Torman Maxt
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Interviews
Forum Description: Original interviews with Prog artists (which are exclusive to Prog Archives)
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72292
Printed Date: November 22 2024 at 23:58
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Torman Maxt
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Subject: Torman Maxt
Date Posted: October 16 2010 at 15:08
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Torman Maxt has become one of the more vilified bands in our database. A quick look at the reviews part of their PA profile will tell you what I am referring too. Yes, I also gave that album a 1 star review. A review the band has both read and is fully aware of. Torman Maxt has just released a new album and that is for me an opportunity to interview the band and get their story. I guess Torman Maxt may cause some high blood pressure with some of the opinions raised in this interview. I always encourage my interview objects to be brutally forthright in voicing their opinions in interviews for ProgArchives. Please keep this in mind when you read on. Without further ado, I give you this interview with Tony Massaro in Torman Maxt. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your biography in ProgArchives is very extensive so I refer everyone to the PA profile. But just to start with; please give us your long or brief afterthoughts on......
 Just Talking About The Universe... So Far from 1994
We recorded it on traditional 24 track and had limited time to mix it. I still really like the album, but there are a few items I would love to touch up. Lyrically, it is a brief introduction to our Christian faith, but in a very indirect manner. My favorite track is Summer; I am very proud of the guitar and vocal layering on that song.
 The Foolishness of God from 2001
After our vocalist for the first album left the band in 1997, I decided to take over singing duties. I had written all of the vocal melodies for Just Talking About the Universe…So Far, so it was a natural evolution. The title “The Foolishness of God” is taken from the New Testament, where the apostle Paul states:
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
I had heard a sermon years ago with the same title and decided to incorporate the actual sermon into the track, using excerpts of the speaker, Dr. Walter Martin’s message. Lyrically, the album is a defense of the Christian faith and echoes the words of the Bible that “the fool in his heart says there is no God.” But if one looks closely at the structure of the songs, they would find that the tracks preceding the songs with the strong outward message are actually “from the inside” and speak of personal inner struggles and vanity. Thus, there is an attempt to lyrically “pull the plank out of my own eye” before worrying about the speck of dust in another person’s.
There was less acoustic guitar work but quite a bit more of guitar layering and textures. City of Man is my favorite track on the album both lyrically and musically.
 The Problem Of Pain: Part 1 from 2007
From the first time I heard Rush 2112 I had always dreamed of writing and recording a concept album. I just never felt like I had a story. Then during the recording of The Foolishness of God, the idea of retelling the story of Job from the Old Testament came along. The album had about twenty tracks and was about 84 minutes long, so we decided to split it into two parts; somewhat of a takeoff of the idea of the Lord of the Rings movies, where you knew before the movie started, that there would be a continuation.
Writing music that tells a story can be a challenge insofar that the music must follow the story and the tone and timbre of the music is determined by the nature of the subject. I absolutely love the album and musically, and feel like it faithfully tells the story from the Bible.
 Your brand new album The Problem Of Pain: Part 2
Obviously, it is the continuation of Part 1, and the songs were written in the same general time period, so it has the same feel. So the thought for developing the songs and recordings was twofold: first, it had to sound like the previous album for it to be a cohesive package but secondly, as with all of our other albums, there needed to be a step up in production, playing and overall arrangement and composition. I think this album achieves both. There are some darker keyboards on the album as well as some guitar work using the e-bow. Also, this album has the most lead guitar work of any of our albums.
There has been some breaks in your release schedule. What happened between the albums ?
I am an architect by profession, and I own my own business and have a wife and three children. Additionally, I am active in our church life, so there is only a limited amount of time to write, record and produce music. So, of the four most important things in my life, the order of importance is: God, family, work (because it supports my family) and then music. However, I feel with what I lack in time I make up with persistence and diligence. Parts 1 and 2 of The Problem of Pain took thirteen years to write and record.
The first three albums are now free downloads. I guess the web hosting of your website is not free. How is the Torman Maxt business model and how do you earn a living ?
As I mentioned in the previous question, I am an architect by profession. While I had always hoped and dreamed I would make a living as a musician, it just hasn’t worked out that way. What’s interesting is, however, that I am paid to design buildings; thus, I must design buildings that meet the client’s needs, and not my own personal preferences. They are paying the bill, so they get to call the shots. So when it comes to writing music, because money is not a part of the equation, there is total freedom of expression. I quite like it that way.
The joy I receive from people who have downloaded our music and have really been inspired or blessed by the music we make outweighs any amount of money I could ever get. What’s also great to know is that I get emails from people in countries where they can’t access music as easily, or they don’t have the money to pay for it, but are very grateful for someone making their music available at no cost.
With that said, we have agreed with our record company and its distributors, that we will be charging for the new album for a set time period to recoup some of the production and manufacturing costs. However, if someone doesn’t have the cash and sends an email, we will gladly send them a free copy.
Your lyrics has a Christians theme. Are you targeting the Christian market or the secular markets with your music ?
Interesting question. When one approaches writing music as a business endeavor, then it is prudent to determine who the audience is and what to do to successfully market the product in order to sell the music. By definition, that is what makes the music business a ‘business.’ That line of thinking does not enter my mind any more. When you are not worried about money, then you don’t need to worry about how many albums you sell !
My paradigm is this: I have a vision of what the music I write needs to sound like and how to get there. Additionally, I have a vision of what I want to communicate both musically and lyrically. I feel like I am being the artist that God made me to be. I desire to write the best music I can possibly write, using the gifts He has given me to the best of my ability. I want the music to reflect God’s truth, order and beauty.
So I would ultimately say that I am “targeting” pleasing God with my music, first and foremost.
How would you describe your music and who would you compare yourself with ?
One of the technical definitions of ‘progressive’ is: “characterized by striving for change or innovation; moving and advancing.” For me, what makes something ‘progressive’ musically is when an artist, either through composition or production, is trying to move towards new ideas and methods. Any style of music can have a progressive element to it. Torman Maxt takes normal hard rock / metal music and advances it forward with more sophisticated arrangements, layering, counterpoint, and harmonies.
Most importantly, I think ‘progressive’, like the definition I gave above, should be an adjective and not a noun. Progressive as an adjective, describes the music, and makes for artists striving for something new and interesting.
Unfortunately, it has been my experience that many Prog fans use “Progressive” as a noun. Thus, there is now a criteria for what Prog music should be. That criteria usually includes long songs, lots of solos, and lots of time signature changes. It reminds me of the term “Alternative Music.” By the mid 1990’s “Alternative Music” was the main stream and wasn’t an alternative to anything! Unfortunately for me, I hear a great deal of un-progressive “Progressive Music.”
I would describe Torman Maxt as a blend of Black Sabbath, Rush, Iron Maiden and King’s X.
You were the ProgArchives artist of May 2008. Which I guess is not the same as being the Fishing Lure of the Month in the http://www.bassanglermag.com/ - Bass Angler Magazine . How was this experience for you ?
Hmmmmmm….good question. Let me start by saying, in a million years, I never expected Torman Maxt to be such a divisive band !
OK, here are some background facts. Max from ProgArchives approached Torman Maxt with the opportunity to be ProgArchives artist of the month. He explained to me that is was a paid spot and they were trying to feature bands that were both quality and wanted to advertise their music on ProgArchives. It was to be a win for both the band and ProgArchives. The band gets a good advertising spot and ProgArchives raise some cash in the process.
Interestingly enough, at that time, someone wrote a very strange, very anti-religious review of our album that had little to do with the music and more of a slam of Christianity. I mentioned this to Max and asked him what the policy for ‘nonsensical’ reviews were. He read it and agreed that it was rather offensive as well as not really ProgArchives material. Max immediately pulled the review and then mentioned that that particular reviewer had been problematic for a while. (Incidentally, I ended up making contact with that reviewer and I feel like we worked things out). So that prompted a discussion about that, because we were paying for the advertising, that for the month of May only, that ProgArchives would hold off on posting negative reviews. This was ONLY for the month of May that we were paying for.
Come June 1st, he could post any and all reviews no matter what the content and when it was written. The line of thinking was similar to a movie studio buying an ad in a newspaper and using reviews or quotes that are favorable. This seemed like a reasonable idea to me. Our manager agreed it was a reasonable request and so did ProgArchives. I didn’t give it much thought after that….
Well, the spurned reviewer got on the forum, emailed me and everyone he could think of to start denigrating me and Torman Maxt. This started quite the hullaballo on ProgArchives and thus came a string of unbelievably bad reviews. I think if a score of negative one was possible, we would have got that! I never bothered to respond. Even Max from ProgArchives took a beating.
Here is some food for thought, however. Prior to the ProgArchives debacle, the reviews for Problem of Pain Part 1 were quite stellar:
8/10 from the Dutch Progressive Rock Page.
4/5 from Ytsejam.com
5/5 from the Progfiles.com
5/6 from Progressor.com
8/10 from Classic Rock Magazine...we were the highest rated prog band for November 2007 and even had our photo printed in one of the UK's largest publications! Here is a quote from Prognosis: "The Problem of Pain: Part 1 is a classy and well written album. I recommend you check out some music samples at the band's Myspace.com page. You may be impressed by what you hear."
Here is a quote from Sea of Tranquility Prog review site: "...here's a certain AOR element that can't be ignored, giving some of these songs a real radio
friendly appeal, especially thanks to the Beatles-influenced vocal harmonies. Otherwise, expect plenty of tasty guitar licks (that include crunchy riffs & melodic leads), sumptuous keyboards, tight rhythms, and melodic vocals." So, it is clear, the facts bear it out, that Torman Maxt is not an untalented, amateurish band. I have played guitar for 30 years and have studied music theory and counterpoint. There are many passages in the album that are extremely sophisticated. Some sections have five and six instruments playing separate parts simultaneously. The first six songs barely have a repeated part.
We got two separate 8.7/10 reviews from Ultimate Guitar.com. This is what they think of Torman Maxt:
It's hard to compare something that seems so new, and so fresh, and so different to some other album or some other artist. You can't just compare a brilliantly made album. Job's First Song and Job's Resolve is probably my most favorite songs from the album, and I continue to listen to them. I love the fact these guys wanted to try something different, and they achieved a great sound.
So why the consistent 1 out of 5 reviews on ProgArchives? If these reviewers were Olympic judges for gymnastics or figure skating, they would get flagged and dismissed immediately as judges who have an agenda that goes far beyond what they are supposed to be judging and their scores don’t reflect the reality of the performance. Now, I don't expect everyone to like us; but to present Torman Maxt as a 1 out of 5 just clearly shows that there is far more than musical critique happening here...
I think the reviews come from two directions, both having to do with subjective feelings and not objective ones. The first is a simple reaction to having ProgArchives hold off on negative reviews for the month of May. Many people felt their free speech was being tampered with. The second reason for the bad reviews is the negative reaction to the spirit carried by the music.
I firmly believe that music is a “carrier of spirit” and as the ProgArchives reviewers have tried so hard to discredit Torman Maxt, what they don’t realize they have done actually validates what we have tried to accomplish! It is honoring to me that our music has caused such a strong reaction. That means the spirit I was hoping to convey is very present in the music. It is to be expected that the spirit of Jesus is offensive to many. That comes as no surprise. Torman Maxt is not a group of amateurish musicians and songwriters and many good ears have validated the skill of the band so that is not what is causing the negativity here. Too many qualified and sophisticated listeners have acknowledged the quality of the music.
But in the end, everyone is entitled to their opinion. A wise man once told me that sometimes ProgArchives gets it right and sometimes they get it wrong.
If I could make a suggestion to anyone at ProgArchives about the review system I would have them look at Progression Magazine. They have four categories: Sound, Composition, Musicianship, and Performance. Each of the categories is rated one to four and the maximum score is 16. I think this is a better way to break an album down numerically.
Just to find out some more about you, please give us your opinions on........
Progressive rock.
As I mentioned above. For me, Progressive should be an adjective and not a noun.
Record labels
Record labels are in business to sell music. By definition they make decisions based upon what is most beneficial to their business. This is not always what is best for the artist or musician. It has been fascinating to see the whole industry turned upside down in the past few years. I like to compare the music industry with the airline industry. The price for a cross country flight from Miami to Los Angeles has been around the low $300 range for twenty five years. How can that be when the average car has gone up by ten times in the same time period? It seems that the market corrected the over pricing of airline tickets. I think our current technology is correcting the overpricing of music.
Music festivals
Lots of energy and synergy. I think they make great events.
Your Christian beliefs
These are my Christian beliefs:
The Bible [all the books of the Old and New Testaments] is the true written message of God to us. I believe the authors of the Bible were inspired by God and are therefore completely trustworthy. The Bible is the final authority on all matters to which it speaks. There is one God, who exists forever in perfect community as three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God. He is the perfect reflection of God’s character and glory. He lived a sinless life and offered himself as the only perfect sacrifice for the sins of all people by dying on the cross. All who believe in Him are declared righteous on the basis of His death. He rose physically from the dead and will return again to earth to reign forever with those who are His. Humans are created in the image of God, but each one has fallen short of God’s perfect standard and is in need of salvation. Salvation from our sinful condition is a free gift from God to us. It is not something we earn or deserve. It is offered in grace and received by faith in Jesus Christ alone. those who believe in Jesus Christ and call on His name are made right with God and given eternal life. The American culture I love being an American. If you look at the history of this country, and how many people came here for religious freedom and a new start, you can get a general feel for the DNA of a people who love freedom and seeking out opportunity. Americans are fiercely practical and pragmatic, and I like that. However, I believe we are in a moral decline and that is due to our turning away from God.
Barack Obama vs. Sarah Palin
In America we vote for representatives to govern us who “represent” our values and beliefs as voters. In that aspect, Sarah Palin shares more of my values than Barack Obama. I think Obama made a great presentation of himself during his campaign and made some very impressive speeches, but ultimately, I strongly disagree with many of his policies and values. With that said, even though Sarah Palin more closely represents my views, I am not sure she is the best candidate for president that represents my views.
The Vietnam war vs. the Iraq & Afganistan war
Interesting question. Answering this one is like doing a review of an album without really closely listening to it and not downloading the lyrics…it makes for an unimpressive and uninformed presentation. In general, I don’t feel like I have enough good facts to make a qualified answer; however I think they are three separate wars and not easy to compare. The big question is, does one think a pre-emptive war overseas to prevent a disaster at home is a justifiable war?
Florida vs California
Lots of beaches in both states! Actually, they do have something very similar in common. They both are transient states. People tend to move there from somewhere else. People tend to move to Florida for the warm weather, especially senior citizens, to retire and slow down. California is quite different. People tend to move there for opportunity and to make things happen in their life. The music and movie industry epicenters are there. What is interesting is that growing up in Florida, for me, California had quite a mystique. I think California still is representative of the idea of “going West” to seek fortune and opportunity. The Europeans did it 500 years ago and I still think it happens here in America today. I have lived here for 23 years and love it.
After these rather untraditional – and very nerdy- questions; what is your plans for the rest of this year and next year ?
I plan on promoting Problem of Pain Part 2 and to start writing more music. I am also very involved in my church life and my wife and I, with some others, help run an outreach here in Costa Mesa that provides meals and showers for homeless people. I lead a bible study there once a week.
Anything you want to add to this interview ?
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share my thoughts and opinions!! Readers can go to http://www.tormanmaxt.com - our homepage and here four tracks from the new album.
Thank you to Tony for this interview
Their PA profile is http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1187 - here and their homepage is http://www.tormanmaxt.com - here
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Replies:
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: October 16 2010 at 16:04
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I still haven't listened to any of their stuff, but I'm well aware of who they are and that's why I read the interview. I found it very interesting, I didn't even know about that incident of 2008, though I did know about the reviews. Knowing much of the reviewers who reviewed that album, I really couldn't disagree more about what he thinks of us, reviewers, but still it's great he was sincere.
Thanks for the interview Torodd!
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 16 2010 at 18:07
| Interesting stuff Torodd. I'm not familiar with TM music, but the guy came across as a thoughtful person and a gentlemen. His only problem is that, as Pablo mentions, the reviewers in question are also thoughtful gentlemen and good guys. It will be interesting to see how our metal-heads take to the new album, now that the controversies have died out. |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: October 16 2010 at 18:35
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As for those reviews, I do believe that at least some can be put in the category "territorial defence". The musicianship of the album in question is undeniable. The technical aspects of it - mix and production - may be more questionable. Compositionally on a level above average, but how well the themes and motifs are crafted and executed is another thing entirely. Bottom line on th end result here as on all other productions is that it boils down to personal taste. The added dimension in this case is that many felt that the band had invaded their private property (so to speak) which did cause some folks to loose their sense of objectivity on the matter. Emotions and emotional responses do colour people, no matter how intelligent and objectively inclined they may be on other issues. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 09:48
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Very interesting interview, and good timing now the dust has had time to settle.
I think a lot was learned from the 2008 debacle on both sides. From the band's point of view, offering an album for free doesn't mean everyone will automatically like it, indeed it is possible it will attract more adverse comment as the freeloaders investigate it.
Not sure I'm convinced though by the attempt in the interview to prove that people got it wrong here.
From the site's point of view, I think some of the reviews and comments were offensive rather than constructively critical. I also believe a mob mentality developed. Anyway, old ground now, and an interesting interview anyway.
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 10:38
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Nice interview, Torodd! Tony seems like a nice guy, even though I completely disagree with his stance on the reviewers here. I wasn't even a member of this website when all the controversy happened, yet I gave it 1 star. I rate based on how much I like the music, not on how popular the album is. I know many of the other reviewers who gave 1 and 2 star reviews, and they feel the same way... Just sayin'....  ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 11:28
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A good interviewer is the person that causes a strong reaction in the interviewed forcing him/her, to say what otherwise would had kept hidden. Torod did an outstanding job,. but I honestly can't accept this paragraph:
This is offensive IMO. Most of the members of PA would never let an agenda interfere with an honest rating, and in this case the ratings are constant...It's not 1 or 2 one stars reviews Out of 15 collaborators reviews, we have: - 9 one star reviews. - 5 two stars reviews - 1 four stars reviews This is not casual, the album has to be bad o at least bellow the average, but it was worst to force M@X to delete the 1 stars reviews, I believe no artist has ever done this. In my case I find terrible vocals, less than average guitar and drums and absolute lack of versatility, so I gave 1 star because I believe that's what the album deserved, and no, I don't have any agenda. If you want a review with agenda, read this one http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=168905 - http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=168905 by, a guy named DaleJuday ( http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=19413 - http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=19413 ) who joined PA in order to review this album, raise the average and then vanished. The only review with a clear agenda that I read is the above mentioned. Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 13:56
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I heard the album a few times and never found the elevated "musicianship" Olav talks about. It's obvious he and I have different musical concepts. As for "territorial defence" I'm quite sure everybody who gave the album a bad review listened to it first. I know I did and still think is a piece of crap, the guy's religious beliefs and his infamous situation with PA nothwithstanding. If my review is too much "territorial defence" and if I can't grasp his "undeniable musicianship" then I'm a f**king fool for daring to criticize the master. I'll be glad to have that and all my other reviews deleted offthe database since I don't egen care about that part of my business here anymore. I come to PA only for the forum and to talk with people. I did my share of contributions in the past adding and reviewing bands but I prefer now to leave this one the hands of those who know about "undeniable musicianship". I don't even consider myself a "prog fan" anymore. I'm a music fan who likes SOME progressive rock and I don't really give a damn what the prog community thinks of what I sincerely wrote a while ago.
And that album is, anyway, crap. Unoriginal, poorly played music. I wonder who is the one with second agendas and trying to "defend their territory" here... That the Maxt guy attacks people who reviewed his album I can understand. But people in PA really disappoint me... ------------- 
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 14:35
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Musicianship - as in knowing how to play an instrument - doesn't mean that the people doing just that are able to make good music. Some of the criticism aimed at the band was that they didn't master the very core skill of using their instruments. And as far as I'm concerned, these guys are above average in that particular field. If they are able to use it to make good music or interesting music is another matter entirely. That they are skilled musicians, and that their tunes contain some rather complex arrangements, are facts. If the end result is good or not, if the compositions are good creations overall, if the motifs are well enough developed and put into a pleasing context, are all aspects determined by taste and perception. I felt they succeeded, others did not. That's all fair and square. That this case still leads to emotional outbursts says quite a lot about the size of the storm within this particular bottle of water was. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 15:15
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If the guy in that band knows how to play drums... I guess we'll have to re-assess what "knowing how to play an instrument" means...
Whatever... You can enjoy your site... -------------
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 15:40
But how would you define "average"? Yes, the guys in Torman Maxt know how to play, but in reality, I've been playing drums for a few months, and I can keep up with the guy in that band. There are so many prog albums that come out each year, and almost all of them have at least decent musicianship. I hesitate in saying that about Torman Maxt. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 15:51
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I can't remember exactly the drums on that one now, it's been a few years and a heck of a lot of albums between then and now. If my recollection is correct the main arrangements were centred around the guitars and to some extent the vocals on this one, with the rhythms basically used to provide a steady foundation. As for above average, that the album contains passages that more musicians would fail at than master, and again if memory serves me right with the guitars as the most impressive. But this is more of a side issue - my main gripe was some of the people who slaughtered this album heralding the notion that these guys basically couldn't play, that they failed at the very basics of the music profession. That they may not impress with their skill level is a totally different matter than stating that they don't have any skill at all. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 16:19
I agree with you, I played drums for years, so I listen this instrument with special attention, and I must say that the drummer is far bellow the average, specially in "Job's Initial Shock", "Job's Second Response" and "Job's Wife" where IMHO sounds horrible. But the weakest point is in the vocals, simply horrendous. The rest of the instrument sound pretty well, good for a pub band. Now, about we having an agenda, the only ones who have an agenda are Torman Maxt, being that it's a Christian band, with the purpose of spreading a religious message...Don't imply this is wrong "per se" (even when I believe religion is for the church, not for rock stages), but this is an agenda, so it's a paradox that in the interview they mention we have one. BTW: .I'm not anti Christian, as a fact I'm a Christian, but everything has a place IMO. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 16:30
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Hmmm, I'm rather picky on vocals myself, but didn't get negative vibes about them in this case. I'll check them with my better half the coming week - an advantage of being married to someone who used to be a member of a national baptist choir trained by the arguably most renowned choir director in Norway is that I can get a more than halfway decent opinion on technical vocal performance. Listening through the samples we have here my main finding is that the mix and production leaves quite a bit to be desired. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 16:42
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One of the advantages of having studied music for several years.and having been raised by a musiciabn with full certification of the Lima Conservatory (my mother), who taught me to listen music, is that I can personally give an opinion about the performances. But I believe that the only things we need to appreciate what is good and what not, is two ears.  The educated or uneducated can appreciate music equally.The voice is extremely acute, with no variations, IMHO an unpleasant sound, and the choirs sound like absolutely dissonant (not in the good sense) with the main singer. Of course the bad production doesn't help, but Nursery Cryme's production sucks and the album is outstanding. Iván -------------
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 16:45
I actually wasn't impressed by the guitar work either... I found it really sloppy, and it even occasionally sounded way out of tune. As a whole, the album is simply not good IMO, and that's justified in my review. Tony's bad comments towards the PA reviewers are pretty ridiculous... It's an album that I absolutely dislike, and that has nothing to do with what other people think. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 16:54
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I'm actually generally more critical than my wife on vocals, if the lead vocalist is more than a quarter of a note out of tune I find that the vocals grate. Not that I can listen and say that this is what is happening, it's that bit I need my wife for. I can merely listen and sense that this isn't working at all, she can explain why ;-) The backing vocals is a curious setup on this album, by accident or design functioning as separate melodic textures rather than following the lead vocals or the dominating motifs. Probably one of the dimensions of this production that makes the opinions on it as diverse as they are - disregarding the internal issues on PA. Very much an acquired taste. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 16:56
This section honestly almost made me laugh... He criticizes our rating system - as if that's the reason why I don't like the album! If I were to rate TPoP1 using this scale, it would look like this:Sound: 1/4 Composition: 1/4 Musicianship: 1/4 Performance: 1/4 Thus, my rating would be 4/16, which equates to even less than my 1.5/5 review on ProgArchives. The problem isn't the rating system - the problem is the album. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 16:59
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I didn't find the album amazingly bad or amazing anything, unless it's quite amazingly lackluster. I didn't review it but genuinely found it sub PA par (based on the music I know in PA) The guitarist is technically capable enough, but he doesn't hold my interest (I find the playing dull). The drummer I find poor. The vocals and vocal harmonies I don't find successful. It sound quite derivative to me and very boring -- unimaginative to my ears. If it had been a "so bad it's good" album, I would've liked it more. Neither the compositions nor the performance is anything special to me. I agree far more with the low ratings than the essential and masterpiece ratings. Those very limited reviews at the mentioned sites don't prove any inherent quality to the music. One was written by Hashman who also gave it a four here, but I can't say how objective he is (he is involved in promotion). I actually don't really trust any of the sites even listed, let alone those individual reviewers. If it had a few positive reviewers at each site, then I would trust it more. I noticed that "Progressor" gave two of TM's earlier albums a four, and I didn't find Pain reviewed there, but I don't know why I should trust him. If you had good reviews at Ground & Sky, that would mean more to me since I do trust that site for reviews more than most others (including PA). I find it less than average when it comes to albums I know that are included in PA. And when we're talking average, that's what we compare it to (those prog umbrella albums we know). I find the album amateurish. I don't mind poor production values as I can really appreciate raw live albums (barely mixed and released in poor audio quality). There certainly was a backlash against Torman Maxt and the whole scheme (especially after, as I recall, King By-Tor's review was removed). I think that really glowing review from the one time poster (a publicist? a friend?) didn't help since it looked like a very disingenuous PR job. I know I sometimes get more critical when I see such overly effusive stuff written by people who only come here because of a recent addition to prop it up. I guess M@X liked the album or he wouldn't have chosen Torman Maxt to be the first "featured artist". I mean, especially for the first, I would think he would have wanted to be very careful, use quality control, in soliciting a band, otherwise the experiment could epically fail. EDIT: Anyway, even though i find the album tasteless (bland), and even if I thought it better executed I don't think it would be to my tastes, hopefully some others will discover the band thanks to the interview and enjoy it. To each his or own tastes. If the band appreciates making music and is pleased with the final product, well, cool. That matters more than what reviewers think, especially as it's not a particularly commercial venture. I'm sure there would be quite a few people out there who would genuinely appreciate the album. Rateyourmusic has some good ratings for it: http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/torman_maxt/the_problem_of_pain__part_1/ - http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/torman_maxt/the_problem_of_pain__part_1/ Just noticed something. Nightmare Records is selling the album and copied Hashman's review to describe it (the one he used at PA and Ytse jam). http://nightmarerecords.com/NMR/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=427&category_id=3&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=6 - http://nightmarerecords.com/NMR/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=427&category_id=3&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=6 It may be that Hashman is involved with the record company, might have prepared it himself, as I know he is involved with promotion and stuff, but maybe they borrowed it without his permission (is uncredited). ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 17:59
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Progressor - aka Vitaly Menshikov, is an accomplished musician himself. He's been playing in various bands for close to three decades if I recall correctly. And an avid fan of avantgarde music and technically challenging material. Cuneiform Records is a label he holds in very high esteem, if that tells you anything. I googled TM myself now, and I think it is fair to say that PA's reviewers has given this album a much more hostile reception than most other sites. One of the more interesting descriptions I found was on the blog of http://www.daveling.co.uk/diaryaugust07.htm - Dave Ling , a guy who's been working with reviews as a profession since the early 1980's. His take: "Also received 'The Problem Of Pain, Pt 1', a fascinating album from http://www.tormanmaxt.com/ - Torman Maxt , a pomp-prog Christian quartet from California that remind me of a heavied-up Starcastle, though who are most often compared to Rush, Dream Theater, Gentle Giant, Queensrÿche and, of course, Yes. Its ponderous lyrics are based on The Old Testament's Book Of Job, questioning why God allows so much evil and human suffering on Earth, but don't let that put you off - the music is wondrous." Indeed, few of the sites that do regular reviews of CDs seems to put the CD down on an extensive level. That DPRP made it a recommended album may not be that surprising, but that The Metal Observer sung it's praises is much more so. One of the few negative ones I've come across (from http://www.fourteeng.net/ - this site ) goes like this: ---- OK, so I've been procrastinating on reviewing or even listening to this album because, honestly, I have a problem with religious music. It just bugs me, something about it. I'm not religious myself and I don't have a problem with anyone's religion (except when it's shoved in my face) to each their own, I say. But when I hear religious music it just irks me. Especially Christian metal, every time I think of Christian metal, friggin Stryper is the first band to pop into the old skull. Gahhh..I hate those a-holes.... But I digress...where was I? Oh yes, so when I got Torman Maxt's album, I immediately put in the “to do later” pile. I knew I was going to have to be unbiased and just focus on the music. So I was pleasantly impressed with the strong direction of hard rock, metal, and progressive rock that Torman Maxt were heading towards. Fans of Rush, Dream Theater, and Queensryche would probably feel right at home listening to this. They are talented musicians that hold an ability to put together compositions that are unpredictable which can be heard in tracks such as “Job's Wife” and “A Great Silence”. Unfortunately, they loose that later on down the album and decide to play it a little more safe. “Angel's Song”, “Job's Song”, and one of their instrumental track's, “Job's Contemplation” are not really anything more than average. There's nothing unique that makes me want to take a second listen. Plus, I'm sorry guys, but if you're going to be a progressive rock band your songs to last longer than a couple of minutes. That's just the way it is. I think only three out of their thirteen tracks lasted longer than four minutes. “Job's Commitment” lasted maybe two minutes and “Job's Initial Shock” clocked in at just under two. That really doesn't give you enough time to gain any interest in either of these songs. The musical ability of this band goes without question. Vocalist Tony Massaro has a clean, melodic voice that is suited perfectly for these guys and also showcases his guitar-playing abilities on some of the heavier instrumental tracks such as “Satan's First Song”. Drummer, Vincent Massaro, has a great technical style and helps fill out the rhythm section. All of this should've been emphasized a lot more on this album and unfortunately it wasn't. I don't really have anything to compare this to but like I said before if you're a fan of Dream Theater, Queensryche or Rush you would probably dig this. It's a good album, not a great one though and not anything that swept me off my feet. Rating: 2/5 --------------------- Some sites gives it a halfway positive reception, a fair few 6/10 rating around, but few of the review sites actually put it down. As such, my conclusion is that this is an album that appeals to many that does an extended amount of reviewing. Given the negative ratings on this site, I'm more than a bit surprised about the lack of slaughtering reviews to be found elsewhere on the net. This place and RYM basically has most of them. Out of sheer curiosity I'd like to see some reviews made by pro's and semi-pro's that takes a critical stance towards this effort by now. The results of my 2 hour google trek on finding reviews of this album most certainly does put PA in a strange light, and I'd love to see critical assessments done by others, basically. What I have come up with does substantiate the band's reaction - their CD has generally been positively received most other places - and from their point of view it would look like this place has an agenda against them. So - please find links to other negative reviews on the net, so that I can at least balance out the impression my search trek has given me. Analytical ones by preference, and ones written by musicians and veterans in the music biz would be a bonus. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 18:20
Seriously people, MORE DRAMA over this band?  Come on now. I'm not their biggest fan, but I MUST agree with the guy that PA was probably the only place where the album was so ill received. Nevertheless, The problem of Pain: part 1 case could be one interesting sociology study: how the opinion of other people influence your own. I must say that, for this album, my opinion about it was not a bit influecenced by its actual grade. EDIT: This situation is what probably -------------   
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 18:58
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^ It didn't kill it off then, but it did maim it. As for Olav's post: I didn't even manage to find VM's review of The Problem of Pain on Progressor (or any Progressor review of that album), though a review of it there was mentioned in the interview. Just saw his reviews of earlier Torman Maxt albums. Most of the reviews I've read have been middling to very good at other sites, but I see very limited reviews of the album at most sites (just one review which makes it less trustworthy to me -- especially as I am unfamiliar with moist of those reviewers and know nothing of their music credentials/ educational background). It would be useful to check out other sites where it's been reviewed by a number of people. As for pros and semi-pros reviews, I'd like to see how, and if, it was reviewed in any scholarly music journals. I believe that most here simply did not like the music, or think it good. I don't really dislike it; just find it very boring/ unadventurous and feel it lacks sufficient contrast etc. That you think it's 4 stars is fine, though your review doesn't lead me to think that it is " 
Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection" material. What is,
though? I have a problem with the rating criteria, and I know many
ignore it or interpret it their own way. I treat 4 stars as what I
consider really "essential" to my collection, and what I find the best
of those essential ones I think of as sublime masterpieces.Interesting that it's as highly rated at progfreak as it is (due to the PA people overlap -- PA collabs commonly use that site -- course one was you and you've rated it at a few places): http://progfreak.com/Torman-Maxt-The-Problem-of-Pain-Part-1,_dbe,albums,_auto_6691348.xhtml - http://progfreak.com/Torman-Maxt-The-Problem-of-Pain-Part-1,_dbe,albums,_auto_6691348.xhtml Only a few rated it there, but is has a high rating:
What are some sites, other than progarchives and rateyourmusic, where it's been reviewed by at least a few people? How many sites did you find with positive reviews where it was reviewed by multiple people (and are unique reviews -- not just copy/ paste jobs from places they posted them before, as I've seen a fair amount of repetition of reviews at various sites)? ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: memowakeman
Date Posted: October 17 2010 at 22:24
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Pretty interesting interview. Hope the controversy between the band and reviewers end soon. ------------- Follow me on twitter @memowakeman |
Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 01:05
| Good on him, I disagree with most of his views, but it takes balls to speak out like that. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 04:44
I don't want to fight or anything, but just challenge this view. I think its a strange "rule" to apply that religion is not for rock stages. How is a concept album retelling the story of Job different from Aphrodite's Child 666, based on Saint John’s Revelation? If it works, as with 666 and atleast for me; Woven Hand, Albert Ayler or Allah-praising jazz artists such as Pharoah Sanders mm..., I much rather have a spiritual approach than a bunch of love songs. While I don't understand how its even possible for a grown (and educated?) man like Mr. Massaro to actually believe that ...The Bible [all the books of the Old and New Testaments] is the true written message of God to us... I believe the authors of the Bible were inspired by God and are therefore completely trustworthy..., isn't a religious agenda still just as valid as any other agendas? I'm not writing about Torman Maxt here, but in general (Out of curiosity I listened to three songs on their Myspace page, and it just confirmed what I already sort of knew: that its not my bag. But that's beside the point) ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 04:47
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Back for more? Good, I love a masochist.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 07:04
You know, a deadly cancer doesn't instantly kill somebody, in spite of the fact that one will sooner or later die from it. This was the cancer of the featured band. Besides, this website has a much higher number of dayly hits than we have members, so even if every single collab, reviewer and habitual users of the site, much like yourself, don't go though the front page, a myriad of people still do, so that is obviously not the problem.
Like it or not, other opinions do matter when you pick up something. If that was not so, we would not have to classify and rate everything we do, discover or know in order to systematize and ease the job of constructing an opinion and knowlege about it. That goes for science, philosophy and possibly every aspect of our lives. So, yes, if a lot of people hate something, it will be only natural that other people with little knowlege of such thing will have a stronger tendency NOT to like it. Same thing if many people like something.
That is a fact, proven by scientific research over the course of decades. That is how we as human beings behave, wether you like (or care to understand) or not. I was just trying to say that I went beyond that simple inertia and gave a legitimate try to the band. Their music is not a groundbraking masterpiece, but it is far from being as bad as it is portraited here. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 10:29
666 is absolutely and radically different to what Torman Maxt do, while Aphrodite Child take the St. John Book of Revelation as a theme and develops a work without any attempt of praising or convincing (As a fact they were banned from 1970 to 1972 because of the controversial concept), Torman Maxt is doing evangelism and trying to praise. Just listen infinity by Irene Papas and tell me if that 5 minutes orgasm will convince anybody about religion. This may sound contradictory, coming from the person who participates in religious threads defending EVERY religion, but I believe that when music is used to promote a determined religion or political party, it ceases to be quality music and turns into a jingle. Spiritual approach is great, listen Supper's Ready or some Jon Anderson's works, but they ae not doing religious proselytism. Music must be free, not an instrument, at least for me...I prefer the love songs, there are some good ones, like the above mentioned Supper's Ready, which is basically a love song mixed with other themes.
There we differ, I do understand how he believes and respect his beliefs, but I don't agree that this message is presented in an album without a warning or a label telling people what is it about, so they can avoid it if they want. Now, about having a religious agenda, I don't know if it's good or bad, the problem is that this guys say that we in Prog Archive has an agenda and that this is wrong, when the only ones with a clear agenda are them.-
Of course it's besides of the point, I wrote my review and said specifically why I rated the album with one star....Terrible drums, worst vocal and even worst choirs, the rest of the band (IN MY OPINION) is in the level of pub band. I don't agree with the fact of selling an album to promote any faith, but this hasn't influenced my rating. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 10:43
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I can't see anything wrong with selling an album to promote faith, it doesn't affect me. Anyway i heard the album now and I can honestly say it's not that bad...3 stars possibly. Although lyrically its not my thing and its a little repetitious, but I suppose thats the themes recuring. Yeah..its Ok and I will play it again. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 10:55
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As I said hundred times, I listen all day to music composed in part to praise god, music of the highest caliber ever. (see my first image in my signature). I actually look like a religious madman for the amount of versions and recordings of his religious works. Religion is not the issue here. The issue is that the band SUCKS. The drummer STINKS. The music is unoriginal to the extreme. But even that is an opinion. My real problem is people coming more than ONE year after the problem to attack reviewers who listened to the album and wrote negative reviews. Why didn't you do it back then? Why now? I don't know who has the agenda here, who is trying to "defend their territory". -------------
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 11:36
More than contradictory I think it sounds silly and not really thought through. Religion and art has been thightly connected for hundreds and even thousands of years. Bach's St. Matthews Passion just a jingle? Any Stabat Mater a jingle? How about Pharoah Sanders The Creator Has A Master Plan? And the music of Area, Art Bears, Henry Cow & Matching Mole are nothing but communist jingles? ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 11:36
But you have to understand that that's an opinion, not a fact. I think it's every bit as bad as it's portrayed here, and some people like you don't. I also write for Sea of Tranquility, which gave a positive review, and I still hate the album. People give Foxtrot, Images & Words, and Close to the Edge 1 star reviews. It's all based on personal opinion, not whether or not other people like it.
For example, check out my review of Pain of Salvation's Scarsick. If I remember correctly, I am the ONLY collaborator on PA to give that album a 5 star review. I don't give a sh*t what other people think, and I don't care how scientists think my mind works.
Of course, there is some truth to what you've said, but it's not the complete superlative statement that you make it seem. I can't speak for everyone, but my opinion is rarely, if ever influenced by what others think, especially when it comes to reviewing. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 11:38
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I can't help but agree 100% with the previous poster. It's almost an insult to call any religious music a "jingle"... Try listening to the Mass in B minor and tell me if it's just a jingle.... I insist, the issue here is not and never was religion. It's the music. Which is terrible. It's the artist, who attacks whoever dares not to praise him. And some people in PA, who play to his games... -------------
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 11:41
I have to say that I completely disagree with Ivan here, and I now consider myself an atheist.
Religious, anti-religious, satanic, sexual, violent, etc,etc. lyrics do not bother me. As long as they're of high-quality and are well-written, I'm fine. I do tend to think that Christian lyrics are extremely cheesy sometimes, but I'm not against them on principle. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 11:42
Well said, Teo!  I completely agree with you! -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 11:55
Bach made music to praise God, but not full of EXPRESS messages to guide people to a determined believe in something determinate. Now, for the T, you consider insulting to call EXPRESS MESSAGES IN FAVOUR OFF DETERMINED RELIGION a jingle, but that's mostly what it is
Despite not being short is a tune WITH WORDS used to ADVERTISE A PRODUCT CALLED RELIGION....ERGO IT'S A JINGLE The main reason for creating music, should be art, the main reason to create a jingle is to sell people a product...You can reach your conclusions easily, I heard lots of Christian musicians saying their main interest is to share the message of God...This is a jingle, no matter if I agree with the message. Praising God with the music as Bach did, is perfect (The masses don't have any explicit message to convince people), it's artistic music primarily done by JSB with all his skills to praise God, not to evangelize people with explicit messages) , but ADVERTISING a product called Christianity and trying to sell it to people using pseudo artistic music is not. Watch the 700 CLUB or EWTN (Catholic as me), both programs are full of so called artists who's main interest is to sell this product named Christianity through popular music, leaving art behind. I can't be offending anybody, because I would be offending what my religion does, but I have my GOD GIVEN RIGHT to disagree with this practice. Iván
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 11:57
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BTW: As I said before, even when I disagree with Christian Rock....I rated the album with one star because the drumming, vocals and choirs are terrible and because the music is unimaginative and repetitive. Their religious message has no relation with the rating, if they did amazing music I would had to accept it, but this is not the case. Iván -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:01
I agree with your given right Ivan. I disagree with your conclusions though. Music can be used for anything. Belive me I hold it in a special sacred place in my heart and brain, but I know art and music is a human product and as such can be propaganda. The majestic "propaganda" music of Shostakovich for example (not that he loved doing the propaganda but anyway) can't be deeper and more profound... Another example of my not having problems with music used for "selling" something... And Ivan, why you always have to use bolds and caps?  -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:02
The same as I. The album sucks. Period. -------------
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:06
| I think the debate is less about religion than questioning the integrity of some very good reviewers, which is what you are doing when you ascribe motive and suggest they are not rating the music as they truly believe it to be. Perhaps this occured somewhere, but I find it hard to believe all 12-14 Collabs in question, some who were not even present during the controversy, have intentionally downrated several stars to punish this band. Guys like Umur and Jeff especially, seem very objective to me and unlikely to be "colored" by a desire to bash. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:12
I'll give you an example, Neil Morse, I don't agree with his message, I believe in some points is at least aggressive with Catholicism, but he does outstanding MUSIC, so I haven't made a negative rating of his albums because I would be saying a lie.. I remembered that I was a fan of Silvio Rodriguez (.you must know him), he does wonderful music, but he uses it to support Fidel Castro's regimen, this is also a jingle. Do you believe it's OK? And what's the difference between both? Iván
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:14
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Music to put a message across is not a jingle. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:15
Say what you will, but the main difference between an old mass by Bach and Torman Maxt's concept album based on the Book of Job, is the quality. No matter how much of a genius Bach was, his religious music is still promoting christianity (and quite effectively too, especially when hearing it live performed by over 100 people in a church). ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:18
Bach's music was originally made to be played in a church, a place where people go to praise, not in a rock stage where people go to enjoy music and will receive a subliminal message. And of course, quality is a huuuuuuuuuge difference between both. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:31
| To be fair, Torman Maxt did not resurrect this issue, we did. they were reluctant to give an interview because of the bad experience they had, but were persuaded to do so. Let's not make misguided accusations here; we asked the questions, they just answered them. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:39
Well it was the first featured band I think you are ascribing too much to this. You have no idea how it would have gone if people hadn't jumped on the first one. Nobody said mean things about 3RDEGREE. I think people aren't doing it because they don't think it's worth it, but you shouldn't definitively state that something is obvious when neither of us have access to any relevant data.
Yes, that is what caused people to want to write a bunch of reviews rather than just ignore it. But I find it insulting and wrong to say that people are not being sincere in their opinion. Your final sentence is just your opinion, and it's one that's obviously not shared by a lot of the people here: the opinions of people on other websites has nothing to do with it. Maybe you have just been inured to terrible, generic music by evaluating bands on the prog metal team? ;-) ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:43
I even said I understand how and artist can attack negative reviewers (not that I think it makes any artist look like an intelligent person anyway). What has been said HERE is what has troubled me. -------------
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Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 12:56
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I would like to expand on what Easy Livin says. I originally got in touch with the band because I thought they had an interesting story to tell (and a new upcoming album) which would enhance ProgArchives. Contact established and we had a frank exchange of emails about mine and other reviews. During the whole process, I advised, even urged the band to express their honest views in the interview. They have evidently taken my advice. I am very happy with the Torman Maxt interview and fully responsible for it's publication and the reactions it has caused. I am also satisfied with my own review of their album.
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 13:13
Good job Torodd  You did what a good interviewer does. Nobody, at least not I, has any negative feelings about this issue regarding your work. -------------
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 15:04
. . . and then veered off in to old, tender territory by making wild accusations about specific reviewers on this site. I don't recall the question being posed: ''So, do you think there was a conspiracy to go against your album unfairly?'' If that's how he feels, then that's how he feels. And frankly, I don't blame him. The amount of one-star reviews is astonishingly insulting and unrealistic. And yet, I know that nobody here would ever unfairly rate an album in the negative direction. So, I can understand where the musician's opinion comes from, but I also understand the outrage being expressed by folks here who felt attacked by the accusations, and the other forum members who hopped over to the guy's side in all of this.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 15:29
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Very interesting.......I broke a "rule" of mine in that I will usually listen to anything I find new here without regard to reviews. But I remember this band and the 1-2 star ratings it received and figured not to give them a try. I have just downloaded part 1 and part 2, just to see what all the hoopla is about, will take a listen tonight.
I think Teo has a valid point....my only question is why are the PA powers that be giving this band the extra attention/2nd chance? What about all the other 1-2 star ratings?
Also Torodd...I do think that was a very good interview, for sure worth 4 stars in my book.
Anyhow I am just a peon...but this is interesting from many perspectives.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 16:23
As I said before Torodd, you did an excellent job, you achieved something not even professional interviewers do, the band member answered you something that otherwise he would had kept for himself, and that's excellent. You are not to be blamed for what they say, by the contrary, you have to receive a congratulation if you can make an interviewed answer his whole truth without hiding anything. GREAT JOB. Iván -------------
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 16:44
I think you are thinking about this too much in a mathematical way. Human relations are not that simple. The first impression matters more than you are giving it credit for and this was one hell of a bad first impression: the weight of having such a bad feedback in such a short ammount of time do influence other people to bet on advertising their music here or not. Why do you think that more and more artists are trying to get volunteers to review their music instead of advertising it on the website? Free feedback? OK, that's reasonable enough, but limiting the knowlege of their music to people who individually check reviews is much different than having a heading piece of advertisement on a website that accessed more than 50k times a month. That's more than 1.600 people of a very specific audience visiting PA everyday. Still think it doesn't matter?
Where the hell did you pulled that from? I did not say people were not sincere, don't put words in my mouth. Being influenced is not the same as NOT being sincere and you are smart enough to know the difference. And the info that other sites had such an uncoditional contrary opinion compared to PA shows how important the firsts opinions are, how influential they can be, not that people were fooled, suckered or lied. Besides, try and keep the ad hominem out of this, thank you very much. -------------
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 17:31
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I think Tony seems like a sympathetic guy and I fully understand why it hurts that so many people dislike the music he and his brothers make. I also understand Tony´s suspicion that some reviewers bashed the album because of their unhappiness with the deleted reviews. Personally I was very new to the site at the time this happened and didn´t really understand the fuzz. I just downloaded the album out of curiosity and wrote a review based on what I heard on the album. The situation did not affect my rating one bit. I just really felt the album was an album way below average all things considered ( production, musicianship, lyrics and songwriting). I would probably write a less harsh review today ( I´ve learned a bit of diplomacy in the years since I started writing) but my rating would be the same. ------------- http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - Metal Music Archives https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 22:45
Am i missing something? What did the Tony say that he would have normally kept to himself? There were good questions and good answers. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 18 2010 at 23:01
1.- Normally no person giving an interview for a determined site, will say this site has an agenda against him. 2.- It's amazing for a band member to admit he asked that the bad reviews were deleted because he paid for advertising.:
A musician buys advertising, not the honest opinion of the people Now, the questions were excellent, the answers were terrible. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 04:29
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So what, we're not allowed to give bad reviews to albums about Christ-inanity because it just means we're bashing the religion? Couldn't it be that the music sucks? |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 04:31
| BTW, I think it's hysterical that the last track on that album was called "A Great Silence". After what came before it, a silence would be pretty great. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 05:16
Textbook introduces a brand new perspective here. Always interesting when someone who hasn't really been paying attention to the discussion comes along and says something really fresh and original. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 05:27
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I think if I actually read through every post in every thread here before I responded myself, I would leave the forum. IT WOULD TOO BE A BAD THING
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 05:43
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^Would it be so bad if you just had a quick look? 75% of the posts on these two and a half pages is PA -members writing variations over: the reason for my one star is that the music sucks! ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 05:49
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Yes but that's understandable given what the guy said in the interview. He's trying to say that actually the album isn't bad and we're pretending to dislike it for some odd reason. The only thing to do in the face of this is to say "No, the album actually is bad."
I think this guy's just an amateur really. I mean they've been together for 17 years and have gotten nowhere- not that that's proof of sucking but it suggests something isn't being done right. He doesn't even know how to accept bad press.
One of New Zealand's biggest rock bands once gave me some good advice (not that I ever needed to use it because I never got an album out) which I can believe- "Never read your own reviews. It's really difficult because people will shove them in your face all the time and the label will phone you up to discuss them and so on, but seriously, don't read them. They just mess with your head. Listen to the album yourself and just talk to fans at shows and if there aren't that many fans at shows, maybe then you need to rethink. That's all you need to know."
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 06:14
It had really been done to death long before you came along, and I was just having a laugh on your behalf. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 08:23
Then again, this is just about the only website with negative reviews about this item that I have been able to find, after searching rather extensively. That, along with the backdrop history they have on this site, does make it look a bit iffy seen from the perspective of the band. And people not involved with this website as well one might assume. Try googling for reviews on this disc yourself, and see what results you get. Personally I'm really interested in tracking down other negative reviews of this item, as I really dislike this site as of now being the only one I have come across that has such a negative perspective on this effort. That views differ is all right. That one website differs vastly from all others does look strange. Getting factual information that the case isn't as skewed as it appears to be right now would make me feel much more at ease with that situation. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 09:28
I agree it's too much of a coicidence that all these other prog sites gave positive reviews and this is the only site i've seen that trashed it. And i agree that the band made a mistake by asking that negative reviews not be published for that month because they obviously paid for that later. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 09:30
A musician buys advertising, not the honest opinion of the people
Now, the questions were excellent, the answers were terrible.
Iván
The answers were honest and how he felt,not terrible at all. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 10:24
If you believe that admitting he only paid for advertising if the site deleted the terrible reviews is not terrible...Well I disagree. Plus it makes me doubt about some good reviews he got on other sites., specially when he said:
No guys, it's not the same, you can use whatever you want in a newspaper ad, but you can't buy the reviews section. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 11:31
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Well I read the whole interview and actually went over a few parts 2-3x to make sure I understood.
For whatever its worth like I said I downloaded both albums and gave an overview listen last night.
My first impression was the production quality of the new album part 2 is much better than than part 1. Once I noticed that then I started doing song/album comparisons and this was a glaring issue with part 1.
My personal impression of the drummer on the first album was the production effort I think hurt him badly, as I think in the 2nd album it "sounds" better.....Does he play better? Don't know...but sounds better.
I just feel this band is a side project for all the members, like Tony states, he's an architect and seems busy taking care of his clients and I am sure the other members are trying to take care of their familes with work and Torman Maxt is not 100% a dedicated project and unfortunately for these 2 albums it shows.
But I don't really have a problem with that, as long as I know this going in.
2 Stars IMHO. My 2 cents everyone...... -------------
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 14:53
------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 15:53
Thats a poor excuse as most prog bands are made up of people with full time jobs outside of music. It certainly doesnt hurt Anekdoten now, does it? ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 16:30
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How many unique reviews/ reviewers are there that give it such high ratings though? In some cases I see the same reviews being posted at different sites (and then one must verify that the reviewer has no affiliation with the band). How many sites with very positive multiple reviews (and not including reviews that were formerly posted elsewhere) are there? I did a quite extensive search and didn't find that many unique ones for the album. We talk about other site's reviewing it, but commonly that just means one person who posted a review at a site (not some general consensus of quality). This is not to undermine those at other sites who did write positive reviews, but I'd rather focus on sites with multiple reviews. Perhaps various people were harsher on it here due to the circumstances (I might think it two stars -- three and above for me equals I really enjoyed this album and is music that I will keep returning to -- worthwhile to my collection). Even some that I would consider two star, or one star, albums in my collection I genuinely enjoy considerably. I don't know if any more academic journals of music have reviewed it. Be interesting to hear from those who are really well versed in music theory. I'm just an armchair critic with limited musical training and knowledge (hardly conservatory material, not by a long shot). I know what I like.... I may return to the album to see if it appeals more now as I'm at a rather different place in my musical journey than I was when I heard it and sometime initially difficult/ challenging music takes a long time to grow on one (maybe years before the amazingness clicks for some). Years down the road this may be thought of as a classic and inspire a whole generation of musicians/ composers. Or be discovered by rappers and popularised that way for its choice groove. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 17:07
Exactly. I know that one of the guys in Echolyn (Chris Buzby) is a school teacher on the weekdays, Alan Morse is a businessman, etc. etc. Just because the band isn't their full-time job doesn't mean that they can't still make good music. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 20:24
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To be honest Olav, I don't give three damns about how you feel about PA having a lower average for reviews of Maxt. I'll stand by my review every hour if you want. I listened to the music, is crap. Period. If you don't like the average, it's your bad, not PA reviewers'. Damn just kill this non-issue already. -------------
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 20:43
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When you keep it oh-so-entertaining, Teo? Never!
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Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 21:10
| I'm not going to post in here. |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: October 19 2010 at 23:15
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LOL. Man you guys take your sh*t seriously. OMG t3h music forum is life and death!!!!1111 Lighten up or if you must, go get mad about something that matters. ------------- 
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Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 02:37
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What happened with Torman Maxt on this site is this.
1. a reviewer rated it badly (one star) that rating was removed and caused controversy.
2. due to this controversy people reacted and listened to the album.
3. people who would normally wouldn't enjoy such album and would never even bother to listen to it suddenly decided that freedom of speech was in jeopardy so their speech should be heard. an thus they rated it with 1 star because they don't like the music (fair) but of course they don't like it for it's not music for their ears.
Basically MOB mentallity got the best of us and people who shouldn't have reviewed the album in the first place rated it with an unfair 1 star (not from individual reviewers perspective, but certainly from the Mob perspective).
they forget to be objective.
The album isn't great, but it surely isn't that bad, 3 stars for effort, maybe 1 star if you don't like jingle's or are into more heavy metal than this provides, maybe even 3,5 stars if a christian mesage appeals to you.
anyway. I like the album. and maybe I'll write a review to counter balance the negativity they unjustly get.
Their not the next best thing, but still decent.
anyway good interview, always good to see someone openly talking about their fate, and what it means to them, don't like his Sarah Palin whoreshipping though. ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 02:55
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^ He's a Palin supporter? Missed that part. Well, that seals it for me. He's insane. Most good artists are. I'm more intrigued to hear the music, now.
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 02:58
Considering that the thread about Mono plugging their DVD only got like 17 replies, no, I don't really think so.
Either we were fooled, suckered, or lied, or we are idiots, or the album actually just sucks. Which is it? You can't say that the general opinion of PA about the album is wrong without insulting the reviewers.
Psh, T would even agree with me on that one. :P
I read every response before replying to any thread, except for the massive argument megathreads, then I only go back a few pages. I find it alarming that so many other people don't. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 03:04
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^ I meant that the album was listened because the reveiwer wanted to review and rate the album. Instead of that the album was reviewed and rated because the album was listened, that's preconceived and due to forum sentiments, ergo mob mentality. ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 03:20
How can anyone be objective about music?
Maybe a good idea. When I have some more time to listen to music and write reviews, I'll do the same thing. Until now, I have only heard the PA mp3 samples two or three times, not the whole album. Not masterpieces, but if these songs are representative for the album, I think that the current 1.71 average is at least one star too low.
Mind your language!
  ------------- 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 10:44
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It might ne true that many people heard the album because of the controversy. Otherwise, many people wouldn't even have known such an album and band existed. That doesn't take away from the fact that the album is very close to being a complete piece of crap. -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 10:56
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So I think what you're trying to say, T, is that The Problem of Pain Part 1 is not a good album?
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 11:02
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It isn't crap, it's rather good. And I hate God. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 11:06
... I'm just upset with some people "righteousness" here.. Suddenly we have some moral avengers trying to tell us that we did an non-objective job. I don't need any "judges". If they are so hurt with Maxt's low rating in PA, I guess maybe PA is a place where they might feel uncomfortable? The Problem of that album, as I say in that review, is the pain generated by the listening experience.  But I still can't wait for PART II !!! -------------
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 11:08
This is probably the tenth time you called the album a complete piece of crap. And that they STINK and SUCK etc... and that this is a fact as well. (Thought you were one of those relativists that think its all a matter of taste?) You do understand that Torodd inteviewed human being, and that this human being is probably reading all of this? If so, is it really necessary to aggressively insult his music and his band in every single post you make here? ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 11:08
I already bought it. I thought it was good. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 11:10
Didn't know it was out. Better than the first one? -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 11:15
-------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 11:21
Absolutely, but I don't know if you'll think so. Only $4.99 by the way. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 11:23
I'll give it a try. Though I'll sample it first. I'm all for second chances remember ? -------------
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 11:35
I never get as personal as you do, and although I've managed to piss you off several times, I don't feel free to "call people things" at all. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:17
I try not to get personal. But as you said about Maxt I'm also human and I'm also allowed to react, sometimes in less-than-perfect ways. I don't even have a problem with Maxt, is the people judging reviewer's opinions that pissed me off. They don't have to agree with the reviews (maybe the album is great and will be remembered in 100 years I don't know) but don't question the truthfulness of our opinions towards the album. That's all. That I chose to attack the music somewhat relentlessly because of this is just a signal that I can also overreact. I don't want any more "feuds" with you. i think we can coexist. Sometimes we might even agree. There's a big difference in how we act, of course. I let that go. -------------
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:32
Guys I totally agree....I know tons of artists don't rely on music as only form of income....and I am not making an excuse for them. I have listened to each album over the past 3 days and I do agree it is barely worthy of 2 stars.
I was simply expanding on what Tony mentioned in the interview, and as I stated due to this not being a full time project, it shows!
You guys bring up another question surrounding this in that are they as talented as Anekdoten or Echolyn? Of course not.....
This thread needs to end....the point has been made by many, the albums seem to be deserving of nothing above a 2. Teo was spot on....period.
-------------
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:35
Three. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 12:40
part 1 = 1 star
part 2 = 3 star
Avg = 2 star
I am fine with this.....I do think part 2 is much better than part 1. I do agree with you more tho Dog...
I didn't pay for either album, available on Zune Marketplace with Zune Pass.
-------------
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 14:19
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I have found this whole thread quite fascinating. I've been visiting this site since at least 2005 (member since 2007 I think) and I was completely unaware of any controversy over this album, and I visit the forums and front page almost daily. I do remember seeing a lot of 1 and 2 stars reviews for it though. For my part, however, it was reading the 8/10 review on DPRP that convinced me the album was not for me (good reviews help me figure out if an album is for me or not, regardless of whether or not the reviewer liked it). After that, the consistently low ratings here just confirmed my decision. Though reading all this makes me want to hear what all the fuss is about, which I may do (or at least I'll check out the samples). All in all, a very good interview. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 14:29
You can check out the whole album...it's free after all. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 15:55
I'll freely admit that I only listened to the album because of all the controversy that surrounds it, and with everything thats gone on its human nature to want to see what all the fuss is about.
But, other than the fact that I expected the lyrics to be bad when I went into it (though not that bad) I had no preconcieved notions as I had never heard them before, and now I'm pretty certain I'll never listen to them again either. Definitely not for me and its not hard to see why so many people, being advertised a FREE album, followed it up and its not hard for me to see why so many people, many of them with wildely divergant tastes, really didnt like this album and reacted with low ratings and reviews. No mob mentallity involved as its clear many of the reviews are well written and thought out, and spread out over months. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 05:09
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@Olav: I don't find it surprinsing at all that there's a major difference between PA ratings and the ratings from other sites. The results of submitting for review a product to 1) free-to-all reviewing places with a diverse demographic and 2) well targeted independent reviewers will always be very different in the case of a product with such traits as this particular music album. I mean, on PA there are "prog-fans", but there are also people interested only in classic prog and not in its modern revivals, people interested in hardcore avantgarde, in the indie scene, in the extreme metal music, etc. What happened here is that, like tuxon also explained, this album's public history attracted reviewers from different niches than that of its own. Normally here every album gets reviewed mostly by those who are interested in it in the first place and the average rating settles according to its niche; and such occasions when the site creates missed encounters like that of (to quote just some famous cases ) The T with avantgarde, Rocktopus with prog-metal, or Certif1ed with post-rock, etc., well those are normally just exceptions to an otherwise "natural" social phenomenon. I'm not surprised that TM's album in discussion got OK/good ratings from targeted prog sites and zines. But if every site on the internet, from all corners of the spectrum of taste, would have reviewed the album, I guess the average rating would have been similar to that of PA. I don't suppose they sent the album to NME, Pitchfork, NPR and all the indie sites... |