Why isn't prog popular?
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Topic: Why isn't prog popular?
Posted By: JS19
Subject: Why isn't prog popular?
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 04:57
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This seems like a simple question, but I think there's more to it than just: 'it's not catchy'. Any thoughts?
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Posted By: friso
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 05:04
| well... I think it has never focussed itself on high status, sexual power and populism. It's intellectual characteristics make it look like it's 'not for all the people'. Furthermore the lyrics often aren't about ordinary life events. There simply is no money and no drive for a public strategy. |
Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 06:07
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I agree, It has always focused on the music, rather than the scene around it, or the charts. What I don't understand is although a lot of people enjoy music, they are equally interested in the whole 'being a part of the band' eg. hairstyles, clothes, political viewpoints', instead of just being in it for the music. Isn't the whole point of music, the music, not just having the same skinny jeans that Billy Joe Armstrong has? -------------
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Posted By: yanch
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 06:18
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^^Great points. I think the whole "skinny jeans" thing is a major factor-business and marketing. Since so much of the music industry is controlled or influenced by large companies, they want simple things to market. Prog bands are not into fashion trends, hair, jeans, etc. (for the most part). They're tough to market, so they are not nearly as visible and therefore not promoted the way main stream music is marketed. Showing more of my cynical side-the general music-listening population, at least here in the states, doesn't want to think too hard about what they listen to. It's easier for them to go with the bands. performers who are very visible and show up in the various media on a regular basis. It's the whole-instant gratification thing.
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 06:25
| Nerd Music |
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 06:33
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To be simple, people don't have the time to listen to long songs. People don't want to have to listen to an album ten times to understand it. And people don't want to hear thirty minute keyboard solos.
------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 06:47
On the subject of 30 minute keyboard solos  , I think that stereotyping is also a major point here. Most of the people who know of it, but not about it, think that every song is overblown, pretentious and therefore standoffish and unapproachable. The only references in the media use only these stereotypes, usually in comedy, where the joke IS the stereotype (I distinctly remember several references to Yes and Genesis in Top Gear, which didn't exactly put it in a good light)A lot of people have had no exposure to prog either, so don't know what to expect, but aren't brave enough to try something out of their comfort zone (understandable, I don't really venture outside mine either). Overall, progressive music hasn't had great press over the years, so it's the last genre people are going to try if they do want to listen to something new.
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SolarLuna96 wrote:Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 06:59
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^ that last one was kind of a joke but another reason could be that these people have never heard prog in the first place, so they won't know wether they like prog or not. And sure maybe some people like Pink Floyd, but if they don't know what prog is and they want more music like Pink Floyd, then they catagorize them as...classic rock.
------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Prog Geo
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 07:03
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Because prog rock/metal is strange music.Also people are a****les.
------------- Sonorous Meal show every Sunday at 20:00 (greek time) on http://www.justincaseradio.com |
Posted By: Junges
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 07:11
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Because it is not a type of music easy to get into, because most people aren't interested in music at all and only hear what plays on the radio or what comes to them, because it is a very intimate, personal kind of music, which would probably be laughable played in public.
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Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 07:17
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OP, you do know that your avatar is called "Hipster Kitty", right?
------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 07:36
| Prog was huge in the 1970s, and it's more popular now than it was in the 1980s. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 07:39
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'Cos it ain't sexy and attempts to make it so would alienate it's consumers and just be plain vanilla creepy: An oiled up Robert Fripp stripped to the waist in sparkly disco pants is NOT a spectator sport. 
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Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 08:09
We won't know til we try. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 08:42
This, in spades. Yes, Led Zep, The Who (all of whom are on the site) were just about the biggest bands on the planet in the mid 1970's. Genesis as well, although some don't like their "popular" phase Prog is pretty big now. Porcupine tree & Dream Theater sell albums by the truckload. As do Opeth. Lots of others do pretty well also. Radiohead are hugely popular, as are Muse, both of whom have clear progressive leanings. It is no longer an item of mass culture, to be sure. That, of course, is a good thing. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Formentera Lady
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 09:08
| Most people use music as a background sound. It disturbs them, if the music constantly changes in structure, dynamics or rhythm, or if you can't hum with the chorus (because there is maybe none). |
Posted By: cacha71
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 09:09
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Not enough TV coverage. Most people learn about new music artists and releases from TV and Prog artists aren't in popular TV talent shows like "X Factor", "(Country) You've Got Talent", or on MTV. As mentioned by JS19 above, a lot more is being sold than just music by TV. TV has created a celebrity culture where far too much emphasis is on visual impact and being famous and not so much the actual music. Listening to Prog just isn't cool!
------------- http://www.last.fm/group/Progressive+Folk |
Posted By: mmmreesescups
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 09:14
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People would rather tune into something simpler and easy to listen to. Also, the fact that more popular music I backed by marketing and lots and lots of money. ------------- 
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Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 09:40
These however seem to be the prog bands who have the most leanings towards mainstream music, and it's not as if they're 'the biggest bands on the planet'. The only band I can think of that fits into both categories is Rush, and they're 'the world biggest cult band', so still have yet to break the mainstream. And about Muse: yes, but there is a large difference between the Prog-Related genre on PA, and the rest. As I once said when Muse were on Top Of The Pops a long time ago: 'Hang on, they've got dancing girls! .... Prog doesn't get dancing girls'
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Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:24
Yep. It was actually about the only thing we listened to. We didn't know it was prog though. It was the Punks that gave this kind of music a bad reputation and "music" from these orcs killed peoples apetite for more complex music it seems. At least it has taken until now for it to recover. I think a forum like this shows that this kind of music is gathering momentum again. |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:35
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The reason why Prog is not popular is that it is a heavy music listener's genre. A lot of people don't listen to an album the whole year round, they need jingles. Even those who listen to music may not sit down and listen to music for regular extended periods. This is the Ipod century, after all. I'd suggest out of heavy listeners to music in general there is a high correlation to prog fans (and related high-quality genres). This is 70-90% of the problem. The other may be the attraction of soft listening, which can be provided by country, soft-pop/rock and in minority, classical, jazz etc. |
Posted By: AllP0werToSlaves
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 10:41
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Two words: instant gratification. Prog doesn't cater to those without patience.
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Posted By: Acidchrist
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:33
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Wow, my first post! I think progressive music isn't popular because it can be challenging to our expectations of what music should be. We all grew up on music in 4/4 and in simple major or minor keys with predictable song structures. Predictable music is simply enjoyable. People might enjoy subtle changes in what they expect, but it can be a bit much at first to switch straight from radio rock to progressive music. I was raised on Yes and Rush by my father, so progressiveness became the norm for me. For somewhat that hasn't slowly grown in the direction of progressive music, it's probably a bit much to take. Doesn't mean they're less intelligent, or have worse tastes. It just means they aren't prepared for music that's more challenging to listen to. On top of this, the long jazz and classical influenced structures of progressive songs make it easy for listeners to grasp the concepts of the music on the first listen. Most people will grow to love progressive music over time if they hear enough of it, in my experience. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:41
I agree halfway with this. But I also know people who listen to classical music who'd dismiss prog but not pop. So, over and above the challenging nature of the music, the biggest 'problem' with prog is that it rejects established genres and established modes of rendering and seeks out those that work to achieve what expression - unique or not - that the artist may have in mind. People like music in neat formats, it somehow makes the listening process easier for them. I personally find music too closely adhering to the format boring, so it's no wonder I love what prog stands for. |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 11:56
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Here's what I think, repeating a bit of what others said:
- It doesn't gratify instant gratification. Check!
- It's not danceable, it doesn't go along with your average chick. Check!
- Most people don't really care for music as a form of art. Check!
. people don't listen to albums or even whole songs anymore. They just want to download the hit and listen to it repeated times till it's out of fashion.
. people don't really know what they're listening to. Maybe not a bad thing per se, and here comes the part that we (Prog fans and other music fans) are "music nerds". A guy can listen to Enter Sandman and a Nickleback song and think they're the same rock. People don't really listen to the music, if it's catchy so be it, they careless for the musicians and what are they playing.
Yeah, I could think of some more stuff, but I think the basics are there.
That's why I think that a Prog fan generally is meant to broad their music horizons, since they generally appreciate music as a form of art and not simply because it's catchy or hip. They appreciate what they're listening to and dare to search for more art that can satisfy them, plus they give their time for dedication of it.
Not trying to put us, fans, like superhumans or anything.
BTW: this is all coming from a 16 year old guy, so this is what I see between my friends and social group (?).
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Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 12:12
Hey, welcome to the PA forums, we're all friendly (mostly  ), ..... just watch out for Walter I agree 100% with your post. I was raised in a 'progressive' environment too, so I just grew to love what I heard, and normal music just missed that something special. I think to be honest, you can learn to love anything, if you listen to it enough, but prog rock doesn't have that instant pull that some music has, but is ultimately more rewarding in the long term.
I'm the same age, and I base what I know about mainstream music from my friends, who, however, seem to be just as passionate about music as me. -------------
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 12:14
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Everyone has very good reasons why prog may not be popular. The difference now is the availability of media coverage, news at faster than the blink of an eye. There is so much content being thrown at us that to me anything that might have good content gets lost in the distribution....so it can become "un-popular" very quickly in our society. Back in the day for me the music media was my rock magazines that I used to subscribe to, received in the mail and of course the stories and news had happened 2 months prior or more. Concert reviews were months old...Album reviews were at least a month old......but that was the news back then.
Today an album gets reviewed the day it is released and sometimes before it is released to the public...
Basically I just feel there is no time for people to experience music as we used to back in the day.
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 12:17
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To me the question always was how can a experimental artistic current become mainstream. It does happen once in a while. Progressive rock was a subculture of 70s pop culture, and to me it is a difficult thing to explain how the hell it actually went mainstream up to a point, considering that it was an avantgarde pop movement. I assume it was the allignement with a phase of early development of the media and entertainment industry, before it really "industrialized" itself and imposed cheap, accessible products that sell way better. Anyway, after the interest in classic rock and its culture went down in the late 70s, people who were into new, exciting things went with post-punk, new wave, synth-pop, metal, early techno music etc. (or with the new avantgarde movements, like no-wave, industrial music, noise music, etc.) and those nostalgic with the 70s sound went with the most accessible aspects of it (like AOR). I would rather categorize this situation as normal, in the context of a well established of an entertainment industry, rather than the privileged 70s scenario. |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 12:26
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Different people use music for different things. Probably the most common ones:
1. Background sound to enhance a mood: Most prog changes too much to work here
2. Dancing: Enough said.
Prog is like art house film. You have to really enjoy the artform itself. Appreciate a good performance, the craft. Also, some of it is going to be BADDD. Of course some of the best stuff is there too. You have to have enough patience to sift. Sometimes the best stuff breaks out to a bigger audience, if it's not too wierd.
There are alot of hard core music listeners like us who gravitate to other genres like classical and jazz or ??? But alot of people have to get to a burnout point on mainstream music before they start looking for something else. That requires a lot of listening first. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 12:55
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I think there are as many reasons, or variations of them, as there are people who listen to music. Most people want to be entertained by music, so a catchy song is easier for them to listen to, and there are plenty of opportunities that require virtually no effort. But it is difficult for me to describe what the general population thinks since I live in a cave high in the mountains (metaphorically speaking of course) and popular culture is filtered before it enters my awareness. Here is one thing I can say for certain though:
Most of my old friend from high school (pre-milennial) are musicians and have been since then. Most of them at the same time do not like Prog at all. One would think it would be otherwise but it is not. I have pondered over this for years and have reached a conclusion: They do not like Prog because it wears its musicianship on its sleeves. It is music about music, rather than music which serves the song. In that way, even though the musicinship levels of Prog tend to be high (they aren't always), they lack a certain aesthetic subtlety. As one friend has said about Allan Holdsworth, "Wow, he's really good. I have no idea what he's doing. I'm getting a headache. Please make him stop." This is from a person who has transcribed Telemann pieces onto electric bass, so he knows his stuff. To me, it is a strange attitude. Or maybe the whole attitude is really sour grapes, but I don't think so. This same group tends to not like Jazz either, I think perhaps for the same reasons.
This attitude may translate to the general public. They don't understand it; it takes some knowledge of music to appreciate and most people don't have that.  ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 13:11
You have a wise head on young shoulders certainly. The only bit I have a little niggle with is that which I've highlighted in red. Perhaps I'm confusing value with memorability but 'catchy' is really hard (just you try to write a melody that window cleaners, postmen, housewives and their descendants can't stop singing to themselves for years to come) But otherwise yes, I think you're correct that Prog fans are not necessarily discouraged by music that contains no readily identifiable 'hooks' and that we have many other criteria through which we can discern a value in the music of our choice. -------------
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 13:27
| ^I agree, but I'm not talking about that cathiness. If not just the mass(es) catchiness, which is for example a reggaeton tune that has the same rhythm and sex themed lyrics than any other from the "genre", and still it's the law that it's catchy for all the people. Not sure if I explained that clearly. |
Posted By: timburlane
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 13:37
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Because a lot of people don't like it. Having said that more people like it now than has been the case since the mid seventies. My boss, with whom I share a lot of musical interests (we're both music teachers) doesn't care for prog much at all although he does like Radiohead and the Penguin Cafe Orchestra. When we were both teenagers in the mid/late seventies he toally bought into the whole "Year Zero" ethos that punk had and has never really got over it. Ultimately he, like many others, finds prog to be pretentious and exclusive not having the "say it brilliantly, say it in three minutes and make sure you can dance to it" attitude that pop music has. ------------- never eat anything bigger than your head |
Posted By: Acidchrist
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 13:43
I would definitely agree with this! Also, that's a pretty darn good reason to like prog.
Thanks for the welcome!  And I think you're right about it being more rewarding in the long run. And about being able to learn to love anything: I am a giant fan of 90s gangster rap, which is musically the virtual opposite of progressive rock. I used to despise rap, but after hearing enough of it I learned to love the style of lyricism and the simplicity of the music. I bet that a lot of people would like prog if they heard as much of it as they did radio-friendly music.
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), ..... just watch out for Walter Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 14:48
 But seriously....who am I to say why and what for? After all the garbage I've witnessed I must find irony in this subject in order to survive. I second that motion of the punks giving prog a bad reputation.It's a sad situation and the punks had the power to influence the minds and mentalities of the youth in the 70's. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what really happened to Progressive Rock in the late 70's.
What feels kind of strange to me now is the realization from my past that Emerson, Wakeman, and Ian Anderson were once on the front covers of Creem magazine, Hit Parader, and Circus monthy and for years. Smashing up organs, wearing tights, wearing long robes was part of the rock star mentality.Marketing these musicians in that fashion surely attracted a wide variety of rock music fans. I'm sure fans might find it all laughable today. There is even more irony to think about here. For example the pictures of these musicians on magazine covers brought about the interest to fans of Hard Rock (Sabbath), Stadium Rock, and Top 40 Eventually that diverse of an audience began talking about the music stating it was trippy or had complex arrangements....just as proggers today often do. It was an in your face promotion method which in return attracted a huge audience. The end result for a course of time was this: A vast amount of people in the early to mid 70's were enjoying Progressive Rock for what it really meant. Appreciation for the art of someone playing an instrument like a fine wine. The overall welcoming of that aspect during the 70's gives me chills when I think about it today.
The respect of an audience that was not full-fledged prog. They respected the compositions, attended the concerts, and bought the records. Names like Bill Bruford were like household names at rock concerts. It's a sad ending in the sense that it simply had to end by the hand of discrimination. The punks actually influenced a major part of the late 70's youth to believe that improvising on an instrument was the characteristic of a nerd. That is how I examine the big picture. That many people being influenced by a half-wit mentality or following that twisted ideology is scary. I hope there is a future for Prog so musicians can stop burning their tires off on daytime jobs and starving eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches 3 times a day.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 15:01
I think it has a lot to do with the arts in any one country.
In places where arts tend to be accepted a bit more and respected for their history, the chances of a musician doing something that is appreciated more for its work and attempt is a lot more valuable than in places like America ... where it is all about the ____ size, fame and fortune! And the fans that it generates, of course.
Even in London, one could appreciate the classical chops and hands of a Keith Emerson, whereas in America, it was all about the loudness, the glow and the fame ... and the advertising.
Literature is also an issue. Both Melody Maker and what it became later, were not great, but they were also a lot more respectful of what the art was and the artist wanted to do. When comparing it to Rolling Stone in America, the work they do is nothing but a dish rag, and has been since its inception, more concerned with the bare covers and the famous slut-ting it was promoting, instead of the music itself. In fact, I like to say that Rolling Stone, has no music taste whatsoever.
They did do some odd things, and the likes of Mr. Gonzo was always a trip, but he was something that they could not ignore, because he was the coolest of the cool, and that goes with the fame and everything else really well.
I also think the educational system has a say in the whole thing. The American systems have not recognized the arts for a long time, and made sure that programs were cut for the arts so Mapplethorpe and other revolutionary artists could not get a voice or get more famous. America, has no idea what "art" is, and most of it is a nice picture of onions and tomatoes in the dining room!
Sometimes it's really trying discussing art against that kind of vision and visual ... too much of America is about the commercial show for it, and nothing else. And the worst part? ... the kids and the folks believe it! ... so go back to your American Idol? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: natewait
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 15:13
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By very definition Pop music is popular. It is what the average person hears the most. It is what they hear on the radio, or from TV, or from their friends. Since this is the music they become familiar with, it is the music they end up listening to. That is why when people are introduced to prog music they might find it "weird" or "pretentious" or even "boring." It is because Pop music has become the standard by which to judge music for most people, and in comparison to pop music, I can see how people would come to those conclusions about prog. They don't really give the music a chance, and just judge it on the surface by how it compares to what they are familiar with. Also, I think most people are casual music listeners. They don't want to put too much effort into finding music, so they stick to the biggest hits on itunes, and are happy with that. It isn't worth the time, effort, or money to find other forms of music they might like. Why should they when they are perfectly content with the music they already have? I think Prog music listeners are those that either grew up with it and became familiar with it from their parents (thus, it in a way became their 'pop' music) or were more inclined for adventurous music due to their nature or from being a musician themselves and had friends that introduced them to it or developed a certain flavor for it through their exploration of music. But, I think these are the minority. Most people just listen to what they happen to come across and don't put too much effort in finding new music. Since pop music is the most accesible, that is what they listen to. But, those are just my random thoughts... ------------- Please check out my Progressive Music Blog: http://leviathanprog.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - The Leviathan . |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 15:30
About some 30 years ago, a book came out called ... The One Minute Manager ... and while I was not going to get worked up about the Zen style that it was trying to get across, in the end, what it was getting across was ... be stupid, and make it quick and get it over with. In other words, a manager that talked to you like that is not going to last very long, specially if it is a serious situation. Secondly, the part I thought was bad, was ... that it wanted you to lower the expectations and also accept what was in front of you ... make you the social/commercial zombie (makes you wonder why we like all those movies?) that does not talk, say anything, and on top of it (or more importantly for a corporate America!) ... or question anything ... because in America might is right! Money is right! Sales is right!
The length of the piece, is, as you mention above, also an issue. And it is quite visible here in this board that many people do not have the patience, the desire or the ability to enjoy a long piece of music ... and before long, the only thing they can say is that the solo was boring ... which right away tells you that the focus was not on the "music" and its story (as classical music and the best music always has in any genre!) ... but on something that is a personal preference, that did not go right for that person.
It scares me to hear people saying that Steve Hackett was just soloing in "Firth of Fifth" ... screw the lyrics and screw the story ... because it means absolutely nothing, if it is just a solo ... and totally pointless at that ... why bother setting up a musical passage ... if all it is is a solo ... that's not even "progressive" in its concept and actualization!
Between you and I, and it is not a comment that people are not capable of it, they all are ... they just have to "want to check it out" ... when listeners are infatuated with Apple, Oranges and Rapsodies and crap, they really have no idea, or the ability to sit and listen to a symphony, or an opera ... and when someone says something about it, it becomes an insult on their intelligence. IT's NOT ... it's a challenge ... do you have the ear to hear more or not? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Xanatos
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 15:48
| Simple , not everybody is a musician xD |
Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 16:05
I'll have to disagree with this. I am a music student (classical) and I know a lot of musicians, and not one is an avid fan of prog. It's not what people want when they sit down after a technical practice or composition, they want simplicity and enjoyment, and I understand the feeling. People don't want to mix work/school and relaxation, so complex structures and time signatures remind people of work/school. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 16:06
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Because we live in a fast society that likes fast food and fast music. They want the music served to dance or enjoy in their free time without having to do anything...Prog requires participation and especial attention from the listener...That's not what they want. Iván
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 16:07
I think he wanted to make a joke. Not very successful IMO. |
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 16:23
Yup, people just want to dance, they don't have the time to actually digest music or keep any of it after a year, it's just Download Play [this section lasts one week to one month depending on how many times it is played on the radio  ]Delete ------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 16:41
Sad really, because good music is such an amazing and expressive thing that most people miss out on... A part of me, however, kind of likes that: I'm keeping it all for myself -------------
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Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 16:57
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A lot of prog is popular without being known as "prog" in popular culture. Dream Theater are very popular at the moment but alot of people just think of them as a heavy metal band. And of course Radiohead (but lets not get into that debate). Iron Maiden, Tool, Peter Gabriel all very widely known but never referred to as prog outside prog circles. I guess prog is a derogatory term nowadays -------------  
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Posted By: Prog Geo
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 16:59
You're right! ------------- Sonorous Meal show every Sunday at 20:00 (greek time) on http://www.justincaseradio.com |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 17:06
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Story:
In my grade 11 computers class today, we had to present about ourselves. One girl in my class included her favourite bands in the presentation. One of which was Spock's Beard.
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Posted By: silcir
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 17:14
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Prog was enormous in the 70's. I Mean really Big. Nowadays its true it aint popular. Though i must say that a good part of my friends, either female or male, likes JEthro Tull, The folsky sound attracts people, true story. Anyway in general, the problem with prog is that most of it doesnt end in 3min songs. And the newer prog artists are don't care about being popular. |
Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 17:14
I love how bands like Dillinger Escape Plan use terms like Mathcore, ect just so they don't have to use the word prog, because then they wouldn't sell. Critics never say that something is progressive either, they will come up with a million other (wrong) words to describe them though. It's like it's a dirty word -------------
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 17:33
 I'm not a musician. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 17:33
That's a matter of opinion...If you are someone who is gonna sit there and try to disect a song to the point that you are tryng to count the time signatures, then yea I guess your gonna fry your brain.
When I work from home I have my stereo going loud enough where I can hear it well and so much that when my phone rings I have to turn it down...I don't want my customers thinking I am at a concert everytime they call me
.But in noway for me, does it hamper my processing of work and at the same time I can plug the earphones in and laydown and I will be out like a light......music soothes the savage beast. -------------
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Posted By: Bitterblogger
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 17:42
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Two reasons:
1. VIRTUOSITY ISN'T ACCESSIBLE. The press always believed that the rock-and-roll lifestyle should be the highest aspiration (because that's what they wanted)--not musical virtuosity. The musically gifted can be admired, but not emulated--it's better to be a personality, because anyone can do the latter. And it's easier to market. Were there any prog rock hijinks that captured mainstream attention? I can't name any that mainstream music fans would know about.
2. Apologies in advance for this, and there are exceptions, but in appreciable numbers CHICKS & PROG ROCK DON'T MIX, fan-wise or groupie-wise, so the press hated it for that reason too.
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Posted By: Prog Geo
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 18:07
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That's why Gene Simmons was wondering if Rush are gay.
------------- Sonorous Meal show every Sunday at 20:00 (greek time) on http://www.justincaseradio.com |
Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 18:09
Got to love Beyond The Lighted Stage -------------
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Posted By: Jazzywoman
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 18:12
I mean, I've been a prog fan for about 5 years or so now....and thats a miracle coming from someone who used to love Brittany Spears...(yes, im very ashamed....no question.... ). Anyways, progressive rock is just too intense to listen to for normal minds. I mean, when I went to school and I played something like "Subdivisions" from Rush on my ipod or "Lord of Light" from Hawkwind...no one clicked with it. Then again, Hawkwind is extremely odd with their audio generators and such...anyways, moving back on topic. I don't think they feel that some emotion as they do with their so called "artists." Some claim that progressive rock has no emotion, as it may be just all virtuosity and fantasy based lyrics. Now, this may be true, but there is so much more than that. Bands like Rush, Yes, Genesis, etc... have put tons of emotion, thought and time into crafting a part of a song, yet it takes someone like Justine Beiber..(yes, the e at the end of his name was intended... ) two seconds to write a completely nonsense and annoying hook that every 5-16 year old girl is going to love to hear. It's all about easy listening, yet it seems that the easiest listening nowadays comes from prog.... ------------- 
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Posted By: timburlane
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 18:50
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When I was thirteen/fourteen I was into heavy rock. This would have been 1977/78 and being a fan of Rush, Zeppelin, Queen, Sabbath etc was socially a bit of of trial at school where most of my peers were into punk in a big way and had really bought into the cultural politics of the movement as well. In the UK at the time, even in the rural backwater where I lived, the sentiment was "out with the old, in with the new" and the first bands in the firing line were the big prog bands because almost overnight they seemed out-dated and out of touch. The music of rebellion seven years previously had become the music of the establishment and to many of my mates it was totally divorced from anything they were remotely interested in. In this country the natural constituency for progressive music was the middle class and they deserted it in their droves for punk in those years. It had something to say about the world which prog/heavy rock/metal didn't. I still liked all the unfashionable stuff, more so BECAUSE it was unfashionable I suspect, and yet there's no denying that the Clash, The Pistols and the Stranglers, amonst many others also lit my candle. I was outragfed that music that I loved was suddenly out of favour and I and a small group of friends chuntered on to each other about how stupid the others were but I think secretly we loved being a minority. We considered ourselves intellectually superior to knuckle-dragging fashion drones because we appreciated quality musicianship and the idea of putting on a show.
I'm forty six now and frankly I've grown up. I'm a working musician and teacher and I've seen all kinds of fads come and go. The music I listen tois no longer a part of some tribal identity and (nearly) everything i used to sneer at is stuff that I can appreciate now. I like, no I LOVE prog but many people I know and respect don't, the same way they don't get the country/blugrass/experimetal/dance music that I'm into and that's cool. All this is a slightly pissed ramble, for which I apologise.... ------------- never eat anything bigger than your head |
Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 18:57
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[/QUOTE] I love how bands like Dillinger Escape Plan use terms like Mathcore, ect just so they don't have to use the word prog, because then they wouldn't sell. Critics never say that something is progressive either, they will come up with a million other (wrong) words to describe them though. It's like it's a dirty word [/QUOTE]
yes i've heard lots of this stuff most prog metal bands end up being called "hard-thrash-dripple-throbcore" i find any metal sub genre ending in core nowadays is an ashamed prog performer -------------
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Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 19:00
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^ Yeah when/if I have a prog band, I will try to catagorize myself as prog as much as possible just to get it into people's thick heads
------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 19:12
| /thread. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 19:43
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Because it isn't promoted like popular music. You have your rock stations your soft rock stations your pop rock stations your country rock stations, etc. All of them either play stuff that was popular in the past or stuff that the record companies are pushing. But in the end I don't really care, nor do I take a snobbish point of view when it comes to prog, even though we are an elite group of music lovers.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 20:04
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Well, I guess everyone can be converted to prog. It could be a matter of time. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 20:09
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Have you ever converted someone to prog music? I've got a theory in wich I could say that everyone could become a progger in a matter of time if you know what to make him try. For an exemple, I converted a metalhead into a proggy by making him hear some Gentle Giant (I didn't know where to begin at this time) but he now listens to a lot of progressive music. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 20:11
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I've never converted anyone, but I've tried and failed many times. ------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 20:31
| Prog's not Christianity, why do you need to convert people to it? |
Posted By: AllP0werToSlaves
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 21:00
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I never force any of my personal beliefs on anyone, but I got my girlfriend into Camel recently; she loves "The Snow Goose"
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Posted By: samdelrussi
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 21:33
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Among the people who matter,Prog is popular. ------------- Sam Del Russi |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 21:58
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I agree with TODDLER that the implications of rejecting improvisation as a valid means of musicial expression are serious. Perhaps, critics in heartily joining the punk brigade didn't anticipate that jazz too would move off the limelight while still remaining a serious and respected musical form because of this wholly illusory projection that improvisation is pretentious. Just because you can't improvise doesn't mean those who do are pretentious! With regard to timburlane's point regarding a "say it brilliantly, say it in three minutes and make sure you can dance to it" approach, Gentle Giant and Jethro Tull were both capable of writing short and smart songs. Even Genesis on occasion, I mean if somebody would really rather listen to Sweet Home Alabama than I know what I like or Counting Out Time, that's more a matter of taste and not the prog musician's inability to write interesting music in a short song format. But the media defined prog by stuff like Karn Evil 9 and TFTO and people completely bought into that. To an extent, it is also true that a lot of prog listeners subscribe to a "longer is better" approach which I'd personally hesitate to concur with and this lends some 'credibility' to the myth. I have always looked at prog as more an approach to writing music, which doesn't necessarily depend on a certain minimum length, and not necessarily as indiscriminate license to sprawl but the latter is what prog is often taken to be. As for nerdiness, again, no smoke without fire. A lot of prog listeners do buy into the "Pink Floyd is awesome because they don't write love songs" kind of thinking. There's no reason why a love song is in itself such a bad thing. Why should expression of one of the vital human emotions, one that arguably keeps the world going, be deemed invalid? It is just the often cliched and cheesy treatment of love in mainstream pop/rock that people react to but the reaction seems to push people to 'cold', 'intellectual' subjects (read sci fi). I think nerdiness may be at work if a group of people honestly believe that interpretation of normal but profound human emotions is somehow inferior and commonplace and only subjects like winged elephants dancing in the air should be the subject matter of prog. |
Posted By: Majesty
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 22:02
Same here. Mainstream people are waaaaay too close minded when it comes to other genres. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 22:05
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I don't even try to convert people to my religion, why should I convert somebody to Prog? Iván -------------
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 22:19
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Well, when I meet people who actually like music and start to know their tastes (which are few), I do give them recommendations, be it Prog or not, but mainly stuff he wouldn't have dreamed to listen. I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything, just want some people who enjoy art to appreciate some other kinds of art and expand their mind, just like they do with me with other stuff. I did manage, somehow, to make a friend liste to Gates of Delirium among other Prog epics. But I "failed", fortunately though it made him see, at least, that their's much more music than he thinks there is.
There's a friend of mine who's very into acoustic stuff and I recommended him Jethro Tull, he loved them. He probably doesn't listen to them in the same I do (or "we" do), but still it's an accomplishment, he even says that Baker St. Muse is one of the greatest songs he has ever heard.
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Posted By: Earendil
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 22:21
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Maybe I've "sewn some seeds" as the saying goes, and the prog will do the rest
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Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 22:41
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If they're a metalhead, Opeth is the best way to go.
-------------  |
Posted By: Earendil
Date Posted: January 21 2011 at 23:04
| Isn't it popular on this site, therefore it's popular? |
Posted By: Billy Pilgrim
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 02:52
| Why would record labels push music that enhances thought, is emotional, is spiritual. Music that makes you think, and music that helps you grow as a human being. Record labels want you to keep shakin that thing! They want you to keep listening to music that makes you violent, and that pushes drugs and sexism. Aka rap. |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 03:28
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Most people aren't looking for music but for "entertainment", for a quick musical snack that sounds exactly as they want it. No problem at all with that, I don't have much of a clue about painting or literature neither. The people that are looking for music as a form of artistic expression are a minority. And that minority has to be further spread over the many available options: classical, jazz, blues, rock, world, indie, singer songwriters, some of the music featuring on PA and much more... So it's simple logic, low demand and many many options. Nothing to do with intellectual superiority, better taste or whatever. |
Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 04:08
Indie has always fascinated me. People who enjoy indie do so because they want to be different from the mainstream, but evidently don't care about the music. What confuses me, is that i've often seen some of the best new prog bands labeled as indie, which I simply do not understand. -------------
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Posted By: Harold-The-Barrel
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 04:24
Because Prog is far more important ------------- You must be joking.....Take a running jump...... |
Posted By: daslaf
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 05:52
I totally disagree with that ------------- But now my branches suffer And my leaves don't bear the glow They did so long ago |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 06:16
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The Self Flagellation of the Minority Interest Enthusiast: If Prog were popular mainstream music a significant number of you wouldn't listen to it any longer. The smart money would be on you defecting to the outer reaches of the avant garde (or whatever other genre you deem esoteric enough) Just because the herd you belong to is smaller than the biggest one doesn't make you immune to the herd instinct. I see most of these types of thread as being either disingenuous (the lady doth protest too much) or carry transparently rhetorical questions which only serve to reveal the respondents dearth of life experience. (e.g. people who dislike Prog are dumb, unthinking conformists, shallow, reactionary, gullible, materialistic, lack patience and sensitivity, terminally trendy and so hopelessly conditioned that they cannot form their own opinions etc) Of those people I consider close to me, not one has the slightest affection or interest in Prog and would represent the polar opposite of the lazily depicted 'masses' quoted above. My loved ones know full well that I would never attempt to 'convert the heathen' (As this would result in the perfectly justifiable reaction everyone should reserve for front door evangelists everywhere -  WHAACCKKK  ).I also love soccer even more than Prog, but don't go around thinking that baseball, basketball, tennis, ice hockey, rugby or cricket are the sport of choice for plankton with learning difficulties. Similarly, I adore the music of the Velvet Underground, Wall of Voodoo, Cure, Banshees, Magazine, Television, Patti Smith, PIL, Bob Dylan, The Smiths, Bunnymen etc but do not consider such to be at some lower rung on the evolutionary ladder than Yes, ELP, Genesis, Crimson et al. Too many bulls-eyes being awarded for merely hitting the wall round here... -------------
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 06:26
I am printing out a copy of your post reply. I know I will forget these interesting points you have made due to my busy home life and I want to bring these points out to a couple of old friends. I am very impressed with your truthful statements.
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Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 06:34
Although I'm sure we don't want to admit it, that's definitely true, some of the pull of listening to non-mainstream music, although I enjoy it immensely, is that i feel like a member of an 'elitist group', (totally unfounded and pretentious I know, but I'm being honest) -------------
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 06:48
I admire your candour, it's very refreshing  and I think we would all admit to a weakness for the rarefied heights of the mountain top from time to to time. -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 08:37
Flattered!  |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 08:46
Reminds me of somebody telling me that KC is the best of the accessible prog bands. I was  because he did not have ITCOTCK or Discipline in mind when he said that. I asked him how it was that he found them accessible and he said he just called the more well known bands "accessible". Hmmm..... I personally prefer to move to some other scene or just listen to my favourites more and more to see what they reveal on more focused attention (seems to be a crime these days not to be listening to lots and lots of music!) once I have penetrated a little beyond the second tier. Chances are I miss some good or even great bands but I would then be enjoying the work of great artists in some other genre. Never understood from day one the obsession with obscurities. I mean, I understand why collectors would want obscurities in their treasure chest but not why obscure albums are so much better. Generally, bands that few among hardcore followers of a scene (and not the public at large or press) are aware of are obscure for a reason. Of course, the power of "I know what you don't know" cannot be underestimated. |
Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 09:44
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I think converting people to prog is not a matter of wanting to spread prog among the world, it's more of wanting to make people like music in wich real musicians plays original compositions rather than pop sh*t. Don't you aggree. And we also need to respect other styles that has the same criterias. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 10:16
First of all, real musicians also play original compositions that get called pop, like Stevie Wonder or Tori Amos, er... Also, why is it that people who like jazz don't necessarily like prog? So it's not so simple as that. |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 20:41
| I find the main difference is that most people don't really "listen" to music, but follow the beat and dance to it instead. Prog, and progressive music in general, is intended to be listened to. The vast majority of people just like a catchy tune and a good dance beat, which is OK by me, but in the case of prog, the intent is to write music you will enjoy by carefully listening to it, analyzing the melodies, progressions, dynamics, etc. Once people understand this, is easier to explain what progressive music is all about, to people who are not into it or don't understand what it is. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 21:03
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You can't convert people to prog. You can only expose them to it and hope they might appreciate it. If someone doesn't, don't waste your time. Trying to force someone to like something is pointless.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 21:11
I agree. You can't convince me that what you said is right, it's pointless to force me.
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Posted By: ProcolWho?
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 21:25
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I think the easy answer is , that the majority of the population have the taste and sensibilities of 7 years olds. Nothing new about that. Why not ask why more people don't attend museums, appreciate classical music, or fine art of any form? Rather than look for reasons to blame Prog for its lack of popularity , look first at those that don't get it. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 21:29
OK I will have to shoot you now. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: January 22 2011 at 23:22
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I've said it before and I will say it again: popularity is a disease that unerringly corrupts all it touches. Be glad that the majority of (dare I say the best?) prog has not been infected.
------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow"> https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 02:34
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To quote Devin Townsend: 'and music? Well it's just entertainment folks!' In other words, each to their own, music is supposed to be enjoyable and does it really matter what kind of thing you find enjoyable or what part of the music we enjoy? -------------
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Posted By: Old_Wise_Owl
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 03:33
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This statement is only partially true. The truth is that prog is stronger than in years. Let's get the facts straight first: The last 5 years has seen Dream Theater, Porcupine Tree, Opeth and Mars Volta entering the charts for the first time. It has seen Marillion and Mike Oldfield make a comeback. And Rush and Peter Gabriel were there all the time. I also now see Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree playing in major concert venues when they tour (and it was even in my local newspaper, a small article, but nevertheless) So in this sense prog must be stronger than in years. And that's good news!!! Now let's put things in context: - It's nowhere close to the sales levels and media attention that Lady Gaga, Shakira, Madonna etc get. - It's still nowhere near the levels of popularity that Genesis, Yes, Floyd, ELP, Tull etc enjoyed in the 70s. So why is this? - In the age of PTP file-sharing prog fans can be seen as more loyal. - I believe we buy our favourite bands albums to a larger degree than average. - I also believe that prog fans are more passionate about their music than average, and as a result buy more albums. - The concept of having their fans financing the recording of a new album, launched by Marillion, has worked exceptionally well in the prog arena I think the record companies, under pressure these days, are reluctantly starting to take notice of this. Reluctantly, I say, because the record companies prefer artists these days, which they can get the full "media promotion package". The major commercial artists these days are not only about music, it's about videos, TV sitcoms, movies, computer games, clothes, perfumes and other fashion gear. This is one of the ways record companies are trying to compensate for lost record sales. And this is also why I believe prog bands will not be enjoying the attention they did in the 70s. Because these days you are expected to look good on primetime TV as well. But as stated above, now prog has a small but firm slice of the cake. Let's try and defend that one!
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 04:50
I disagree, and that's probably why I don't like Townsend much. I try to look for music that wants to be more then just entertainment. |
Posted By: TheOppenheimer
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 06:28
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popular refers to the majority. the majority of people does NOT relate, feel identified, or simply like Prog music. thus, prog music is not popular. end of topic. ------------- //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// A veces es cuestión de esperar, y tomarte en silencio. |
Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 06:59
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I have a feeling that one of the explanations for the huge success of the seventies prog bands is that they created very good melodies. Amid the interesting arrangements, creative playing and fun time signatures there was almost always a hummable tune. Very few of todays prog bands seem to put much emphasis on this aspect. Porcupine Tree and Tool do, but I have yet to hear a good song from Dream Theater (don't shoot me, I haven't heard everything, I might find something eventually). The playing is often great but good song writing is lacking. |
Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 07:39
Blatant stereotyping will not really help this discussion... -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 07:46
I have often played classic prog to listeners who are not into prog, it's very hit or miss and more often miss and hit with them. The musical climate must have been very different then from now to account for prog's popularity. That said, it is true that immediacy is not the greatest strength of modern prog, at least not among the more well known bands. If there are bands today that make very accessible prog but are not particularly popular even in prog circles, it is even less likely general listeners would hear of them. There are many factors that go into this but most importantly, modern prog, again I refer to the relatively well known bands, is less influenced by classic rock which definitely rubbed off on the 70s scene and much more by AOR/arena rock and this perhaps rob the music of a sense of adventure and, combined with the increased emphasis on technicality, gives the music a rather clinical and cold feel. Weirdness also seems to be a much more important consideration today and I have my doubts on just how much highly memorable (hummable as you said) prog songs would be appreciated in the current climate. It is certainly not reasonable to expect weirdness to be popular, is it, I mean, even I like it only when it is backed by serious compositional brilliance. |
Posted By: Big Ears
Date Posted: January 23 2011 at 14:43
| We can't all be the same. Some people like boy bands, girl bands, ambient, muzack, disco, reggae, trad jazz, electro, indie, death metal, punk rock, hard core and avant garde. Some people even like rap. They are all unfathomable to me. I am sure that if Britain's Got the X Factor Popstars recorded a cow farting, some people would play it in their cars with the windows wound down (in a quiet residential area). |