Faux Prog Fans
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70098
Printed Date: November 26 2024 at 20:48
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Faux Prog Fans
Posted By: Textbook
Subject: Faux Prog Fans
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 21:53
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Let's not name any names but I notice a distinct division on the site between people who are actual fans of progressive music (those who seek new, original sounds without regard for what elements are used to create them) and "faux" progressive fans who seek the intellectual cache of prog but actually run a mile from anything unfamiliar. Yes and Genesis are good bands and I like both of them but it must be said that for whatever reason a change/time resistant cult seems to have formed chiefly around them, the members of which only enjoy new prog if it sounds like Yes or Genesis. This to me is absolutely the opposite of prog as it is stagnant.
I accuse those who would not listen to or try music that is receiving acclaim because they "don't like that sort of thing" to be a lilly-livered rascal. I really like Johnny Cash but never would've tried him if I'd stuck to my "I don't like country music" thing. A true prog fan will try ANYTHING. ANYTHING AT ALL. They don't have to like it, but they'll get it and hear it all the way through before deciding.
True?
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Replies:
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 21:57
| word. |
Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:06
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I agree. But some people turn this on its head and start disliking any band that's not entirely avant-garde/exerpimental. This is just as irritating.
-------------  |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:15
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I dislike the idea that musical opinions are motivated by ideology more than taste. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:16
| What I'm saying is pro-taste. I'm not saying like things because they're different, that's a misinterpretation. I'm simply saying try anything, especially if you consider yourself interested in the progressive scene. You'll note I gave an establishment example (Johnny Cash) to illustrate how wrong you can be about preconceptions. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:16
It's very true on sites such as this, though Case in point: Walter |
Henry Plainview wrote:Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:17
| Say "NO!" to new music and say "YES!" to pre-89 heroes. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:17
| Speak of the devil. |
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:18
I may not agree with your views, Walter, but it sure is fun to see how much some people care about your taste more than theirs.  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:19
 |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:25
And I'm saying people generally do try things. I'll agree that the average person is resistant to novelty and change, especially as they age, and I find that frustrating, but that's because of their taste. People aren't listening to Spock's Beard and Mostly Autumn because they've never heard The Mars Volta. You thought you didn't like country until you heard Johnny Cash, but you didn't hate country up until that point because of a philosophical opposition to the idea of country, and if you're the kind of person who would like Johnny Cash you would have heard him eventually anyway.
Walter doesn't count, he's not a real person. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Tarquin Underspoon
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:27
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Sure. I mean, I look at my most recent purchases, notice that they're a Strapping Young Lad record and a Glenn Miller record, and smile smugly to myself. ------------- "WAAAAAAOOOOOUGH! WAAAAAAAUUUUGGHHHH!! WAAAAAOOOO!!!" -The Great Gig in the Sky |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:27
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walter is silly but... thats what he likes... and why the hell shouldnt he? ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:29
True. I'm the biggest classic Yes and Genesis fanatic--but I don't really care for more current groups that try too hard to copy them. Young 18 year olds that I know who like classic Yes and Genesis are looking to keep prog alive and give it a future and it may not sound like what we are used to hearing.
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:31
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I hope you're not saying that someone has to like the Mars Volta or the Flower Kings in order to be considered "open minded." ------------- 
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:46
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They don't have to like both but they have to try both. |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:50
------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:51
www.youtube.com www.grooveshark.com |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:06
| I said try, not buy. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:09
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Then I agree with you that trying new things is good. If you don't happen to like modern music (as I generally don't with a very few exceptions) I don't think that means your tastes are not progressive or that you have a closed mind, so as long as you are not saying that, then I agree with your original post.
-------------
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Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:16
I lol'd. |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:18
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And honestly, I'll try anything prog. Even if they're a style I don't like, I'll still try them just in case they end up being my breakthrough and bringing me in to that entire subgenre.
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:22
| Yeah, Kaipa's a recent example for me. Seemed very sort of fey and happy clappy, didn't expect to like it but it seemed they were significant so I gave them a go and ended up enjoying it. |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:28
(time is money. right now 1hr of my time is equal to $8, for many of you your time is more valuble i can see why you might not want to waste so much time on a song or album)
that aside, many people have better things to do than listen to a ton of songs on grooveshark... prolly not if they post here often. but still.
i can understand listening to Fragile and knowing you will be satisfied rather than trying somthing new. some people honestly enjoy the old and feel no need to try new music. they are satisfied. dosent make them any less of a prog fan ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:37
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Maybe it's a memory thing?
No I'm not joking. I love Pink Floyd but never listen to them at all and haven't for about 10 years because their records are still, yes still, pretty much playable note for note in my head. It's really redundant to do so. And this is typical of me and albums I like. So I keep moving on to new stuff. People without this retention may be more likely to stagnate.
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Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:42
More people should have this kind of attitude! ------------- |
Posted By: JesusisLord
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 01:00
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I don't care what others like, dislike or are disinterested in...Why do you? If someone wants to listen strictly to one style of music, why does not concern you? ------------- And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:11 |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 01:16
| It doesn't matter. Appreciation of music in itself is a good thing and should not be questioned in such a high minded and patronising way. |
Posted By: 40footwolf
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 02:25
| I totally agree with the OP-I think that progressive music doesn't just involve jazz and classical influences with pleasant harmonies, it has to encompass a variety of sounds and vibes, some of which may make the listener uncomfortable. That stated, I think that progressive music SHOULD take the listener out of their comfort zone absolutely, whether it be in a pleasant or unpleasant way. John Zorn's Naked City is just as needed as Yes, in my book. |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 02:32
|
News flash: Not everyone has the same musical taste or criteria for music they like. Shocking, I know. As others have mentioned, I find it difficult to relate to anyone who has non-musical criteria for choosing what music to listen to. I've seen people on this forum dismiss bands because of their country of origin, for example. Some people like their food spicy, some stick to comfort food - whatever floats yer boat, I say. ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 02:34
| Woooo, the internet is serious business. |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 02:53
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Camel | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=97316 - review http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=9 - AFTER CRYING http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=32 - Overground Music | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=96322 - review http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=233 - MARILLION http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=1754 - Script For A Jester's Tear | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=96318 - review http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=50 - CAMEL http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=329 - The Snow Goose | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=96317 - review ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 02:56
|
maybe it's like heroin, you're always chasing that first high that never happens again |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 02:59
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 03:14
A personal opinion.
The first sentence of the first post here is where it all goes pear shaped. It falls into the old trap of using the term "progressive" to demand that prog must constantly change and move forward. That is a fundamental misconception.
Like it or not, the music to which this site is dedicated, "Progressive music", "Progressive rock", call it what you will (let's call it "Prog"), came about in the late 1960's and early 1970's. It is a style defined by bands such as Yes, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, etc. It bears the name Progressive because at that time it was. We would not demand that classical music or jazz music changes over the years, so why should prog be any different just because it has a name which means "move forward".
I can well understand why those who were not there at the time wonder what all the fuss is about with albums such as "Close to the edge", "Thick as a brick" etc. If you were not there to appreciate their relevance in the context of the period, but judge them instead against the sounds of today, then you may not like them so much as those who were there. I think though in today's environment of mass music production, it is more likely that people simply do not get to know an album to nearly the same extent as we did 40 years ago, and as such only hear music superficially. This is borne our in the reviews of some of our more prolific reviewers, who clearly listen to an album just once in order to review it. I am drifting here though, back to the subject in hand.
I think the success and popularity of sites such as this, together with the resurgence of prog, has led to a lot of music being defined as prog which isn't. Styles such as post rock, extreme metal, math rock, crossover prog, and many more may be pushing things forward (progressing), but they are simply not "prog". Likewise, a lot of pure jazz has been added to the site now, it too is not prog though. We are guitly here of diluting the definition of prog in the cause of popularity and personal taste.
I'm not complaining about any of this, I think the site is all the better for the diversity of styles it contains (even if I do think there is now too much metal related music on it). Let's not kid ourselves though, most of the new music people want to see added to this site has no relation to the roots of prog, and hence the real prog of the late 60's early 70's, As such, it is not Progressive (with a capital P) rock.
Finally, if bands such as Yes, Genesis, ELP, Tull et al mean nothing to you, that's fine. Please though respect those for whom these will always be the founding greats of prog. These are most definitely NOT Faux Prog fans.
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Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 03:19
last.fm hypem.com Spotify myspace.com (and so on and so forth). Personally, I respect everyone's right to be close-minded, snobbish and biased when it comes to music (that's all the concept of 'taste' boils down to in the end) but anyone who has access to the internet also has access to a universe of freely, legally available music at their fingertips. Money is not an excuse. |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 03:22
I would. Jazz is built on change. Even more than prog, it needs to develop or else stagnate. |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 03:47
Many thanks, Bob - you said exactly what I was thinking, saved me time by typing it yourself & articulated it far better than I could have done 
Or as some others would say... 'word' 
------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 04:04
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EL, I think you misread my post. It was not an attack on those old bands. In fact Jethro Tull are one of my favourites bands of all time, I used to be a Pink Floyd MANIAC and I like Yes, King Crimson, Rush, Genesis etc. I was not saying "get rid of these silly old fuddy duds" or anything remotely similar. I do appreciate that music and understand why it was important to its context.
The funny thing is, I don't need to hear albums I've already heard. Call me crazy but I don't go to the same place every time I take a vacation. Now in other musical forms there are certain rules and forms but to me, the point about prog is that there aren't. Embracing "prog should basically be Yes-karaoke" kills prog as the "genre that has no rules" and makes it "the genre that sounds like Yes" with rules about harmonies and keyboard arrangements etc.
I totally disagree when you say prog does not need to change to be vital. Please point out an original and important piece of music that sounded exactly like something that already existed.
...
Exactly, it can't be done. To embrace a lack of change is to consign prog to the dustbin as far as relevance and innovation goes. If you don't want innovation, I suspect your ties to prog are nostalgic rather than musical.
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 04:27
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I am willing to try anything, but I have my own way with it. I explore a lot on myself and always discover new things, and I am willing to pick up suggestions. But I don't like it when people try to sledgehammer me into listening to something; my bristles get up then (figure of speech, of course , since I don't have any). I may truly be missing out on something then, but I don't like proselytizing. And some things I have tried are definitely not for me, like most prog metal, for example, with very few exceptions (the more experimental bands). -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: lensag
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 04:37
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Music isn´t static but rotulations are. They stick through even if they have absolutely nothing to do with reality. This happens with musical genres, artists and bands (for example anathema will always be labeled a (doom) metal band even though their actual sound isn´t doom at all). 1984 the year i was born is not exactly the peak of progressive music and probably this is the reality for a lot of people who come to this forums - yet there´s something that brings them here - and i think it is their love for music and the necessity to talk and discover new things - whether it is prog or not. It was my father who introducced me to prog music - he had records of King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Emerson Lake Palmer, JeThro tull; Manfred Mann; genesis among many others - but even though i knew them it took me 10/15 years to discover them for myself. Why, you might think, because every generation had their own music (alternative or mainstream) and i grew up listening to heavy metal and other styles of metal and grunge and alternative rock, with my oldest brother, not prog.
What i love about music is the fact that is a journey onwards and backwards and sideways (my english sucks). And some people have preference for one of these 3 possible paths. Some want to discover everything that has to do for example with prog (or any other genre or musical subgenre) and they want to know and discover all the bands and all the songs and the history and that´s cool. Other just want to know about the new things coming all the new bands out there and what sound they´re making, and keep trying different styles, with very open mind. Others (where i think i include myself) are not totally satisfied with the actual state of music (this means that the input of good new music is very slow) so part of our journey is backwards, in the search for good music that is already there. What guide us is different though - prog is a label that helps me int his process but ultimately liking it or not is what makes me hear music. And even this changes with time. ------------- "when routine bites hard and ambitions are low, and resentment rides high but emotions won´t grow And we´re changing our ways, taking different roads.. Then love, love will tear us apart again.." |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 04:42
| Rotulations? |
Posted By: lensag
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 04:51
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bad english sorry--- labeling is the correct word i think (direct translation sorry) ------------- "when routine bites hard and ambitions are low, and resentment rides high but emotions won´t grow And we´re changing our ways, taking different roads.. Then love, love will tear us apart again.." |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 05:14
| It's always annoying to see how people can change the subject of a topic because they feel they're 'under attack'. I wish some posters would act like adults. Textbook just wanted to discuss his opinion about what the progressive spirit is. And he´s damn righ in my opinion. A lot of people are way to afraid to explore new music. |
Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 05:47
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Agreed. You should give things a shot. I never say I "hate x genre" because that's just silly. Though, some of the very rules by which, for example, punk exist make it so I hate most of it. I like to think it's not just because I'm elitist but because it seems boring and pointless to me (what is the point of music if nothing new is tried? If it's just the same boring melodies over the same boring chord sequences with the same boring drum beats?) but really, I don't know. Of course, it all boils down to the one thing I really don't like about music. There's too freaking much. There's too much music in existence that, even if I spent all the money I owned on music, and was constantly listening to music for my entire like, I would never listen to even a tiny proportion of the amount of music that exists. But the progressive spirit is to give it a damn good try, in my opinion. New music should be embraced and new ideas, structres, instrumentation and textures should be welcomed - whilst still exploring the many many many past relases and experimentation therein. People should explore new genres - for example, I just listened to some "Godspeed You! Black Emperor" and Jesus I love it. I didn't think music like that existed but there it is. It proves that truly new music is still possible, even with a finite amount of notes, tempos, chords, textures and rhythms, new music can still be created. And it's kickass. I think there is plenty of good new music and plenty of good old music. But good music very rarely gets in the charts nowadays - it all just seems cookie-cutter to me - and although this seems like a stereotyped opinion, I have yet to be convinced otherwise. It just seems that popular music and good, interesting music never meet. /Superrant ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 05:58
He also wanted to accuse some "unnamed" members of not being true Prog fans.That's pretty irritating. Name them. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 06:04
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Nathan makes a good point there. I, like quite a few people here I presume, can get quite smug about my knowledge of music from about the 1930s onward and how I know pretty much everything ever etc etc.
And yet I just today found out about The Wipers who were apparently one of THE key American punk bands. And despite having listened to loads of punk and so on, it's not like I'd avoided it, I've even read books about it, I'd never even heard them mentioned. And it's not as if they're obscure, they're quite respected with a big legacy.
It just goes to show that no matter how much time you invest in music, there's ALWAYS gonna be stuff you don't get around to.
But heck, I'll give it a shot ;)
And I'll quite happily admit that most of the charts is rubbish, I was never making a case for modern pop, just marvelling at the presence of people who won't go outside their musical comfort zone on a progressive site.
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Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 06:28
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I thought this site was intended to celebrate all types of progressive rock. That's why I use the site.
A few years back I posted at a non-music site about my love of prog rock, and the difficulty in finding new bands that I could enjoy in the genre. A helpful member pointed me to this site. The first thing I did was listen to every song from bands that I did not know. I can't tell you how many albums I've purchased because I found them here, both new and old.
I don't think people who wnat to stay in thier comfort zone are any less prog fans than those who seek out new sounds (and new civilizations, to boldy go... oops). That goes for those stuck in the seventies, those who just like neo-prog, RIO, avant-jazz, whatever. Some people just like what they like. There's a lot to be said for the comfort zone. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 07:11
When I discovered "classic prog" (meaning symph, fusion, space, folk) about four years ago I was so enthusiastic about it that I was convinced I'll never listen to anything else for the rest of my life, and that all other forms of pop&rock music were simply inferior. The power of conviction over taste was so strong that anything else than classic prog really sounded awful to me. I remember I once listened to the radio show a friend was doing about alternative rock (the genre I thought was the plague of modern society, and avoided at all costs). As much as I wanted to tell my friend he did a nice show, after the first hour my head ached so bad (really) that I had to stop listening. Fortunately I had to take a quite long break from prog at some point and after that I was never the same. I am now ashamed of myself from that period, and I'm glad I'm not a "prog-fan" any more, just a person interested in good music and musical creativity from any genre. Anyway, I was the perfect example of what Textbook is saying and what you're contradicting. Your convictions can snob out your tastes! |
Posted By: lensag
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 08:34
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couldn´t agree more! that is the whole idea of listening to music! ------------- "when routine bites hard and ambitions are low, and resentment rides high but emotions won´t grow And we´re changing our ways, taking different roads.. Then love, love will tear us apart again.." |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 10:18
No one demands that other genres of music constantly change, why should prog? take post rock as an example. That has it's own name and definition. Why has it been subsumed into "prog" when it bears no relation to it. Does every new style and sound have to been deemed to be prog simply because it is different?
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Posted By: rod65
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 10:21
I am hesitant to attach the adjective "faux" to any group of people who don't do things the way I think they should be done. Such language is divisive and exclusionary, and more importantly creates a false dichotomy where no such dichotomy necessarily exists. As various posters have pointed out, people have their own reasons for listening to music, and those reasons are really no one else's business. Moreover, people may not necessesarily listen to music, even the same music, for the same reasons every time. If I may be blunt, what I have generally noticed over much of a life spent in observing and thinking about culture and the discussions that go on around it, the primary function of divisions such as this one is to make the people who make them feel better about themselves by giving them an identifiable group to whom they are able to feel superior.
As Easy Livin' points out above, "if bands such as Yes, Genesis, ELP, Tull et al mean nothing to you, that's fine. Please though respect those for whom these will always be the founding greats of prog. These are most definitely NOT Faux Prog fans."
What people listen to, and why they happen to listen to it on any given occasion, are essentially private matters, not subject to outside judgements.
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 10:24
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I think I have seen a discussion like this in the past. Was about Sex Pistols and Rock Dynosaurs... ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 10:31
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This all hinges on defining "prog," which is dumb. I like Yes, King Crimson, Pendragon, Marillion, Pink Floyd, Caravan, Rush, and Porcupine Tree. But I heard 3 minutes of a Kayo Dot song, thought it was crap, and never listened to the album again. OH CRAP AND HERE I WAS THINKING I WAS A "PROG FAN" !!!! *sad face* Besides, prog is usually intellectual music rather than overly fun music, which is why I can only take so much of it. And it's not like being a "prog fan" is a badge of honor, it's just a (horribly defined, obviously) genre of music. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: jean-marie
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 11:32
| i do think so ,i prefer to look forward because i'm not real satisfied with new stuff .but i's normal cause i'm 55 |
Posted By: LiquidEternity
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 11:39
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A True Prog Fan should look down on all other music fans, including other prog fans, because a True Prog Fan knows the exact best combination of bands to spend time with. Everyone else is various shades of incorrect.
------------- 
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Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 12:25
------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 13:17
Yeah and I've found that sometimes things won't click with you at first listen, but if you don't force yourself, days, weeks, months, years later you may encounter again and fall nuts for it. Sorry I was so late to this party. I believe there are two camps, those who like prog music, those that don't, and those who fall somewhere in between, no no, wait wait, three three camps...  And remember the golden rule: If you don't like what I like you obviously don't have good tastes in music. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: friso
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 13:33
Yeah, and you should join the CIA or the KGB. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 13:35
What the f**k?  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: LionRocker
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 13:42
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I'm one of the few idiots who has given the "pop sell out" years of many prog outfits a chance and quite frankly, some of their efforts make for some minor masterpieces. Take the mighty "Discipline" by King Crimson, for instance, which is highly original and experimental, yet it's still accessible and "pap" so that means these so called "faux prog" fans should hate it like the holocaust. My point is, I don't care about the influences or images projected by "selling out" prog bands in their later years. As long as the band sounds inspired, twists the particular genre around and makes something new out of it, or the melodies are simply superb, (A case with many Caravan and Camel "pop" albums) I will give the music a high grade and a positive review on PA. That is basically the "code" I go by when it come to rating music. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 14:00
This . Huge fan of Discipline here - in my view, one of KC's undisputed masterpieces. Yes' 90125 also ranks pretty highly in my personal scale. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 15:59
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I tend to agree with Textbook, in the UK here its clear that the local fandom is extremely conservative in its tastes. If it sounds like Marillion, IQ or Pendragon then it will do well, if it doesnt then its stuffed. I think the related Prog metal bands To-Mera and Haken make for a good case in point. Hakens debut album aquarius is currently doing very well, but its quite clearly a pretty standard Prog metal affair, dare I say Dream Theater clone, that brings absolutely nothing new to the table whereas To-Mera's two albums and EP offer a pretty unique mix of traditional prog metal and tech metal (ala Cynic) that no other band I've come across offers, yet they are largelly ignored.
I can envision a point in the future (and not distant) where prog vertually dies in this country because there are no new fans and the old guard of musicians have retired from repeating themselves ad nausium. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 16:04
The original prog bands of the late 60's and eary 70's were so diverse and, for the most part, unrelated that its hard to consider them as a genre anyway unless you consider it as a mindset, and its a mind set which in current times can demad to follow the sounds of the early bands or the desire to experiment, regardless of genre within which they are experimenting. Prog could never be defined by sound, or a set of rules alone becuase there was always two or more well known groupes that would not adhere to those rules. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 16:06
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Nah, it won't die, just go even further underground. It will never be extinct. But the perception that prog fans are not really progressive in terms of seeking out new and groundbreaking music, but people who are lost in the 70s isn't going to help.
No I'm NOT saying don't listen to music from the 70s, I frequently do. I'm saying don't create a dreamland where being from the 70s is some sort of badge of distinction.
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 16:14
I wouldnt be so sure of that, the gigs here all seem to be attendad by the same group of people (myself included) and its exceptionally hard to find a UK based band thats doing something different and gets support for it whilst being recognised as prog. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Green Shield Stamp
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 16:15
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I thought that prog was a genre of music (or at least and umbrella term for a series of closely related genre). Every genre has its own recognisable conventions and there is usually infinite scope to create and innovate within that genre. If you love a particular genre (such as Prog), it doesn't mean that you are drowning in a pool of cultural stagnation.
I don't understand why some people get so worked up about what other people enjoy. Just go your own way, but don't judge others who choose to go a different way. ------------- Haiku Writing a poem With seventeen syllables Is very diffic.... |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 16:19
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It's true that not all genres evolve- look at reggae which despite almost never changing still does quite well- but I think prog is different. It was originally about doing something new and continuing to do something new. It wasn't about doing something new once and then having everybody else imitate that (now no-longer) new thing for 30 years. |
Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 16:20
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Looking at your initial post, agree totally but it really is their musical opinion. Technically they wouldn't be prog fans but they'd be Yes or Genesis fans. ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 16:26
| That's what I was trying to say. But the problem is the two get conflated and prog becomes the "Yes/Genesis etc" genre which I think weakens the genre's mission statement which was to make music that fused anything you liked with anything else regardless of whether it sounded like the pioneering bands of the style. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 16:30
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Hi,
I think people are entitled to their choices and thinking.
The only issue with that is ... if you are a "fan", in general, you are not really into it because of the music or the progressiveness of it at all ... but because you like it, and you might, or might not, have an idea as to why ... you just like it.
My biggest issue with the "big ones" is that ... when compared in artistic terms ... many times they are NOT that original or even that good! I don't think that folks would have noticed Genesis in those days if it weren't for the colorful pictures of the costumes that Peter Gabriel was wearing on stage to try and get some attention to the music! So, a little push and advertising makes it! And Melody Maker fell for it! Sadly, there were bands and others that did this before, but they will never get any credit ... for their work.
All in all, if I have a stink about it all, it is that ... it has become "might makes right" ... meaning that who sells the most or who gets written about the most ... must be good ... or ... better yet ... is prog ... or progressive. And that is a sad statement all around ... it's like saying the world does not exist because London has progressive and no one else in the world did it ... which of course is horribly ethnocentric and inapropriate,
All in all, for the sake of all that is good in this board, we must take the good with the bad ... and help each other more, so we can help this music survive longer and make a name for itself. I'm a strong believer that for the most part these people wanted to do more with the music than just pop music ... but that appears to be a statement that some are afraid to talk about. No one sits down and writes "progressive music" ... you write what you feel and what you are comfortable with ... and 100 years later it might be called something or other ... but a group today saying they are "prog" is right down pretentious and so faceless and indistinctive that ... I, for one, is not going to bother even looking at the cover of the album! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: LionRocker
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 16:54
Hah. Frank Zappa's vast amount of stage plays and silly theatrics he did with The Mothers comes to my mind. ------------- http://img8.imageshack.us/i/caravandogbedited1.png/"> 
A broken-winged dove, is all he has to show for love. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 17:30
You don't see Frank's name listed along side of the "prog" giants in London ... and Frank was there a lot longer and way before, and in fact many of those bands own more to Frank than any of us is willing to accept and appreciate.
We might as well state that prog started with Frank ... since even the Beatles commented on his work. John in particular! When you listen to the whole ending of Abbey Road ... one of these days ... just think of Frank Zappa ... and you can see the guitar wanting to just fly away and it does in the end. ... as he used to say ... just hut up and play yer gueetar! ... and that is what "prog" is all about! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 17:59
| I've heard people say that Zappa, not The Beatles, actually got the ball rolling. I'm pretty sure McCartney went on record saying they heard Freak Out in '66 and consciously decided to try and implement elements of it in their own music. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 18:21
Which I think they did ... and my thought still is that George Martin said ... ok ... we can do this, but let's tie it up so it sounds better, more cohesive and interesting ... and the Beatles bought it.
Zappa's made more sense in a conceptual way, not so much musically or lyrically, since it was quite anarchistic. And this is the part that is very difficult for us to work with and describe, and one of the reasons why sometimes Frank is not listed in the top 3 of the "progressive" albums ... because he's too weird and off on his own thing ... that we can not understand, or relate to or ... appreciate!
Get ready for 200 Motels ... will be available at any time on DVD! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 18:28
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Frank-Zappa--200-Motels-DVD/dp/B00347ZXY4/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1281396479&sr=1-1 - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Frank-Zappa--200-Motels-DVD/dp/B00347ZXY4/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1281396479&sr=1-1 ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: caretaker
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 19:45
| Thanks to Textbook for starting a good discussion. That's one of the many reasons I love this site. And for the record I also love Johnny Cash. And Frank Sinatra. And Dream Theatre and Yes and...... |
Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 20:08
Disagree. Prog is not an ordinary genre. It's more of a description - meaning this music is PROGRESSIVE. Either in the sense that the structure is progressive or that the means, idealogies, technologies ot melodies, textures or rhythmns going into it are prog. The WHOLE definition of PROG defines that is SHOULD change. It's PROGRESSIVE. It changes! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 20:13
I disagree with Easy Living that it has to SOUND like the prog of the 70s to be called 70s. No, but it does need to be based in that compositional approach. It would not sound like Yes, for instance, if there was no Hammond organ. On the other hand, modern bands that get called Yes-like do try to evoke the sound of Yes, often without the compositional approach. A lot of highly acclaimed modern prog is abrupt pastiche which seems to be put in there to shock the listener rather than serve a strong purpose in terms of development of the composition. There are people who like it and it's their choice, but I personally find it hard to get excited about that and would rather look elsewhere for modern treats. From the 90s onwards, I like Jeff Buckley, Radiohead, Tori Amos, Radiohead, Jamiroquai most in that order. None of these would be considered prog proper, not even Radiohead which is actually on this site. So, I disagree heavily with a suggestion that not liking several modern prog acts means the listener is not adventurous. There is some good modern, as in 90s onwards, prog by the way, I personally like Kevin Gilbert and ACT a lot. Please spare me later DT...noooo! 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 09 2010 at 20:20
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I think I'm beginning to prefer later Dream Theater. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 01:20
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All music evolves and to some extent pays homage to that which came before. This idea of 'pure progressive music' has always been dodgy in my eyes. Music has to be music first and foremost and taking something recognisable and making it better is just as valid as creating something that is completely different sounding.
But the original discussion was about 'fake' or 'imitation' prog fans not about the bands. Its obvious that some consider themselves to be some higher form of prog citizen or perhaps even some kind of warrior for being more open to different music. Well bully for them. If they want to listen to Johhny Cash ,Rap and Disco music then fine.
As for 'progressive music' perhaps its not on this site at all. Can I suggest that all those warriors of progressiveness go elsewhere? ...pretty please!
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 02:28
I can definitely understand this position (which I'd call the "purist" position), but I'm happy that the site was built on the completely opposite principles Let's not forget that while the site does use the term "prog" and "prog rock" for purposes of convenience (title, slogans, etc), it was always a resource intended to cover all forms of progressive rock regardless of their connection with classic prog. |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 03:45
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I love discovering new music and I try to do so, however I can only do so in a (partly self-imposed) limited extent. I do not have as much time as when I was 20 to dedicate to listening to music. I have now constraints of all sorts and besides, listening to music is only one of my several interests. My CD collection is not impressive but it’s decent, around 500. Most of these CDs I have them because I love the music, not because I’m a stamp collector. I like re-listening to them now and then. Even considering that I could listen to 1 CD a day as average (which unfortunately is not always the case), simply re-listening to my current collection means that I can only re-listen each CD a bit more than once every 2 years as average. Even if I would buy myself 10 new CDs every month, for a good part this would mean either: a) listen to it 3 or 4 times and put it in the shelf not to be heard again for who knows how long. b) stop re-listening to the vast majority of my existing CD collection. There’s still quite a lot of "old" music which I do not know at all, or which I vaguely know and like but I do not own and do not know as well as I would like to. “Discovering new music” for me means as much discovering new modern bands of today, as old bands from the past, as new albums from bands I already know. In the last years I’m glad to have discovered new bands, from The Mars Volta to Karmakanic to Godspeed You! Black Emperor to name some. However jumping into the unknown is not always successful (GY!BE while I do not dislike them are far from being my favourite music). Given all these limitations, when I want to “discover some new music” I split my risks and for some part I go for something I’m already quite sure that I’m gonna like, being either some band from the past which I do not know yet but from which I have pretty certain positive references, or some album which I do not have yet from a band I already know, and know that I like. Only for another part of my new acquisitions I take the risk of jumping into the unknown. Needless to say, PA is a great source of information not to take a completely blind jump, and rather have an educated guess of which kind of pool you are jumping into. I have a music collection because I like listening to it. It’s not about stamp collecting or about getting a vast culture of prog music history but not being able to enjoy listening to most of it. |
Posted By: lensag
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 04:17
 that, my friend, is a balanced opinion, to which i totally relate.. And people here who know every album from every band and every lyric and all the history of all the bands not only from classic prog, but all subgenres of prog, and not only prog, and still have time to trash all the bands from other styles of music - oh my, what do they do for livin?
I can´t enjoy most of the music i own because i don´t have time - i´m a "normal person", i work, i have a family, i socialize - and i always thought if people like still feel something while listening to music. I mean don´t they get dessensitized? ------------- "when routine bites hard and ambitions are low, and resentment rides high but emotions won´t grow And we´re changing our ways, taking different roads.. Then love, love will tear us apart again.." |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 05:37
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Heyyyyyy, whaddya have against stamp collectors? To be honest I have a huge collection of music, before I started collecting music I collected coins, seriously. But there are only so many hours in the day. I currently have plenty of time to listen to music, I usually listen to it driving and have my own office where I can listen to whatever I like while I work. I have musical instruments and I like to mess around with them. Enjoy music to whatever degree and whatever manner you like, just enjoy. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 07:44
But what then is progressive rock? What about bands that are neither prog in the so called classic sense nor progressive and simply evoke superficial elements of prog vaguely? Why do they still get called prog? That is something I have never understood. What's prog or progressive about Nightwish or Mostly Autumn? Nothing too proggy about Ayreon for that matter, at least whatever albums I have heard. It just slots into prog metal...yeah, and therefore? Prog metal is quite demonstrably not the same thing as prog rock, even if some bands may display a progressive approach to songwriting. It's ok to have these (among many other) bands under one large database so people get to know about them and discover great music (which is absolutely the most important thing) but anybody who says they are not prog is absolutely right, at least the way I look at it.
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 07:55
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Faux prog fans Three (the album) Friends Two Lesbi-ans And A. Partridge in XTCeeeeeeeee!
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 07:55
Agreed, I wouldn't call some post rock or some black metal "prog" because it isn't "prog" in the sense it is used by most people (a sense that only covers something like, in my appreciation, a third or maximum a half of classic progressive rock, excluding most of what's progressive rock based on experiment, soundscaping, avantgarde, jazz, etc.). |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:00
| There are indeed classic prog bands who are not particularly progressive but because they are seen to be in the same genre as the defining prog bands from back then, I don't really find it confusing to call them prog. What is confusing for me is to call bands that are neither progressive nor prog, prog. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:06
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^ I doubt that people interested in those bands, even on PA, call them "prog" [for any reason except that what we're archiving in PA is conventionally named "prog", despite it being named in other ways on the same site on various other locations]. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:07
| Yes, that's a good point, agreed. |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:40
| for me New Wave is an offspring off Prog with punk mentality, and Neo Prog is an continuation of the prog that was in the 70s with new clothings (instruments, synth and more solid drum sound), and Post-punk is an offspirng of Punk but with the ambitious attitude of progressive rock, |
Posted By: Deleuze
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:43
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lol, I get what you meant, but what do you wanna do? kill the old men cause they don't wanna try other stuff...xD
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Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:52
| For me, enjoying progressive rock is about listening to music well outside my comfort zone. Magma and Soft Machine falls into that category. I started my "career" here as a symph prog fan, but have branched out in all directions thanx to the fine music and people in ProgArchives. This is in my view the essence of this place. |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:55
------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:57
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There are hundreds of Prog bands out there and the emphasis is way too high on Yes, Genesis, and Pink Floyd (D.S.O.T.M., W.Y.W.H., Animals, The Wall.
C'mon....lets be down to earth about this okay? Many people from my generation thought band's such as these were overrated in 1973. So, what are we talking about here? Granted, there are other places in the world that produce great prog bands besides England.....but, that's not so much the point here. It becomes too hyped when people persist on posting info about the usual suspects. The term "PROGRESSIVE" makes me sick. There is way too much analogy on the concept of combining progressive elements to original composition. There are too many terms and way too much analogy is made, causing many people to miss the boat (so to speak),. Then the argument of......"Well, I suppose if I grew up in your generation, I would understand prog right"? This entire debate is a poor excuse for defending oneself. If a teenager wants to learn about progressive rock, how will they ever flippin' learn anything truthful about it on this site, when there is too much emphasis on band's like Yes, commercial Genesis, and Pink Floyd? I'm sorry, but when I grew up with teenage proggers, we did not put our eggs all in one basket. Yes.....I know that's the way society was back then? But it's pointless to make reference to generation gaps. Who cares? the knowledge we gained from the music of our times was educational and we developed open minds to various music cultures because of it. So what? That is basically what a person is suppose to do anyway and it doesn't happen to often on progressive websites. It doesn't matter if the percentage of diverse listeners was huge back then,. .....look what's happened to the concept of prog......YES, GENESIS, AND FLOYD! Over and over again. Did you ever think to ask yourself....What does that truly mean? as opposed to the typical 21st century viewpoint....Well, everyone has a different preference. What the H does that really have to do with anything? What's up with that? |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 08:58
On the other hand "New Wave" doesn't mean "using synths" ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 10:06
Ayreon are prog because, in my opinion, of there ingenious use of synthesizers combined with there interesting structres, concepts, instrumentations, chords and sequences. They are like a metal band, but have progressed beyond - using unusual instrumentation and unusual structres. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 10:10
Synths are as old as Rainbow. In terms of structure too, I didn't hear anything particularly more involved than say something like Seventh Son of a Seventh Son (song) or Orion, unless there was something on that binary digit named album from 2008 which I haven't heard. The lyrical concepts are all that make them different from a stereotypical metal band...which is exactly like Queensryche, like Fates Warning, like Dream Theater. Lyrics don't by themselves make a band prog anyway. Fine, it's your opinion but Ayreon have done nothing of note to progress metal. They are, rightly, called prog metal, which is essentially a metal genre.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 10 2010 at 15:08
Sadly punk went a long way to closing minds by deriding progressive rock music
'Progressive rock' could only have happened when it happened.The sixties was a unique time for musical talent and the seventies was equally unique for the advancement of musical tech that provided exciting new possibilties to those musicians prepared to innovate. It was overwelming and could not be matched ever again.
What we have now is a nice diversity of bands that are not connected musically and so the idea of 'progressive rock' as a movement no longer exists. That must be a good thing in many ways but Yes,Genesis and Pink Floyd will always offer a convenient reference point regardless of what is going on.
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