Is it all about the music - really?
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Topic: Is it all about the music - really?
Posted By: progpositivity
Subject: Is it all about the music - really?
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 20:38
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To what extent do pre-conceived notions, expectations and external non-musical variables affect our perceptions of, and our subsequent value judgements of - songs, albums, bands, and music in general?
I would expect most good prog fans to initially bristle at the implications of such a question. After all, we are a fiercely independent breed! We don't shift with every wind of change that comes from the fashion-conscious world of pop music! We listen for *substance* and there are very legitimate reasons why we like the music that we do.
While I'm not disagreeing with any of those statements, please bear with me for just a moment to dig a little bit deeper - to see whether there might be just more to this question than immediately meets the eye - or the ear... Speaking strictly from the viewpoint of my own personal introspection, over the years I've become increasingly convinced that some of my early impressions and perceptions of music can indeed vary - sometimes widely - based upon any number of different variables, some of which are not music related at all! I must confess that this has been a bit of a surprising, even uncomfortable, personal revelation for me. I have always considered myself to be a fair, open-minded and rather unpartial person. (I still do. Perhaps that is a contributing factor to why I am able to now come to the conclusion that extraneous variables are indeed very capable of coloring my first impressions and general perceptions?)
Although it is well documented that pre-conceived expectations do, in fact, affect subjective appraisals in any number of different situations, my feelings about music are experienced so deeply and so personally, that the notion of other variables significantly having affected my overall value judgements about an artist or an album (like whether I had a headache or not the night I first heard it) seemed very counter-intuitive to me. But I now honestly do believe that to some extent external variables do factor in to the equation. Furthermore, once a first impressional "imprint" has been firmly planted in my mind, it becomes impossible for me to ever truly "hear" that item 100% free of the influence from that first listening session. Sure, I can re-evaluate the item, but I will never be a truly "blank slate" for that song, album or artist ever again. Certainly we can all agree that when an artist we've loved dearly for 10+ years comes out with a new album, we listen to it differently than we do to a promotional item from a brand new band?
Or, which of us, if an artist is really nice and personally invites us backstage to their concert, does not then find themselves naturally listening to that artist's promotional album a little more attentively or open-mindedly than we would to the standard unsolicited items that arrive in our mailboxes daily?
If these variables do affect our perceptions, what might they be? To what extent are we able to recognize them? Or do they even matter? ------------- Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7! http://www.progpositivity.com |
Replies:
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 20:51
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I'll admit that I go in for "weird music" a lot, mainly because I like it, but an ultra-limited edition or some really cool cover art/backstory/hipster cache sure don't hurt. A big part of my love of music is simply the "collecting" aspect of it, so having something unusual and interesting really makes me happy.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 21:20
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For me it really is all about the music. I don't seek the approval of others based on what I like to listen to or play.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 21:30
| I second Slarti. I'm quite cheerful about falling into line with others here about how wonderful Opeth or Jethro Tull or The Who are because they really are, and also railing against someone like Transatlantic that I find vomitous and despicable despite most people loving them. Or quietly championing stuff no one else seems to notice like Mansun's Six. Or perhaps the best example is my continual championing of hip-hop on a forum that is often openly hostile to it. It's all about whether it's good or not, nothing else. |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 01:39
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I don't really feel like I seek the approval of others in any way. i listened to prog for a long time before realising I was listening to "prog rock". So I didn't really have some pre-conceived notion of prog rock or anything when discovering and choosing it. ------------- Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell? I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance. |
Posted By: progpositivity
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 16:35
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Perhaps I should clarify. Social conformity and peer pressure are not the factors I'm alluding to. I would not at all expect very many proggers to generally fall into line with others musically. I would not expect them feel a strong desire for the approval of others when it comes to what music they like. If anything, I would expect them to have a little bit of "maverick" in them. I would expect them to enjoy and sometimes even take some measure of pride in how they are a little different from others when it comes to music.
The tangential factors which I'm alluding to are more like the following one... How much does an album cover change the way we hear the music on the album (if any)? There are many others, but here is one example. Perhaps this is a good place to start:
For example, although cover-art is clearly not an element of music, I can honestly say that I have given albums a chance based solely upon their cover art. Some such (ill advised?) ventures have even resulted in great discoveries!
I remember, however, buying a mid 1970's album based upon cover art which reminded me somewhat of Return to Forever's "Romantic Warrior". Surprisingly, the album turned out to be more of a folksy / bluegrass musical affair!! (Often the notes on the back of an album reveal the instrumentation, but even then it can get tricky sometimes...) Needless to say, I was not particularly pleased with the album.
Looking back on it, however, the album was not really quite all "that bad" - if taken as a folksy bluegrass type of effort. Had I expected a folksy bluegrass record, I may have even been somewhat pleased by it. But I didn't expect that type record and I really was NOT pleased with it! To some extent, my expectations had been formed based upon its packaging "set me up" to have a bad listening experience.
What would motivate a record company to advertise a folksy instrumental band with a medieval knight in really decked out shining armor? Perhaps I'm missing a core element of the folksy crowd as a target market?
Once again, this particular example had nothing to do with me wanting to "fit in" or to "be like" someone else. It had everything to do with how a "non-music" factor contributed to a pre-conceived expectation for the music, ultimately resulting in me having a *bad* listening experience when - in retrospect - I think the record did have some redeeming qualities.
There are many non-music factors that I honestly believe exert at least some measure of sub-concious influence upon how we perceive music. But I realize that that way we hear and experience music is so personal and often results in such a strong imprint within our psyche, that it is hard for us to objectively entertain the idea of "non-musical" variables having factored into the equation along the way. The entire notion will, by its very nature, be more than a bit counter-intuitive to many of us, so the thread may not get much immediate traction.
Perhaps cover art surprises would be an easier place to start? ------------- Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7! http://www.progpositivity.com |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 17:01
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I get where you are coming from, and to a degree, I can agree with what you are saying. Mood and emotion determine how we receive a piece of music and mood and emotion can be determined by a myriad of external factors both physical and mental. While music can alter your mood, you have to be receptive to it to begin with, or at least prepared to meet it half-way or it will make you "worse" or (eek!) have no effect at all. Cover art can do that - I've Pure Reasons Revolution's Hammer and Anvil sat on my desk as I type - it's been there all day, unplayed since it arrived in the post. I want to hear it, but I don't like the cover - it's bleak and austere and today was a bright sunny day - the music could be the brightest, sunniest music that could have been the perfect soundtrack to this afternoon, but I don't know that, (I've not read the reviews, if you don't want to know the score, look away now), the cover says not - the cover says wait for a dull rainy day - I can't imagine a million bright ambassadors of morning will be wafting from my speakers when I do finally get to play it. ------------- What? |
Posted By: progpositivity
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 17:32
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Yes, Dean - that is very much in line with where I'm coming from... I'll be interested in what the CD actually sounds like to you when you do get to it. (Of course, the Hawthorne Effect comes into play somewhat at this point. Now that we have talked about it, even this conversation may impact the way in which you approach or experience that CD. Then again perhaps I'm over-estimating the impact of non-musical variables...) ------------- Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7! http://www.progpositivity.com |
Posted By: progpositivity
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 17:33
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When I was music director at a College FM Rock Radio station (way back in the dark ages before playlists were totally pre-programmed into computers and I could allow the station DJ’s at least some latitude to select a few of the songs they played), one of my responsibilities was – nonetheless - to go through the plethora of promotional records which were sent to us by bands and labels in order to determine which ones might be of interest to our listenership and thus worthy of me issuing the “you must play this” edict, placing it into what is probably most easily described as either "heavy", "medium" or "light" rotation on the stations schedule. On days in which I only had only a couple of albums to check out - and had few other pressing responsibilities to attend to – some of these albums got a very high quality audition. On days in which I had a mountain of discs to review, however, each album received far less "grace". In the extreme, I remember dropping the needle on records by "unknown artists" and if the first song on the first side of the album not make an immediate impression upon me within 15 to 30 seconds, that was "all she wrote" for that album. Sometimes I gave another song on the album a chance. Often, I moved on to the next disc. This may sound callous, even appallingly smug or elitist to many independent artists out there but such were the real-life constraints in which I existed. I also had on-air news responsibilities, DJ’s not showing up for their shifts, promos to cut, etc… Besides, I can assure you that I probably gave those albums a more attentive “chance” to “wow” me than many other Music Directors. At some stations, if an artist wasn’t already “hot” on the College Music Journal charts, they didn’t get a chance at all! At other stations, they were so “free form” that they basically fell into a stack of oblivion, only noticed if one of the DJ’s was particularly motivated and interested in new promos. Some of the smaller record labels would hire what sounded like college age girls to call Music Directors at radio stations so they could attempt to talk us into playing certain new albums from new bands. (Perhaps they were actually 62 years of age and weighted 370 pounds but they sounded cute and even managed to sound like they thought the Music Director was such a hip and cool guy…). Anyway, I'm proud to report that despite how cute the caller sounded and no matter how flirty or funny she was, she did not talk me into adding a band which I had already determined not to play to our rotation... Even so, if the stack was 40 high on my desk and she was on the phone asking me what I thought about it, I would put it at the top of the stack... It would get a more attentive audition. And – there are no two ways about it in my mind. A more attentive listen gives music a much better chance to make an impression. So I guess the non-music factors affecting my perception in this example were: 1) How busy or stressed out I was, 2) The quantity of competing albums in my ‘queue’, and 3) the probably overweight chick who sounded really cute over the telephone trying to leverage my oversized DJ ego to (sometimes successfully) get me to pay more attention to the small label’s promo. ------------- Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7! http://www.progpositivity.com |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 17:54
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I too get where you are coming from......for me visual was/still is huge for me. I so rermember back in the day at Tower Records, flipping thru vinyl bins for HOURS....then bingo something on an album cover or the title just struc me and I would buy it, not ever hearing a review. Actually when I was younger I don't think I even cared or knew what reviews were. Sure I bought the metal mags and rock mags and read them cover to cover, but I didn't feel like I was reading a "review".
There are so many albums I bought and had never heard one track, of course most of it was obscure but a lot of it was just new releases that had never been played on FM radio yet.
I am one who pays very little attention to the reviews here, not from a bad way, but just because I still feel like I want the new experience of a fresh listen.
I guess to me this is my non-musical variable......hope this makes sense, cause I get what you are trying to say.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 18:26
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It's an interesting idea certainly but I suspect that the heart of the matter is our fear of feeling dissolving into fact (a potted description of our schizoid construction) and a realisation that never sits comfortably with the humanoid critter i.e. that complete 'objectivity' is our pet delusion I've been saying this for a long time (so stop me if you've heard this one before  ) but when we describe any phenomenon we learn more about the observer than the observed. Read any review for an album on this site and you will learn more about the listener than the heard.Some replies have stated that visual stimulus is important in colouring our perceptions and I think this is very true e.g. is there some element in say, a PA member's avatar that very subtly fashions our responses? Sore head, must sleep. ------------- 
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Posted By: progpositivity
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 19:03
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Thanks Catcher10. It is probably "just as well" that you didn't pay any attention to those reviews. I think I paid "too much" attention to them. I really let them bother me when I was a teenager. The rock press especially seemed to disdain Rush during their proggier phase in the 1970's. ------------- Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7! http://www.progpositivity.com |
Posted By: progpositivity
Date Posted: October 22 2010 at 19:14
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More "non-musical" factors that have affected my perceptions of music:
Looking back on my teenage years, I went to a ton of concerts. At many of them I heard new bands warming up. I didn't always buy an album by the back-up band but I often did. Clearly the musical performance of the backup band was a factor. After all, I didn't blindly rush out to automatically buy albums by every single back-up band I saw in concert.
Even so, looking back on it, I think the mere act of seeing them perform "live" made me much more likely to go out and buy their album. As much as I love music, if I really try to look at it objectively, this was not entirely a musical matter. A lot of my tendency to go buy that bands album - even to become a "fan" of that band - had to do with the fun atmosphere, the great light show, etc. Buying the album helped me more vividly remember not only their musical performance - but also the entire package of having attended their show.
Beyond that, sometimes I even developed a sympathetic kind of (illusory of course) affiliation with this younger new backup band. I felt like I kind of "knew" them just from having attended their concert and ended up wanted to support many of them. (These were large venues before my days of actually meeting and interviewing bands - so there really was not any personal connection with the musicians - just a subjective affinity from having seen them perform...)
------------- Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7! http://www.progpositivity.com |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 24 2010 at 00:31
Growing up on music that was in substance, viz, in terms of the quality of vocal melodies or chord progressions or instrumentation in general, great but accompanied by cliched 'romantic' lyrics and awkward visuals (I am talking about Indian film music), I have been conditioned out of paying much attention to either the visual aspect or lyrics. It's not that I won't appreciate good lyrics or good artwork but if the music speaks to me, I don't care about these things. It is very difficult to explain why this works for me unless you are in the same boat but when there are a million things going on musically like in a good Gentle Giant album  , it is difficult for me to stop focusing on that and pay attention to the lyrics. I think conditioning, the kind of music you have been exposed to play a very big role in how you perceive music and what kind of emotions you like. A lot of pop listeners cannot take rock/metal energy and fire, while some rock listeners can be dismissive of 'mellow' music (which these days seems to be anything played on acoustic or even non-distorted electric). For me, whether the band is commercial or not, whether the GENRE is commercial, whether the themes are anti-social or romantic don't matter because none of these things improve or decrease my liking for the music. If the music is not good, how anti social it is or what kind of cultural impact it had/has on society at large will not get me to like it. I also don't particularly lean to one kind of emotions because I am more interested in how well the artist is able to render the given emotions. There will be some element of partiality towards spirituality and pathos for me, but some element of partiality or preference is inevitable and even desirable, as long as you don't get obsessive about it. After all, music is listened to to derive pleasure from unless you are working on some academic music research.
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: October 24 2010 at 07:06
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Music first and foremost
then lyrics
then conceptual framework
then band reputation
then album content and covers
then overall style and atmoshere
thats how i judge bands usually
tho it varies considerably ------------- 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 24 2010 at 07:07
Have I misunderstood you here for I would think overall style is part of 'music'? |
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 12:01
The answer to this question is always always always yes, for anyone, not just myself (unless you haven't actually seen the artwork of course
 ). It's not in our hands either; we can make a concious attempt to ignore the artwork when thinking about and evaluating the music, but any success this generates is likely to be in our mind only. See, the eyes and ears are so closely linked, and it is almost impossible not to have something visual in your brain when listening to music, not necessarily a picture, it could just be a generation of colour or shapes, and it might be so deep that you don't even know it's there. In some cases, I personally see the album cover itself, very clearly ('Dark Side of the Moon' and 'Lark's Tongues in Aspic' being good examples). Sometimes I see general colour schemes (Yes's 'Relayer' has many browny-grey moments, certainly a result of the album cover). Sometimes I see nothing in particular, but if I was asked to repesent a certain song with a colour, could easily do so.So in answer to your question, the artwork plays a big part in your experience of music, although it probably doesn't add or take away from the actual quality. But potentially, certain colours may alter the mood or sound of the songs. I see 'Wish You Were Here' as being very well-produced and clean, but could that be an illusion created by the fact that the artwork is mostly white? And do I dislike 'Love Beach' more than I should, purely because of that cringeworthy front image? Maybe 'Close to the Edge' is so successful because it is a mere block of green, forcing thoughts of a tropical and rich nature (imagine if it was red fading into black, and how different the music would seem).
I hope my rambling makes some kind of sense; if this psychological effect had a name I could research it! ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: progpositivity
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 18:07
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To what extent are we really aware of the variety of factors affecting our responses to the music that we hear?
Is it possible that a perceived negative (or positive) quality about a prog band or artist can color our judgements of other, totally unrelated attributes of that same artist? If so, how "self-aware" would we tend to be about this phenomenon as it was happening?
I suggest that not only is it possible that a perceived negative (or positive) quality about a prog band or artist can color our judgements of other, totally unrelated attributes of that same artist. It is highly probable. And we often could be very unaware of the extent to which this happens every day!
Example #1
If I intensely dislike the maudelin singing style of a band's vocalist, I may become more likely to start perceiving the overall quality of the band's songwriting as inferior. I may begin to notice little imperfections in the performances that I would not have noticed - or at least would have easily forgiven without a second thought - had they happened on another artist's CD. As a result, an unintentional measure of inconsistency is introduced into my evaluation process - one which I may not even be aware of.
If, in fact, this is true, it is not until I recognize this tendency in myself, that I can truly begin to make a more objective judgement across the board.
Example #2
I could dislike a band's guitar tone so much that I start perceiving the overall production value of their debut album to be less impressive. In actuality, the mixing, the recording and the drum tone could all be above average. But if the guitarist insisted upon having a certain tone that just didn't sit right at all with me, and then if the keyboard patches were some of the cheesiest I'd ever heard in my life, this could place me in a frame of mind to be irritated by other unrelated elements of the music. For example, I may start to question production choices that I never would have questioned had the guitar tone and keyboard patches been more pleasant to me.
What I am suggesting is that there may be any number of factors capable of affecting our judgements, some of which we may not conciously notice without some deeper self reflection.
Sure, we think we know why we like or dislike certain things. Sometimes we are correct in our self-assessments. Quite often we are only partially correct. Oddly enough, sometimes we are even wrong!
Before dismissing this notion outright, I encourage you to check out Richard E. Nisbett's interesting (and now classic!) research on "Unconscious Alteration of Judgments". (I realize that The Halo Effect is well documented - so this is certainly "old news" to some of you.) Even so, I find this fascinating and think it might be of some interest to others as well. ------------- Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7! http://www.progpositivity.com |
Posted By: progpositivity
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 18:28
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Here is some information on Nisbett's "Unconscious Alteration of Judgments".
Two groups of college students viewed an interview video of the same college instructor. This college instructor spoke English with a European accent.
The first group of college studends saw a video in which the instructor behaved in a warm and friendly manner. The second group saw a video that contained the same in content, however, in their video the instructor behaved in a cold and distant maner. Both groups (independent of one another of course) were asked to rate the instructor's appearance and his accent. The first group rated both the instructor's appearance and his accent as appealing.
The second group rated both the instructor's appearance and his accent as irritating.
Since the instructor's appearance and accent were identical for both groups, it is reasonable to conclude that the instructors "warm and friendly" or "cold and distant" mannerisms were actually what affected the different groups variance in judgement of his appearance and of his speaking accent.
But there is much more to this than the mere fact that, if everything else is equal, whenever we meet someone who behaves in a "cold and distant" manner, we tend to rate other characteristics of that person more harshly than we would otherwise.
To me, the most interesting part of the study is that, when asked, group two reported that they did not believe their ratings of the instructors appearance and of his speaking accent had been affected by external variables. On the contrary, group two asserted that it was because of the instructor's personal appearance and his speaking accent that they tended dislike him overall.
The evidence, of cousre, indicated otherwise. Group #1 saw the same instructor, with the same appearance, and the same speaking accent. The only difference was that Group #1 saw the instructor acting "warm and friendly". They rated the instructor's speaking accent and appearance favorably.
The evidence supports the idea that - in fact - it was group 2's perception of the instructor's cold and distant manner which had influenced them to react differently to both the instructor's appearance and speaking accent. This implies that Group 2 had, in effect, misunderstood the "cause and effect" of their own value judgement!
Very interesting research IMO.
For more info, see: Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 1977, Vol 35, No. 4, 250-256. The Halo Effect: Evidence for Unconscious Alteration of Judgments by Richard E. Nisbett and Timothy DeCamp Wilson - University of Michigan ------------- Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7! http://www.progpositivity.com |
Posted By: progpositivity
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 19:20
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Thanks for your observations "thehallway"!
I too have always considered 'Wish You Were Here' to be very well-produced and clean. Certainly there is some objective validity to this. But to what extent does the pristine white color of the album cover also contribute to that perception?
I personally believe that "Memoirs of an Officer and a Gentleman" and "Canario" are not bad pieces of music! But by the time a prog fan has endured the first 5 tracks, they are understandably a bit incredulous and weary. And so, not only the cover art and album title conspire against it, so does the running order of the album.
What if the title had been...
ELP - Memoirs of an Officer and a Gentleman
What if the running order had been...
The entirety of Side One = Memoirs of an Officer and a Gentleman. Side Two starts with Canario and the rest of the filler was tucked away at the end of side two... Might those songs have more easily been viewed as nothing more than curiously ill-advised dalliances into pop-rock?
And finally, what if the band had acted as though they had really believed in the album instead of treating it like the "contractual obligation" that it was?
Of course, we will never know - but it is a great question! ------------- Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7! http://www.progpositivity.com |
Posted By: DomValela
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 20:02
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I think about this all the time...I'm 16 and I've been listening to Prog music for a few years now. Genesis is my favorite band. I was 13 when Genesis came to Montreal in September of 2007 on their TIOA reunion tour. I had heard A Trick of the Tail, Abacab and the Shapes album over and over and over again for months by the time I got the tickets as a birthday gift. Today, my favorite bands include Yes, Pink Floyd, King Crimson, ELP, Gentle Giant and...(heheheh)...da zeuhl wortz MAGMA!! The list goes on! Plus, my favorite Genesis album is "Selling England," Today I listen to the Peter Gabriel era albums ten times as often as the rest. (Keep in mind, I started with a select few random PC-era albums.) But sometimes, when my ego sinks a little, I ponder the idea that I might have labelled myself a "Prog Head" before I really got into the music just because I had these expensive tickets! Another question I ask myself in these periods is: Am I expanding my knowledge of prog now solely because I've made prog synonymous with good music in my mind? At any rate, it doesn't matter now, because I've fallen in love with the music and preach about it to my friends all the time. (One of them is just about as avid a prog fan as me now!) It's an interesting thought, but I still know that Prog is important to me, I love listening to it (and playing what I can!) and I don't think it really matters why.
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 20:06
| Stop thinking about it and crank some Krautrock. Reefer optional |
Posted By: DomValela
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 21:00
lol...I've been meaning to hear some Grobschnitt. I listened to the one with the flying thing on the cover...("somebody's" story") and I was impressed. Ballerman and Solar Music Live look interesting. And I just heard some Klaus Schulze today...but he's not really Krautrock...him and TD are more Electronica I guess.
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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: October 29 2010 at 08:57
I bought the gatefold sleeved vinyl of 'Works Volume 1' today, and boy does that package have an effect on the listening experience! I always loved Keith's concerto but the somewhat mediocre Lake ballads seemed today to be more... "in the moment" I guess, in comparison to my tiny CD box set.
Love Beach may have the opposite effect in large sizing............. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: friso
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 03:48
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I do think the coverwork of an album influences my thoughts about it. And I too, try to like a record that has either very good artwork or is high-rated on PA. This usually doesn't work in the long run. In the end it's all about the music.
The opposite also accurs: I don't want to like an album that's very populair. I didn't want to like Selling England for instance, or even Yes in general. Often these gut-feelings aren't useless. I still don't like Selling England and I can only appriciate side one of the Yes album. I can't stand Dark Side of the Moon and Thick as a Brick makes me want to skip side two more often than not. Trying to like or dislike music doesn't work in the long run, but it's hard to avoid it. Music isn't totally intellectual, and it's more than emotional if you're a trained listener. Listening behaviour (counting the numbers of spins) says more about your taste then what you think you like. |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 03:59
| Just look at the release date on the packaging. That tells you all you need to know. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 04:59
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The music is paramount. Nice packaging is icing on the cake. And not trying new or new to you prog with preconceptions will grant you a more enjoyable music experience.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Tengent
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 10:19
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Album covers influence the way I think of music a little bit too much. It changes the way the music is visualized in my head. And most often, if it's good music, it looks good in my head. I constantly relate music to visual aesthetic. If the album cover doesn't match what I hear but the music is good, it's sort of like lasagna. It's really good but it'll probably leave a bad taste in your mouth. If I see the album cover before I listen to the music, I'll see textures or colors similar to the ones on the cover. Ex. Grizzly Bear's Veckatimest has some very turquoise music, but the album cover doesn't match it at all. It actually doesn't influence much at all, but it is annoying. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 08:37
Music is the best. Album covers are marketing tools. Some (indeed many) are works of art, some can surely enhance the listening experience, but at the end of the day music is all about music.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 08:47
The thing I dislike in rock appreciation is how even album art appreciation is elevated as a fine art and not taking the same into account deemed to be ignorant or ill-informed. Personally, even the worst and most repelling artwork conceivable would not put me off an album and even the most beautiful artwork would not lead me to give an album more credit than its music deserves. It's all about the music indeed, I don't even know how the artwork could make someone dislike a good or great music album. What it can do however is to influence your decision to buy or not to buy an album because good artwork looks eye catching on the racks and attracts more customers. Of course, if you already know the artist and just don't have a particular album in your collection, even that doesn't really matter so much. When I read the caption "Bill Evans - Waltz for Debby" on a CD while shopping recently, I don't think I so much as took a good look at the artwork. It was a surefire buy for me and it paid off, needless to say.
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Posted By: progpositivity
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 18:23
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rogerthat, I would certainly never want to imply that someone who is less affected by album covers is in any way ignorant or ill-informed.
My post actually was a question to see how self-aware prog listeners are regarding the various factors that go into the judgements that we form of the music we hear.
Scientific research suggests that people tend to oversimplify matters of judgement, inadvertently dismissing the impact of contributing factors which they were not consciously aware of during the decision making process. So far, based upon most of the responses to this thread, I have concluded that this appears to be true of prog fans as it relates to music as well. (I'm not pointing toward you specifically - just the responses overall lead me to think this is probably the case. Of cousre, one could make the case that I simply have not articulated the idea well enough. That could be true as well so I'll try again).
 For example, one study indicated that individuals were more likely to judge someone guilty of a crime if there was an unpleasant odor in the room at the time that they were asked to made their assessment. Test subjects did not believe that the unpleasant odor altered their conclusions. But it was evident that - statistically speaking - it did.
I realize the first thing we all tend to do is deny by saying "I'm not one of the people who would be affected by an external variable like that!" But is that truly the case? Clearly there were respondents who thought they were not affected by the external variable when in fact they were affected by it!
I'd like to provide 2 very easy to recognize examples that I have noticed in myself when it comes to listening to prog music. (I'm using simple examples in the hopes of better conveying the idea. There are some more complex, less readily apparent variables that also impact judgements. I'll be glad to share an example of one of those if anyone is interested...)
1) If I listen to a new CD when I have a headache or have the flu, I tend to experience it very differently than if I listen to it when I am feeling fantastic. If I did not enjoy the CD when I was ill, I will tend to "give it another chance" because I recognize a non-musical factor affected my perception of the CD.
2) If I have a stack of 4 CD's to listen to and review, and I am exhausted but feel obligated to listen to the 4 CD's before going to bed, I experience the first one differently than I do the 4th one. And I experience all of them differently than when I only have 1 CD to listen to, it is one I have heard wonderful things about, and I've been waiting for it to arrive.
By recognizing this, I can place the 4th CD "first in line" for the next time I go to review CD's. This gives it a chance to impress me while I am still fresh. Sometimes this makes a big difference. Other times it does not. I certainly agree that experientially, the music listening experience is of tantamount important to most prog music listeners. I wholeheartedly agree that actively attempting to eradicate preconceptions will grant us a more enjoyable music experience...
Furthermore, my suggestion is that once we become aware of some of the previously unnoticed factors that tend to color and influence our judgements, we will then be able to take them into account in order to arrive at more "fair" or "objective" assessments.
I'm not trying to get too very carried away by the entire notion. I don't mean to suggest that we are unpredictable or ridiculously inconsistent in our judgements, nor that we are mere puppets of circumstance. But I do think we can become more objective once we start recognizing some of the subtle (and not so subtle) factors that can influence our judgements.
I'm sure there are quite a few who will disagree with the entire idea. Perhaps you think I'm way "over-thinking" this - or way too introspective for my own good! I just haven't seen too very many responses that take a side either way. ------------- Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7! http://www.progpositivity.com |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 09 2010 at 19:45
It was a general rant about rock appreciation and not directed at you. I have seen people call an album bad because they dislike the artwork, which is certainly not a position I understands.
My mood/state of mind can affect how I perceive anything in general. Personally, I try to put off listening to an album if I feel I am not in the right mood for it or not in a position to give full attention. But isn't this a qualitatively different position from deriving a large part of the appreciation of MUSIC from the artwork that accompanies it? I can honestly say that the colour of the artwork on Meddle had no impact on my liking it. My favourite prog rock album, Red, also has bland artwork.
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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: November 10 2010 at 04:32
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I think most of those factors you mention, do affect my first impression.
Especialy i belive timing, is an important factor to me, some periods im into a special kind of music, if i dump into an album, at the right time, ill give it a lot of attention. The same album could come to my ears at another time, where i was a bit fed up with that particular kind of music, or just in a mood for something else, and i would not notice the album much. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: progpositivity
Date Posted: November 10 2010 at 20:46
Yes - they are two very different things. It sounds like the artwork doesn't affect your perception of the music at all.
I only latched on to Dean's suggestion of cover artwork as an example because I was getting a lot of responses saying "I'm not swayed by popularity. I just care about the music". I felt those responses missed the actual point of my question and I thought some people could relate to cover artwork as an external variable.
I've just recently been digging deeper into scientific studies indicating that we often are unaware of variables that contribute to perception and judgment. The participants are specifically asked whether the variable affected their value judgment and they claim that it did not - when in reality the data strongly suggests that it did - in fact - affect their perception and their judgment.
I'm becoming more aware of how external variables may have affected my perception of albums. It is a very counter-intuitive idea, one which I tend to want to deny - but one which seems to hold validity nonetheless. If I dislike hyper-emotional vocals, I tend to allow a hyper-emotional vocalist to adversely affect my perception of the songwriting.
Of course, once I recognize that, I can counteract it by making a conscious effort to be more "fair" to the song. To attempt to "hear" it in my imagination with a different vocalist to interpret it.
As such, the halo-effect and the pitchfork-effect are more than anecdotal concepts. They actually have a very scientific underpinning. ------------- Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7! http://www.progpositivity.com |
Posted By: progpositivity
Date Posted: November 10 2010 at 20:52
 I have come to the same conclusion about myself. I can reach a "saturation point" for a certain style and (to some extent 'unfairly') penalize a CD that comes my direction as a result. Had I heard that same CD 6 months prior or 6 months later, I may have perceived it with a more "fresh" outlook.
By recognizing this, I can give some of these CD's an opportunity at a different time and place to work its way into my heart. Now this does not mean that I will always change my opinion of the CD of course. Sometimes I just don't particularly like a CD and I still won't like it no matter whether "Sam I Am" is on a train, in a plane, in a car, near OR far."
Hmm... Green eggs and Spam. That could be a good name for a Math Rock song!
------------- Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7! http://www.progpositivity.com |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 11 2010 at 10:59
Now this is an interesting issue. I personally don't consider it an external variable because the delivery of the musicians should ideally be in sync with the composition. I really do dislike overemoting strongly and I would end up enjoying an album less than I might have if the vocals were more appropriate (though it would never by itself make me DISLIKE an album that's otherwise good). I can independently assess the vocalist's technical facilities but that he/she overemotes would continue to remain a problem and as such I don't like the modern precious and cheesy style of emoting that's unfortunately adopted by technically very capable singers. But as I alluded to above, I consider how well the musicians have performed their parts and, above all, how good are the compositions and if the compositions are great, the vocals won't get in the way of my liking it. I strongly dislike the vocals on Everything Everything's debut Man Alive but like the album for the inventive arrangements. This is a bit of a digression but I had a discussion on a somewhat related topic with a fellow Beatles fan. We agreed that putting together Abbey Road was a more monumental compositional achievement than putting together Red album (strange comparison, I know!
 ) simply for the sheer diversity of music on the former. But I said I still preferred Red album for the sake of my listening experience because the musicians rendered the album better and brought out its more exotic emotions very well whereas the Beatles were handicapped in this department. This by itself is an interesting topic: music discourse ought to focus more on the rendering of the material by the musicians and less on their technical skills. It goes without saying that more skilled musicians would be in a better position to do justice to the material (which is what Bruford, Wetton and Fripp did) but it's not necessary that they always will and the skills involved in rendering material well are somewhat different from those involved in alternate picking faster than anybody else. In short, it is wrong to say that a star lineup by itself raises an album's opinion (though it is commonly seen to do so) but a set of musicians who perform the material well can improve your perception of the music and make the compositions seem maybe better than they really are. |
Posted By: progpositivity
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 15:45
Good point. The delivery of the vocal isn't external to the music altogether.
The style of vocal delivery is, however, a variable independent of the songwriting that has the potential to affect my overall perception to the extent sufficient that - if I reflect upon it honestly - I can see where I could sometimes tend to ascribe a certain ineffectiveness to the songwriting as a result.
There will be obvious situations where the performances are so strong that I cannot deny they are strong even in the presence of hyper-emotive vocal delivery. But in those instances where things are perhaps slightly questionable - that fuzzy area where I tend to either "easily forgive" a perceived transgression or "hone in upon it and allow it to drive me crazy"... *that* is where independent variables sometimes exert their subconscious effect upon us the most.
As you mentioned, it can go the other way as well. Excellent interpretations and inspired performances can often exert a "halo effect" of sorts - resulting in the listener honestly feeling that the songwriting was stronger than they otherwise may have thought had someone else been the performer.
Similarly, a listener's perception of the quality of "production", "engineering", and to a lesser extend "musicianship" can also be affected by the "halo effect" and the "pitchfork effect".
I think "musicianship" is a little more resilient against unconscious variables contributing to a "halo" or "pitchfork" effect. Musicians and even experienced listeners to some extent can often identify talented musicianship even in music which we don't particularly enjoy.
This is not always the case, however. For example, in my teenage years, I did not recognize some tasty bass guitar lines in funk music due to stylistic presentation and the more simplified guitar and drum parts. I just overlooked them altogether!
It appears to me that us prog listeners are proud of our independence - even to the point of defiance against people telling us what we "should" and "should not" like or listen to. We pride ourselves in being active and perceptive music listeners. So we will immediately tend to bristle at the implication that we could even be subject to a "halo effect" or a "pitchfork effect" in the first place.
But studies tend to show that these are very real within the judgements we form during our lives everyday - so I cannot see why I should think it would not also have an application to the perceptions we form when listening to music. ------------- Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7! http://www.progpositivity.com |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 13 2010 at 00:07
Not so sure. It applies to say the compositions of Mozart because they have been rendered by so many musicians since the time they were written. But a songwriter working within a band ought to consider the strengths and weaknesses of himself and his bandmates while writing music, imo, and I believe they do. Ozzy is not such a great singer and yet how many times have I heard people argue him to be better than the incomparable Dio! This is probably because Black Sabbath carefully wrote music that utilized his voice well. Contrast the vocal melodies of Yes and Genesis, soaring and flat in the former and dramatic and expressive in the latter, reflecting the singing style of their respective singers Anderson and Gabriel. In short, when the vocals are overemotive, I would tend to surmise that they were as the band intended unless I have strong evidence to the contrary and therefore would conclude that the band needs to project emotions better. I think Dream Theater do want James La Brie to sing in his overemotive style, for instance, because, apparently, John Arch was asked to sing like that when he auditioned for them (before La Brie joined the band) and he didn't like it and passed over the opportunity.
This brings me to another important issue and the one that in my opinion impacts our perceptions of music most: conditioning. It pushes us to be biased towards or against some styles of composition or rendering. It is very difficult to overcome the effect of conditioning on our perceptions and in some aspects, it is not desirable to because every listener must have his tastes after all. My own indifference towards external factors like artwork or the 'motive' of creating music (commercial or tr00) stem from listening to Indian music during my formative years. Only recently has the packaging of music begun to be considered important in India, but it was awful during the years I was growing up. Just a flimsy piece of paper with a tiny photograph of the singer or composer (usually not very attractive ) or, if it was a film soundtrack, a shabby image of a poster of the film. I could not then start paying as much attention as some rock listeners do to artwork when I started listening to Western music and I honestly believe I am happier for it because music is not necessarily always robbed of its emotions in the live environment (i.e. sans artwork) compared to the studio presentation, so it does not seem to be very important to me. I also strongly dislike the overdramatic and overwrought quality of operatic vocals because I am so used to the more understated and earthy style of presentation favoured in Indian music. Now, THAT is something I have tried to overcome but to no avail.  |
Posted By: Heathcliffe
Date Posted: November 29 2010 at 21:43
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I think Symbolism sometimes plays a big part - that would include album cover artwork - stage costumes - lyrical content - song titles...
For example the first Genesis album I bought was Nursery Crime- loved the cover and subsequently discovered the lyrical concepts of Peter Gabriel to my taste,Dug the weird costumes he wore and delighted that the songs had a literary bent. Loved the music too of course. |
Posted By: mantifluid
Date Posted: December 02 2010 at 17:41
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I do think you overcomplicated things however lets move onto music and covers I was from a young age facinated by Album covers I wanted to know what the music behind this wonderfull artwork. I recall the album Tarkus by the great ELP it was a strange mythical creature with more inside the gatefold dipicting some story, the only other illistrations I had seen similar to this were on the front of my fathers SI FI books he was a big fan so I was drawn to this, the music was or at least one side just like nothing I'd heared before my friends were Sabbath, Lizzy, Quo fans but this was way off the scale in the other direction but that,s what exited me. But it didn't influence my choice of album had to be some other world art work but it was the iceing on the cake if the two came together Brain Salad Surgery Close to the Edge Relayer Houses of the Holy to name a few but colours do have a input to our thinking but is it enough to change my concept on how we hear the music well yes and no.
Lets suppose all the above where gray in colour plain gray whould it have an effect I don't think it would I would be facinated by the choice of colour and the music would speak for itself but clearly marketing men spend a lot of time in colour choice it has a huge influence on everyday items how many people would eat blue chips or a green hamburger but the taste would be the same (or would it)
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 02 2010 at 19:23
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With regard to album artwork, is there perhaps some confusion between the act of owning an album and that of listening to the music? When I pick up a CD with great artwork and find it to be well packaged with detailed liner notes, that does make me feel (provisionally ) to have picked up the album. But, surely, if the album turns out to be a rank turd after that, all that amounts to precious little? On the flipside, I neither like the artwork for Birds of Fire much nor are there any anecdotes about the making of the album on the sleeve, but what an album!
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: December 03 2010 at 10:31
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Personally, it is always about the music and nothing else. Yes, the mood I'm in can have an effect on how I percieve what I'm listening to at that time, though rarely a big effect and will never colour my lasting view of that album/song/whatever, but I will never base my preception of an album solely on the a specific listen. Many is the time that the first listen has only left me with a feeling of OK rather than brilliant but for subsequent listens to boost my perception of the album, or for my initial impreciation to be of the best album I've ever heard, only for a few weeks latter for me to realise the flaws that drop the level of the album.
In short, I'm well aware of the outside factors that may colour my perception of an album, but I will never let a single listening session determine my overall view of an album. I also hardly ever listen to an album for the first time without some clue as to the type of music I will here, I dont buy blind because I dont want to waste money.
I've noticed that a lot of people point to the art work as having an impact on their perception of an album as well, and this is something I just can't get my head around. I can appreciate the artwork, particularly for the way some of it relates so well to the music, but never does it impact upon what I think of the music. They are sperate entities, linked but seperate. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: jean-marie
Date Posted: December 05 2010 at 17:35
| Good artwork or good review can help have a listening or some more listenings but no more, it will not change your mind if the music feets you ,it works if it doesn't, it doesn't.The contrary is thrue too, i remember refusing to listen to prefab sprout cause the name looked too sily, finaly i heard their music to a friend home and felt in love with it and got the whole collection.The real problem is that, today,ther's far too much stuff to listen too, this is what affects our perception |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 10 2010 at 21:32
Well said Roger, and I totally agree. But it also says something about the compositional style of the group/band, when they are capable of doing that ... when you have, by comparison today ... bands that state out front that they play "prog" ... and the singer and material is almost totally .... yeah ... and has nothing to do with anything except some person's ideas.
Add Greg Lake ... same thing in ELP and KC for him ... it's not singing ... it's almost poetry and making sure that you express the point clearly and it gets accentuated with the music.
The best example here is Peter Hammill, specially in his early years when so much of the material screams, cries, shouts, talks, whispers ... and the music is bent around the corner to match that emotion ... I can still hear "Bernina -- genuflection in church .... " or "a louse is not a home ..." ... and most people can not understand this at all.
It's hard to tell the folks that it is not about the notes or the singing ... it's about the expression and the poem and the words ... and how it comes out ... it comes out. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: sararocksprog
Date Posted: December 13 2010 at 00:13
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Absolute objectivity is unattainable in the material world... but we can always try!
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