonder if this ones are official or not, but I did find many options on Amazon... and it seemed from different recordings. I guess I'll have to get something out of the choices.

Edited by Dellinger - August 14 2015 at 21:30