Swans
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=90204
Printed Date: November 29 2024 at 17:35
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Swans
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Subject: Swans
Date Posted: October 20 2012 at 13:50
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Why has nobody gotten around to this yet? Swans' 2012 album The Seer is an instant prog classic, and certainly qualifies them for inclusion. To some degree their previous album, My Father Will Guide Me... does as well. Which sub-genre? Good question. I would semi-jokingly say Krautrock, honestly. Or maybe eclectic or something. Samples: so good |
Replies:
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: October 20 2012 at 13:54
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I like Swans. I only have Children of God/World of Skin though, and it is not very prog.
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: October 20 2012 at 13:59
Hence the caveat that it is The Seer which qualifies them for the site |
thellama73 wrote:Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: October 20 2012 at 14:00
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Not gonna lie I was kind of surprised when I saw they weren't here when I first listened to The Seer. That sh*t's massive. I'll take another listen to confirm, but I'm thinking Exp/Post would be the best place for these guys. ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: October 20 2012 at 14:05
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Brief sampling confirms this. I can't really thing of another place where it could fit. I'll alert the team. ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 20 2012 at 14:08
| Soundtracks for the Blind and Swans are Dead are both solid post-rockin' arguments for inclusion as well. Children of God is probably still my favorite though. Also kinda progressive but maybe not in a PA-proggy-prog way. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: October 20 2012 at 14:10
| Everything they've done is "progressive," but unfortunately that's not necessarily what "prog rock" means |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 20 2012 at 14:20
| ^I know what you mean, but I still think both Soundtracks for the Blind and Swans are Dead are partly pioneering post rock-albums and more than "just" progressive |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 20 2012 at 14:26
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Interesting. My initial reaction was just "No", but I haven't got The Seer (yet - I'm a big fan and I will be buying it).
While they are variously pegged as "ambient", "experimental", "post- punk", "post rock" and "art rock", based on their work upto (but not necessarily including) The Seer I don't see any of that crossing-over into any of those Progressive Rock categories that carry the same tags as we interpret them here. Not every post rock band is progressive post rock (for example).
------------- What? |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: October 20 2012 at 14:29
I recommend you get on that, magnificent album. I don't hesitate at all to say it's their best yet. |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: October 20 2012 at 14:32
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I've not heard everything they've done but I'd definitely agree that The Seer is the most progressive I've heard from them, not sure where they would fit on PA, though. And I still like Filth more :P |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: October 20 2012 at 15:02
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Personally, I didn't get much out of the album, but I can defiantly see them fitting into Prog-Related, possibly even RIO/Avant
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow">  The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: October 22 2012 at 08:56
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Put in a resounding 'NO' this morning but hadn't seen this thread nor heard The Seer yet. Intriguing listen, being largely instrumental it brings the music more to the fore then any other Swans album. Not sure though this one album is Prog enough to support inclusion of this band. Not that the 'indie' label does them any justice of course... |
Posted By: Sheavy
Date Posted: October 22 2012 at 22:44
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If they get rejected would someone be awesome enough to sponsor for prog-related? ------------- 
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Posted By: Eria Tarka
Date Posted: October 24 2012 at 23:08
| Post-Rock? I guess. |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: October 24 2012 at 23:17
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/\ I really don't think so
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Fox On The Rocks
Date Posted: October 25 2012 at 18:56
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It's only logical that Swans should be in the database, like seriously. ------------- 
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Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: October 25 2012 at 19:06
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I think they'd be great in Related. They do kinda fit in Avant and Post-rock, but barely, IMO
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 25 2012 at 19:54
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I have only just begun my journey with this band - meaning, I own some 5 albums by them, but as I hear it, what really would qualify them for inclusion here on PA, surely would be the most recent releases, where I for one hear a lot of post-rock. The thing is, it's pretty much their own concoction of it no less. Unlike Dean, I tend to hear it as something unequivocally progressive.
It doesn't sound like anything other in terms of post-rock, and that has a lot to do with the sombre and long drawn out atmospheres. Krautrock has been suggested, and maybe there is something in these vast atmospherics, I still think post fits better. Anywho, the thing is - is a few (or one) album(s) enough, when the artists have a huge discography behind them that has little to do with PA. If so, where are The Scorpions? Or Serge Gainsbourg? We either need that album tagging thing - allowing us to enter individual progressive outings, or else we have to go through a lot of those "Are Swans really prog?" Threads... ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: October 26 2012 at 14:46
| ^ moved to post-rock team for a second shot, not PM in any case |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 01:28
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Swans are a band that have been on my 'listen to' list for awhile; all the talk on the webz about the new album got me interested again. From what little I knew about them I thought they were some kind of noise-rock group. Apparently they are one of those groups who change their sound every few albums. I heard the entire new album and these are my thoughts... It would make a great fit for Post. Not only does it sound like Post but Swans are sometimes referred to as 'post rock' and have a similar musical background to a lot of the early PR bands. Generally the music is in a similar territory to the darker, more orchestrated PR stuff but also has elements of Krautrock-influenced Post as well. About the only tracks that are not very post-y IMO would be "The Seer Returns" which sounds like TMV at their most bluesy, and the song with Karen O on vocals. Even that noisy, avant track sounds like GYBE. OK, now that's all fine and dandy but here's the problem: currently only two of the four members of the PR team have been voting/posting. As it stands, a new suggestion needs three 'yes' votes. Not only Swans but every artist that is being suggested to the team will not be added until they can get a third 'yes' vote. So, I really don't know what's going to happen. Great album, though. ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: Prog Sothoth
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 09:35
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I'd say from Soundtracks For The Blind onwards they were quite post-rock. The song "Helpless Child" is a monster of a track that predates a decent portion of these groups that spend full albums replicating that idea. As for their stuff beforehand, it's not traditionally prog in the instrumentation, but the ideas are certainly progressive if nothing else. In the 80s, when a song from something like Greed comes on some college radio station, there was no mistake within a few seconds as to who that band was. Swans really had their own thing going on back then. I need to hear this new album of theirs, since it seems it really fits the post rock label according to everyone. |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 10:07
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The only other active member voted 'no'...so it looks like Swans are not getting on PA unless someone adds them as 'prog related'.
------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: pianoman
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 00:01
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Come'on guys, how is this not prog?
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Posted By: Raccoon
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 00:48
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^ and people think Magma sounds like devil's music! At least that song, sounds like some strong Avant. ------------- Check out my FREE album: A one-man project The Distant Dynasty |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 06:44
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I love the Swans, but I have to admit this is probably a tough call. Only one album is required to qualify a band as prog, but if a band's done non-prog (progressive perhaps, but not prog; a distinction I've come to accept here) albums for 30 years and makes one prog album, does that really make them a prog band? Just playing devil's advocate here, because of course I'd love to have the chance to officially review their albums here, but I trust the teams' judgment to make the right call here. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 09:59
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^ The above was exactly my reasoning for voting No with regards to Post-Metal. (that and Swans not being Metal in any sort of way of course) Prog-related they are neither, at least I won't 'sponsor' them. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 11:15
^I am glad I'm not the only one who feels that way then This would, of course, all be rendered moot, if we had individual tagging - ahem...... Then we could also show to the world of progressive music fans, that we don't think of A Passion Play as prog folk - and that we also hear the overt symphonic qualities of the first Crimson album, even if they reside in the eclectic quarters. Then again, that is obvious isn't it? ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 14:36
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We should have song tagging and put each individual Pink Floyd and Can song in it's own neat little box |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 15:26
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: December 31 2012 at 14:02
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Bump majore. Come on guys, they have to fit somewhere. ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: December 31 2012 at 14:55
While this was the stated rule for a long time (the "one and in" rule), it apparently came out of the founder's initial desire to get bands added and build up the database. These days this "rule" has been discussed and reconsidered by some collabs and at least one member of the A team that I'm aware of....whereas the thinking would be that when an artist has a huge discog, there really should be more than just "one prog album" to their name. Rather, they should have a few, enough to call a portion of their career a "prog" period.....if that makes sense. Keep in mind this is just my take on discussions I've had....not PA policy. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: December 31 2012 at 15:43
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^ I should add that comment should not be taken as anti-Swans. It was a general comment about all proposed groups that have huge discogs. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: December 31 2012 at 22:20
| No, I didn't interpret it as anti-Swans at all Jim, and I appreciate you sharing your position on that |
Posted By: Electrocuted
Date Posted: February 26 2013 at 05:50
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You guys make me laugh always arguing if it is or isn't Prog. I imagine you all look like bearded babies hiding in a filing cabinet. Swans are a most excellent band, and after meeting them on two occasions I'd say they always nailed it! The Seer is a great album to do the misses too, cos if you're not exiting and loud, the music is.....LOL!!!!  no offence meant of course.  especially if you are a lady  or you are exiting in bed  or if you arn't a bearded baby  or if Swans isn't Prog  ------------- Progression doesn't happen unless it is new! |
Posted By: ArturdeLara
Date Posted: February 26 2013 at 06:42
Swans belong in PA  ------------- "Those who are not shocked when they first come across Prog theory cannot possibly have understood it." - Niels Bohr "If you think you understand Prog, you don't understand Prog." - Richard Feynman |
Posted By: ArturdeLara
Date Posted: February 26 2013 at 06:51
------------- "Those who are not shocked when they first come across Prog theory cannot possibly have understood it." - Niels Bohr "If you think you understand Prog, you don't understand Prog." - Richard Feynman |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 26 2013 at 06:55
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Eh? José Cid only has one album listed here because no one has bothered to add the others - if you feel like adding more José Cid albums then please, be my guest. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 26 2013 at 07:00
Hi there Artur We've had this discussion a couple of times before, but what perhaps is one of the key reasons(and probably also one of the hardest to grasp really) for not including an act like Swans, is not that they aren't progressive, because they are, but because they aren't prog. There is a difference. I don't know what to stamp The Seer with, other than it was my pick of the year for 2012, but in regards to PA - I haven't got a clue. Sometimes bands can be extremely progressive and foreseeing, yet still they don't seem to fit in at PA. That's the truth, and also the reason why some folks get their panties in a twist, because the likes of Boris, Future Sound of London, Pharoah Sanders and fellow minded pioneers aren't included. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: February 26 2013 at 07:19
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It is a tough nut to crack, yes it is. And to reply to Electrocuted somewhat sarcastic comment, we are not arguing over what is and isn't prog just because we're a bunch of nerds who have nothing better to talk about (or "babies in a filing cabinet" as you said). The scope of music covered by this site is something that's taken pretty seriously, and lots of people take great care that the boundaries of "prog" don't get trampled on too badly. Not because "prog" is an exclusive club that's better than anything else, but because a more defined scope of musical styles is necessary to keep things orderly here. Years ago, they were a lot more lenient (in fact very little oversight at all) about what bands could be added, and the database became unmanageable and the site suffered as a result. Teams were then built to provide this oversight and handle band suggestions. Perhaps someone who was around back then could confirm this, but that is the story I have heard. I say this because I remember when I was new here, and wondered why the hell everyone was so hung up on what prog is/isn't, and why they were so picky about what bands should be included. I understand now. As for Swans, they are possibly my favorite band at the moment. They are progressive and forward-looking, especially nowadays. Yet I feel no slight at the idea that they are probably not a good fit for this site. I still love the band, and I can discuss them in other areas of the forum. What have I lost? Nothing. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: ArturdeLara
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 12:46
Even the poppiest, cheesiest ones? ------------- "Those who are not shocked when they first come across Prog theory cannot possibly have understood it." - Niels Bohr "If you think you understand Prog, you don't understand Prog." - Richard Feynman |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 12:54
------------- What? |
Posted By: ArturdeLara
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 13:02
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Alright then!!! I'll start adding more albums right now  ------------- "Those who are not shocked when they first come across Prog theory cannot possibly have understood it." - Niels Bohr "If you think you understand Prog, you don't understand Prog." - Richard Feynman |
Posted By: Fox On The Rocks
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 15:22
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Let's do it.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 15:25
Hold on a minute. First you bring me flowers and then we'll go from there  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: ArturdeLara
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 15:36
 Congratulations, you just made my day. ------------- "Those who are not shocked when they first come across Prog theory cannot possibly have understood it." - Niels Bohr "If you think you understand Prog, you don't understand Prog." - Richard Feynman |
Posted By: ArturdeLara
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 15:54
1 - Go to José Cid's PA page 2 - Move the mouse cursor to "Discography" 3 - Close your eyes 4 - Press the left mouse button 5 - Prepare for a bittersweet surprise 6 - Open your eyes Oh btw,  ------------- "Those who are not shocked when they first come across Prog theory cannot possibly have understood it." - Niels Bohr "If you think you understand Prog, you don't understand Prog." - Richard Feynman |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 16:01
Glad to be of service. BTW do you know of Quarteto 1111 - Jose Cid's prog band? Their second album is a real beauty  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: ArturdeLara
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 16:11
Yes, I haven't listened to their other albums yet, but i love that one. Actually, I bought it on CD about three weeks ago, so I had the chance to hear it properly, and it's f***ing gorgeous. With some beautiful lyrics as well (luckily enough i'm portuguese, so I can understand them ).------------- "Those who are not shocked when they first come across Prog theory cannot possibly have understood it." - Niels Bohr "If you think you understand Prog, you don't understand Prog." - Richard Feynman |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 16:17
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Well I'm not, but I still think Portuguese along with Italian are some of the most beautiful languages in the world. I especially adore the Brazilian version of Portuguese.
BTW we better wrap this up now, since this is a thread concerning Swans ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 17:13
 Nice work. Thank you.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Fox On The Rocks
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 21:41
Great point man. I mean, I don't want to get too fancy over this whole situation, in the end it's all good music of course. But take a band like Godspeed You! Black Emperor or Boredoms. These bands, much like Swans, are contemporary "progressive", experimental, innovative acts, but are not typically considered "Prog", but they happen to be on PA. Godspeed being very much similar to Swans, in my opinion. So if these bands are on here, why can't Swans? -------------
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Posted By: Fox On The Rocks
Date Posted: February 27 2013 at 21:42
That's fantastic.-------------
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Posted By: ArturdeLara
Date Posted: February 28 2013 at 15:28
Thanks I finished it today, it's practically complete now.------------- "Those who are not shocked when they first come across Prog theory cannot possibly have understood it." - Niels Bohr "If you think you understand Prog, you don't understand Prog." - Richard Feynman |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 28 2013 at 16:10
Thanks man! First of all, I am no expert on this, I don't believe anyone can be, this is all made up things we say about music in order to get at least some bearing on what we hear, so we can better navigate and locate. Personally, even if I seem like I speak against it in a lot of these threads, I am in favour of being inclusive, though not in the way of opening the door to Dire Straits and U2... I do however believe Future Sound of London should be here in prog electronic, and I think Swans should as well. Where? Prog related seems like a real opportunity, I mean these guys have been hugely inspirational all through the 80s and up to now, add to that flick flacking round in different genres - continuing to evolve and experiment. They certainly left a trail behind them, and I hear a lot of the avant bands that sound strangely influenced by them. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: ArturdeLara
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 05:31
Some people don't undestand that "experimental" or "avant-garde" does not necessarily mean "prog". Take Industrial, Noise, Free Jazz or even Post-Punk for example. U2, for instance, are an experimental rock band, but by no means Prog (Although Dire Straits would fit just fine in prog related IMO). However it is my understanding that Swans do incorporate prog traits in their sound. ------------- "Those who are not shocked when they first come across Prog theory cannot possibly have understood it." - Niels Bohr "If you think you understand Prog, you don't understand Prog." - Richard Feynman |
Posted By: Eria Tarka
Date Posted: March 02 2013 at 20:00
| ^They absolutely do, just like most of the Post Rock bands listed on PA. All I think is that if bands like Godspeed (like Max mentioned), or Sigur Ros are here, then why shouldn't Swans be here? I'd say Prog-Related without a doubt. |
Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: March 02 2013 at 20:28
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Per your signature, what are you willing to pay? ------------- -- Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth. |
Posted By: Eria Tarka
Date Posted: March 02 2013 at 20:49
let's just say, Holy Money
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 03 2013 at 01:55
That argument has never worked and it will never work. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Eria Tarka
Date Posted: March 03 2013 at 02:45
Okay, I understand. I guess Swans aren't PA's kind of "Progressive", that's fine. Doesn't mean I'll stop listening to them
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: March 03 2013 at 02:54
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I've heard a huge number of people describe Swans as prog, even before their put out The Seer which is their most progressive album by far. The only reason to even hold off on adding them is one of stubbornness. Swans are prog, most of their fans and many people who don't even enjoy the music would agree. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 03 2013 at 03:16
Don't you see what the problem really is? Classic example of the "fit sub genre first, to hell with whether or not it is prog" syndrome in this website. As for prog identity, the label of progressive rock was applied after the fact to several bands from back in the day so, no, whether the band or their fans regularly identify themselves as prog is not really a foolproof acid test (though the thinking increasingly seems to be that it is). I thought Bjork was an amazing addition but since then, the website is seemingly fighting shy of bold additions with greater determination. I mean, if you simply pass this off as, say, an Amon Duul II track, I am not sure how many people are going to vociferously cry this is not prog. Maybe change the date to 1972 also if that helps. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 03 2013 at 03:31
See above.
Nor should it. I've been listening to Swans for at least 26 years and would place them in my list of all time favourite bands ever without a second thought. At no time in those 26 years have I ever thought they were a Prog band but that has never stopped me listening to them. ------------- What? |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: March 03 2013 at 05:26
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^^ rogerthat, no this is not the problem As Dean said above, they were initially suggested to the PM team who has voted 'Move' and this is under evaluation in the post rock team (unless you hear metal in them, I don't) - in my opinion the most appropriate team on this website to decide based on what I have heard so far. Please be patient and post tracks from their discography that can help the team make an evaluation. If they are finally rejected (and I can understand why) then you can always suggest them for prog related, if a SC is willing to sponsor them. |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: March 03 2013 at 07:07
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I've said before (either here or in the Post team thread) that if Alex.ro were still around they might have had a chance. I would vote yes but am waiting for other members to vote. Nobody's sure who is still participating in the Post Rock team; two members haven't voted in a year or so and I don't know if the newest member is officially a member who can vote yet.
------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: Ady Cardiac
Date Posted: March 03 2013 at 07:15
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i love the Swans......they do have Prog type stuff going on in their sound.....but swans are quite a one off band anyways.....no matter what anyone says in this post wont put me off um one bit......The Seer was me fave album last year. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 03 2013 at 07:27
------------- What? |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: March 03 2013 at 10:02
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^I thought Tanner was the new member and Austin was only on the Math team.
------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: Einsetumadur
Date Posted: August 06 2013 at 06:28
After listening to "Seer" by The Swans I was plainly shocked not to find them in the ProgArchives. The earlier albums might be different, but *this* album fits into all prog categories. It's justifiable to reject some ProtoProg bands or to draw a clear line between indie and 'prog' - that's a matter of opinion. But I don't see any scope of interpretation in the prog relevance of "The Seer". I suppose I'll never ever understand the addition criteria here. ------------- All in all each man in all men |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: August 06 2013 at 07:01
Hi there Max Don't worry - you're not the only one who thinks The Seer is (some kind of) prog. Plus, reading your reviews, I think your definitions of 'prog' and all that seem quite well founded.............. and you've got just as much to say as the next guy around here. The problem however of including an act like Swans is finding out just exactly where to put them(if indeed collabs would support the notion). Personally I put Swans in the same pot as Current 93, and while they're actually here under prog folk, it took a long time for folks to evaluate them. Just for the record, I support the inclusion of Swans as well(Prog Related perhaps? One could always highlight an album like The Seer in a review and call it whatever one wishes to from post krautrock to psychedelic metal) ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Electrocuted
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 06:47
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Has anybody had progressive sex, post sex or proto sex to 'The Seer'? I personally couldn't find a difference in either, but I heard different intricacies on each listen/sex binge which makes it Prog for me. ------------- Progression doesn't happen unless it is new! |
Posted By: Einsetumadur
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 07:32
Thank you for the clarifications - it seemed to me the evaluation process stopped somewhere for no reason.To me the solution is quite simple - and goes along well with your opinion, too. Simply because the given criteria basically allow a clear decision! Prog Related:
Exactly the kind of place where bands could go which clearly belong to this website, but which no-one really knows where to put, isn't it? In my opinion these sentences are a perfect tool to solve problems such as these. Things would be so much easier if these categories were regarded as what they should be: 1. a means to split the admins'/collabs' maintenance work, 2. a way to simplify the band research for the PA readers. Imposing more meaning and relevance to these categories, frankly spoken, appears to me like futile pigeonholing. ------------- All in all each man in all men |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 07:52
That is precisely NOT what Note 7 means, it clearly states that it refers to the previous six critera and no other. Prog Related is a specific category with a specific connotation, it is NOT a dumping ground for bands that "no-one really knows where to put" - it is certainly NOT a place to put our/your favourite non-Prog bands. If the band is Prog they go in a Prog category and if they are not Prog they don't belong on this site unless we decide they deserve special mention in Prog Related due to some historical connection or relationship with Progressive Rock. ------------- What? |
Posted By: VOTOMS
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 11:06
| I think Swans deserves more attention here. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 13:37
Well, they have had four pages of this thread so far. Quite a lot of attention, methinks. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: pianoman
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 13:59
| I'd love to see them included, just because I want to see what all of you people write about them haha |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 14:03
What do you mean "you people" That's racist ;) ------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: pianoman
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 14:40
| I guess prog fans *are* kind of their own race...haha |
Posted By: Gordy
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 18:25
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"The Seer" is spectacular and inventive for sure, but I hope the PA powers that be take "Soundtracks for the Blind" into account, as it's a veritable post-rock album (its spiritual successor, Godspeed's "F#A#∞", followed a year later). |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: August 07 2013 at 19:35
| Without going into too much detail, Swans are still under evaluation for the Post-Rock Team. We recently gained a member and their say might have an effect on whether Swans gets added or not. They would be added to PR/MR based only on their last three albums. If they don't get added to PR/MR they will probably never get on PA. |
Posted By: Einsetumadur
Date Posted: August 08 2013 at 09:34
I'm sorry, but I'm afraid this is a definite misinterpretation of my posting. Firstly, it is slightly polemic to state that my interpretation is (more or less) the opposite of the meaning of the guidelines. The claim that my posting is one of those attempts to sneak a favorite band into the PA simply isn't true. I know the special focussing of the PR category, and I am interested in supporting a valid opinion which doesn't only consider one particular case, but also those cases which are yet to come. I explicitly recognized the need of drawing the line between 'favourite bands' and 'prog bands' in my previous posting, quoting the heavily-discussed examples of Proto-Prog and Indie/Alternative-vs.-Prog. Secondly, I mentioned clearly (maybe not clearly enough to have mentioned it explicitly) that the "no-one really knows where to put" point should suffice as the sole reason for neither a PR addition nor any other ProgArchives addition. If, however, the following three aspects apply to the situation at the very same time... 1. Recent magazines and notable reviews discuss the album/band in the context of progressive rock and acknowledge their prog content. (!) 2. The band has a considerable publicity. 3. The band is passed around from PA team to PA team for many months. ... I think that the PR category does fit very well. Of course, one can argue that Swans aren't important enough to the Progressive Rock genre as a whole. That's a justifiable opinion, for sure. (No-one would like to see the PR category filled with small semi-pro bands without a clear musical direction, of course!) And this is why I supported a more uncomplicated addition to the sub-teams in such a case. I just wouldn't appreciate the situation that a band which both experimented with a lot of genres and had a considerable prog output is rejected by the sub-teams due to 'genre discrepancies' and then rejected by the PR team due to 'lack of relevance for ProgRock as a whole'. I see that the band is currently under evaluation in PostRock, but otherwise I think that the following procedure could be reasonable: If there are doubts about the contribution of a band to 'prog rock history', if there's a consent about the prog content about a band, but a dissent about the exact genre, the band should be allowed to be added to any category which the serious music press attributes it to. (Swans are commonly attributed to post punk/post rock/noise/experimental/industrial/neo-folk - hence, post rock would be the place to go.) Passing a band from team evaluation to team evaluation because the genre names don't fit perfectly well appears to me like a fruitless and avoidable endeavour. (Perhaps that's how things by now are already sorted out 'backstage', but that's what I thought up while reading this thread today. )------------- All in all each man in all men |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: August 08 2013 at 17:04
Well that is not true. Swans were very quickly moved from the Post-Metal chart because - as I hope you will agree - there's not a scrap of metal in any of the two albums that might warrant them a place on the site (Soundtracks For The Blind and The Seer) So in fact they've only been in the hands of the post-rock team and it's a tough one to decide there - as amply stated in this thread. So as far as I know there's never been a dissent about which PA sub they fit, they fit in none at all, only - possibly - in post-rock, for only 2 out of the 13 something albums. |
Posted By: Einsetumadur
Date Posted: August 09 2013 at 12:44
Of course, yes.
Well, and that's the point I disagree with. I don't see decisions such as these as tough ones. The way I understand this thread there is a kind of dissent about where to put that band: either into PostRock, or into no category because there is none which matches the style of Swans. I think that this is just another facet of the problem. The more common case, of course, is the intersection area between post rock/metal/ambient/prog folk when bands fit into all of them/none of them. My point is that work, trouble and discussion could be reduced by: - generally regarding the categories less stiffly (as explained above) - generally maintaining the strictness of the inclusion criteria (!) - simply adding bands which 1. belong to this site, 2. have a considerable popularity, but which 3. no-one knows where to put into one category which fits, without thinking too much about the subjective question which genre the band identifies with most, which album is the most important one...etc. - creating a nice rule how to treat bands who recorded many albums which don't completely belong here but a few albums which clearly and definitely belong here. I don't think that such a procedure would result in the (of course, unfavorable(!)) situation that the PA are flooded with non-prog bands. It could, however, result in simpler solutions for the discussions about famous bands such as Motorpsycho/Trail of Dead/Swans etc. who 'converted' to progressive rock for some years, thus influencing the Prog genre due to the success/fame they established in earlier years. (To clarify things: I'm not informed about how the decisions are made here and watch the evaluation process from a certain 'distance'. As I said, it may be that some of the points I make describe the way how problems are already solved at the moment. Many of my aforementioned ideas may have proved senseless in the past. I've written them down nonetheless, just in order to use my 'neutral-bystander' point of view to write down some independent ideas, some of which might inspire someone to maybe reappraise certain routines - some of which might be useful, some of which might be improvable.) ------------- All in all each man in all men |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 09 2013 at 14:23
|
I don't see any benefit in changing how things are done to account for exceptions, in fact it could easily be argued that any changes should be made to exclude the exceptions rather than include them. We have discussed a catch-all category several times in the past and rejected the idea. The rule is "one prog album" - if accepted the entire discography is added regardless - this should not affect the evaluation, non prog albums are simply ignored for evalation purposes.
The indecision here is not whether they belong in Post Rock or some-other sub, but if they belong in PA or not at all - if the conclusion is that they belong then the particular sub should be obvious. If putting a band in a subgenre is so tenuous then there is a good case for not including them at all. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Einsetumadur
Date Posted: August 11 2013 at 08:44
|
Thank you for the explanation. I didn't know about the "one prog album" rule - that's a fair and adequate assessment.
------------- All in all each man in all men |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: August 11 2013 at 08:50
|
^Which is why it would be so much easier if we could use album tagging, thereby also getting rid of all the straight jazz albums that have nothing to do with this site. Then we could have The Seer listed as well as Histoire de Melody Nelson and Lonesome Crow. Works well on the metal n jazz archives. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: August 11 2013 at 11:54
^ It would also be so much easier if, when someone suggested a new band, we simply said ''add the band.'' 
Seriously though, David, are you able to describe the evaluation process on JMA and MMA? I've had a cursory look at both sites and can't find the info.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: August 11 2013 at 12:07
|
I can't say that I know the evaluation process on either site, sorry Chris. I just find the individual tagging far more helpful, than what we have on here. I realise it would entail a monstrous overhaul of the site, but I can't help but think that it in the end would spare us from a lot of these threads. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 11 2013 at 13:14
|
Album tagging would not stop these type of suggestion threads nor would it stop arguments and disagreements. There are many suggested bands that would not get added even with album tagging. The "one album" rule should be enough - if there is doubt based upon that one album then album tagging would not save it. If Lonesome Crow is the indisputable Krautrock alum that some people say it is then they should be added regardless, however, it is not indisputable and that's where the problems start.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: August 11 2013 at 14:27
In MMA if a band has released even just one clearly fitting metal album, then it's enough to earn their entry to the site. If their 25 other albums happen to be jazz or folk or anything, they can be labeled "non-metal", and they're (as of yet) unreviewable and unrateable. If they have covered many different metal genres during their career, they might have a few albums that are labeled "power metal", some that are "thrash metal" and so on. So MMA does not assign a band to a chosen subgenre, but the band's releases are tagged with the appropriate subgenres. ------------- http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=42652" rel="nofollow - It's on PA! 
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Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: August 11 2013 at 15:07
| Thanks, but the one clearly fitting metal album... how is that decision reached? Do teams vote, etc.? |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: August 11 2013 at 15:50
|
Dean is absolutely spot on when he says that album tagging will not stop debates or arguments about adding artists to the database. It would, however, stop the ridiculous situation we have that every single album by an added artist is de facto treated as a prog album. For no better example, I give you Miles Davis, who has 1940's albums available to review on a prog site, for heaven's sake. Of course, the real root of the trouble we have here is this silly and pedantic sub genre split we have, most of which bear no relation to reality whatsoever, except in our little world. I have, of course, gotten into more than a little trouble for pointing this out before ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Einsetumadur
Date Posted: August 11 2013 at 16:34
I'm gonna take this as a warning for myself. ------------- All in all each man in all men |
Posted By: pianoman
Date Posted: August 11 2013 at 17:43
|
Progressive music has grown beyond the current sub-categories that are set up on the site, and therefore some modern progressive bands are not included because they "don't belong" or don't fit into the neat categories as they are defined. In 50 years from now, the categories we have now may not describe 80% of the progressive music being created during that time.
So are we always going to be denying the innovative music, or are we going to keep the site dedicated to progressive music only defined from a certain moment in time (the way it seems to work now, for the most part). |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: August 11 2013 at 18:14
But... I think it covers most of the new progressive bands around. What other modern prog bands aren't being included? ------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: August 12 2013 at 01:30
Steve, imo the real root of the problem is we are simply adding far too many artists. http://www.progarchives.com/UnreviewedAlbums.asp" rel="nofollow - This is growing by the day. Soon we will need sub-subgenres. See also pianoman's post above.
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: August 12 2013 at 11:00
Not an unfair point, Chris. When I originally volunteered to be a member of the New Suggestions Team, I anticipated a little bit of fun and an interest in hitherto obscure bands. It turned out to be akin to a full time job, with piles of suggestions daily. My proper job and family simply did not allow the time necessary to do it justice. Pianoman's post is a good one, I agree. Progressive rock is evolving, and will continue to do so......this is one (amongst a few others) reason why I continue to hold the opinion that fewer sub genres might be better, rather than agonising over which sub genre is a good, or in many cases, convenient fit. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 12 2013 at 11:14
|
Not all innovative music is Progressive Rock... if it does not comfortably fit into the categories we've got (which are a wide and as catchall as they need to be when you actually look at what "Eclectic", "Heavy", "Crossover", "Prog Folk", "Progressive Metal" and "Jazz Rock/Fusion" are actually defined as here) then frankly, it's not Progressive Rock and we should never agonise over whether they should be here or whether we're missing out when we decide that: "Oh well, they don't fit, ho-hum... what's next on the pile? Brave The Vertigo... yet another bandcamp-band, is this Progressive Rock? Let's give it a spin and find out... " ------------- What? |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: August 12 2013 at 11:20
Post 30000 ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |