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Reason: David Bowie was already popular when Genesis had Peter Gabriel prancing aroung in "The Fox on the Rocks" costume. My opinion is that glam rock had its basis in the Beatles Sgt.Pepper and was adapted by many other bands (including Genesis and David Bowie).
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Posted: January 06 2012 at 02:17
Sgt Peppers did pull together a lot of the elements that we recognise as prog. It was a statement which is the point that many seem to overlook. Most of the other albums by bands at the time were experimental. The Beatles were no longer experimenting. The idea that journalists have been 'brainwashed' into voting for it is a load of hogwash. When asked, many leading prog musicians such as Bob Fripp ,Greg Lake ,Ian Anderson etc name Sgt Peppers as the most important album release of the sixties.
BTW whether you rate at that highly is unimportant. I hardly ever listen to it and would probably rate it at 3 stars but thats still beside the point. Its what was pulled together and the fact thats its an artistic statement thats important.
^ Three stars eh? This statement that pulled together a lot of the elements we recognise as Prog is good but not essential? Why then do so many independent thinkers in the music press place the critter at number one in practically every poll that has ever been published since the dawn of time? Answer: It's simply the most well known and polished example of a flux of influences that were the Zeitgeist of the late 60's. Sgt Pepper is clearly a pivotal statement in the development of popular music of any genre but it's tiresome to read it equated as tantamount to the primordial soup from which Prog slithered out of. The only song structures on the album that depart from the tried and tested tin pan ally format are Kite, Within You (which sucks IMO) and Day in the Life. The rhythms are at best plain vanilla rock plod and there is not a trace of jazz chromaticism/improvisation or classical music anywhere. R'n'B, jazz, classical and pop are the core ingredients of the 1st generation proggers. Don't confuse the starter with the main course
BTW whether you rate at that highly is unimportant. I hardly ever listen to it and would probably rate it at 3 stars but thats still beside the point. Its what was pulled together and the fact thats its an artistic statement thats important.
Thank you for not over-glorifying it. I really do not get how every year it is #1 on the Rolling Stone best albums list.
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Posted: January 06 2012 at 12:13
progistoomainstream wrote:
richardh wrote:
BTW whether you rate at that highly is unimportant. I hardly ever listen to it and would probably rate it at 3 stars but thats still beside the point. Its what was pulled together and the fact thats its an artistic statement thats important.
Thank you for not over-glorifying it. I really do not get how every year it is #1 on the Rolling Stone best albums list.
Sometimes with art, the critics are cought in the tradition, Mona Lisa, Mozart, Sct. Pepper.
Nobody dares to say in print, that they are not top of the top's. No matter that loads of people are actualy more into
Picasso, Bethoven, Pink Floyd.
NB:Im not saying they are better, its just as examples.
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Posted: January 06 2012 at 12:25
progistoomainstream wrote:
Horizons wrote:
Gabriel's Genesis inspired glam rock?
Answer: Partially
Reason: David Bowie was already popular when Genesis had Peter Gabriel prancing aroung in "The Fox on the Rocks" costume. My opinion is that glam rock had its basis in the Beatles Sgt.Pepper and was adapted by many other bands (including Genesis and David Bowie).
Actualy loads of glam artists was going strong at the time of Foxtrot.
T.REX, Bowie, Sweet, Slade, Roxy Music.
Its more likely that they tought Gabriel about stage dressing, than the other way around, what he did was taking it a few steps further, making a theatrical preformance grounded in his lyrics, not just dressing up
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
Reason: David Bowie was already popular when Genesis had Peter Gabriel prancing aroung in "The Fox on the Rocks" costume. My opinion is that glam rock had its basis in the Beatles Sgt.Pepper and was adapted by many other bands (including Genesis and David Bowie).
Actualy loads of glam artists was going strong at the time of Foxtrot.
T.REX, Bowie, Sweet, Slade, Roxy Music.
Its more likely that they tought Gabriel about stage dressing, than the other way around, what he did was taking it a few steps further, making a theatrical preformance grounded in his lyrics, not just dressing up
True. But the Fox costume was introduced in 1970. That was Gabriel's first costume and it was put on the cover of Foxtrot years later. At the revelation of the costume, there were fewer glam rock bands but there still were some.
I agree with you that Gabriel did not inspire glam rock but took it to a new level of theatricality and artistic credibility.
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Posted: January 07 2012 at 09:15
I don't think there is a thing as a first
prog album. The Beatles were always progressive. I would not call them progressive
rock but I do think they verged on it with "A Day in the Life" and
"I Want You (She's So Heavy). The Beatles were lauded by fellow rockers
for their unusual chord progressions and harmonies way before Zappa or the
Beach Boys got to Pet Sounds and were talking as early as 1963. The Beatles
superb pop songwriting with a combination of experimentation is what made the
Beatles standout to people like Robert Fripp, Stevie Wonder, Roger McGuinn,
Brian Wilson and countless others. Being weird or experimental doesn't mean it's good or really being innovative. For all of Zappa experimentation the one thing is missing in my opinion in a lot of this his music is the actual song itself. There are more innovations in a song like 'Tomorrow Never Knows" than most of the bands being mentioned here but to me it has a special quality that is missing in the majority of bands being mentioned. You know it's good from the first seconds you hear it.
Take for example listen to "Strawberry
Fields Forever" a haunting melody, frequent time changes, eastern
instruments, mellotron, backward drums, the fade out/fade in jam etc... You can
say that Zappa was just as experimental but the musicians and the people who
were buying the records went along in what the Beatles were doing. Remember Pet
Sounds was not a huge commercial success but Revolver and Sgt Pepper were. As
much I respect what Brian Wilson did with Smile it was never released until now
and because of that it didn't influence anyone at that time.
I remember reading that Ian Macdonald of King
Crimson in his opinion the roots of prog-rock started with
"Yesterday" because of the way the strings were used. I was listening
to Revolver the other day and you are hearing twin backward guitar solos
"I'm Only Sleeping", live tape looping from 5 different sources, Leslie
vocals, a new drum style "Tomorrow Never Knows", a classical/pop
hybrid strings and vocals "Eleanor Rigby", and a full blown Indian
song "Love You To". You wonder where Syd Barrett was getting some of
his ideas well listen to a childlike psychedelic switching to 3/4 4/4 on
"She Said She Said" and "Yellow Submarine". I don't think
one band invented prog-rock it evolved but I have to say if there was one band
who I would say who had the most influence on the start of it I would easily
say the Beatles. Let's not forget that the Beatles popularized feedback and
hugely influenced the appregiated 12 string guitar style "You Can't Do
That" that the Byrds would adopt a year later.
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Posted: January 07 2012 at 22:19
First off King Crimson's style comes from a combination of The Beatles' most experimental moments (Revolver, Sgt. Pepper's), Miles Davis' early experimentation with electronic and rock music (In a Silent Way, Filles de Kilimanjaro), Jimmy Hendrix's psychedelia and expressionist music (Bartok, Stravinsky, etc.). And this is the kind of musical syncretism that gave birth to Prog.
The Beatles are at most an experimental pop/rock band that borrowed elements from other genres.
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Posted: January 07 2012 at 22:47
Here you have samples from albums that where released in 1967 and are at least as proggy as Sgt. Pepper's:
so... saying that Sgt. Pepper's is the first Prog album (something that's very difficult to pinpoint -not to say impossible-) or even THE single most important influence in the genre isn't quite accurate...
(sorry for the huge post)
Edited by ProgressiveAttic - January 07 2012 at 22:48
Michael's Sonic Kaleidoscope Mondays 5:00pm EST(re-runs Thursdays 3:00pm) @ Delicious Agony Progressive Rock Radio(http://www.deliciousagony.com)
The Beatles are at most an experimental pop/rock band that borrowed elements from other genres.
I would have to disagree and say that The Beatles are the most sucessfully progressive band ever. They may not be progressive rock, but they are much more than "at most an experimental pop rock band with elements from other genres"
Edited by progistoomainstream - January 08 2012 at 01:42
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Posted: January 08 2012 at 02:24
One of the Beatles' gifts was to distill musical ideas into concise but
concentrated pieces; whether that makes them progressive is debatable,
and though new compared to the typical Pop of the day, it was still
very different from the extreme development and thematics of the
post-Psych artrock movement that came after. They were,
without much doubt, a rock 'n roll band with a flair for pop
songwriting and innovation within that format. If I may paraphrase Mr. Churchill, "It was not the end. It was not even the beginning of the end. It was, perhaps, the end of the beginning."
That concludes this Pompous Moment of the Week. Thank you.
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Posted: January 08 2012 at 08:41
ProgressiveAttic wrote:
First off King Crimson's style comes from a combination of The Beatles' most experimental moments (Revolver, Sgt. Pepper's), Miles Davis' early experimentation with electronic and rock music (In a Silent Way, Filles de Kilimanjaro), Jimmy Hendrix's psychedelia and expressionist music (Bartok, Stravinsky, etc.). And this is the kind of musical syncretism that gave birth to Prog.
The Beatles are at most an experimental pop/rock band that borrowed elements from other genres.
Uh, no and that is like saying that Jimi Hendrix was a great guitarist who borrowed from other genres including the Beatles themselves.
The Beatles were superb songwriters, who greatly influenced the change of the sound of popular music, and changed how records were made. Not only that they were the key band that started the British Invasion which in turn started what I call the transatlantic exchanging of musical ideas between British and American rock bands. I highly doubt that Zappa or Bob Dylan would have ever heard of the Rolling Stones if it were not the Beatles paving the way for them to be successful in the states.
