Prog suggestions - is the best stuff already here?
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Topic: Prog suggestions - is the best stuff already here?
Posted By: Marty McFly
Subject: Prog suggestions - is the best stuff already here?
Date Posted: June 13 2010 at 02:37
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For last 12 months I was watching Suggest New Bands & Artists thread quite closely. I saw Helloween suggested few times, I saw many Metal/Hardcore/Alternative Rock bands where people believed they are Prog, but the responsible ones here on PA said that even there are sightings of Prog here and there, they in general aren't Prog at all. Prog-related isn't choice for these bands anymore, not many bands gets to this category anymore, so I think it is time to ask: For artists 1965-2010, so 45 years of Prog, Related & Proto artists, 1)Are all major players already here ? 2)How complete do you think that PA is (for artists UP TO now), because PA will never be complete (as new and new artists will appear, but we all can live with this, there's no other way). 3)Most suggestions here results in "NON PROG" statement from many people whose opinion I respect. Some people repeatedly said: "Shouldn't we concentrate on suggesting/adding real Prog now ?", but what it seems like that most of "real Prog" artists have been already added. Or not ? 4)Of course, there are scenes that are very sparsely explored. I live in Czech Republic, not many people know about my country's music, so I've been suggesting few bands here and quite successfully. And plan to suggest many more. My country's resources aren't depleted, my country still isn't explored so well. But let's say from UK, bands as big as Pink Floyd that were Prog would already been there, correct ? ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Replies:
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 13 2010 at 04:18
| Prog is fundamentally a style of rock music that emerged in the 70s and had its revival in the 90s through prog metal. So it is reasonable to say at least most of the best prog recorded to date that SOME people are aware of would be here. It would be hard to track down super obscure stuff, especially outside Europe and USA but I doubt a zillion King Crimsons are waiting to be unearthed. Maybe in the future over a long period of time but not from the ones who have played prog rock up to now. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 13 2010 at 04:22
actually that's what most of us spend time doing |
rogerthat wrote:Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: June 13 2010 at 04:27
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Yeah, obscure stuff. There are two types of people involved in this. First are those native to country that they are exploring When I'm from Czech Republic, I'm trying to cover stuff from my country, Slovakia and Czechoslovakia. Moris (clarke2001) tries to cover Yugoslavia, Croatia and countries that were made when Yugoslavia broke up. Keishiro (DamoX) is doing the same for Japanese. etc etc, I always hope that new collaborator can help us to get here bands from his country. Then there are people, mostly from USA/UK/Canada/France/Germany/Netherlands/Italy, who are exploring other countries stuff. I have a big respect for these people, as it must be very difficult for them. Exploring foreign countries. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: June 13 2010 at 04:31
Yep, good response
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 13 2010 at 04:36
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My brother, who is ten years older than I a, used to say "Kiffmusik", a German term which means "Music to smoke dope to". But he did not mean prog alone by that. No-one used the term "progressive rock" back then anyway, at least not in Germany.
-------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 13 2010 at 04:39
Indeed, my point was simply that as far as putting the best stuff that some people at least are reasonably aware of goes, prog archives is quite comprehensive as it is. The hunt for unknown gems must go on of course. |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: June 13 2010 at 04:59
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I think it's not the main task for PA to try so hard to get those obscure bands included. I think it's way more important to appriciate the less-known bands listed and release us from the Genesis-Yes-Floyd-etc domination in the topics and ranks. If everybody here would try to write as many reviews on the lesser known bands we would get a way more interesting PA top 100.
About the obscure bands. I know a vinyl collecter who knows about 10 Dutch progressive groups that aren't on PA. Some bands will be forgotten completely in the future, but I think the quality stuff is preserved pretty good here on PA. About the prog-related bands. I think people want to add bands because there simply isn't any side on the web that gives such detailed information on music. There isn't a genre that is described so well on the internet. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 13 2010 at 05:57
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We haven't found all the obscure and lesser known bands and albums from the 70s and in recent years we have added some absolute gems from that era that were signed to major labels yet managed to get overlooked, like Capability Brown and Automatic Fine Tuning, and other bands that self-released prog material in the 70s like After The Fire's 'Signs Of Change'(self-release was possible in the 70s, it was expensive and resulted in very low production runs of less than 250 copies - fortunately some of these have been re-issued on CD).
Prog Related is a matter of perception and definition - in the 70s every artist who was signed to Charisma, Harvest, Deram, Virgin and Vertigo was considered to be a progressive music artist while not actually producing Progressive Rock as we define it today - I would say that most of those artists would fit comfortably in Prog Related, even John Dummer's Oobleedooblee Band. ------------- What? |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 15 2010 at 20:06
I think that is a strange question ... and I wonder what size sock you wear on your left foot that you don't on your right foot!
Time is the judge and the scholar, not PA or you or I ... we can probably add to it. There will always be some folks that stand up more than others, but to say that no one today will stand up to them is, basically, to deny your very own children the ability to do something else and something completely different.
You have to make a call here ... do you care enough to allow your own children to go out and do something different, like these folks you like, or you want them to follow in your footsteps.
Now let's go back to your question about "prog" ... all arts, have been a progression of sorts. Major players come up all the time, and to say that some came up yesterday and none today is facile, stupid, lacking intelligence, and totally off center and extremelly not progressive in any way shape or form!
It's not complete in my book. There is a certain amount of intelectual discussion about music and history that is still ignored. Even some of Dean's posts mention these things, but somehow, too much of the description and discussion is about music and ideas and don't always make the direct reference to the very time ... nad he was there ... he has helped, though, by even showing us the word "progressive" being used ... that is very good! ... there are some very good ones by contrast, and this place is not bad ... could use allowing more voicings, for example I was a part of a massive thread on the cold war ... and it was basically ignored ... and that is sad. One of our time's most important pieces of music came out of that ... and yet ... when we mention something that makes sense by people that "were there" and were fighting for that freedom ... it's like ... "who does he think he is anyway?" ... and I felt ... sad ... not for myself ... but for the millions and millions of people that fought, suffered to get the arts, music, literature and many other things to be more visible to others ... but it means absolutely nothing to anyone here ... not an iota!
It's scary ... no one knows history!
And on top of it you get people that are "fans" and don't care about the music at all, and they will immediately dis-respect the thread and content ... and worse, never once read it! ... really good intelligent things to teach your kids ... to ignore you! Or others!
This is where you have to put your foot down. You either are a social minion, or you are an artist. The majority of artists that we loved, and created "prog" were not very good kissing socialists agreeing on everything that was around them ... they would not have been there! But somehow, in here, because of the "fan" side of things that we can not ignore -- it's not that bad! -- the tendency is to label things or you are not going to bother.
It's all a very commercial and social thing, don't you think?
In essence, all creators and originators, do not follow the same thing everyone else does ... so give them some credit!
I'm constantly on the battle with the London/NY prog thing ... like there are no bands out of San Francisco that can do prog, or bands from Ghana that can't do prog, or bands from Argentina that can not do prog.
The issue here is mostly a language speaking issue and many folks here are freaked out by listening to a different language ... so Rush is really safe ... but someone from Argentina, who might be better, won't have a chance!
Sadly, it is one of those ... might makes right issues ... and while I am not here to break, or kick the might, I am here to also poke fun at the might! ... the right'r they are, the wrong'r they will be soon enough! ... it's basic history ... your ego gets bigger and everyone goes after you!
I have asked and posted like crazy, about the progressive scene in amny other places ... but in the main descriptions of "prog" there is nothing about San Francisco, nothing about LA, nothing about New York, nothing about Tokyo, nothing about London ... nothing about Paris ... so all the music is put together by morons that don't know a world exists out there ... and you know that is not true, and is totally wrong!
The best stuff is ... what IS ... and the "when" is not important ... the more you accept that, the better music gets for you and yor inner learning and acceptance of the arts all around you and the world.
The rest? .. just commercial crap! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: June 15 2010 at 20:49
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Is the commercially successful stuff all here? Probably. The historically critically acclaimed bands? Most likely. But you asked "is all the best stuff here?" No. "All" being the key word. The obvious stuff is here along with tons of obscure stuff. But I find new stuff all the time that is great and I will continue to find it. I have found many bands here that were undiscovered by this site or other prog sites, and since adding them, people love them. That's what keeps me going. I think there are plenty of old obscurities and new bands coming on line to keep us busy forever. I don't think our "job" will ever be "finished" and that's the simplest answer to your question. Prog on! ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: June 15 2010 at 21:01
| Y'know, I've always thought The Doors should be on the site. Oh well, maybe that's just me. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 15 2010 at 21:08
| ../artist.asp?id=2772 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=2772 |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: June 15 2010 at 21:14
Oh. 
Why do I remember checking once and them not being there? Hm, weird. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 15 2010 at 21:17
| perhaps you checked Psych/Space |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: June 16 2010 at 08:25
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1) Yes, with no doubts, until a new big one appears. 2) There's a problem of individual criteria for inclusion of "borderline" artists. We may have infinite discussions about who should be added and who shouldn't be here. 3) Same as previous answer. I think that sometimes the NON PROG sentence is caused by submitting an artist to the wrong sub-genre. 4) I'm one of those who explore other countries stuff. I'm from Italy and there's a lot of people on PA more expert than me on RPI. So I look outside. I have found jewels in Slovakia (Collegium Musicum and Marian Varga), Hungary (After Crying, Janos Varga Project). There's no need to mention Polish bands like SBB and Riverside. Yesterdays from Romania are great, too. I'm used to follow Keishiro's suggestions (Far East Family Band just to mention one). One of the most prolific countries is NL with Ayreon, 35007 and Group 1850. Guruh Gipsy from Indonesia, Gazpacho from Spain, There are a lot of things to discover, just don't stop searching. 5) You didn't ask, but Phil Collins IS NOT PROG!  ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 16 2010 at 15:41
What an absolute pair of gems those two albums are as well!
And that version of Liar is way better than the other one! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: June 16 2010 at 15:50
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Most of.
But we always want MORE! -------------  |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 16 2010 at 15:57
I agree.
But The Doors, fit also into another area that is difficult. In essence, they were, and still are, the best American Rock band ever. And unlike most of them, one that truly wrote things and worked with lyrics as "art". However, there were portions of it that were filling out albums that I always thought was more about the record company than anything else. But, granted, some of it is good.
If you take their 5 or 6 albums (goodness, I have to count now!) and trim some stuff down, you would have 4 massively progressive albums with long cuts!
It's not a stretch, and one of the really difficult things that is not discussed here enough is how some of these west coast bands inspired a lot of progressive music through the long cuts. You can laugh at In-a Gadda-da-Vida all day long, but the inspiration that something like that is to European bands can not be over looked. heck, Golden Earring's first album was a 20 minute version of The Byrds hit song!
Amon Duul 2, probably owes a lot of its lyrical intricacies more to The Doors than any other band ... but the problem is, how you, a fan, and anyone else, is going to discuss here ... "you can whip the horse's eye ... or you can not petition the lord with prayer!" ... and justify anything on a musical level ... but one has to remember that it is the "feeling" and the "expression" that creates music ... not just notes! ... and guess what "prog" is about? ... (well certainly not that group asking for a name!)
"Prog" owes the majority of its journey to places like The Fillmore, The UFO, and some other clubs out there, who allowed bands to fly and play ... and stretch and flow ... and it is hard for me to let go of that notion. To me, a lot of the London "prog" was simply a more artistically refined version of San Francisco ... but sadly, we do not even list the names of the bands that were playing in SF at that time ... well, with all due respect, the Hearst's didn't give a dang about the local music scene either like Melody Maker did! --- and in essence, that is the biggest difference between SF/LA and London ... there is a measurable respect for the artistry in London, that there isn't in the US ... at all !!! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: June 17 2010 at 17:34
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I also realized that many of these suggestions that are doomed to fail are by people who are here very little time, months, weeks or sometimes even days. Hell, often it is their first post - purpose of their registration is to suggest group they like. Not Prog group, because they usually don't know how it's working here, but the first thing they do is suggesting band that stands no chance to be accepted. Oh dear. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: June 17 2010 at 17:59
They are from Norway, naughty boy. First you stole our fish, now you are stealing our prog bands. There is many good bands out there which is not included in PA. I have many good albums which should had been here. And I am speaking DT, Genesis and King Crimson copies. I think Elend, Misantrophe, Sunday and Changing Images is bands who should be included here. But those are my views. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 17 2010 at 18:16
As has been said, great music is being uncovered all the time. There are a huge number of acts from past decades (including the late 60's and 70's) that are suitable for PA, and many more cropping up. Additionally, the parameters of this site are expanding (so I'll talk of so-called Prog as being what's deemed acceptable for so-called Prog categories) as acts are let in, and I think there are many amazing ones that have been considered, but for various reasons haven't been accepted or have been accepted but never added, and many more that may not be suitable now will be deemed acceptable in the future -- at least hopefully, I think. Part of that depends on what one's progressive rock and so-called prog categories parameters are. Even major players that delved into some of the categories are not here yet (for instance, in JRF, but then most of those would be better known for jazz than Fusion... e.g. Sun Ra, Donald Byrd, or Herbie Mann who is famous for pop etc.) Look through the past year's suggestions and you'll find an incredible number of suggestions that were deemed prog (and a lot of suggestions made directly to teams). I rather like quite a few of those suggestions by new members whether I agree or not. Because they don't have the same knowledge of how things work here, they might suggest music that veterans would not think to suggest and it might make certain veterans re-think the kind of music that could be allowable. Of course it's common for such people to just be pushing a project because they have a connection to the act itself, and so it's a way to advertise the band, or it's just because they really like the music and don't really know "prog" (I hate the term to describe all the music under the PA prog banner here) as conisereed acceptable to teams at PA and commonly are not familiar with our categorisation systems or the category definitions/ criteria. Sometimes I'm upset about what seems to be ridiculing/ insulting/ sarcastic posts when someone suggests something that doesn't fit PA expectations. I think it's important to go a little farther in trying to be understanding and polite when shooting down new people's suggestions. I really dislike sarcasm, though. You even find different members making the exact same disparaging, or sarcastic comments. One can be frank, and explain, without rubbing it in (making someone feel like an idiot). The big names, in terms of having international financial success, that are Prog proper are mostly here. It's discovering the obscure but great for my tastes that interests me more, mostly, though. There are so many bands/artists I would like to suggest, but providing music for evaluation has been problematic (and I don't to have to add a bunch of bands, which is something I think the suggester SHOULD do (at least an SC add it for the member, but the work is in the preparation), and have already not stepped up to the plate to add bands a few too many times -- even some acts I really love I opted out of adding and feel bad about not doing the work beyond suggesting it and making a case myself, which can be very time-consuming in itself.). |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: June 17 2010 at 23:46
I have downloaded some albums and those in English are excellent. The others in Spanish are very bad and not prog at all!!!
 ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: aniedziolko
Date Posted: June 20 2010 at 20:20
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Let me risk your disapproval with a suggestion on my first post, but I am really curious about what you are going to say about this little band.. I have chanced upon these guys in a small music bar in harrogate next to Leeds a few weeks ago, and I immediately became hooked to their sound, which I myself would call progressive. Lighthearted-progressive. They remind me of early-days Yes.. Do you think they might have what it takes to achieve greatness? They didn't even have more than a couple fan-made videos on youtube, I bought their album for a fiver from a box. Still I felt like I was discovering something.. They're called The Birdman Rallies, I threw together a little video for them, I want people to hear them, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27GIA_11GqM or check out their Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/thebirdmanrallies - http://www.myspace.com/thebirdmanrallies I don't even know which song to recommend first! Destined for your wheels, Those amazing persians, well check them out yourselves. Is my judgment off? I haven't gotten through many topics yet, but I hope there's plenty talk about Porcupine Tree around here as well? |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: June 21 2010 at 06:54
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Not all the big names are here. Of course, you can't count on newcomers - I just added Stick Men yesterday, and they will became a household prog name, but as far as the past goes, we have holes in the database too. Artists renowned in their country - millions know such an artist, such is Baris Manco; or artist that are world renowned such are Madredeus. Such artist are still missing here. But such 'holes' in the database are getting smaller and smaller. ------------- |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: June 21 2010 at 13:34
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I was thinking about these big names. There are some big names, but some of them are controversial, so their addition will be difficult. But when something is big name, why isn't it here already, what's preventing it from being here ? Time ? Other evaluations ? I'm not sure if big names or obscure albums are priority of this site. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 21 2010 at 13:45
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What is your definition of a "a big name" Marty? Who would be a big name that we haven't considered already - or even one that has been considered and not acted upon? ------------- What? |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 21 2010 at 13:47
Apparently, soon one or more of the teams will need to evaluate Ennio Morricone - now there's a "big name" 
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: June 21 2010 at 14:55
Do you men that to know prog music one has to be registered on PA since years ?
Why should one suggest groups he doesn't like?
------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 21 2010 at 15:48
They ran away and hid when you were looking for them. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 21 2010 at 20:27
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Hi,
I think that we have pretty much covered up all the "big names" ... what is missing is the stuff that was around, and never made it to radio, or got an ear, but with the Internet, there is a chance that many of those bands can be heard and defined and eventually also appreciated.
I am of the opinion that the biggest issue with the divisions is that it tends to pin bands down in areas that they eventually are not a part of anymore. So Caravan is progressive but is not symphonic, and their most fascinating work ever, was done with an orchestra and is by far one of the best rock albums EVER done with an orchestra that is ABOUT MUSIC ... not just playing that Elton John song, which is more ego than it was symphonic! The New Sinfonia, quite simply, is one of the best rock/orchestra things you will ever hear ... and you got a whiff of it in the ending sequence of "For Girls Who Grow Plump In The Night" ... and nothing is really more "progressive" than that work ... and symphonic at the same time!
In general, I think the divisions are necessary, but a preface (and Chart) needs to be added to each of those definitions, so that people can understand the basic premise behind the music ... a lot of experimentation, adventure, and lots musical passages, and sometimes lyrics. And this ability emcompasses more than a musical "style" ... for example, Peter Hammill can just as easily fit in prog rock, as he can in prog folk and prog bizarro ... as he can just about anywhere else.
The hard part is saying something like ... KC is this! and DT is that! ... and then someone will never really check them out because they like "symphonic" and we have not made it clear enough how "symphonic" really fits into the progressive family tree.
It just adds to the confusion ... sometimes. It's the best out there, unfortunately, and one has to give Dean and some of the others a lot of credit for it, they are being copied silly! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: June 22 2010 at 07:12
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We can't make rules here, it's more feeling thing, but I suppose that for example Pink Floyd, Genesis, Yes, King Crimson are big names. Rolling Stones is big name too, but its addition is problematic, because most don't consider it as Prog. I don't know them at all, so I'll stay undecided in this matter, but what is big name and what isn't, where is this line, I don't know. The problem is that we probably have all Prog big names here, the rest of big names are those who are partially Prog and has problems to get here. This is what I meant. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: June 22 2010 at 07:19
No, I'm not suggesting that. All I'm saying is that because I've been watching Suggest New Bands thread quite closely over the course of one year, I can say that most of these unlucky suggestions (most of replies saying it's not Prog at all) are by users who are here very short time, or it is their very first post. They registered, because they wanted to suggest their band of dreams. They wanted to suggest band that they LIKE, so they're trying to fit them to Prog somehow. I like CCR, I like Classical music, but I'm not suggesting them here. On the other hand, I like HitchcockGoHome!, Post-Rock from France and I suggested it, because I believed it's good for Post-Rock. And I was successful. Being here longer helps to make general knowledge and awareness about what is Prog and what is not. We don't want people to suggest Britney Spears just because they like her. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: June 22 2010 at 07:23
Evaluating Britney Spears or Phil Collins shouldn't take too much time... ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: June 22 2010 at 07:24
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And finally, please don't misinterpret me this time. I'm not against these suggestions at all. I'm against ridiculous suggestions, but I'm aware that we need them to keep our teams busy and our site updated + we can get a lot of obscure, unknown stuff this way. Another one, I quite liked Nirvana when I was younger, but I don't want to see them here. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 22 2010 at 07:40
^ They are already here: ../artist.asp?id=2892 - NIRVANA 
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Posted By: Tsevir Leirbag
Date Posted: June 22 2010 at 13:00
I used to write lots of biographies for artists from Québec. I plan to start to do that again eventually.
Now I'm often looking for European avant-garde music.
So I understand both kind of research for music. But I think PA is pretty complete, even if we keep looking for obscure bands that aren't here. ------------- Les mains, les pieds balancés Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers, Un marin mort, Il dormira - Paul Éluard |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: June 22 2010 at 22:09
Damn you Jim Morrison!
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Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: June 22 2010 at 22:11
Speaking of which, you should've seen my surprise when I was scouring the site long ago and came across "Nirvana."
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Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: June 23 2010 at 08:53
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^ I was surprised too. For few seconds before page was loaded and content understood.
------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |