How does the prog factor affect your rating in PA?
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Topic: How does the prog factor affect your rating in PA?
Posted By: frippism
Subject: How does the prog factor affect your rating in PA?
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 13:44
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I really have no idea what section this is supposed to be in. I'm wondering... If you decide to review a certain album here on PA, and you consider the music as unrelated to progressive, does it factor into your rating? For me, personally, not really. The rating is really just my enjoyment of the album. What about you guys? ------------- There be dragons |
Replies:
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 14:02
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I put progressiveness or originality into the rating, i think it should have consideration. I don't think a masterpiece can be a stale, familiar, rehash of old ideas and bands. At least an obvious case of the situations told. Though i do understand that there are wonderful albums here that have a strong accessible flavor. Doesn't mean it deserves a lowered rating. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 14:05
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It says to do so in the guide to what stars mean. So yes. Otherwise it is a false rating not true to the site. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 14:07
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I don't think you get my question, my wording is probably confusing. Not progressive as a verb, but more as "does the music fit to be on PA?" ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 14:08
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well actually Snowdog got my point, Horizons didn't, but yeah... ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 14:12
In wish the wording was changed for the star rating system. For instance i really like....say....Invisible Touch....but even I have to admit that it is not an essentall prog album. So I must rate it lower. Well I don't "must" but you get my point I tghink. I probabvly could have thought oif a better example. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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frippism wrote:Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 14:17
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I will reply with a quote of my review of Chris Squier & Billy Sherwood's Conspiracy album:
As for the rating, we are faced with the problem of having to rate in a prog site an album
which is not meant to be a prog album. Judged as prog this would hardly deserve 1 or 2 stars, but it would be unfair to give it a rating suggesting that it is crap, because it is not. It is simply not meant to be a prog album, it is a crossover pop album and as that it's a pretty decent one. Squire himself made it clear that people should not take this album as a follower to "Fish Out of Water". I find it justified to give a low rating to albums such as Yes "Open Your Eyes" because after all Yes is supposed to be a prog band, but released as a side project and free from the Yes name things can take on a different perspective. At least this is quality pop-rock which does not insult the intelligence of the listener, and in the 21st century this is already quite something. So I prefer to give the necessary warning in the review and give it at least a dignifying 3 stars. So the conclusion is: yes the fact that this is a prog site must be taken into consideration but to a limited degree, if an album is good but not too prog, I probably deduct 1 star from what I would rate in a "non-prog-environment".
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 14:42
That is also a good question.  It's not a discussion on prog music but about our activity on the site, hence the section where I moved the thread.  As for the issue, IMO the rating has to reflect the quality of the music exclusively, while discussions about the stylistical aspects of the music should have their place in the review. |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 14:42
If it's on PA why question if it should?  ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 14:56
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I dislike the ratings criteria and would rather just rate an album on how much I like it. Prog genre qualities, plus being progressive in an adjectival sense, are to a considerable extent subjective measures. I don't like it when I see someone reviewing an album and saying it deserves a low score because it's not Prog or progressive -- and I might disagree with that Prog or progressive quotient evaluation, but I'm fine with people not liking it and thus rating it low, even if I love it, because of taste. I've suggested other ratings descriptions. I like something like, while recognising that it's subjective: 5 stars: Yowza! Sublime, mind-blowing, revelatory... Or better, something like: 5 stars: adoration! 4 stars: love it 3. like to really like 2. don't like 1. hate Anyway, such a Prog question wouldn't affect my rating, even for albums that I know aren't Prog by the standards of the categories here. Prog is to an extent in the ear of the behearer, and some purists will come down harder on music that doesn't fit the classic Prog rules, but is considered Prog by the standards of its category. And I would want to rate a pre-JRF Davis album lower just because it's not JRF -- still may be progressive, but not progressive jazz rock. Sorry if I'm going off on an aside, but I just have such problems with this: 
Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music(39%)
 
Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection(44%)
 Good, but non-essential (17%)
 Collectors/fans only (0%)
 Poor. Only for completionists (0%)
What is an excellent addition for any prog rock collection? I would prefer it if it said to any well-rounded collection, since there are going to be Prog umbrella styles that do no appeal to everyone. I would rather, if they have to keep it, to alter it to a masterpiece of its category, but that's still so subjective and depends on how familiar one is with the category. Some have said that Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock should not be in PA and are not Prog (I rate Prog for this site by how well specific, most representative albums of an artists fits the category, not the artist as a whole), so should those people rate Get Up With It and Crossings or other albums by them lowly because of their notions? No, they should rate the albums lower if they just don't like them. I would rather personal notions of what is Prog not factor in, as it does too much, I think, but I would extend that to not worrying at all if it is Prog when it comes to my rating (even if I know it's not Prog at all). Then there are all of the levels of progressiveness/ Prog by degree quotients to consider with an album.... |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 15:48
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Well yes but this is a prog site after all.
Newcomers to PA probably expect that by looking at PA's ratings and Top x Albums lists they can learn what are the greatest prog albums (that is, considered to be so by the rules of the voting of course).
Most of us may agree that albums such as Deep Purple's Made In Japan or Bowie's Ziggy Stardust are masterpieces, they are both in PA and unquestionably historical masterpiece albums with a huge number of us who know them and appreciate them, but if we all rate them as masterpieces in PA they may well get into the Top x Progressive Rock Albums ranking and that might be misleading to people who do not know much about music and simply want to learn about the best albums of really prog-rock.
I have no doubt calling Ziggy Stardust a masterpiece but I would have trouble seeing it within the Top 10 prog-rock albums of all time (I picked Ziggy just as an example but there are so many other masterpiece albums who do not belong to the title of "prog-rock masterpiece"). We should distinghish between "musical masterpiece" and "prog-rock masterpiece". |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 15:56
| ^ Proto Prog and Prog Related can't get into the general chart. ;) |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 16:08
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Good point, Gerinski even though Prog Related artists albums and Proto Prog ones are not included in the top chart. I thought Bowie was in Crossover Prog -- I think he should be for his Berlin trilogy albums in particular, but for other music as well. We could have had a variation on what Mike does at progfreak and have separate ratings for how good one find the music, the progressive approach, and Prog by style. An algorithm weighing these factors together would help to determine the placement on the charts. Bit late for that though. Ziggy Stardust is a masterpiece in my opinion, and I would have a problem with not rating it 5 stars if it was in Crossover. Perhaps certain albums could be kept off the top 100 list for the benefit of more casual visitors who don't know how things work -- Kind of Blue is a prime example of an album that does not belong there. Perhaps M@X could just change ithe title from being Top Prog Albums, to Most Popular Albums by Artists in Prog Categories, with an explanation that it is merely a popularity list and albums may be included that may not be Prog even though the artists do have prog category-worthy albums. |
Posted By: Junges
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 17:29
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I think it is very stupid to consider how progressive an album is and ignore the music. And that's what many people do. ------------- 
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Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 19:13
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Personally I would prefer reviews without ratings. My ratings are based on the site's guidelines. I gave some of my favourite albums only 2 stars precisely because I feel they do not deserve any more on a site dedicated to "progressive rock." I'm also in the camp that thinks some throw around their 5-stars too liberally.
------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 19:31
 ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 19:43
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Not much really, except when giving an album a 5-star rating, and I don't give very many of those. That said, I think there are always exceptions to the rule and have given a few 5-star ratings to albums that probably aren't progressive by most definitions of the term, but at the time I figured all of them were about as close to perfect as an album could be: Black Sabbath - Paranoid ------------- "Peace is the only battle worth waging." Albert Camus |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 19:44
It would be stiupid to do it in a site like Rateyourmusic, where you judge ań}lbums exclusively for their musical qualities. I love Rumors by Fleetwood Mac, in Rateyourmusic I nwould give 500 stars to that album, but in a ProgArchives full genre, we have other requirements. If Rumors was in ProgArchives I would have to go with 3 stars, because
So it's simple, adding non prog bands to FULL PROG GENRES forces me to rate it with les stars than what they deserve only for musical reasons, because being Prog is a requisite for a rating Luckily we have Prog related and Proto Prog that are not Prog categories and the requirements are different, that's why i could rate The Grand Illusion with 5 solid stars, because in my opinion it's an essential: non Prog album. ------------- 
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 20:41
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Read the reviews. The End.
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Junges
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 21:55
Well, maybe people should stop thinking about "oh this is prog, oh this is not prog". This is an infinite discussion. Some albums are prog for some people, some not for other people. Period. If the albums are here in progarchives, well, review them for their music quality. There are zillions "progressive" albums that I think they shouldn't be here and I am sure everyone can also list zillions of albums they don't think they should be here. Well, what can we do? Just say "this album is not prog but I love it, 5 stars". f**k if it says "masterpiece of PROGRESSIVE ROCK". Being more prog doesn't make an album better. It is like saying "oh I prefer this album over this one because it is more prog, so it deserves a better rating (even if the music quality isn't better)." Or: "oh I won't give it 5 stars because I don't agree this is symphonic, I think it is crossover or whatever". Doesn't it seem stupid? That's why I say: f**k the classification and rate the quality of music. But... that's just my opinion. Let people do whatever they think it is right.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 22:11
| I actually feel the same Junges, though considering PA"s complete discography policy which I accept, I couldn't think of many albums that I think shouldn't be here even if I know they are not Prog, Get your point, though, and much as I want to digress about having a prog album based category that operates similar to Various Artists where artists that had troubles getting in because of larger discography concerns raised, such as with Donald Byrd for Electric Byrd, William Sheller for Lux Aeterna and with Bob James, could have particular albums included rather than a band/ artist page with discography, I will resist the temptation. ;) |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 22:14
I believe you do the reviews without ratings honestly, but in a lot of cases this doesn't happen.
I believe that ratings without reviews should vanish, I don't trust them in most cases, I value more the reviews because the person supports the number with opinions. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 22:35
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If I trust that a rater's tastes are similar to my own, then I trust that his/her ratings would be more in-line with how I would feel about the albums than a reviewer with different tastes. Looking at his/her ratings page through his profile is generally a better use of my time than trawling through the reviews of someone who has different tastes than my own. I discovered a lot of great albums early on because I saw a couple of raters who I noticed had remarkably similar tastes to my own. That said I do love tro read some people's reviews such as Philippe. I just discovered a great Krautrock album today through youtube and went and checked to see if the artist was included and came upon his wonderful 5 star rated review of it. I rated a lot when M@X brought in that quick rating feature, and have written very few reviews. I don't expect people to look at my ratings; it's practically invisible unless they look at my profile, but it does give an idea of my tastes. I wouldn't expect people to trust it -- it's just a reflection of what I like, and if they like very similar music to me, then maybe they'd like it too. I like ratings because it gives me an idea of what people like. Sometimes I look to reviews for information, but when someone is asking for recommendations I will often look at their profile to get an idea of their tastes. Ratings tell me more about the person, usually, than the album, but that's okay. If I want reviews, I generally don't look to PA. I hardly ever use PA reviews to discover albums, but some do. I prefer getting recommendations in the forum or by kind members who contact me, or just googling my interests in music or going through youtube clips. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 22:38
Then why join Prog Archives and not a General Rock forum? Or lets add everything we like, because Prog could be anything, just stop calling the site Prog Archives.
That's your perspective, not mine neither what the guidelines say, even if I liked them I wouldn't rate ABACAB, Big Generator or A La Carte as an essential masterpiece of Prog, simply because it's not Prog. I prefer to say i love this album but I can't rate it with 5 stars because it's not an essential masterpiece of Prog, that why I fought so hard to block Th Who, because they are one of my favorite bans and I don't want to review them from a Prog perspective
Nobody says that, I prefer Rumors, Bat Out of Hell, No Need to Argue (Cramberries), Joshua's Tree and of course Who's Next more than most Prog albums...But I would never say they are essential masterpieces of prog, because they are not Prog, as simple as that. And that argument "More Prog than X" is as absurd as "If X is here, why not Y", if an album is Prog, imust be rated as a Prog album in Prog Archives, I don't agree with the concept of level of progressiveness. BTW: I don't like Larks Tongues in Aspic that for many is the quintessential Prog album, neither the abusive complexity oif Gentle Giant, that's only taste. There are Great, good average and terrible Prog albums, the genre doesn't make them good, but to say something is Prog when it isn't, is not accurate
That would be absurd, no matter what the subgenre, if a Prog album is essential, I would rate it with 5 stars, but I would also say I don't believe it's Symphonic. I rated a couple of Santana albums very high, and I believe they should not be in Jazz Rock Fusion.
Exactly, then don't qualify their opinions as stupid. Iván
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 04 2012 at 23:36
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As the evaluation process at PA is thorough and well-organized, the likelihood, or perhaps fear, of an artist not being Prog - barring Proto and PR - is not only unlikely but somewhat irrational. So in a way, the question is irrelevant. Further, the rating guidelines don't ask about the degree of Prog elements, but rather one's view of the quality of said Prog. In other words it's a given. This doesn't mean one may not observe degrees of Prog or a 'Prog approach' in an artist's work, but it does mean the reviewer should be liberated from a need to prove or qualify the music they're reviewing is in fact Prog. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 05 2012 at 02:11
Exactly, if in our view an albums not Prog, would be dishonest to rate it as a masterpiece of Progressive Rock (Except in the cases of Prog related and Proto Prog). Iván . -------------
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