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Topic: "5 star" albums and masterpiece.Posted By: O666
Subject: "5 star" albums and masterpiece.
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 06:07
Hi. I want to talk about "5 star" albums and Masterpieces. When one reviewer assign "5 star" to one album, he/she think this album is "Masterpiece". Is it correct? I dont know what reviewer think and I want to know this. Many of us have common opinion about many albums like " The lamb lies...." or " In the court ...." and call them "masterpiece". This different to "5 star" albums. There are albums with rated over 4.3 and not masterpiece or few guys think these are masterpiece . I dont want to know "What is masterpiece?" or this kind of questions. I want to know different between "5 star" and "masterpiece". Why many of high rate albums isn't masterpiece? Thank you.
Replies: Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 06:11
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 06:32
Do you think all " 5 star" albums are masterpiece? Why many of high rate albums are not masterpiece? When one reviewer assign "5 star" to one album, Is he/she think this is masterpiece? What is different between high rate albums and masterpieces? I hope you undrestand me.
Posted By: EnderEd
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 06:39
O666, I think it is safe to say that if someone considers an album worthy of a 5star rating, then they also consider it a Masterpiece. ProgArchives tries to steer us to think that way, as their definition of 5-star = Masterpiece: "
Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music"
I think maybe you're looking at the weighted average of ratings? Some malcontents will hate Pink Floyd, or Dark Side of the Moon, so they'll give it a 1-star, making the overall AVERAGE of an album less the 5-star. That doesn't mean it is not a Masterpiece.
Basically, a 5-star album is a perfect album, excellent in song writing, musicianship, production, etc.-- it is a Masterpiece of the genre. 5-star = Masterpiece.
Does that sound right? Is there a particular album or example on ProgArchives with a rating you're struggling with?
------------- --EnderEd
Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 06:42
I'm not sure I like the descriptor "Masterpiece". I recently reviewed Gungfly's Please Be Quiet as a 5 star album - I would call it a perfect album, but I'm not sure I'd call it a masterpiece... it kind of suggest it needs to be very original and unique, or that is needs to be in the top 50 albums ever or whatever.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile
Posted By: EnderEd
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 07:01
Nathaniel -- I did something similar with Frost*'s 2008 "Experiments in Mass Appeal". I loved the album, thought it was the best thing that came out in 2008, so I gave it a 5-star rating. But it's not a "Masterpiece", and I regretted my rating as soon as I made it. It's a good album, maybe a GREAT album, but 4-star would have covered that: "
Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection"
Generally, when I'm perusing reviews, I pay special attention when someone gives it a 5-star or 4-star. So I think it's ok to reserve 5-star for Masterpieces only.
------------- --EnderEd
Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 07:28
EnderEd wrote:
Nathaniel -- I did something similar with Frost*'s 2008 "Experiments in Mass Appeal". I loved the album, thought it was the best thing that came out in 2008, so I gave it a 5-star rating. But it's not a "Masterpiece", and I regretted my rating as soon as I made it. It's a good album, maybe a GREAT album, but 4-star would have covered that: "
Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection"
Generally, when I'm perusing reviews, I pay special attention when someone gives it a 5-star or 4-star. So I think it's ok to reserve 5-star for Masterpieces only.
Yeah, but to me, 3 stars is kinda meh and 4 stars is just "it's great" - but I think 5 stars for an amazing album is okay... it seems silly to me just to use 5 stars on "masterpieces" - because to me, masterpiece isn't even a particular quality level, it's seems more like an attribute to me... if I'm making any sense at all.
5 stars is amazing 4 great/good 3 it's alright 2 it's kind of rubbish 1 appaling
if you use;
5 MASTERPIECE 4 Good addition 3 Alright 2 Kind of rubbish 1 Appaling
It seems to me there's something missing...
I heard that before, this website had a zero-star rating - to me, that seems like a good idea, because then we could have
5 Masterpiece 4 amazing 3 good 2 alright 1 kind of rubbish 0 appaling
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 07:51
EnderEd wrote:
O666, I think it is safe to say that if someone considers an album worthy of a 5star rating, then they also consider it a Masterpiece. ProgArchives tries to steer us to think that way, as their definition of 5-star = Masterpiece: " Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music"
I think maybe you're looking at the weighted average of ratings? Some malcontents will hate Pink Floyd, or Dark Side of the Moon, so they'll give it a 1-star, making the overall AVERAGE of an album less the 5-star. That doesn't mean it is not a Masterpiece.
Basically, a 5-star album is a perfect album, excellent in song writing, musicianship, production, etc.-- it is a Masterpiece of the genre. 5-star = Masterpiece.
Does that sound right? Is there a particular album or example on ProgArchives with a rating you're struggling with?
50% Yes. "Dark side.." is masterpiece but you can find albums with higher average rate!! and these aren't masterpiece. You undrestand me well but I search for ONE THING. I think masterpiece have one strange thing and I cant explain it. I search for help to find this "ONE THING". I dont believe all 5 star albums are masterpiece and I think reviewer who rate 5 star to many albums, know many of these 5 star albums arent masterpiece. Please help me to undrestand that ONE THING.( maybe 2 or 3 things!!)
Posted By: EnderEd
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 07:52
3 does not really = "meh" on ProgArchives. Here's the ProgArchives official rating designations:
Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music
Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection Good, but non-essential
Collectors/fans only
Poor. Only for completionists
I prefer leaving 5-star for "Masterpiece" rather than for an album that I really love and think is awesome. Is there an objective (vs subjective) criteria for defining Masterpiece? I think so, but many on ProgArchives would have a hard time with that. For example, I love almost anything and everything by Coheed & Cambria and Rush (except for their latest rehashes, Caravan/BU2B) -- But I would never give their most recent albums 5-stars, cause I know that I know they are not Masterpieces. On the other hand, I cannot stand Edvard Munch's painting The Scream, but would list it as a Masterpiece nonetheless.
------------- --EnderEd
Posted By: EnderEd
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 08:51
O666 wrote:
I dont believe all 5 star albums are masterpiece and I think reviewer who rate 5 star to many albums, know many of these 5 star albums arent masterpiece. Please help me to undrestand that ONE THING.( maybe 2 or 3 things!!)
Agreed. Music lovers (me too) like to promote their favorites, so sometimes too readily 5-star them.
Before I take a stab at the ONE (or 2 or 3) things, please understand that music, like all arts, is an aesthetic phenomenon, therefore incredibly subject to subjectivism . The incredible 20th century composer, Aaron Copland, coined a phrase "the gifted listener", meaning, like a trained wine connoisseur, one who is able to discern distinctions in the composition moreso than the average person. That ain't me, for sure. As I said before, I know much of my favorite music would not be considered "Masterpiece" status. (I learned from a college roommate that when someone is able to make a distinction between what they consider a "favorite" and what they consider a "best", pay attention-- they're at least trying to be discerning beyond personal preference...)
OK-- a stab at "Masterpiece"?
1) Flawless (take almost anything Bach/Mozart here) 2) Rapturous - demanding of admirable attention; transporting; ravishing 3) Enduring - its 'greatness' is not temporal, but recognized across generations (I like to ask myself, Will I be listening to this with as much affection 10 years from now?) 4) Recognized - not so much "popular", but that a significant percentage of listeners (not just 'fans') recognize it as "above and beyond"
Does that work?
------------- --EnderEd
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 09:42
We have had a number of debates on the forum with regard to the five star rating system. Whilst I am happy with it, it is the casde, I think, that a lot of five star ratings would, in fact, be given 4 1/2 by the reviewer if that option were available, in the same way as they might give an album a 9 star rating on a ten point scale. This is the reason why I like Progfreak's rating system.
As an example, my very first review for PA was Happiness is the Road by Marillion. I gave it five stars. However, as much as I think it is a wonderful album, on reflection I would probably give it a four star rating now, if only for the reason that I simply could not place it in the same bracket as genuine masterpieces such as Marbles & Brave.
That said, this is not a pitch to change the rating system here. By and large, I think it works very well, and if I see an album with average ratings above 3.5, then I know, usually, that I am going to get a good one.
------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 11:17
Thank you Ed for your list. I agree with that but this list about musical theory and taste. I think music have different side. I dont know how call this side and what word suitable for my mean. I call thst "spritual". Spritual side of music is very important too and in many cases this side may creat Masterpiece. For example Pink Floyd's "The Wall". I want compare "The Wall" and Mahavishnu's "Birds of Fire". I know its not good compare but I try to explain my mean. I want compare musicians one by one. John McLaughlin is very faster and he have better technique. This isn't about my taste or opinion. This is a fact. I die for Dave gilmour but I'm sure John is better guitarist. Billy Cobham is very better than Mason too. Laird and Hammer better than Waters and Wright. I repeat that I know I can't compare 2 different genres but I dont have another option. Is Mahavishnu greater than Pink Floyd? Is Birds of Fire better than The Wall? NO. The Wall is masterpiece and Birds of Fire is masterpiece too. I try to say Technique,Musician ship and these kind of parameters never make Masterpiece. They make Perfect or Great music. I know many Mahavishnu fans say Birds of Fire is masterpiece. OK I agree. But why? I think we must change point of view and search for spritual reasons. I hope you undrestand me. In your list you write about "Enduring". I want to know how musicians make Enduring music, Thanks
Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 11:31
EnderEd wrote:
O666 wrote:
I dont believe all 5 star albums are masterpiece and I think reviewer who rate 5 star to many albums, know many of these 5 star albums arent masterpiece. Please help me to undrestand that ONE THING.( maybe 2 or 3 things!!)
Agreed. Music lovers (me too) like to promote their favorites, so sometimes too readily 5-star them.
Before I take a stab at the ONE (or 2 or 3) things, please understand that music, like all arts, is an aesthetic phenomenon, therefore incredibly subject to subjectivism . The incredible 20th century composer, Aaron Copland, coined a phrase "the gifted listener", meaning, like a trained wine connoisseur, one who is able to discern distinctions in the composition moreso than the average person. That ain't me, for sure. As I said before, I know much of my favorite music would not be considered "Masterpiece" status. (I learned from a college roommate that when someone is able to make a distinction between what they consider a "favorite" and what they consider a "best", pay attention-- they're at least trying to be discerning beyond personal preference...)
OK-- a stab at "Masterpiece"?
1) Flawless (take almost anything Bach/Mozart here) 2) Rapturous - demanding of admirable attention; transporting; ravishing 3) Enduring - its 'greatness' is not temporal, but recognized across generations (I like to ask myself, Will I be listening to this with as much affection 10 years from now?) 4) Recognized - not so much "popular", but that a significant percentage of listeners (not just 'fans') recognize it as "above and beyond"
Does that work?
See, I don't agree with 4. If there is an unknown album that's absolutely amazing, why should it be a 4 star just cause no one knows about it? Also, I don't think being flawless is that important... it's really impossible to say what is/isn't a flaw - you get into that argument of "the perfect/best song". You could start saying, "oh, but really, would 20th Century Schizoid Man not be better if he took that note out over there?" and it just get's silly.
I suppose 3 star isn't supposed to mean "meh", but it does, really, just by how many stars are above it - if there is a three star album, then there are LOADS of 4 stars and 5 star albums above it, so why would you get a three star album - if it's worse than all those 5 AND 4s (which in themselves are worse that the 5s) then it must be kind of meh.
So this is my viewpoint on the matter - I don't think 5 should represent a "flawless masterpiece" it should represent an "amazing album, which seems as if it will be endearing in the future".
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 11:40
For me:
5 stars: Brilliant album! I love listening to it. 4 stars: Great album with a few flaws. 3 stars: Good, but definitely has it's weaknesses. 2 stars: Meh. It's not that good, but it has a few redeeming qualities. 1 star: Terrible. Never want to hear it again.
Posted By: omri
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 11:55
Masterpiece is a BIG word !
I hate big words !
When I find an album is realy briliant and moving and I fall in love with it (oh, love, another big word, change to realy like and enjoy) then this album is top quality for me and it deserves 5 stars. Trying to identify a masterpiece as some extra .... (what ever) sounds rubbish philosophy to me.
It is just a word - a name. "If you call a rose in different name, will it lose it's blossom?"
------------- omri
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 12:50
I don;t like having the word "masterpiece" in the description (nor the essential or excellent addition attributes that refer to all collections). It's too subjective, and I don't want to rate something a masterpiece, say Yes' Close to the Edge, really high just because others think it a masterpiece. For me, that's a good album, but not that great. One person's masterpiece can be another's piece of kaka. What's essential to me will not be essential to another.
I look at it a little like this:
5 Stars: An essential album to my collection, and one of my favourites in its category. Also what I consider to be the act's best work (the band's masterpiece, but that is problematic since I can think of cases where acts have releases several albums that I think superb). I might describe the album as sublime, mind-blowing, and or revelatory.
4 Stars: An album I consider really excellent, and a great one for it's category, but one I find sub-sublime. Not a desert island pick.
3 Stars: Good to very good albums of its category.
2 Stars: Mediocre (less than good to quite poor -- for its category)
1 Star: Really bad to I find this definitely poor. Amongst the dregs of its category.
I think it's important to compare it to the perceived quality of others of its category rather an all of progressive rock (as well as compare it to other albums by the act); however, one could say that masterpiece should transcend category expectations and be essential to any well-rounded progressive music collection rather than just Prog, I'd say). One person may hate chamber rock (or be unfamiliar with it) and vote a highly thought of album by people who are familiar with such music by, say, Art Zoyd, low, but I think a familiarity with the scenes is important for ratings purposes. With so-called masterpieces, I guess one should be able to say that even if someone will not like the style of music, it deserves respect as amongst the best of its ilk in the rater's opinion, and those who want well-rounded collections (as well as fans of its category) would be advised to hear it.
Sorry if I'm not answering the question, but I wasn't really sure what the question is.
I don't believe in handing out masterpiece status to albums just because they are largely regarded as masterpieces, nor do I believe in penalizing albums because they are obscure. While one can bring in a level of objectivity into ones frameworks of analysis, the ultimate score will be very subjective (most of the time, at least).
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 12:59
5 stars: an album that, were I to lose it, I would lose a chunk of my soul 4: a really great work, worth buying and worth multiple listens 3: Tolerable - has it's strong points, but isn't the sort of thing I would actively seek to listen to more than once 2: I could see how some people might sort of like this, but it really shouldn't be anyone's favourite (not by a long shot) and I, personally, am never going to listen to it again if I have any say in the matter 1: No matter how ass-backwards someone's musical tastes are, no matter how many times they were hit in the head with a hammer, I can not possibly envision any member of the human race enjoying this album. I, personally, would be too ashamed to even keep it in my house for use as a coaster
Does that help?
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 13:13
Masterpiece is a BIG WORD. Yes. Any thing have own definition. I can't say "I only enjoy Kafka's books" because it mean that Kafka write books JUST for enjoy!!! I agree many POP music make for enjoy but we have serious music,books and other "art related" and we must use best words to define our thoughts and senses.Musical products produce for several purposes. Many musicians release songs and albums for money like many writers and ... I dont talk about this kind of music or this side of it. I focus to artistic side of music and I start this topic for this mean. ART is big. I believe many of musics isn't ART. I think many of POP music have good compose, orchestrasion,arrangment and these kind of properties but they make for "enjoy" and "money". I dont think music like " DUN's Eros" made for money!!! I mean "MAKE" is different to "CREATE" and I talk about CREATE,
Love is big word but exist. Maybe I dont ENJOY love and maybe love hurt me but Love is one part of my soul like any others. I want to discover artistic side of music with listen to other's opinion and experiences. Maybe I am a rookie fan of Progressive music and this question solved for other fans and they discovered this before me.
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 13:25
Sorry for snipping: "...Love is big word but exist. Maybe I dont ENJOY love and maybe love hurt me but Love is one part of my soul like any others..." (O666).
You mention love, but I think a "masterpiece", though in the ear, and even the loins, of the behearer, for me can be one of those albums I don't just love, but there's an almost erotic quality/ tingly sensation when listening to the music. One doesn't just love it, one makes love with it. Not literally, of course. It has eargasmic qualities.
Herbie Hancock's Crossings is one such album for me, but it leaves some others limp.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 13:58
Masterpiece is:
the most outstanding work of a creative artist or craftsman
an outstanding achievement http://www.google.fi/url?q=http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dmasterpiece&sa=X&ei=O6F-TM2aFJS7jAetlpjzCg&ved=0CBEQpAMoAA&usg=AFQjCNHOTHXkugq8L25bLrFz7mPnwUGjZA -
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 14:01
Vompatti wrote:
Masterpiece is:
the most outstanding work of a creative artist or craftsman
an outstanding achievement http://www.google.fi/url?q=http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dmasterpiece&sa=X&ei=O6F-TM2aFJS7jAetlpjzCg&ved=0CBEQpAMoAA&usg=AFQjCNHOTHXkugq8L25bLrFz7mPnwUGjZA -
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 14:14
Nathaniel607 wrote:
5 Masterpiece 4 amazing 3 good 2 alright 1 kind of rubbish 0 appaling
Still, this is really subjective and we all have different tastes which makes it difficult all around.
Not all reviewers and fans are capable of separating their likes from the dislikes in order to write a fair review ... generally, in our business, if you don't like it, you don't write a review for it, or as what some of us cynically say after 30 years of this ... it's a waste of time!
I think the difference should be the passion of the descriptions ... and I do NOT mean the technical bruhaha that 18/13th's that make the music sound blah and blah ... I mean ... be honest and let your emotion and vision show ... and that's all ANY ... and I mean .. ANY artist can ask for.
The only reviews I tend to pass by and let go are the ones that compare things and don't think it's prog because it is blah-prog or neo-pro ... and I would prefer to suggest that person is not listening to the music ... is only worrying about which box the music "belongs" to. And I know a lot of artists, that don't like to be boxed! They like their freedom of expression! Because that is what their work and vision is about! And that was what made it progressive in the first place! ... not the descriptions!
That said, there are things I absolutely think are excellent, and I say that because they create the best visual landscapes for me. Not because of someone else's decision if it is a masterpiece or some crap! We should punish those reviewers with getting locked up reading Jean Genet for 7 straight days!
I much prefer that we take the "numbers" out of the top bands listed in the favorites and also remove the duplicate entries for the same band (different album) ... we either consider the artist worth enough to list it or we don't. Make it simple!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 14:48
Logan wrote:
Vompatti wrote:
Masterpiece is:
the most outstanding work of a creative artist or craftsman
an outstanding achievement http://www.google.fi/url?q=http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dmasterpiece&sa=X&ei=O6F-TM2aFJS7jAetlpjzCg&ved=0CBEQpAMoAA&usg=AFQjCNHOTHXkugq8L25bLrFz7mPnwUGjZA -
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 15:36
Vompatti wrote:
Logan wrote:
Vompatti wrote:
Masterpiece is:
the most outstanding work of a creative artist or craftsman
an outstanding achievement http://www.google.fi/url?q=http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dmasterpiece&sa=X&ei=O6F-TM2aFJS7jAetlpjzCg&ved=0CBEQpAMoAA&usg=AFQjCNHOTHXkugq8L25bLrFz7mPnwUGjZA -
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 15:43
Logan wrote:
Sorry for snipping: "...Love is big word but exist. Maybe I dont ENJOY love and maybe love hurt me but Love is one part of my soul like any others..." (O666).
You mention love, but I think a "masterpiece", though in the ear, and even the loins, of the behearer, for me can be one of those albums I don't just love, but there's an almost erotic quality/ tingly sensation when listening to the music. One doesn't just love it, one makes love with it. Not literally, of course. It has eargasmic qualities.
Herbie Hancock's Crossings is one such album for me, but it leaves some others limp.
Sorry Logan. Internet speed in Iran is very very low! and I answer to Omri not you. My write posted before you but your post recieve before my!!!!! I dont want to talk about Love !! Omri talked about love and I answer to him!!!!!!!
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 15:47
I cant undrestand why you want to say There is no masterpiece. I believe many of musics or draws or books are masterpiece and its not about taste. Maybe I love them or not. Masterpiece is masterpiece!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 15:49
Okay, but your post made me want to dance. What is love, baby don't hurt me.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 17:33
EnderEd wrote:
3 does not really = "meh" on ProgArchives. Here's the ProgArchives official rating designations: Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection Good, but non-essential Collectors/fans only Poor. Only for completionists
I prefer leaving 5-star for "Masterpiece" rather than for an album that I really love and think is awesome. Is there an objective (vs subjective) criteria for defining Masterpiece? I think so, but many on ProgArchives would have a hard time with that. For example, I love almost anything and everything by Coheed & Cambria and Rush (except for their latest rehashes, Caravan/BU2B) -- But I would never give their most recent albums 5-stars, cause I know that I know they are not Masterpieces. On the other hand, I cannot stand Edvard Munch's painting The Scream, but would list it as a Masterpiece nonetheless.
Here is the confusing part (not to me but I think to a lot of people) 1 Star and 2 Stars really does not equal KRAPPY, Horrible albums. By the PA definitions, these are to mean they are good albums as looked at in the whole artists collection. I don't view 1Star and 2Star rated albums badly, if the commentary portion really trashes the album then I think it should not be rated...or there should be a ZERO option. Because if I really read into the PA star definitions, there really is no rating for "This is krapp, don't even bother, horrid, vomit..."
I would vote to remove the word "Masterpiece" for sure.
BTW......Caravan and Brought Up to Believe are great songs, only appreciated more now that I heard them live early last month. C&C's concept thru the first 4 albums is very, very good...excellent storyline, the books are great.....Should be a movie someday......Musically
-------------
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 18:27
Vompatti wrote:
Of course it's subjective. The albums themselves are subjective pieces of art, how could they possibly have an objective value?
Hahaha!!! I like that ... and you are quite right of course! Ok, so Stairway to Heaven stinks ... what crap. Who cares? .... somewhere along the line the equation gets messed up ... ... and all we can do is be honest and open about our feelings, but do not "hide" behind some jargon and concepts that do not exist! Like the one we use the most .... "progressive" which in the end is corrupted by "favorite"!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 19:10
If a site has guidelines (not all do), one should try to follow them to the best of their ability, so that readers have a reasonably consistent idea of what ratings mean. Most non-members perusing reviews are not going to look at the member profile to see a person's "personal definition" of the 5 stars. 5 star ratings should be very rare and entail much more than just "an album you like", as requested by the site pop-up explanation window.
Some are naturally going to thumb their nose and give 5s to everything they like. I think many readers eventually just ignore writers who they notice overuse the 5, I know I do, and I've had others tell me they do. If the rating is used excessively, it loses the impact/value it should have to a reader. When I notice a reviewer uses the 5 very rarely, then it has some meaning to me when they actually do pull the trigger.
Collabs especially should try to follow the site guidelines as their ratings are weighted.
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 19:42
Finnforest wrote:
If a site has guidelines (not all do), one should try to follow them to the best of their ability, so that readers have a reasonably consistent idea of what ratings mean. Most non-members perusing reviews are not going to look at the member profile to see a person's "personal definition" of the 5 stars. 5 star ratings should be very rare and entail much more than just "an album you like", as requested by the site pop-up explanation window.
Some are naturally going to thumb their nose and give 5s to everything they like. I think many readers eventually just ignore writers who they notice overuse the 5, I know I do, and I've had others tell me they do. If the rating is used excessively, it loses the impact/value it should have to a reader. When I notice a reviewer uses the 5 very rarely, then it has some meaning to me when they actually do pull the trigger.
Collabs especially should try to follow the site guidelines as their ratings are weighted.
The "overuse of 5 star ratings" thing isn't necessarily always applicable; some people choose only to rate albums they feel very strongly about
Posted By: Kazuhiro
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 19:42
Exactly
This should consider some respects.
Masterpiece and five stars' viewpoints. As for it, the part where the subjectivity mixes with objectivity might be included. And, the characteristic of PA joins this part.
It will be judged whether the person who listened to the album as a result is a masterpiece. And, general information and knowledge will mix there of course.
When the review is submitted, I often mix the characteristic of PA.
Review for sales promotion Album and information on musician
This is deliberately investigated. It recognizes it as work as Reviewer.
However, I also often submit a subjective review. However, the subjective opinion cannot be submitted if restrained to work and the sales promotion of the review. And, it is also impossible to unite all the reviews safely in three-star.
Knowledge and information might often be necessary for us. And, the experience concerning music forms everything. Perhaps, the listener who listened to the album should judge the final assessment.
The discussion concerning ranking the album is often done. However, we think should not the restraint to this discussion. The musician and the album are always offering good music with the technology that always exceeds our category. We should love music.
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: September 01 2010 at 19:51
Triceratopsoil wrote:
Finnforest wrote:
If a site has guidelines (not all do), one should try to follow them to the best of their ability, so that readers have a reasonably consistent idea of what ratings mean. Most non-members perusing reviews are not going to look at the member profile to see a person's "personal definition" of the 5 stars. 5 star ratings should be very rare and entail much more than just "an album you like", as requested by the site pop-up explanation window.
Some are naturally going to thumb their nose and give 5s to everything they like. I think many readers eventually just ignore writers who they notice overuse the 5, I know I do, and I've had others tell me they do. If the rating is used excessively, it loses the impact/value it should have to a reader. When I notice a reviewer uses the 5 very rarely, then it has some meaning to me when they actually do pull the trigger.
Collabs especially should try to follow the site guidelines as their ratings are weighted.
The "overuse of 5 star ratings" thing isn't necessarily always applicable; some people choose only to rate albums they feel very strongly about
Good point, but those of us who hang out here a lot can distinguish that type of reviewer from someone who is a regular reviewer of all kinds of material, stuff they both like and dislike. But yes, the kind of reviewer you mentioned does exist.
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 02 2010 at 05:42
O666 wrote:
I cant undrestand why you want to say There is no masterpiece. I believe many of musics or draws or books are masterpiece and its not about taste. Maybe I love them or not. Masterpiece is masterpiece!!!!!!!!
Sorry guys. I want to confess. I MADE MISTAKE. I shouldn't write like this and my hands up!!! I know many of you dont agree to "absolute" opinions and you right. One of my friends warn me and when I thought about his warning, I see he right.
I appreciate to "DANCE" with all of you!!!!! OK friends each of us have our own masterpieces but I want to know what is your criteria? thanks
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 02 2010 at 05:50
One question: If some of reviewers BIAS some albums with 5s rate .....................
Posted By: ergaster
Date Posted: September 02 2010 at 10:29
I love discussions like this! Lots of good points from all sides.
My opinion: the main reason this discussion comes up repeatedly is (IMHO) because there are multiple reviewers each interpreting the general guidelines in their own way to the best of their understanding and appreciation. This means that there is not, and can never be, any consistency in the reviews. So as long as reviews are invited from anyone who wants to contribute one*, threads of this type are inevitable (but I hasten to add, I am not complaining about this! Varying perspectives are fascinating.) Single-reviewer sites have the advantage of a consistently-applied vision and (should have anyway) clearly stated criteria and biases so we know from the outset what we are dealing with.
So basically on this site, in terms of reviews, it's a crap shoot. It's the main reason I have to take all reviews here with a grain of salt: the cumulative scores have less meaning than they do on a single-reviewer site. I read the reviews more with the "Does this guy agree or disagree with my opinion" and less "is this album worth listening to?" attitude.
I don't know what a masterpiece is in any objective sense. My own feeling is that a masterpiece is a retroactive label, and one that can really only legitimately be applied in a historical context. I think all the definitions so far are correct, but maybe the descriptor has been applied prematurely to too many recent albums. Give 'em a decade or so, and see.
A half-star increment in ratings would be a brilliant idea. It seems from the comments that a lot of reviewers are uncomfortable giving the full 5 stars because they know the album isn't really a masterpiece but it comes very close. However, the system may not be set up to deal with that, I don't know.
And yeah, it's pretty much subjective. One hopes one can generally distinguish between "favourite" and "important", but that can take some work and reflection. Of course, my personal taste is impeccable and beyond reproach!!
*I haven't contributed a review yet, but I'm working on one.
------------- We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty. Captain Malcolm Reynolds
Reality rules, Honor the truth Chemist99a R.I.P.
Posted By: kole
Date Posted: September 02 2010 at 10:38
Halves would make everything OK.
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: September 02 2010 at 12:42
kole wrote:
Halves would make everything OK.
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 02 2010 at 14:38
Imagin 10-20 reviewer decide to BIAS one modarate album and they do this. What happen? Rate of the album go high. Maybe they do this for money!! or any personal reasons. I mean they rate 5 star to 3 star ( in their opinion) album. If other reviewer ( for example 40) rate to this album between 3-4, final result is up to 4.0. Rate is important but this is not a fact (IMO). Every music fans can recognize good music base on their background,studies and experients. Taste may impress rate 1 star!! When one song or album have a good compose,arrangment,orchestration,sounding,.... and instruments players play with perfect technique and you listen perfect lyrics, I call this music "Perfect" or "Essential" and I dont refer to my Taste or Favorite style. I dont like Prog Metal but I undrestand DT and Angra and.... play perfect music and many time I enjoy to listen good Prog Metal music.
Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: September 02 2010 at 14:52
I look at it like this - I would only award 5 stars to an album that I consider to be of exceptional and consistent quality but me saying that alone doesn't make it a masterpiece, even if I think it is. However that album could be considered a masterpiece when that high opinion is universally echoed by many other people. At the end of the day though, no matter how highly an album is rated there's bound to be people who don't like it which will pull the average rating down.
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 02 2010 at 20:27
Logan wrote:
... And then there's the question of what is art (no I don't need a definition). ,,,
Don't get me started on this ... a few people on this board would troll the thread until it got killed ... and I can easily go back to Plato on this ... !
Had one of these discussions one time in a philosophy class ... and here is my take on it. Your view on the word "art" is very different if you are a creative person that does art, music or writes all day long ... and that is not something that a lot of people can enjoy or appreciate, specially fans that think they know what art is, and the artist is not doing it for them! ... the commercial side that we see here so often, people complaining about an artist not listening to them, or not doing what they want, and trashing an album or James LaBrie because they wanted something else ... see?
History of the arts would suggest that only things that last out TIME, get the award of "art" and credit as such ... the rest ... they have a lot of life to live.
There is one problem with that definition ... it never accepts "today's people and works" ... !!! ... because according to everything we know all that is right and correct is in the past, not today ... and this has been my biggest fight for modern music! That definition has to grow up and make room for today or it is not a definition.
Back to the ratings ... it's best that we do NOT consider ratings a major issue and that we allow each person their opinion ... the only problem being when a board decides that they are teh voice of the people and assume that everyone agrees ... and many of us don't! I don't care what Billboard says is number 1 ... I'm never gonna buy it! On principle! Because it distorts the truth and the tastes and makes it look like that is better than others and anything else ... and the majority of fams have a tendency to defend their favorites, not the art itself!
We get the same thing here!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 03 2010 at 05:46
Its true. Everyone define ART base on own opinion. Many times this definition go to other side far from main mean of ART. In my country philosophers and intellectuals still fight about Modernity !!! Many of them dont like modernity and they think West world forced that to people who have Oil or Gas. They call that " Cultural Attack"!!!! They focus to ART and they MAKE new definition for ART. This definition is very fanatic and they mix religion and nationalism to resist an modernity attack!!!
But many of Iranian people (like me) have another opinion that opposite to their. I told that to show you definition of ART sometimes attack to ART and this kind of definition made for another purpos.
Now I'm back to topic. One question : Who make 5 star or masterpiece? Reviewers or Artists?
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: September 03 2010 at 05:50
It is ALL subjective, no matter how hard we want to defend our beloved "art".
Tell my girlfriend that The Gates of Delirium is a masterpiece and you will probably get an iron thrown at your face (don't take me for a sexist, she does the ironing but I do a lot of housekeeping too!).
Surely she has her own tastes and definitions of "art", but get some more people like her to rate albums in PA and the average ratings will quickly change. If we have more or less consistent ratings for albums which many of us consider masterpieces it's only because we belong to a rather limited community with tastes sharing some "core" (or used to up to some time ago).
But the range and definitions of prog are changing, we see more and more newer interpretations of "prog", there's a growing share of prog-metal, post-rock, math-rock, post-metal, extreme tech-metal etc etc in PA. Wait for a few years and it's likely that the "masterpieces" of PA will have changed.
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: September 03 2010 at 06:15
^
I sure hope not. Good reviewers should learn and know the prog history and be aware of which albums were groundbreaking in their day and why. If we are simply to write off the past accomplishments of bands because they sound "dated" now, and if just roll along with the idea that the latest greatest is all that matters, then we're not much different from the mindless purveyors of pop culture/music in the mainstream media. I'm not bashing new music, there is a ton of great new stuff and you'll see me write about it. But as I said, good reviewers will learn about great albums from all periods, learn why they were historically revered, and at least consider those things when reviewing. Nothing makes me stop paying attention to a reviewer faster than when I detect a dislike for "old" albums because they don't sound like a Dream Theater/Porc Tree album.
I accept and love music from all periods. The thought of people writing off the history of prog (or music in general) is pretty sad. You might be right, but I hope not.
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: September 03 2010 at 07:34
I hope I'm wrong too! My favourite prog is still mostly from the 70's, and I honestly believe that it is objectively very good music, but my point was that what for us is a masterpiece is unlisteneable for other people.
Posted By: ergaster
Date Posted: September 03 2010 at 10:28
Gerinski wrote:
It is ALL subjective, no matter how hard we want to defend our beloved "art".
Tell my girlfriend that The Gates of Delirium is a masterpiece and you will probably get an iron thrown at your face (don't take me for a sexist, she does the ironing but I do a lot of housekeeping too!).
Surely she has her own tastes and definitions of "art", but get some more people like her to rate albums in PA and the average ratings will quickly change. If we have more or less consistent ratings for albums which many of us consider masterpieces it's only because we belong to a rather limited community with tastes sharing some "core" (or used to up to some time ago).
But the range and definitions of prog are changing, we see more and more newer interpretations of "prog", there's a growing share of prog-metal, post-rock, math-rock, post-metal, extreme tech-metal etc etc in PA. Wait for a few years and it's likely that the "masterpieces" of PA will have changed.
Well I don't know about that. If a masterpiece is something with a history, then what I would predict is an additional batch of actual masterpieces added to what is already agreed-upon. Even though "art" is subjective and taste is subjective, the consensus opinion on a release 30 or 40 years old does have some meaning. The range of "prog" may widen, but it will not change completely: certain work will always be seminal, no matter what else gets added.
------------- We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty. Captain Malcolm Reynolds
Reality rules, Honor the truth Chemist99a R.I.P.
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 03 2010 at 14:21
... Nothing makes me stop paying attention to a reviewer faster than when I detect a dislike for "old" albums because they don't sound like a Dream Theater/Porc Tree album.
Or Genesis or ELP or King Crimson!
And that's the problem with the "definitions" ... it forces people to think that one thing is great and the others aren't. And that is a very bad representation of any artist's work!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Posted By: steve j
Date Posted: September 03 2010 at 17:19
A masterpiece is.....................
People have different definitions of the word masterpiece, but its hierarchical in terms of other music. How many people on this forum have given an album 5 stars and realised down the line that they would like to change their opinion. A masterpiece is an album that stands the test of time. I may love an album today and grow tired tomorrow.
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: September 03 2010 at 18:41
This is the kind of thread that will bring everyone's opinion, which are quite diverse and many times opposing. With that in mind, this is my humble opinion:
I personally give 5 stars to the albums that I enjoy very much after quite a few listens, have great songs, very well written, arranged, orchestrated and performed, and they flow very nicely, providing an excellent listening experience.
As for a Masterpiece, I give that to a 5 star album that is also adventurous, challenging, unique, a milestone in progressive music history.
Posted By: ergaster
Date Posted: September 03 2010 at 19:45
Manuel wrote:
This is the kind of thread that will bring everyone's opinion, which are quite diverse and many times opposing. With that in mind, this is my humble opinion:
I personally give 5 stars to the albums that I enjoy very much after quite a few listens, have great songs, very well written, arranged, orchestrated and performed, and they flow very nicely, providing an excellent listening experience.
As for a Masterpiece, I give that to a 5 star album that is also adventurous, challenging, unique, a milestone in progressive music history.
Forgive my confusion, but I thought giving an album 5 stars here automatically confers "masterpiece" status. At least, that's how the ratings descriptions read to me.....
------------- We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty. Captain Malcolm Reynolds
Reality rules, Honor the truth Chemist99a R.I.P.
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: September 03 2010 at 23:55
ergaster wrote:
Manuel wrote:
This is the kind of thread that will bring everyone's opinion, which are quite diverse and many times opposing. With that in mind, this is my humble opinion:
I personally give 5 stars to the albums that I enjoy very much after quite a few listens, have great songs, very well written, arranged, orchestrated and performed, and they flow very nicely, providing an excellent listening experience.
As for a Masterpiece, I give that to a 5 star album that is also adventurous, challenging, unique, a milestone in progressive music history.
Forgive my confusion, but I thought giving an album 5 stars here automatically confers "masterpiece" status. At least, that's how the ratings descriptions read to me.....
Sorry, but as I mentioned, this is just my humble opinion, and the way I rate music in my own private collection. Maybe in P.A. 5 stars is a masterpiece, and for some other individuals too, and that's perfectly fine. I just spoke from a very personal perspective.
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 04 2010 at 05:51
Just like in the UK now, you cannot find for love or money anyone who would admit to voting for Margaret Thatcher. Similarly, for 5 star masterpiece albums is anyone game enough to admit that they have handed these out to records where they consider some of the tracks are erm...boring, lightweight. filler etc ?
We rate waaay too high on this site - 5 star garlands are for freakishly/perversely brilliant music alone (rare)
-------------
Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: September 04 2010 at 06:18
Manuel wrote:
This is the kind of thread that will bring everyone's opinion, which are quite diverse and many times opposing. With that in mind, this is my humble opinion:
I personally give 5 stars to the albums that I enjoy very much after quite a few listens, have great songs, very well written, arranged, orchestrated and performed, and they flow very nicely, providing an excellent listening experience.
As for a Masterpiece, I give that to a 5 star album that is also adventurous, challenging, unique, a milestone in progressive music history.
See, this is what I dislike. So now you can only give 5 stars to musically UNIQUE pieces, or pieces that are already considered classic. That means even if something sounds amazing, you might deny it 5 stars just because it isn't experimental enough, or isn't old enough or whatever.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: September 04 2010 at 08:28
^ Possibly, though not necessarily.
But what you might be ignoring is that 4 is no slouch! 4 means an "excellent" album, much better than just a good album. It's not a slight to give an album 4 stars. Honestly, some people act like a 3 (good) and a 4 (excellent) are somehow dissing the album. Not true. These two ratings should cover the VAST vast majority of albums that you like.
For some people, 5 just means something a little extra....universal appeal, "standing test of time", groundbreaking, uniquely, along with personally mindblowing.
I think a new album could be given 5 stars, but the bar is higher. I think you must believe it will become the things mentioned above, in time. As the site's definition makes clear, it should be something more than just "another album you enjoy".
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: September 04 2010 at 09:04
^I like that in MMA we can give half stars. There's a couple of very new albums I've given four and a half stars, because of the "test of time" factor, which they haven't yet been able to prove. In a couple of years if I still feel like it, I'll upgrade them to five. I think it's a good system.
------------- http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=42652" rel="nofollow - It's on PA!
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: September 04 2010 at 09:15
Yeah, Pekka, I think most people would love to have the 1/2 star thing here. I personally don't need it, but I'd support it now, just because most users seem to want it and I see very little downside to it. Other than the workload involved for those who would have to do it. So that's one of those decisions best left to Max and his techie collabs. I'm sure he knows there's lots of people here who want the 1/2 stars.
The best thing about it would be that it would decrease 5 star over-use, as well as bridging the difficult gap many people have from 3 to 4 stars. Less handwringing over rounding decisions
Posted By: ergaster
Date Posted: September 04 2010 at 11:42
nvmd double post
------------- We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty. Captain Malcolm Reynolds
Reality rules, Honor the truth Chemist99a R.I.P.
Posted By: ergaster
Date Posted: September 04 2010 at 11:42
Manuel wrote:
Sorry, but as I mentioned, this is just my humble opinion, and the way I rate music in my own private collection. Maybe in P.A. 5 stars is a masterpiece, and for some other individuals too, and that's perfectly fine. I just spoke from a very personal perspective.
Ah, okay, that makes sense.
------------- We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty. Captain Malcolm Reynolds
Reality rules, Honor the truth Chemist99a R.I.P.
Posted By: ergaster
Date Posted: September 04 2010 at 11:55
ExittheLemming wrote:
Just like in the UK now, you cannot find for love or money anyone who would admit to voting for Margaret Thatcher. Similarly, for 5 star masterpiece albums is anyone game enough to admit that they have handed these out to records where they consider some of the tracks are erm...boring, lightweight. filler etc ?
We rate waaay too high on this site - 5 star garlands are for freakishly/perversely brilliant music alone (rare)
I think the problem is that 5 stars equals both "essential to a collection" AND "masterpiece", which is probably an unwarranted conflation. I have lots of albums that I think are essential to my collection but I wouldn't rate as masterpieces.
Halliwell's Film Guide rates from 0 stars to five, and his system I think works very well. There are very very few five-star films, and a *lot* of one and two-star films, and a one-star film is not necessarily a bad film (you have to read the review to find out, go figure... ).
If we can't give half-stars, then it should be possible to give no stars. The four stars can be "essential", and five stars might have some meaning.
------------- We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty. Captain Malcolm Reynolds
Reality rules, Honor the truth Chemist99a R.I.P.
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 10:21
What is PA's top 10? What is Genesis's "Selling England ...." ? Why any sites (like PA) or any reviewers have Top 10 lists? What is their mean? Is "Selling England..." just 5 star album ? Who said "selling England....." is No1 and why? How many people vote to this album? What mean of No1? I think there are albums with higher rate in PA but "Selling England...." is No1. Why PA didn't make Top 10 lists for all genres and they put "Selling England..." on top of the list of Prog Rock's all genres? Maybe some of Prog fans didn't like Symphonic Prog and they like other genre. Note to "Selling England..." rate: 4.64 star-981 rating-75% 5 star AND (Essential : a masterpiece of Progressive Rock music)
Now note to this: If 50 fans rate under 3 star to this album, Album's rate drop to 4.2 or 4.3. Does PA change "Selling England..." position in this list? I dont think so. I think "Masterpiece" word never change with rates. PA call "Selling England..." a masterpiece of progressive rock music and PA cant change this. Can you accuse PA for this "Absolute" opinion? Can you say "No this is not a masterpiece" without any reason?
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: September 06 2010 at 15:44
O666 wrote:
Now note to this: If 50 fans rate under 3 star to this album, Album's rate drop to 4.2 or 4.3. Does PA change "Selling England..." position in this list? I dont think so. I think "Masterpiece" word never change with rates. PA call "Selling England..." a masterpiece of progressive rock music and PA cant change this. Can you accuse PA for this "Absolute" opinion? Can you say "No this is not a masterpiece" without any reason?
I think you are wrong. PA did not put SEBTP in its No.1 position. SEBTP is No.1 because this is the result of the voter's rating. If enough people rate it low, it will fall down from No.1 position.
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 08 2010 at 14:21
Gerinski wrote:
I think you are wrong. PA did not put SEBTP in its No.1 position. SEBTP is No.1 because this is the result of the voter's rating. If enough people rate it low, it will fall down from No.1 position.
Hmmm ... I have never seen the vote you are describing ... well, I have had a few eye surgeries and am partially blind ... but ...
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: September 08 2010 at 16:07
O666 wrote:
What is PA's top 10? What is Genesis's "Selling England ...." ? Why any sites (like PA) or any reviewers have Top 10 lists? What is their mean? Is "Selling England..." just 5 star album ? Who said "selling England....." is No1 and why? How many people vote to this album? What mean of No1? I think there are albums with higher rate in PA but "Selling England...." is No1. Why PA didn't make Top 10 lists for all genres and they put "Selling England..." on top of the list of Prog Rock's all genres? Maybe some of Prog fans didn't like Symphonic Prog and they like other genre. Note to "Selling England..." rate: 4.64 star-981 rating-75% 5 star AND (Essential : a masterpiece of Progressive Rock music)
Now note to this: If 50 fans rate under 3 star to this album, Album's rate drop to 4.2 or 4.3. Does PA change "Selling England..." position in this list? I dont think so. I think "Masterpiece" word never change with rates. PA call "Selling England..." a masterpiece of progressive rock music and PA cant change this. Can you accuse PA for this "Absolute" opinion? Can you say "No this is not a masterpiece" without any reason?
What are you saying? Any album with a 4.25 average and a sufficient number of ratings gets the masterpiece tag, and the rankings are determined by the votes, Close to the Edge used to be number one, I think WYWH might have even sneaked up to number one at one point. And it would take a lot more than 50 people writing bad reviews to knock it under 4.25. For one thing, none of those people are likely to be collaborators, and the collabs ratings are significantly weighted.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you
Posted By: Alfonsomdt
Date Posted: September 08 2010 at 19:33
i havenīt read all the post, but itīs a pretty interesting thing i been thinking for a while, what if we put a 6 star rating, but, that a user can use only 5 times? that īll be something haha greetings from Argentina
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: September 08 2010 at 21:42
Alfonsomdt wrote:
i havenīt read all the post, but itīs a pretty interesting thing i been thinking for a while, what if we put a 6 star rating, but, that a user can use only 5 times? that īll be something haha greetings from Argentina
That would be great! I've suggested similar, that the site only allows 5% of a users reviews to be 5-star. They could change them, move one out if they wanted to move a new one in, but the system would cap at 5% of a users total overall reviews. That would be awesome, forced compliance
Before someone freaks out, don't. I'm just kidding around, It would NEVER happen here. Still, it would be awesome.
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 10:55
been away for a few months. I come back, check the recent forums, and I see the same issues popping up ...
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice, Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 12:47
Gerinski wrote:
O666 wrote:
Now note to this: If 50 fans rate under 3 star to this album, Album's rate drop to 4.2 or 4.3. Does PA change "Selling England..." position in this list? I dont think so. I think "Masterpiece" word never change with rates. PA call "Selling England..." a masterpiece of progressive rock music and PA cant change this. Can you accuse PA for this "Absolute" opinion? Can you say "No this is not a masterpiece" without any reason?
I think you are wrong. PA did not put SEBTP in its No.1 position. SEBTP is No.1 because this is the result of the voter's rating. If enough people rate it low, it will fall down from No.1 position.
Are you sure?
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 13:34
^Yes, that's how it works. There's no big conspiracy behind its number one spot.
------------- http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=42652" rel="nofollow - It's on PA!
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 09 2010 at 13:58
Henry Plainview wrote:
[
What are you saying? Any album with a 4.25 average and a sufficient number of ratings gets the masterpiece tag, and the rankings are determined by the votes, Close to the Edge used to be number one, I think WYWH might have even sneaked up to number one at one point. And it would take a lot more than 50 people writing bad reviews to knock it under 4.25. For one thing, none of those people are likely to be collaborators, and the collabs ratings are significantly weighted.
How many ordinary listener equal to one "Collaborator"? Dont mistake. I agree with "collabs significant weight " and I try to say same thing. As I said before with 50 or 100 "ordinary" rates, PA doesnt change the list. You said " Any albums with a 4.25 average and SUFFICIENT(?) number of rating gets the masterpiece tag". What is the mean of "Sufficient"? Are you talk about "Ordinary" members or "collabs"? I think this is a paradox! You talk about "sufficient number" and after that you said about "significant weight". Maybe your mean is "Sufficient number of significant weight". Quantity and Quality together. Hmm. Interesting idea and reasonable definition of masterpiece.
Posted By: omri
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 12:28
O666 wrote:
Logan wrote:
Sorry for snipping: "...Love is big word but exist. Maybe I dont ENJOY love and maybe love hurt me but Love is one part of my soul like any others..." (O666).
You mention love, but I think a "masterpiece", though in the ear, and even the loins, of the behearer, for me can be one of those albums I don't just love, but there's an almost erotic quality/ tingly sensation when listening to the music. One doesn't just love it, one makes love with it. Not literally, of course. It has eargasmic qualities.
Herbie Hancock's Crossings is one such album for me, but it leaves some others limp.
Sorry Logan. Internet speed in Iran is very very low! and I answer to Omri not you. My write posted before you but your post recieve before my!!!!! I dont want to talk about Love !! Omri talked about love and I answer to him!!!!!!!
Oh, you were answering me. I haven't been around for few days so I appologise for the late react.
Well, let's talk about LOVE : When you are a child and you are hurt, you go to your mother to get comfort. You realy trust your mother to be on your side. Now, you are 18 years old and there's a beautiful girl you realy want just to hugg forever (maybe deep inside you let yourself fantasy of even more than hugging). Or, you are 30 years old looking at your baby sleeping in his little bed and you think you would do anything needed to keep him safe.
All 3 examples are called love but those are 3 different feelings. The first is a need, so is the second (but a quite different need) and the third is something that comes from responsibility and realising this baby is part of you (you don't feel the same for other's people baby right ?).
If we go back to music, some songs make me wanna cry, others make me wanna get out and take care of what's wrong. Both cases make me feel. You can say I love both (and that will be true in a way) but I still feel different feelings.
So I feel love is a term used to describe a situation when we feel strong emotions and not the emotion itself. Therefore it explains nothing.
This is why I do not like the term.
Back to the term - Masterpiece, As Logan said it is subjective and therefore you and I may not feel the same of an album like SEBTP for example (personally I don't find it Genesis' best output BTW). But the term Masterpiece means we all should appreciate it as top art. The fact is we may not agree (and if we do, we can always find a third guy that will not agree with us) so there isn't any real masterpiece according to it's deffinition.
Now, you can choose to say love and masterpiece and other big words but be aware that it's your subjective thoughts and feelings that do not describe any infinite truth. I choose to avoid these words and try to describe precisely my thoghts and feelings.
Well, I do appreciate Kafka.
BTW, are you Omid ?
------------- omri
Posted By: omri
Date Posted: September 15 2010 at 12:53
Silly me. I checked your profile. You are Omid . I remembered the Kafka connection.
------------- omri
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 16 2010 at 14:17
omri wrote:
Silly me. I checked your profile. You are Omid . I remembered the Kafka connection.
Hi omri. I am Omid and you right about Kafka connection!! Oh no. You are not silly bro. I like this discussion. You talked reasonable and gentle and I like to answer you. Can I ?
First about "Love". I undrestand what you say and I agree with you 80%. You talked about Love kinds and situations that we call "Love". I think musical Love is very different. You dont need it (like child) and you dont need it (like beautiful girl) and its far from responsible ( or these kinds). You "choose" music you like for any purposes. One like music for dance and any other like music for cry or ... Let me talk about myself. I "Love" Progressive music just for "music". I believe to "Art just for Art". I never forced myself to listen music. I never like music to show myself "Intelectual". I dont know why I "LOVE" this kind of music and I never have a reason for this. I trapped when I was 11 (30 years later from now). Nobudy said to me "This style is good" and I didnt had any information about Progressive music in IRAN. Believe me any music I listened and I like it before be in Progressive category!!! I start with "The Wall" and after it "ELP". When I liked Tangerine Dream, I didn't know TD is progressive. I never known Jethro Tull is Progressive too and ....
I had several POP music albums too but one thing forced me to this kind and I call that "LOVE"
Now I like to talk about Masterpiece. Logan and you said its subjective but I dont agree that. Many musical parameters is "Objective" like Technique, Arrangment,compose,... and we have reasonable criteria for these kind of parameters. Many musical specifications are have definition. Music have specialists and schools. Music have course in universities and teachers. You can recognize good music and bad music. You cant say " This is my taste and opinion" only about music. We can analys music. Taste and opinion is subjective and is one part of several objective parts of our criteria not all of this.For example "Genesis" and "Yes". You cant ignore objective values of these 2 bands. You cant ignore technique,composing,orchestration and .... of them. Can you?
I think we CAN recognize "masterpiece" and we done this before (for example J.S Bach). Thanks
Posted By: omri
Date Posted: September 19 2010 at 11:24
O666 wrote:
omri wrote:
Silly me. I checked your profile. You are Omid . I remembered the Kafka connection.
Hi omri. I am Omid and you right about Kafka connection!! Oh no. You are not silly bro. I like this discussion. You talked reasonable and gentle and I like to answer you. Can I ?
First about "Love". I undrestand what you say and I agree with you 80%. You talked about Love kinds and situations that we call "Love". I think musical Love is very different. You dont need it (like child) and you dont need it (like beautiful girl) and its far from responsible ( or these kinds). You "choose" music you like for any purposes. One like music for dance and any other like music for cry or ... Let me talk about myself. I "Love" Progressive music just for "music". I believe to "Art just for Art". I never forced myself to listen music. I never like music to show myself "Intelectual". I dont know why I "LOVE" this kind of music and I never have a reason for this. I trapped when I was 11 (30 years later from now). Nobudy said to me "This style is good" and I didnt had any information about Progressive music in IRAN. Believe me any music I listened and I like it before be in Progressive category!!! I start with "The Wall" and after it "ELP". When I liked Tangerine Dream, I didn't know TD is progressive. I never known Jethro Tull is Progressive too and ....
I had several POP music albums too but one thing forced me to this kind and I call that "LOVE"
Now I like to talk about Masterpiece. Logan and you said its subjective but I dont agree that. Many musical parameters is "Objective" like Technique, Arrangment,compose,... and we have reasonable criteria for these kind of parameters. Many musical specifications are have definition. Music have specialists and schools. Music have course in universities and teachers. You can recognize good music and bad music. You cant say " This is my taste and opinion" only about music. We can analys music. Taste and opinion is subjective and is one part of several objective parts of our criteria not all of this.For example "Genesis" and "Yes". You cant ignore objective values of these 2 bands. You cant ignore technique,composing,orchestration and .... of them. Can you?
I think we CAN recognize "masterpiece" and we done this before (for example J.S Bach). Thanks
Hi Omid,
Of corse you can answer me. This is what wer'e here for in the forum.
About Love of music I agree it is something we choose and therefore is not a need of any kind. The question is how do we choose or according to what ?
I am not a musician so I can not measure the value of orchestration, technique, composing etc. I doubt it that there's a fully objective criteria to all of these terms.
However, as you said we hear something and we like it. That's 100% subjective. And nothing's wrong with that. In the end it is what we feel while hearing the music.
I think what makes a prog listener different is the fact he is willing to put more listens and effort before he makes a final judgement so that's maybe why some of us (me included) claim that prog fans are more intelectual listeners. But again, in the end we make our judgement according to our feelings. John S. Bach which I also consider as one of the great composers ever, made many pieces which are now called masterpieces but 100 years ago he was almost forgotten. So I stick to my idea that we can't realy know if something is masterpiece or not (but for me this is not very important).
I do agree that with the example of love to music you proven the existence of pure love.
keep on the interesting threads
------------- omri
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 19 2010 at 12:56
Thank you for your honest. Yes as you said "TIME" is important parameter and measure to recognize "Masterpiece". I agree with you about judgement based on feelings. You know, When I was 11 I couldn't judge about objective side of music and I follow my feelings. Music and other Arts have 2 sides : objective and subjective and we cant discuss about subjective side any more. Many times one album or song has perfect compose,orchestrationand... but it cant impress to feelings. I meet this situation in many of jazz rock/fusion bands(please dont attack to me. I love and respect to this style). Powerful music playing with great technique but without feelings! and in other hand there are many bands without that techniqe and .... but they impress to feelings and thoughts. Thanks again.
Posted By: omri
Date Posted: September 21 2010 at 11:59
O666 wrote:
Thank you for your honest. Yes as you said "TIME" is important parameter and measure to recognize "Masterpiece". I agree with you about judgement based on feelings. You know, When I was 11 I couldn't judge about objective side of music and I follow my feelings. Music and other Arts have 2 sides : objective and subjective and we cant discuss about subjective side any more. Many times one album or song has perfect compose,orchestrationand... but it cant impress to feelings. I meet this situation in many of jazz rock/fusion bands(please dont attack to me. I love and respect to this style). Powerful music playing with great technique but without feelings! and in other hand there are many bands without that techniqe and .... but they impress to feelings and thoughts. Thanks again.
I definitely agree that some JR/F tracks or album are perfect technicaly but leaves me apathic and uninterested.
Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music"
Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection"
EnderEd wrote:
Good, but non-essential
Collectors/fans only
Poor. Only for completionists
. The incredible 20th century composer, Aaron Copland, coined a phrase "the gifted listener", meaning, like a trained wine connoisseur, one who is able to discern distinctions in the composition moreso than the average person. That ain't me, for sure. As I said before, I know much of my favorite music would not be considered "Masterpiece" status. (I learned from a college roommate that when someone is able to make a distinction between what they consider a "favorite" and what they consider a "best", pay attention-- they're at least trying to be discerning beyond personal preference...)
... and all we can do is be honest and open about our feelings, but do not "hide" behind some jargon and concepts that do not exist! Like the one we use the most .... "progressive" which in the end is corrupted by "favorite"!
(don't take me for a sexist, she does the ironing but I do a lot of housekeeping too!).