King Crimson, Hendrix, Miles Davis, and everyone else borrowed elements from other genres. The Beatles songs, the chord changes and melodies were in stark contrast to what I would say that came before in rock and roll. The unique drum beats, the way they used other instruments, the harmonic arrangements, for example 'Strawberry Fields" marked a significant move away from Revolver, and indeed a significant step forward in pop music, both musically and studio innovations. But you see that is only one song. As for the Beatles being progressive rock? I would say they walked that tough tight rope of being rock/pop while being progressive with the public and musicians going along with it.
By the way for another example what do you call a song like "Happiness Is A Warm Gun"? It has more time signatures than what I would say most progressive rock bands would do. It has 4 distinct sections with various musical styles and vocal styles.
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Posted: January 08 2012 at 10:34
NYSPORTSFAN wrote:
ProgressiveAttic wrote:
First off King Crimson's style comes from a combination of The Beatles' most experimental moments (Revolver, Sgt. Pepper's), Miles Davis' early experimentation with electronic and rock music (In a Silent Way, Filles de Kilimanjaro), Jimmy Hendrix's psychedelia and expressionist music (Bartok, Stravinsky, etc.). And this is the kind of musical syncretism that gave birth to Prog. The Beatles are at most an experimental pop/rock band that borrowed elements from other genres.
Uh, no and that is like saying that Jimi Hendrix was a great guitarist who borrowed from other genres including the Beatles themselves.
The Beatles were superb songwriters, who greatly influenced the change of the sound of popular music, and changed how records were made. Not only that they were the key band that started the British Invasion which in turn started what I call the transatlantic exchanging of musical ideas between British and American rock bands. I highly doubt that Zappa or Bob Dylan would have ever heard of the Rolling Stones if it were not the Beatles paving the way for them to be successful in the states.
King Crimson, Hendrix, Miles Davis, and everyone else borrowed elements from other genres. The Beatles songs, the chord changes and melodies were in stark contrast to what I would say that came before in rock and roll. The unique drum beats, the way they used other instruments, the harmonic arrangements, for example 'Strawberry Fields" marked a significant move away from Revolver, and indeed a significant step forward in pop music, both musically and studio innovations. But you see that is only one song. As for the Beatles being progressive rock? I would say they walked that tough tight rope of being rock/pop while being progressive with the public and musicians going along with it.
By the way for another example what do you call a song like "Happiness Is A Warm Gun"? It has more time signatures than what I would say most progressive rock bands would do. It has 4 distinct sections with various musical styles and vocal styles.
I am not saying that The Beatles didn't have their Prog moments (for me tracks like I Want You are Prog Rock) or that they weren't "progressive" (in the strict sense of the word). My point is that despite of all the experimentation, the innovation and the blending of genres they never stopped being a pop/rock group (a very sophisticated one though).
While The Beatles blended many genres and styles together, their signature pop/rock style always prevailed. On the other hand, bands like King Crimson gave a step further and reduced the pop/rock element to give space for the other genres and styles to have more influence in their own style, finally divorcing themselves from other forms of rock and popular music... and that's how Prog Rock was born...
Michael's Sonic Kaleidoscope Mondays 5:00pm EST(re-runs Thursdays 3:00pm) @ Delicious Agony Progressive Rock Radio(http://www.deliciousagony.com)
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Posted: January 13 2012 at 10:35
Hi everybody!
Interestingly enough, many Prog musicians themselves do cite
Sgt. Pepper as the first (Proto-)Prog album, cause of its
conceptual qualities.
Second then historically, would be Floyd's Piper at the
Gates of Dawn (Pepper June 67 / Piper August 67).
Musically for sure Piper has, imo, the first 'real'
Prog song with Interstellar Overdrive (long and innovative
improvisation), even if it was labelled 'psychedelic' in
those days.
There's also Zappa's Freak Out! as early as March 67 to think of.
How about Velvet Underground's debut in October 67 or
the Doors debut with The End-epic also in March 67.
But since the term 'concept' is relevant for Progressive
Rock albums of the early Seventies, one could indeed say
with some reason that Pepper paved the way.
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Posted: January 13 2012 at 17:02
MagicMoo wrote:
Hi everybody!
Interestingly enough, many Prog musicians themselves do cite Sgt. Pepper as the first (Proto-)Prog album, cause of its conceptual qualities. Second then historically, would be Floyd's Piper at the Gates of Dawn (Pepper June 67 / Piper August 67). Musically for sure Piper has, imo, the first 'real' Prog song with Interstellar Overdrive (long and innovative improvisation), even if it was labelled 'psychedelic' in those days. There's also Zappa's Freak Out! as early as March 67 to think of. How about Velvet Underground's debut in October 67 or the Doors debut with The End-epic also in March 67. But since the term 'concept' is relevant for Progressive Rock albums of the early Seventies, one could indeed say with some reason that Pepper paved the way.
I don't understand what is so Proggish about Freak Out? Combining doo-wop with avant influences doesn't make it progressive rock IMO.
Just because "The Return of the Son of the Monster Magnet" is 12 minutes long doesn't make it prog.
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Was Sgt. Pepper the first Prog Album?
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Horizons wrote:
