http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39948&KW=Sonata+Arctica" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39948&KW=Sonata+Arctica

 

two other threads (not counting this one came up in the search), but they weren't relevant.

 

This band has been rejected twice now - once following the release of "Unia" and once following the release of "Days Of Gray". Within http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73146" rel="nofollow - the guidelines they can be resubmitted if they have released new material since the last rejection, so the forthcoming release of their next album "Stones Grow Her Name" does mean they will be eligible for resubmission... HOWEVER, I suspect that this will be the third-strike and they'll go on the Stratovarius pile of bands perennially suggested and rejected.

 

Not every metal band needs to be included here and being "a bit progressive" isn't enough.

 

To be eligible for Prog Related they really do need to be either strongly influenced by Prog and in some-ways influential on Prog (Metal), or in some-ways influenced by Prog and in strongly influential on Prog (Metal). Power and Symphonic Metal bands rarely fall into either of those. Whatever the admission criteria was for Prog Related in the past no longer applies, so please don't use existing Prog Related artists as reasons for including this one.

1. I have no bias against Progressive Metal, never have. I bought Operation: Mindcrime when it was first released and have been a big Savatage fan since the the early 90s (and Jon Oliva's Pain naturally). I have seen Sonata Artica live, aswell as Children of Bodom, DragonForce, Edenbridge, PowerQuest and many of those other Power Metal bands that get suggested here from time to time. I haven't seen Stratovarious because I freely admit I don't like them. For six years I was the manager of a Gothic/Symphonic/Prog metal band that one day I hope will be admitted here - as long as they release a Prog Metal album that is, because the debut album I produced with them only had one Prog-like track so does not qualify. Dream Theatre are not my favourite Prog Metal band, though I do believe Scenes is probably the 3rd finest Prog Metal album ever made, but on the whole I prefer Pain Of Salvation, Ayreon and Riverside from the Prog Metal category, but my actual interest is more towards Opeth, My Dying Bride, Ihsahn, Ephel Duath, Monumentum, Orphaned Land, In The Woods, Green Carnation, The Gathering, Neurosis... So best not judge a book by it's cover eh?

 

2. The Admins do not decide who gets admitted here - we have genre teams composed of specialists (ie very knowledgeable fans - I don't believe anyone qualifies as a specialist here or anywhere else because there is always something that people don't know or some band that no one has ever heard of). These genre teams are composed of at least three people and they listen to as much of the representative albums as they practically can - some may even be fans with their own copies of these albums - they listen and vote according to what they hear and not through any preconception, what they read on Wikipedia or under pressure from people who really wish the band was here - a simple majority Yes vote and the band is accepted.

 

3. The evaluation of a band isn't done in public and it certainly isn't done with just the YouTube samples that people present as "exhibit a" in the suggestion thread, however the voting of the Prog Metal team can be seen by anyone who wants to look on the ProgFreak website.

 

4. Prog Related is a special category that the Admin team do decide who gets admitted - anyone is free to suggest a band for PR but only Special Collaborators can nominate bands to the Admin team, and that Special Collaborator must propose them and be prepared to add them into the database if successful. Our word is final on any decision - an artist may have all the credentials and may meet all the criteria for addition, but if we feel the band is not suitable for whatever reason, they won't get added.

 

5. Whether for Prog Metal or Prog Related, for any rejected band we do not have to justify our decision to anyone so I (we) don't have to tell you why those songs do or do not qualify.

lol

 

Meh, contrary to popular belief I don't go out to get people. If I see a misconception or a poor assumption about the PA or the Collabs who volunteer their time here I will comment on it, not to make enemies or provoke an argument, but to correct what I see as a simple misunderstanding. I have no axe to grind or hit list of people to target, but it does bother me a little that some people take it personally when I point out some of those misconceptions and false assumptions. Common ground has nothing to do with it, little (if anything) that has passed between us has been merely my opinion vs. yours, in fact I don't recall offering an opinion on anything we've discussed, if you want one I'm not the person to ask as I rarely comment on band suggestions any more - I'll happily leave that to Athanasios and the rest of the PMT - if a SC does decide to propose Sonata Arctica to Prog Related then I will have an opinion and will use that when casting my vote. In another thread you claimed an anti-PM bias here and I tried to explain that wasn't true, you then claimed I had an anti-PM bias, and again I have explained that isn't true.

 

Yeah, but "Truce"? - fine by me.

 

"Please, listen to the songs I posted without bias against Progressive Metal "

 

None of these quotes are persuasive arguments, indeed all they are likely to lead to is entrenchment. If I can offer some candid advice, constructive argument will always work better than suggestions of incompetence and the adopting of a superiority complex.

 

We have to respect the integrity of our teams when it comes to assessing bands. We now have a site dedicated to metal of all types, and I'm sure the band in question will be added there if they are not already.

 

On the question of the default period for the search engine, I can understand the request for this to be changed. Remember however that every search uses server resource. Searching all the threads every time will undoubtedly slow the site down. The majority of searches are probably looking for relatively recent threads, so the default is probably set about right. Perhaps it could be made clearer though that the period of the search can be changed. Best discussed in the Help us improve the site section though.

No.That can never happen here - vote first then add - there is no other way. Any SC adding a band without the other team members voting will be asked to leave.

aginor wrote: I speak now as a collab of MMA so im just curious couse when i find a band i know is doom metal i add them and later discuss it with team mebers if it is correct i doo nothing. If it is another genre i change what genre it belongs to, re-fassion the BIO and woalla, so far i have added mostly correct (I have a sixt sence for stoner/doom metal, and im in sludge team but seems to find most doom metal)

It is very easy on MMA - all you have to decide is whether a band is metal - and that's a peice of cake, so simple that even Lars Ulrich could do it. If you get it wrong and add a METAL band in the wrong METAL subgenre you can always move them to the correct METAL subgenre.

 

If you add Sonata Arctica to MMAs Progressive Metal and then later decide they are really Power Metal then you can move them to MMAs Power Metal subgenre.

 

The chances of you adding a band that is not METAL is very small. You also have the advantage of album tagging and the freedom to move artists between similar subgenres as their musical style changes over the years.

 

We do not have that luxury at PA - deciding whether an Artist is Prog or not is harder, it we add a band into Progressive Metal that we later decide is not Progressive we cannot move them to another subgenre, because there isn't one - if we add Sonata Arctica to Prog Metal, then decide they really are Power Metal after all we cannot move them because we don't have a Power Metal subgenre.

 

Prog Related is not for bands that are nearly-Prog, or for bands that a Prog fan might like. If that was the only criteria then we could add thousand of bands into Prog Related, and that would be ridiculous and silly.

 

However we do have a place like that for all nearly-Prog Metal artists, as Jonas has already said - it is called MMA.

 

 

 

Yeah one album will do, but we are talking one album that is beyond any doubt progressive. I don´t think any Sonata Arctica album falls under that catagory. Ask yourself if you would really characterize any of the albums in the band´s discography as progressive before calling it power metal?

 

As I have said repeatedly MMA is different - all MMA has to decide is which METAL subgenre a METAL band goes in - as long as the artist is METAL they are automatically in... ( http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/maudlin-of-the-well.aspx" rel="nofollow - even maudlin of the Well ) ... getting it wrong is not a portent of Armageddon. 

 

 

On PA we have to first decide whether a band is PROG then decide which PROG subgenre to put them in. If there is doubt over the PROG part then we are looking over our shoulders for the imminent arrival of the Four Horsemen.

 

On MMA the 50:50 dilemma is partially solved by Album tagging (M@X has promised us that if the MMA experiment worked), and as Colin said, by a note in the Biography (and that is used here too). The problem there is few people seem to read the Bio before throwing a hissy-fit over a band in the wrong subgenre. If an artist is playing Symphonic Power Metal then flip a coin.

 

On PA the 50:50 dilemma only happens when a PROG band falls between two PROG subgenres, and here there are several ways in which this is decided, some use the bands latest style, some use predominant style, some use the style that the band is known for, some use the style that is the most PROG - there is not hard and fast rule and it really is best played by ear. Where it can get messy is when people argue too deeply over the non-Prog styles - a Symphonic Prog band that includes Albanian Folk and Dixieland Jazz is neither Prog Folk nor are they Jazz Rock Fusion because Albanian Folk is not PF and Dixieland Jazz is not JR/F, and mixing those two non-Prog styles with Symphonic Prog does not necessarily make them Eclectic Prog or Crossover Prog if their predominant PROG style is Symphonic. However if an artist really is 50% Prog Folk and 50% Symphonic Prog then flipping a coin is as good a solution as any because the important question ... are they PROG‽ ... has already been answered so it does not matter which of the two subs they are in.

 

The point you are you are making is irelevant, they didn't release an album like that (so it is not "ironic" )

 

 

All I'm saying is they've been rejected twice already.

 

They can be reassessed by the Prog Metal Team because they have a new album that will be released tomorrow. If the PMT don't consider that album to be a Progressive Metal album then they will probably be rejected again.

 

If you don't like our system then stick with MMA.

I didn't laugh either.

Isn't the whole essence of "hypothetical" something that hasn't happened. If it had happened then yes we would add them, but it hasn't so we won't. If you find that idea amusing then you have understood nothing of what has been said here and we have nothing more to say.

Of course not.

Nor anything funny either

Here's a few ideas for you to pick over: