They were a group of talented musicians writing songs for the mainstream to make pots of cash - like they needed it!

I think they were little more than a cynical project. I dont think they made partiulaly bad pop music, but when you know what they were capable of, its hard to take their music seriously. They were very clever; reeling proggers in with those saucy Roger Dean covers, only to get home and find that they had purchased something that sounded like a cross between Howard Jones and REO Speedwagon

barbs wrote: When you listen to them it sounds like they were deliberately trying to construct the music to suit a popular mainstream market and thats never going to come off good for anyone who listens to music on this site. they did have some success in those markets to so their strategy worked to that degree.

Yes, that would be my question. Having heard nothing but the FM radio hits (and thinking them pretty bland), do they succeed in writing some interesting stuff given their self-imposed constraints? And if not, what is weak about it? I mean, pop can be fantastic, so where do they fall down?

From a pop perspective only the first album was good, even brilliant. After that they lost both their pop-appeal, as their progressive roots, which was still present in their debut album.

Had they like Genesis succeeded with more than one album, I could respect that, but they sold out to make as much money as they would have if they stopped with Asia after the debut, and went back to progresive rock.

Perhaps they just wanted to show everyone they could make popular music if they so chose. Perhaops after the 1st lp, music moved into a direction that pop wise they couldn't relate to and lost touch with the youth. They weren't getting younger after all....

or maybe they were just a bunch of sellouts who really weren't as talented as we would have liked to think.

gdub411 wrote: Perhaps they just wanted to show everyone they could make popular music if they so chose. Perhaops after the 1st lp, music moved into a direction that pop wise they couldn't relate to and lost touch with the youth. They weren't getting younger after all.... or maybe they were just a bunch of sellouts who really weren't as talented as we would have liked to think.

the latter without doubt.

tuxon wrote: From a pop perspective only the first album was good, even brilliant. After that they lost both their pop-appeal, as their progressive roots, which was still present in their debut album.   Had they like Genesis succeeded with more than one album, I could respect that, but they sold out to make as much money as they would have if they stopped with Asia after the debut, and went back to progresive rock.

I agree

Asia is that band from the song Heat of the moment, isn''t it?

Hmmmm, they are very low on my list "still to listening". Just above Engelbert Humperdinck.

Snow Dog wrote:   Later I bought Aqua which isn't to bad. I have no problem enjoying Prog and other styles. Asia are kinda Proggy AOR very well done!

Aqua from Barby Girl?

Under wrote: Asia is that band from the song Heat of the moment, isn''t it? Hmmmm, they are very low on my list "still to listening". Just above Engelbert Humperdinck. Snow Dog wrote:   Later I bought Aqua which isn't to bad. I have no problem enjoying Prog and other styles. Asia are kinda Proggy AOR very well done!    Aqua from Barby Girl?

No its Barbie Girl from Aqua!  Yes thats the one!

I must admit I don't listen to Asia anymore either!

Prog in 1980's was almost non-existent & there was very little money to be made from it. Remember record labels speak & the bands have to listen. Geffen wanted a multi-selling album with hit singles & Asia delivered. Whether you like it or not is your oppinion but the first album is great IMHO. They only went on to make two more decent albums, i.e. Aqua & Archiva 2.

Let's also remember that many bands were guilty of taking a more radio freindly route, i.e. Journey, REO Speedwagon, Kansas & Styx to name a few. These bands late 70's & early 80's albums are a far cry from their earlier progressive beginnings, so it's totally unfair to single out Asia

The 1st Asia album, I tell the truth: I still love that one. No progressive rock, not real pop, but somewhere in between. I really hate the 2nd one, and Asia without Wetton is maybe even worse.

I read in an old interview with John Wetton that Asia was a project of 4 people who really wanted to make good music. The businessmen started to interfere, though. At least, that's how I remember it. Too much dollarsigns in some people's eyes.

Asia were originally going to be a five piece with Trvor Rabin as lead singer & secong guitarist!

flowerchild wrote: Money

Obviously

Blacksword wrote: They were a group of talented musicians writing songs for the mainstream to make pots of cash - like they needed it! I think they were little more than a cynical project. I dont think they made partiulaly bad pop music, but when you know what they were capable of, its hard to take their music seriously. They were very clever; reeling proggers in with those saucy Roger Dean covers, only to get home and find that they had purchased something that sounded like a cross between Howard Jones and REO Speedwagon

 ^ They did that to me!   I fell for the trap!

NetsNJFan wrote: cause it was 1982 mainly.....and Howe and Palmer were not given nearly enough influence

Actually this was where Palmer wanted to go at the time ...sadly

I think I must be the only person on this site who actually liked 'Alpha'...their second album; always have and always will.  Ok, 'Don't Cry' needed taking outside and shooting, and you have to accept it for what it is - AOR - but I think there's some great stuff on it.

And I don't think they are a 'damn sight better than Boston'.. I really liked 'Walk On' especially...there you go, that's my AOR side coming out now..I'd better shut up before Maani excludes me!

spectral wrote: Given their pedigree, why were they crap?

If you want the real reason, it's because Asia from minute one was a purely corporate creation, designed to maximize shareholder value. And thus Asia was basically the early 80s equivalent of The Monkees.

Why? David Geffen, head of Geffen Records, wanted to put together a prog supergroup. That's how Asia began. He asked John Kalodner to recruit people for this supergroup. This is how The Monkees were formed. First conceive the idea, then audition members.

Lots of people were in and out before the final line up was settled, ranging from Trevor Rabin to Simon Phillips. Even Rick Wakeman was approached, but he wisely declined. So you have the record company building a band.

The band's name came from manager Brian Lane, not the band. Why Asia? Because the fewer the letters, the bigger the name is on posters, and the better marketing visibility.

Then Geffen tapped Mike Stone as producer. What was Stone's background?

Journey!!! The horrible 70s/80s AOR power balladeers. So..., you're going to get music that sounds like Journey.

So, based on the above, Asia was a band reverse engineered from the first minute by this entertainment billionaire:

Would you trust this man to provide your prog???

He made a lot of money off their first album. But when Asia's second album tanked, the record label demanded a "management shake up" AND FIRED JOHN WETTON!!!. That's right, GEFFEN RECORDS FIRED JOHN WETTON FROM ASIA!!!

Then Geffen realized that since Wetton was the lead singer and primary songwriter, maybe he killed the goose that laid the golden egg. Geffen tired to lure back Wetton, but Wetton would only come back if Howe left. SO THE RECORD COMPANY FORCED OUT HOWE. When the third album tanked, Geffen dropped Asia. A bad investment, a write off.

Does this sound like prog or Wall Street Finance?

raindance wrote: Asia were originally going to be a five piece with Trvor Rabin as lead singer & secong guitarist!

Correction, co-lead singer, a la the Everly Brothers. I'm not making this up.

kirklott wrote: raindance wrote: Asia were originally going to be a five piece with Trvor Rabin as lead singer & secong guitarist! Correction, co-lead singer, a la the Everly Brothers. I'm not making this up.

could they get any f*cking worse?  COULD THEY? 

The band ASIA wasn`t crap. It was simply that times changed, and Prog Rock lost popularity among the general public and among some Prog musicians who wanted to play new music for a change, or simply to adapt and survive in a new music business structure.

In the book called "Pete Frame`s Complete Rock Family Trees", Wetton is quoted several times in Frame`s Family Tree for Asia, saying things like these (more or less as I remember) :

"In the band U.K., Eddie Jobson and me started having different views about the musical direction of the band (in 1979). He wanted a more Prog style in the 70s sense, with long songs, while I favoured straight short songs. So, after the last tour we did, we decided to take a 6 months break. I recorded my first solo album in 1980, and he joined Jethro Tull, a funny thing after saying that he wanted to be more Progressive! We never talked or saw each other after the last gig we played. Then, in late 1980, I decided to change management, from E.G. management to Brian Lane, who recently had split with YES. So, we thought about forming a new band. We went to the U.S. and we found that Geffen was very interested in our ideas for a new band. We returned to England, and then Brian introduced Steve Howe to me. Steve and me started to write songs together for a new band. Later, I approached Carl Palmer, because me and him years before talked about playing together some day. Geoff Downes left The Buggles while they were recording their second album to join us. So, after that, we felt like a band and we liked to play together. So, Asia was born".

Clearly, at least for me, Wetton wanted to write and to  play Pop-Rock songs, even when he was in the band "U.K.". IMO, it was valid. He was tired of Prog Rock. He wanted to be more popular and to have hits and to earn more money. What`s wrong with that when making a living as a musician is very hard for many people? I think that the main "guilty" people of Asia`s fall in 1983 were David Geffen, Brian Lane and the famous "King of A&R", John Kalodner. The musicians lost control of their own band, and the "guilty" people became "Dictators" and they spoiled a good Pop-Prog Rock band in their search for their billionaire dreams. Due to the pressures of the management, the record label and the A&R man, frictions started to deteriorate personal relationships in the band, so Howe  and Wetton in particular were not in very friendly terms. When their second album wasn`t  as successful as their first, the Dictators made a "scapegoat" of Wetton and they fired him,  the main founder of the band! We he came back, he and Howe couldn`t work together anymore, so Howe left the band, and in 1985 they recorded their third album with a new guitarist, but the album wasn`t successful and they didn`t tour to promote it. Asia never has been as successful as with their original line-up. Their original line-up was the best, IMO.

Trevor Rabin auditioned for Asia, but it was until the original line-up was formed. Rabin said that he didn`t like to join Asia as he rehearsed one day with them and that he felt that he didn`t fit in the band.

About Foreigner:

Mick Jones and Gary Wright reformed Spooky Tooth after Jones played in Wright`s solo albums. It was in 1973. They were joined by Mike Harrison, an original member of Spooky Tooth. After recording 2 studio albums, the band (without Harrison, who left the band again) went to live to the U.S. in 1974 and they recorded a last Spooky Tooth studio album. Then they split. Jones didn`t return to England, he stayed in the U.S., working with guitarist Leslie West and with a small label as  a A&R man. After his job was finished with the Leslie West Band in 1976, he wanted to form a new band. So, he formed Foreigner with Ian McDonald (ex-King Crimson). He also wanted to have hits and to earn more money. What`s wrong with that?

About Journey:

They started as a Prog band. They released 3 unsuccessful albums, so they also wanted to have hits and to earn more money, so they changed their style and they found singer Steve Perry and they became very successful. What`s wrong with that?

I like Foreigner, Asia and Journey. I also like Prog Rock. There is music for everybody. And that music is also valid. What`s wrong with that?

Guillermo pretty much summed it up, but one of the aspects that played a role IMO was.

The first album was a huge success, The reason for that success was thought to be the pop song part, the easier structures, simpler melodies, so for their next album, to copy that succes they made it even more simpler and smoother. They never fully realised that it was the combination of simpler melodies and structure, combined with the progressive musicianship.

Genesis even in their most commercial attempts never lost their feel for good musicianship, and quality, while Asia, threw all quality out in favor of an even more accesible sound.

I think that albums like 90125, Genesis albums, Asia's debut, in a way the Rush albums where very succesful because it was pop (Rush case Rock) with an extra quality. Rush became even better, for Yes it was a passing phase, Genesis became very popular, but Asia wasted it on simplicity. later albums saw Asia returning to more progressive venue's but they never made anything remotly as interesting as their debut album.

Come to think of it, I can't think of any of the main prog bands from the 70's that didn't go the more radio freindlier route in the 80's

The only exception I can think of is King Crimson but I don't think Fripp had it in him to write melodic tunes anyway!

Guillermo wrote:  It was simply that times changed, and Prog Rock lost popularity among the general public and among some Prog musicians who wanted to play new music for a change, or simply to adapt and survive in a new music business structure.

Guillermo, isn't it pretty ironic that bands that have stayed closer to their prog roots, like Yes, still earn a living at it and play larger venues, whereas the Faustian sell-outs like Asia can barely scrape together 30 to 40 people at Charlie's Chowder Shack in Baltimore.

Genesis sold out, and it killed their career - the last time they planned a US tour, they cancelled it due to lack of ticket sales and then broke up. And do you know what Genesis studio albums sell best today? The Gabriel/Hackett era, NOT the Collins-era. Go check out sales ranks on Amazon: Trick of the Tail, Selling England By the Pound, Lamb and Foxtrot, in that order.

And John Wetton, who for a quarter century has focused on writing hits, is probably at a soup kitchen in London as I write this.

So your theory is wrong. Do what you love, and the money will follow.

Shenanigans!.....Asia.....shinanigans! 

They I understand about Asia was a side project by all senior proggers and played togetjer with a music format different than their original band. It's like Hackett and Howe formed GTR. So, I did not expect them to play prog. That's why I enjoy their first 3 albums - for a change only. But I like their performance video ASIA in ASIA where Greg Lake fetured the vocal and bass replacing Wetton who could not make it for the show. I enjoy the laser disc of this show - I even recorded the sound into CDr for listening pleasure. I like the interlude part at Open Your Eyes.

I like all ASIA albuns from the classic lineup and also the 3rd.

Few days ago bought the Wetton/Downes project  "Icon"; any comments on this one?

Well, Wetton had had a mind to make a pop-oriented record for a while. That's pretty much why UK broke up; Jobson and Wetton wanted pop, Bruford and Holdsworth wanted fusion/prog.

But when you combine prog and pop... that's when disasters arise.

Biggles wrote: Well, Wetton had had a mind to make a pop-oriented record for a while. That's pretty much why UK broke up; Jobson and Wetton wanted pop, Bruford and Holdsworth wanted fusion/prog. But when you combine prog and pop... that's when disasters arise.

*see "Asia"......

And John Wetton, who for a quarter century has focused on writing hits, is probably at a soup kitchen in London as I write this. So your theory is wrong. Do what you love, and the money will follow.

I bet your way off base with this remark. Writing a hit single that was massive worldwide must have set Wetton up financially for life. Just about every rock compilation released either includes 'Heat Of The Moment' or 'Only Time Will Tell'. I also still hear these songs played on the radio on an almost daily basis. Also, didn't the Simpsons use 'Heat Of The Moment' in an episode. I also know it's been used in quite a few film soundtracks. I bet Wetton is living a life of luxury on royalties alone just on the back of 'Heat Of The Moment'.

raindance wrote: And John Wetton, who for a quarter century has focused on writing hits, is probably at a soup kitchen in London as I write this. So your theory is wrong. Do what you love, and the money will follow. I bet Wetton is living a life of luxury on loyalties alone just on the back of 'Heat Of The Moment'.

I doubt it.If he had written My Way or Yesterday that might be different though

Moogtron III wrote: The 1st Asia album, I tell the truth: I still love that one. No progressive rock, not real pop, but somewhere in between. I really hate the 2nd one, and Asia without Wetton is maybe even worse. I read in an old interview with John Wetton that Asia was a project of 4 people who really wanted to make good music. The businessmen started to interfere, though. At least, that's how I remember it. Too much dollarsigns in some people's eyes.

Totally agree, The first album only is quite good, even if it's not really progressive music. I just can say that i saw them on stage in October 1982, and it was great !

Well, it is only "take it or leave it".

I like the first two albums by Asia, The third is not so bad, but without Steve Howe...it wasn`t the same.

About the cancelation of the last tour of Genesis 1997-98: the "Calling all stations" album was successful in Europe, but not in the U.S. In the U.S., they only reached the #54 in the charts. Without Collins, and with a new album which was "dark" from start to finish, without "real" singles ("Congo" and the video for this song were also "dark"), they were finished, at least for the U.S. radio. But Collins still has some success as soloist, still reaching in the U.S. the top 30 (and not all his music as soloist is "bad", IMO).

I want to say again that not everything in music is Prog. Some bands like Asia in 1982-85 still had quality, because they had in the line-up very good musicians. They became Pop, but with good quality. Other Prog bands became Pop, and not everybody liked their new style. For me, Marillion is an example. I still like their "Seasons End" album and some songs for "Holidays in Eden", but...I lost interest in their new music since 1992. I still liked Genesis being Pop in the 80s-90s, but when Collins left, they became "dark" and boring, but despite that they also had 3-4 good songs in "Calling All Stations".

I understand that it could be very boring to play "I Know What I Like" and "Roundabout" tour after tour after 25 years or more of being in a band. Musicians need changes. If the old Prog  Fans don`t like their "changes", it`s O.K. Those musicians are going to have new and old fans, anyway. One has the choice to listen or not to listen to them or to buy or not their Pop albums.

A last explanation about why I think that some very criticized bands are good:

-Foreigner:the original line-up had two very good keyboard players: Al Greenwood and Ian McDonald (McDonald also played guitar, flute and sax, and also was the co-producer of their 3 first albums). Dennis Elliot, the original drummer, was very good. Mick Jones and Lou Gramm were good composers.Jones is also a very good guitarist. Gramm is a great singer. A recommendation:listen to their "Classic Hits Live" (AKA "Best of  Foreigner Live")  album. It has very good songs recorded live between 1977 and 1985. Particularly Gramm "shines" in this album.

-Journey:all were very good musicians (the line-up of Neal Schon, Steve Perry, Jonathan Cain, Steve Smith and Ross Valory). Their "Escape" album is very good. "Frontiers" is also very good. Schon is a very good lead guitarist. Perry was one of those singers with an unique voice. Yes, some of their songs were very commercial. But others were very good. By the way,  producer Mike Stone was one of the producers of their most successful albums ("Escape" and "Frontiers"). Stone was also Asia´s producer between 1982 and 1983. 

The original Asia:Wetton was a very good singer, one of the best. All were very good musicians. I think that Steve Howe recorded some of his best guitar work when he was in Asia. Listen to him particularly in: "Sole Survivor", "Cutting It Fine", "Eye to Eye", "Open Your Eyes", "Midnight Sun", "Heat of the Moment", "Time Again", "The Heat Goes On". Great guitars, IMO.

richardh wrote: The Asia bashing on this thread is totally out of order!

Nonsense.

Fine, so Asia wanted to maximize income and boost their financial protfolio. That was their perogative.

But couldn't they have thrown their loyal old fans a bone, like one - at least one - 10-minute epic? They could have had 7 pop songs, and 1 true prog track for the old fans. But they didn't, cause they knew we would be there with wallets open no matter what.

I still remember the painful disappointment. I had told friends for months about this upcoming incredible band, Asia. I ran out the day the album came out. Great Roger Dean cover! I invited over all my friends for a listening party. And from the opening chords of Heat of the Moment, I knew something was horribly, horribly wrong. My friends left the party early, one by one, shaking their heads. I was humiliated.

I had already bought tickets for three different concerts on Asia's first two tour, because they went on sale before the album came out. I immediately dumped tickets for two of the shows, and went to one - in San Diego - hoping they would play some old tracks. No dice. Instead they played a new track "The Smile Has Left Your Eyes" which was even worse and sounded like BARRY MANILOW!!!

The bashing is very very much in order. And they got what they deserved. Wetton and Downes were ruined, Palmer enjoyed a few minutes back on the world stage, and only Howe got out alive - and he's lucky.

Gatot wrote:  But I like their performance video ASIA in ASIA where Greg Lake fetured the vocal and bass replacing Wetton who could not make it for the show.

Couldn't make it to the show??? Wetton was FIRED by the record company!!!

Biggles wrote: Well, Wetton had had a mind to make a pop-oriented record for a while. That's pretty much why UK broke up; Jobson and Wetton wanted pop, Bruford and Holdsworth wanted fusion/prog.

That's an odd and clearly incorrect comment. UK's second album - after Bruford and Holdsworth left - was proggier than the first. Longer tracks, more soloing, more extreme musicianship.

UK broke up because of Jobson and Wetton didn't get along.

raindance wrote: I bet your way off base with this remark. Writing a hit single that was massive worldwide must have set Wetton up financially for life. Just about every rock compilation released either includes 'Heat Of The Moment' or 'Only Time Will Tell'. I also still hear these songs played on the radio on an almost daily basis. Also, didn't the Simpsons use 'Heat Of The Moment' in an episode. I also know it's been used in quite a few film soundtracks. I bet Wetton is living a life of luxury on royalties alone just on the back of 'Heat Of The Moment'.

No, you're probably wrong. After a hit, musicians usually live high on the hog, and when their career declines, they can't sustain their lifestyle. So they often sell off their publishing catalogue. I'll bet you money Wetton/Downes did this in the second half of the 80s.

I bet Wetton and Downes today live more modestly than many members of this forum. I mean, are you aware that a year or two ago Downes and his new Asia partner, John Payne, did a living room tour of the USA? If you wrote a modest check, they would play anywhere you wanted, like at your church or picnic or the opening of a used car dealership.

Guillermo wrote: About the cancelation of the last tour of Genesis 1997-98: the "Calling all stations" album was successful in Europe, but not in the U.S. In the U.S., they only reached the #54 in the charts. Without Collins, and with a new album which was "dark" from start to finish, without "real" singles ("Congo" and the video for this song were also "dark"), they were finished, at least for the U.S. radio.

This had nothing to do with the album being dark, but rather the fact that Genesis had totally lost their fan base: the scr*wed over their old fans, and their new fans, well they were busy picking up kids from soccer games and couldn't care less.

Yes, in contrast, at least made some proggy efforts like ABWH, Talk, Keys, etc., and even had proggy tracks like "I'm Running" on bad albums like Big Generator.

Genesis in contrast just went pure pop, and they completely lost their 70s audience. And that's what Asia did from minute one. I think they just shocked so many fans, and immediately lost any of their fans from their 70s bands.

I mean, did you know Asia is touring Europe, Latin America and the USA this year? Did you know? Do you care? No, nobody knows because the loyalty isn't there. And they are playing in places like barbeque restaurants. I'm not kidding.

In contrast, I'm flying to FOUR of the Howe/Squire/White concerts because I'm loyal.

If Yes had gone pure pop, and Asia or Genesis loyal to their old fans, it would be the other way around.

kirklott wrote: Guillermo wrote: About the cancelation of the last tour of Genesis 1997-98: the "Calling all stations" album was successful in Europe, but not in the U.S. In the U.S., they only reached the #54 in the charts. Without Collins, and with a new album which was "dark" from start to finish, without "real" singles ("Congo" and the video for this song were also "dark"), they were finished, at least for the U.S. radio. This had nothing to do with the album being dark, but rather the fact that Genesis had totally lost their fan base: the scr*wed over their old fans, and their new fans, well they were busy picking up kids from soccer games and couldn't care less. Yes, in contrast, at least made some proggy efforts like ABWH, Talk, Keys, etc., and even had proggy tracks like "I'm Running" on bad albums like Big Generator. Genesis in contrast just went pure pop, and they completely lost their 70s audience. And that's what Asia did from minute one. I think they just shocked so many fans, and immediately lost any of their fans from their 70s bands. I mean, did you know Asia is touring Europe, Latin America and the USA this year? Did you know? Do you care? No, nobody knows because the loyalty isn't there. And they are playing in places like barbeque restaurants. I'm not kidding. In contrast, I'm flying to FOUR of the Howe/Squire/White concerts because I'm loyal. If Yes had gone pure pop, and Asia or Genesis loyal to their old fans, it would be the other way around.

"Take it or leave it". Musicians need changes. They need to survive. Their job is making music. I liked King Crimson`s albums from 1969 until 1974. I bought "Beat", I was disappointed,so after that  I never bought their new albums with Adrian Belew. YES became commercial, I liked thier Pop albums, so I bought them. Genesis became commercial, I liked some of their albums, so I carried on buying them. It`s just personal taste.

I think that Genesis lost their fans in the U.S. because many years passed without releasing new albums (between 1992 and 1997, a long time!), and also because Collins, who was very popular in the U.S., left the band. Yes, there was also a 5 year hiatus between "Invisible Touch" and "We Can`t  Dance", but the members of Genesis released during that time solo projects which were successful. Collins still has some success in the U.S. as soloist.  Ray Wilson wasn`t liked as the new singer. The new album was weak, "Dark", monotonous, depressing. Also times changed: the mid 90s music was very different to the 80s music.

YES fully returned to the Prog style in 1995 when Wakeman and Howe rejoined the band. "Talk" was a mixture of Pop with Prog, particularly in the "Talk" long song. But this album wasn`t as successful as the other albums in which Trevor Rabin participated.

Yes, I know that Asia came to my country. I wasn`t interested to see them in concert. I`m not interested in the Downes/Payne & Co. line-ups. They should have changed the name  of the band since the start of the "Downes/Payne band".

I went to see YES playing concerts 3 times here in my country. In one of those concerts (1999), they only had the auditorium in  half of the capacity. They were not promoted for that concert. I knew about that concert 10 days before.

fingers wrote: BTW, I think Carl's drumming took a really bad downhill turn from the time he joined Asia on. The 2nd stint with ELP was nothing to write home about, and I remember being particularly disappointed after seeing the Black Moon tour.   Carl played out of time, and Emo was slopply because he was obviously drunk on stage.

Well I saw them at The Bristol Colston Hall on the Black Moon tour and they were as tight as I could have hoped for,no probs at all and Emo was certainly not drunk.

If the question had been "why didn't Asia make prog albums", that would have been a reasonable question.

The one thing they were not though was "crap". The band members were all highly talented, and while with Asia they made high quality music in the style they chose to adopt. It is of course a matter of opinion as to whether or not you enjoy that music.

Rob The Good wrote: To be honest, I actually quite like Asia. But, I've never ever considered them a Prog band. In fact, when listening to them, what they COULD have done doesn't really bother me. Their stuff is certainly better than what Genesis were turning out at the time. Prog was an endangered species at this time! (Marillion kept it going though)

..there were other eighties prog bands other than Marillion. (and don't say 'who then'? )

..and don't forget Rush.

Geffen tired to lure back Wetton, but Wetton would only come back if Howe left.

Really? Why is that?

Salmacis72 wrote: Geffen tired to lure back Wetton, but Wetton would only come back if Howe left. Really? Why is that?

Howe and Wetton didn't get along. They were the first two in the band, and got along well at first, but later a power struggle emerged between the two as to who was the group's leader. Howe had the stronger resume, but Wetton wrote more of Asia's hits.

Wetton told Geffen Records he would return to Asia (after Alpha, before Astra) on the condition that Howe left.

You'll note the orignal Asia has gotten back together - or tried - at least three times (late 80s, early 90s, late 90s), but only Downes-Palmer-Wetton, always without Howe.

kirklott wrote: Salmacis72 wrote: Geffen tired to lure back Wetton, but Wetton would only come back if Howe left. Really? Why is that? Howe and Wetton didn't get along. They were the first two in the band, and got along well at first, but later a power struggle emerged between the two as to who was the group's leader. Howe had the stronger resume, but Wetton wrote more of Asia's hits. Wetton told Geffen Records he would return to Asia (after Alpha, before Astra) on the condition that Howe left. You'll note the orignal Asia has gotten back together - or tried - at least three times (late 80s, early 90s, late 90s), but only Downes-Palmer-Wetton, always without Howe.

In Asia`s official website, I remember that there is/was a section dedicated to their official autobiographical book. They quote Howe saying about his departure of Asia: "John returned to the band, and we started to rehearse new songs for a new album. Everything was going right...but out of the blue, he said to me that he didn`t want to work with me again. So I left the band".

Wetton is also quoted, saying: "We were in Asia. Me, the protagonist, and Steve, the antagonist".

i like asia very much! at least the 3 first albums! I was even not 18 years old when it began! I was partly raised with their very catchy tracks; they are not extremely progressive, but the intelligent listener will understand that the objective was to be more catchy and accessible than progressive, and they pretty well succeeded!

Geoff downes's keyboards on the 3rd album are really outstanding!

greenback wrote: Geoff downes's keyboards on the 3rd album are really outstanding!

I agree on that one, though I choose Asia's first. I really LOVE Geoff Downes synths sounds and playing on the 1st Asia record! He creates an incredible and unique atmosphere.

Snow Dog wrote: Asia weren't rubbish. It depends if you like that sort of thing. I was really dissapointed with the second album and lost interest!  Later I bought Aqua which isn't to bad. I have no problem enjoying Prog and other styles. Asia are kinda Proggy AOR very well done!

• Heat of the Moment, Only Time Will Tell, Sole Survivor, Time Again and Wildest Dreams from "Asia"
• The Smile has left Your Eyes, Never in a Million Years, Eye to Eye and Midnight Sun from "Alpha"
• Rock'n'roll Dream, Countdown to Zero and After the War from "Astra"
• Who Will Stop The Rain, Heaven On Earth, Someday, Little Rich Boy and A Far Cry from "Aqua"
• Are You Big Enough?, Remembrance Day and Military Man from "Aria"
• Arena, The Day Before The War (their best track ever IMHO), Falling, U Bring Me Down and Turn it Around from "Arena" (their best album IMHO)
• Kings Of The Day, On The Coldest Day In Hell, Free and Hands Of Time from "Aura"
• Midnight, Ghost in the Mirror and Darkness Day from "Silent Nation"

• Hard on me, Wishing and Suspicion from "Astra"
• Love under fire (Greg Lake took the habit of co-writing awful crap in the early nineties...ditto for Heart on Ice from ELP's In the Hot Seat) from "Aqua"
• Feels like Love from "Aria"

ASIA didn't have to be rubbish... but they became so because their post-debut album material lacked of attractive musical ideas beyond the patterns of AOR and/or exquisite prog-oriented arrangements, or both. Listen to good songs such as 'Eye to Eye', 'Open Your Eyes' or 'Go' - I'm sure that Pallas, 80s Rush or Saga would have been capable of developing them further and make them better than simply good. 'Midnight Sun' and 'I'll Do What I Want' would have been perfect Rabin-era Yes songs, much better than most of the "BG" repertoire and also, much better than any of the K-R-S-W material for the "Union" album.

ASIA lacked consistency: a more intelligent effort by Downes in the arrengement department and more room for Howe's musical ideas, plus a major interest of Wetton to go back to his early UK days, all three things would have helped ASIA become more relevant in the world of prog. And it wasn't so hard to do: I've listened to some Downes solo input, and it is really good, new age with prog tendencies. Listen to the most decent material of ABWH, and you will see what Asia should have done. Now, imagine this for the song 'Cutting It Fine': after the multilayered orchestral section ends, comes a reprise of the first motif, with an amazing, moderately log guitar solo by Howe, and right before the end, Wetton singing some final lines. It would have been a hell of a prog rock suite!!

Regards.

The time, and musicians approaching middle age and thinking about pensions.....

I have suspect Asia opened the door to Europe (a coincidence of continental names??), with their stripped down pop with distant prog pretentions - and oh, financial success. And Toto's Africa.......? At least America were CSN followers.

Anybody like to predict what the soon-to-appear bands, Australaisa, Antarctica and Arctic will sound like?  

Then Geffen tapped Mike Stone as producer. What
was Stone's background?

Journey!!! The horrible 70s/80s AOR
power balladeers. So..., you're going to get music
that sounds like Journey.

iguana wrote: ferchrissakes, LEAVE THE ALONE!!!!!!! this asia-bashing is becoming quite ridiculous. everybody loves a good scapegoat, right? grow up!

it's a valid question and it is based on the music not on the fact that they may/may not be prog.  they were sh1te because of their songs.

They just didn't cut the mustard....

....I mean, they didn't even know which continent they were from for gawd's sake!......

Shockingly over the top artwork for such a mediocre, cringeworthy sound...

...when you're new to Prog you pick up and Asia album and think "Wow this looks like it's going to be the next YES".......but when the needle hits, it all comes crashing down

Fragile wrote: The 80's was an awful decade and AOR bands were to the fore and prog had all but died.Asia's 1st album taken simply as a rock project was damn good. 'Heat of the Moment' and 'Sole Survivor' were excellent pop/rock songs, but they were no prog outfit just a wisely assembled bunch of stars from previous prog bands.The 80's gave us AOR Yes for goodness sakes and I'm still having the nightmares with 'Owner of a lonely Heart' pounding the airwaves

But RUSH!?

Talk about judging a book by a cover LOL!

 The Boston debut is one of the greatest Lp's of all time and Chicago one of the greatest bands the world will ever know. 

 They are considered to be some of the most prestigious innovations ever.  It's all in the music and not in a name, that is most uneducated statement I had ever heard when commenting about music.

Chicago spanned success over 4 decades and Kansas did very well also.
  Boston Came back 10 years after their debut to have a massive tour & album.
 Europe shouldn't be even be mentioned with these icon's of classic rock, simply because it's a name of a city or continent. They tried to copy ASIA, but that was an honor to ASIA.
   A copy of a Rolex can look like a Rolex, but it's a knock off, it should not reflect on the original.

  " imitation is the most sincere form of flattery ".

BMW_1 wrote: Talk about judging a book by a cover LOL!  The Boston debut is one of the greatest Lp's of all time and Chicago one of the greatest bands the world will ever know.   They are considered to be some of the most prestigious innovations ever.  It's all in the music and not in a name, that is most uneducated statement I had ever heard when commenting about music. Chicago spanned success over 4 decades and Kansas did very well also.   Boston Came back 10 years after their debut to have a massive tour & album.  Europe shouldn't be even be mentioned with these icon's of classic rock, simply because it's a name of a city or continent. They tried to copy ASIA, but that was an honor to ASIA.    A copy of a Rolex can look like a Rolex, but it's a knock off, it should not reflect on the original.   " imitation is the most sincere form of flattery ".

It was a joke, bah.

BMW_1 wrote: I doubt there is anyone that has listened to this LP more than me. I ask all to realize that ASIA went against the promoted style of music of the time, outselling most in 82, Billboard's album of the year, #1 for 9 weeks, as of 1982, it was the biggest selling debut album from a progressive rock band. ASIA also was known to brake up 2 bands, so the best knife to put in ASIA may have been from some critics. Some critics said it was fake ( source, book My Own Time, biography Of John Wetton, by Kim Dancha ), in other words them not believing that a band can play this perfectly, this ended up being a compliment because, THEY REALLY WERE! The main reason why people were disappointed in this LP, is they looked at the musicians, and being fans of their previous bands, expected that same format with ASIA. Those that praised this LP, did not expect the sound to be like that of their previous bands, they took it for what it was. A more innovative (Boston) sound with progressive and classical tinge, Yes, they put it in more mainstream format, but many songs from the Masterpiece Sgt. Peppers are in a mainstream format, so keep that in mind. But there was another side of ASIA reviews, those already comparing to the greatest albums of all time, & this continues until this day, as I will show at the end of this article! Sgt. Peppers, not known as progressive rock, yet praised as an innovative masterpiece. The Song Within You & Without You has no massive scales, or incredible drumming, but it's overall creativity is what labeled this as a masterpiece, so it is safe to assume, that the guys in ASIA did not wish to repeat what they did in the 70's, but to create a masterpiece with another format, so those who expected the old format, I say to you, that is the problem right there, they wrote this LP being on a different boat. Progressive rock has become synonymous with Art rock, and that's what the ASIA debut is, Art rock with the fat cut off, as I belive Brian Lane said it best. Only Time Will Tell seemed to spark a sound that was a dawn of new generation, during the song you can hear Carl creatively clicking the cow bell to represent the sound of time marching on while the opening hook is being played simultaneously, truly creative art. Steve's ascending scales blend in perfect. This is an anthem rather than a song that has stood the test of time. In Sole Survivor, when listening through headphones, you can hear that the men created a sound to represent someone crawling out of a wreckage, as the bass is thumping, Steve played ascending guitar scales to make it sound as an uprising climb, Carl jumps in when it appears the person made it out the wreckage, this was the art that made this the masterpiece it is, not having five guitar solos or different solos or songs glued together that were sometimes written at different time periods. Sole Survivor has been an inspiration for many as they go through life overcoming trials and tribulations. Time Again is great powerful rock tune that has a Boston/Kansas format, tight, great drumming, & powerful ending. Wildest Dreams was very political, Wetton Downes appears to speaking of the generation of the Vietnam era, as the video shown that was banned form MTV. as being to violent. Yes, ASIA was not known as sell outs as to be the perfect example of what parents approve of, being banned from MTV was a great example. Touching on such controversial subjects as euthanasia, and children being trampled, the harsh reality they claim they would not have thought of in their dreams. The song goes on to ask, how many millions will they put to sleep? You then hear the creative art of a transcendental light violin sound to represent sleep, a subtle way of asking how many millions will die as it appears to speaking of possible nuclear war. During Steve's ripping ascending guitar solo, you hear Geoff's keyboards in the other side of the stereo, they both meet in an amazing crescendo. The song ends with a scorching drum solo, but even this has great collaboration, Geoff's keyboards jump in at the right time to create a unique creative art, the song then ends in church bells, and you can use your imagination to figure what that meant....death service. Art at it's finest. Without You has creative drum fills, a great intro, but takes off to be an anthem, the sound of this reminded me of the Bill Conti composition " Going The Distance" from Rocky. Yes it is in this manner that made this a masterpiece, four men sounding as a 30 piece orchestra. Listen to the way the way Howe & Downes collaborated and the way that Wetton & Palmer answered back, will remind you of such Aqualung moments! During Steve's solo, Geoff's collaborates to one of his notes, but the sound appears to be a representation of as I will call it " a ringing in the ear ", innovative & designed to go right through you just when you seem to be at the crescendo of the song. Howe then adds descending acoustics as the song winds down. Cutting It Fine is straight up kick as rock roll, Wetton's bass & voice is powerful. The song then changes format with Geoff Downes' transcendental keyboard solo that is a masterpiece.. The LP ends with Here Comes The Feeling, all I can say is, listen to the way Howe & Palmer collaborated in this song through a good set of headphones, wow! In closing, I will say there is a progressive rock hall of fame here on the net, although they admit they are not the definitive list, because there is not one, it was getting thousands of people to agree on what the best in Progressive rock was, as it says without quoting them verbatim, and this ASIA debut is among the two handfuls of albums ther along with Dark side and Fragile. Stop looking for the old format in this LP, ASIA threw something different on the table with this baby, obviously these guys forgot the old format in 82. Rediscover this acclaimed masterpiece of 82 that is the greatest example of art rock! The YES LP 90125 recorded Owner Of A Lonely Heart, that has the format of Heat Of The Moment. Emerson Lake & Powell also had a hit with Touch & Go. ASIA, the band that redefined progressive rock, as the 70's bands came back in the 80's only to follow their format.

 I agree. Even if one album is not "fully Progressive", it has a lot of good things to keep the listener interested.

I remember that when I was in High School I became very "dogmatic": "if the style of a band is not Progressive Rock, it is crap; if a band doesn`t have a keyboard player, is not Prog Rock; so, if it is not  Prog Rock, it is  crap". I hated bands like Kansas ("too much distorted guitars, it is not Prog Rock"), Rush ("they don`t have a full time keyboard player, so their music is not Prog, it`s crap"), Boston ("heavy metal, it is crap"), Tears for Fears ("look at their haircuts, and their music, is not Prog, it is crap"), etc., etc. Years later I changed my opinion about these bands and I really appreciated how good they were/are in their own styles, being Prog or not Prog. But it was a bit "strange":I liked Asia since the beginning, I liked Genesis  Pop albums like "Duke", I liked The Beatles, etc., etc,. and I never criticized them of not being "Prog". Anything  that was "new" (new bands of the 80s, for example) was "crap"  .

I started to appreciate Rock music in general, again. Rock music was the start for Prog Rockers. Some of them simply returned to their "roots": playing more simple music. Being themselves very good musicians after the "training" that Prog Rock gave to them, they played more simple songs with a very good sound and arrangements.

plodder wrote: I thought the first album was really good. The rest sucked big time.

I'll be the first to admit Alpha pales in comparison to the debut, but if you listen to it you will find a few very well written tunes.
 
My Own Time is a great written song, more people have related their own life to this song than any other ASIA song.

The Smile Has Left Your Eyes is fantastic, the Live version in Moscow is by far better than the original.

In the Moscow video they also recorded the UK tune Rendezvous 602, but this time it was different, Wetton dropped his bass & Geoff played it on the keys with Wetton's vocals, it was really something.

They may not have had those incredible collaborations after the first LP, but because of that it's too simple to say the rest sucked, it really didn't.
  There are some well written songs on Alpha.