revamp the genres
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73422
Printed Date: December 02 2024 at 10:53
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: revamp the genres
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Subject: revamp the genres
Date Posted: November 20 2010 at 20:31
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Something we were just discussing in the shred room, the current organization of sub-genres on PA leaves a lot to be desired. -experimental/post metal has just become a dumping ground for bands that don't quite fit into post/math rock, prog-metal, extreme/tech metal, or RIO/Avant. Therefore, I propose experimental metal and post-metal become 2 separate sub-genres, and we add in another one, avant-metal. One result of this would be that people looking for post-metal bands can actually find them in the category, instead of digging through piles of progressive black metal bands, avant-garde bands, noise bands, etc. We would also be able to move bands that don't quite belong in RIO/Avant (e.g. Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, Mr. Bungle) into Avant-metal; things like Diablo Swing Orchestra (whom we were having trouble categorizing some time ago) could go into experimental metal, as well as those black/folk/ethnic metal bands (Senmuth, Orphaned Land, Agalloch, etc.) Then, there's the problem of artists that, due to their extensive discographies, defy categorization (I think the most well-known case would be Frank Zappa)... (from the Shred Room, edited somewhat for content)
I fully don't expect this to get anywhere, but one can always dream |
Triceratopsoil wrote:Replies:
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: November 20 2010 at 20:37
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I think that the addition of more 'metal' subgenres was debated and really isn't something the site is looking for.
Anyway, I really don't have time to discuss the rest of your suggestion, not a bad idea though.
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: November 20 2010 at 20:42
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Not being on the inside I have no clue... But we all hear about the epic PMT log jams and insane quantities of work. There is one PMT that covers all, if I'm correct. Maybe a Prog Metal team, one for experimental/post and one for tech/extreme would make the load easier. Also I do like the idea of splitting experimental and post up. Post metal IMHO is a fairly exclusive and specialized sub genre. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: November 20 2010 at 23:32
oh, and they should get rid of prog related |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: November 20 2010 at 23:52
 ------------- |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: November 20 2010 at 23:55
What's wrong with that? Don't you want to be on the I Wish I Was King Crimson -prog team? |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: November 21 2010 at 00:03
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: November 21 2010 at 06:06
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I don't think splitting the three metal categories further on until there is one category per genre is a good idea because there are a lot of metal genres (progressive ones of course). Anything in between just one metal category on PA and one category per genre is arbitrary, and between the arbitrary number of 3 and 5 categories I definitely prefer having 3. IMO what the PMT should do is to write in the hearder of each band biography what genre does the band belong to (making sure that genre is defined in the category definition). This is the simplest solution to a problem that I've given thought to in the past; in the Post/Math we have the same problem, like people calling Math Rock bands "Post Rock" just because these two genres share the same PA category and people don't know enough about them to make the difference. RE the Eclectic issue, that was a fun read Colin, but I can't take it as a worthy proposal  |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 23 2010 at 14:35
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I really don't feel like this site needs more metal subgenres.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 23 2010 at 14:39
| Zappa to Eclectic ain't happening, we've been down that road |
Posted By: Oliverum
Date Posted: November 29 2010 at 06:08
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[QUOTE=JJLehto]
[QUOTE=Triceratopsoil]
oh, and they should get rid of prog related I never understood the purpose of this either, to be honest. For me the logic behind this seems a little flawed. If a member of prog band makes a pop music album, then the music is not prog related, the artist is (kind of)  . Therefore the genre does not describe the music. I mean, Metallica and Queen on PA? If cut down of genres is needed then this should be the one to go, imho. ------------- All the best freaks are here, please stop staring at me. Marillion - Freaks (1988). |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: November 29 2010 at 07:33
You guys have nothing better to do then disrespect others work? ------------- |
Posted By: Oliverum
Date Posted: November 29 2010 at 08:23
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You guys have nothing better to do then disrespect others work? [/QUOTE] That was not the point of course. ------------- All the best freaks are here, please stop staring at me. Marillion - Freaks (1988). |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 29 2010 at 08:58
I thought it was a little crazy when metal got a three way split, but it was explained and I never complained. Besides which if you want to see more metal subs, we have a place for you and that's metal archives. Everything metal prog or otherwise.  We used to have a sub called art rock and it got a three way split. These kinds of changes are never made without careful thought and debate. As far as getting rid of prog related, a lot of people have worked hard writing reviews and it would hardly be fair to flush their work down the toilet. I should also add that controversial artists are never added without careful thought and debate. Finally, if you read the current definition of PR I think it perfectly explains why we have it, so there. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: November 30 2010 at 01:05
Queen have clear prog elements in their music. ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: November 30 2010 at 03:16
| I agree that this needs to be done. My biggest problem is that Italy is a genre which has never made the slightest bit of sense to me. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 30 2010 at 11:32
I disagree, I suppose, because I consider "Berlin school" a more appropriate name for what we pass of as Progressive Electronic here. Makes more sense than not including Aphex Twin. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: November 30 2010 at 11:59
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This has been debated ad nauseum. Categorization of music is always an imprecise affair. Adjustments are made (I applaud the move of Kayo Dot to avant) in a fluid and ongoing manner.
Where some modern "straight" prog bands get placed sometimes is wierd. Beardfish is eclectic, Frost* is neo, Frogg Cafe is jazz-fusion, Umphrey's McGee is crossover. They all sound more alike than the flagship bands of each category.
I am not for more than 3 categories of metal, though I do more reviews in metal than anything else. What we call them may change, but the current attempt is probably about as good as it is going to get. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: November 30 2010 at 12:43
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How about these categories:
Symphonic Disco
Hillbilly Prog
Silent Prog
Children's Prog
Iatragenic Prog
Special Prog
Distantly Prog Related
Not Prog, But Nobody Likes It, So Maybe It Should Be Here Prog
------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 30 2010 at 13:00
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You are forgetting the most important 1) High-Pitched Tibetan Yodelling Prog 2) Gangsta Prog 3) Tech/Extreme Hip Hop 4) Not Prog but I'm Open Minded so lets Add Them Prog Iván
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: November 30 2010 at 13:19
| I know this has been said before but I really think RPI needs to be abolished as a categorisation. There's just no basis for a country being a genre and it looks ridiculous. |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 30 2010 at 13:49
^ let's have discussions about discussions ...............really the genre's look fine ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: November 30 2010 at 14:16
you've forgotten Shamanism Related Prog, Ivan------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 12:15
Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 12:41
Can't believe it, but I agree with you A genre is defined by a style not by a territorial demarcation, we are lumping Symphonic, Neo Prog, Eclectic, Fusion, Crossover, etc bands in one sack called RPI only because the authors are for the same country. There's no more reason (except number of bands), to have RPI than too have:
This caused problems with my good friend Micky (that we solved after the great RPI wars ), but still I believe this is absurd.Iván
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 13:20
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RPI is there because, even though a lot of it could be categorised as symphonic, eclectic, and the rest, it had, and has, a very distinctive Italian flavour. However, there is actually an argument, going on from the post Ivan made, to categorise music by countries/continents, rather than sub genres. "Classic" 70's prog such as Genesis, yes, VDGG, Crimson, camel, and the rest were, by and large, very English in their outlook. Scandinavian prog, which I love, has a very distinctive sound. I would argue that US prog such as Echolyn, Kansas, and others also have sounds which are peculiarly American in flavour. Recent stuff such as The Decemberists is basically American folk with a prog flavour. I actually don't think there is much sense in having a separate neo prog category. What we call neo started off as 1980's new wave of prog, undoubtedly influenced by the classic bands, but to describe, for example, Marillion as such now makes no sense at all. They are a very English band who have sounded bugger all like Genesis since about 1984. In addition, the excellent wave of Polish prog coming out, again, retains a distinctive identity all of its own, no matter what sub genre we place artists in. We tie ourselves up in knots on the site about sub genres, and it can be exceptionally frustrating at times. I recently wrote an article about the Mars Hollow album, and mentioned that it was pure symphonic prog to my ears. The specialists on that team obviously disagreed, but therein lies the problem with sub genres. I think it might be time for a major rethink, and countries to split artists might be a way forward. I'll go watch telly now  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 13:44
Quite true. There is also an argument to be made about Brazilian prog bands. A considerable amount of them mixed progressive rock with regional music, such as samba, bossa nova, and a number of regional folk styles. And, of course, there are the ones that pulled things out of nowhere, like Os Mutantes, who, apart from their late 70's stuff, have an exclusive and unique sound and are one of the most influencing bands in the country's rock scene. Some bands from that style: O Terço, Os Mutantes, A Barca do Sol, Som Imaginário, Clube da Esquina (even though they are not listed), 14 bis, Som Nosso de Cada Dia and Secos e Molhados (not listed also). -------------   
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 13:53
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A very interesting investment in time and effort by Moris, some time ago
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=60508&FID=12 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=60508&FID=12 ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 14:14
^ Hadn't seen this before... great work, Moris. 
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Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: December 01 2010 at 14:21
I don't think Textbook has thought his argument through.
 |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 03:51
| It's just ludicrous to say that music produced within a particular border area is magically different from all others. Like if Italy conquered Germany, German prog bands would now be RPI. And bands sounding exactly like RPI from other countries are not RPI. It's indefensible. This is not music, it's geography. |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 04:11
| Okay, I guess you're right. Once we get rid of RPI, how about Krautrock and Indo? And hey, Canterbury isn't even a country, it's got to go. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 05:18
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Geography does play an important part in the formation of any musical movement and has done for centuries (ref: Viennese Classicism, Mersey Beat, Detroit Sound, etc.). When that movement or style of music breaks free of its local environment and becomes widespread it tends to lose its localised name. Math Rock began in the American Midwest (the Rust Belt); Thrash Metal became popular first in the Bay Area of San Francisco and was also known as Bay Area Thrash and while few (if any) bands ever came from the town of Canterbury it has long been associated with a select core of bands and their offshoots. RPI is a branch of symphonic prog that is unique to Italy and the Italian language. Its influence has spread to other Mediterranean countries, notably Greece, Spain and Israel (while not being "symphonic" Ahvak has noticeable RPI influences), though the genre and bands themselves has remained confined to one country. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 05:20
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I agree with you about Canterbury scene. I partly agree about Kraut and Indo but I've seen people argue that they are stylistic, not a nationality thing, though I've also seen people go "Well the thing is this artist's music is Krautrock but they're not German so we can't put them there" so it does have his problems. RPI really does seem to be "prog from Italy" though.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 05:59
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Well, there's the thing - Krautrock is not all the same and is even more localised to regions within Germany, with München bands (eg Amon Düül) being completely unrelated to Berlin (Tangerine Dream, Ash Ra Tempel ) or Köln bands (Can, Neu!, Kraftwerke, Cluster) etc. not all German Krautrock bands play Kosmische Musik. not all German bands end up in Krautrock (eg Eloy, Grobschnitt, Triumvirat) while some French, Japanese, Swiss and English bands do get placed in Krautrock (and, personally, I would argue that Steven Wilson's IEM should be in Krautrock too).
All genres get diluted as more bands get added, this is natural, but at its core RPI is fairly recognisable as being of an Italian flavour (even with English lyrics) since the Classical music bedrock on which it is formed is of the Italian traditional Classical and Folk roots rather than just the native language or nationality of the artists. Again, like Krautrock, movements within RPI are more regional than just being confined to one country, with musical sub-styles centring around bands from distinct regions or cities within Italy (Tuscany, Rome, Naples, Turin etc.).
This regionality can also be observed in other subgenres (notably Symphonic and of course Prog Folk) and in the past we have considered the idea of noting localised "movements" within subgenres to highlight the degree of synergy and cross-fertilisation between bands that share a common heritage (even if they only sharted the same gig-circuit). ------------- What? |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 06:11
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Hehe, funny thing is that there is only ONE Indo/Raga Prog from India :-) http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?ssubgenres=35&syears=&scountries=93&sminratings=1&smaxratings=0&sminavgratings=1&smaxresults=100&x=91&y=4#list - http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?ssubgenres=35&syears=&scountries=93&sminratings=1&smaxratings=0&sminavgratings=1&smaxresults=100&x=91&y=4#list All the rest are from mostly States, Kingdom and Germany ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 08:12
| There is an obvious common and specific sound shared by all the bands RPI, Krautrock or Canterbury, I feel sorry for who's been listening to said bands and doesn't hear it. |
Posted By: Todd
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 11:43
Nice post, Dean.
RPI is certainly not "prog from Italy." Currently RPI has about 265 bands, compared to roughly 475 bands from Italy on the site. And we as an RPI team are still in process of reviewing the bands currently listed as RPI to see if they would better fit in other subs. We work pretty hard on keeping the sub consistent--if you'd like to see the criteria, please read the definition on the sub-genre page.
That being said, bickering about subs takes up way too much time. I guess we like to pick our nits, so to speak. But in the meantime, back to the music . . . ------------- "I have seen the broken sky turn blue." http://gnosis2000.net/ratertodd.shtml" rel="nofollow - My Gnosis Ratings |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 14:24
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^ But RPI is certainly consisting of Italian bands only, unlike Krautrock, which has bands that are (excuse me) not only "Krauts".
------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 19:52
| Exactly. Being Italian seems to be a pre-requisite for being RPI and that's simply not a musical factor. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 19:55
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*sigh* ------------- What? |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 21:07
Raga rock is generally a sort of European or Euro-American music that is influenced by Indian music, even if that influence may seem superficial or amateur. I like Indian music, both popular and classical, and I like some of the better raga-rock bands too, but raga-rock and Indian music are not the same thing, and most raga-rock bands will usually be from Europe or the states. |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 21:10
The way I see it with Aphex Twin is the lack of rock. Nothing I've heard from AT has elements of rock IMO. Obviously I haven't heard everything.
Of course, the response is but neither is *insert "Berlin School" music act here* or *ditto*. Well thats possible. I know even less about PE than I do Aphex twin.  ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 21:14
I don't understand why Merzbow is not in Progressive Electronic. ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 21:29
No longer a branch of Symphonic Dean, even when I don't agree, Italian Symphonic made more sense than RPI, because this new CATEGORY (Can't be a genre, because we have Symph, Neo, Fusion, Folk and even Hard bands in RPI), leads to comnfusion.
It's absurd to have a Jazz, a Symphonic and a Neo Prog bands al together when they don't have absolutely nothing musically in common except maybe that their members (in some cases not even all) were born inside the Italian peninsula, because some sing in English and even in Latin.
Iván
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 22:03
Not enough noise.  ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 22:34
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****SIGH**** ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 23:45
| what in the hell hath happened to my thread? |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: December 04 2010 at 00:11
What happens to every PA thread? |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: December 04 2010 at 07:15
| Nearly went through a blue ink war... nearly. |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: December 04 2010 at 07:19
LOL, everybody knows that prog = drama @ da interwebs. -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 04 2010 at 08:07
Destroy all sub genres, but do it on Barking Pumpkin Records. 
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: December 04 2010 at 08:41
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------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 04 2010 at 12:25
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in the meantime Marty, here's a picture for you to crayon:  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: December 04 2010 at 22:20
*Whispers*
I'm going to destroy all the Frank Zappa master tapes. I'm going to do it. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 04 2010 at 22:34
hadn't expected the U.S. to have by far the most bands listed |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: December 04 2010 at 23:54
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^ A debateable point but IMO the USA/Canada has lead the way for prog in the last 10-15 years. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |