Magma´s ideology controversy. Read this!
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Topic: Magma´s ideology controversy. Read this!
Posted By: moebius
Subject: Magma´s ideology controversy. Read this!
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 09:17
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Please be patient and check the following links. I´ve founded this in a great blog about zeuhl, looking for legal downloads of magma bootlegs. My intention is just to make this information available to magma fans... I haven´t find this topic in the forum so far, so I posted it. If i´m breaking any rules please let me know.
The controversy: http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/some-words-about-recent-controversy.html - http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/some-words-about-recent-controversy.html Emmanuel Borghi´s comment (ex-keyboardist) http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/emmanuel-borghi-posts-comment.html - http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/emmanuel-borghi-posts-comment.html Magma´s response http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/magma-speaks.html - http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/magma-speaks.html Member of Magma speaks http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/angry-female-kobaian-member-of-magma.html - http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/angry-female-kobaian-member-of-magma.html Magma´s official statement http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/another-comment-from-member-of-magma.html - http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/another-comment-from-member-of-magma.html Response from a german Magma fan (worth reading) http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/response-from-olvator-of-hamburg.html - http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/response-from-olvator-of-hamburg.html |
Replies:
Posted By: whydontyoueatcarrots
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 09:58
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I certainly hope there isn't some anti-semetic message to Magma's music, but to tell you the truth, I wouldn't stop listening to them.
------------- Mom, I tore a big hole in the convertible |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 10:00
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No sign of a rebuttal from the Magma camp ?
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 10:00
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This smells like some huge bullsh*t.
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 10:07
| Vander's affinity for excentric stuff is well documented (including other people around him, like Daevid Allen, speaking of his fascination about anything Nazi), but, like others have said, I doubt that the Nazi message has permeated in in any ways the music and the ideology of Magma. |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 10:38
| While I don't think that Vander was really a Nazi, but if this is true, I probably will lose a lot of respect for Magma. How could one think such a thing? |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 10:41
Completely offtopic, César, don't you think your banana sig pic has lived its life and can now be replaced? 
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 10:59
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There's a very long and drawn out debate on this on the progressiveears site.You might have to go back a few pages to find it. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: d.o.k
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:02
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The saddest part is that there is NO answers from Magma members rejecting and denying whats been said before. BTW thank you Moebius for your presentation of the facts. This is sad. ------------- my band : http://lgab.tk - http://lgab.tk |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:24
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I read it with interrest, but some of the accusations are quite ridiculous. take for example this: In MDK, "Fuhl mehn Fuhl ehndoh litaah" actually means "für mein Führer Adolf Hitler". that is not even correct German (correct would be "für meinen Führer Adolf Hitler". the adjective "mein" becomes "meinen" in the accusative case) -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:26
To be fair, no one said it was supposed to be German...I mean it obviously isn't....if it was then the the translation would be obvious . ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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BaldJean wrote:Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:30
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Let me make it absolutely clear that I abhor racism and anti-semitism in all its forms. And I hope you do too.
Indeed, I find it almost impossible to enjoy HUNKY DORY (by David Bowie, one of my favourite rock artists) because of Bowie's unwise flirtation with Heinrich Himmler and the concept of "the Superman" (= Uebermensch). But apart from certain things Christian Vander may have said in interviews and in private (and you know how artists enjoy shocking people), are there any obvious traces of Nazi-worship in Magma's music? If there are NOT, I think there's a case to be made for (a) enjoying Magma just as before and (b) ignoring Vander's despicable views. You see, I feel tempted to approach Vander in the way Daniel Barenboim (a well-known Argentina-born Jewish conductor) approaches Richard Wagner. Wagner was a notorious anti-semite, and in his case there can be absolutely no doubt: he actually published anti-semitic literature. But Barenboim believes (as I do) that most of Wagner's operas can be enjoyed in spite of this. Barenboim even took some of Wagner's music to be performed in Israel. Obviously, not all music-lovers will forgive Wagner as readily for his political views as that. But you could if you wanted to. |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:32
Magma has denied this. See the opening post here and the links http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/magma-speaks.htmlkohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/angry-female-kobaian-member-of-magma.htmlkohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/another-comment-from-member-of-magma.html - http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/magma-speaks.html http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/magma-speaks.htmlkohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/angry-female-kobaian-member-of-magma.htmlkohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/another-comment-from-member-of-magma.html - http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/magma-speaks.htmlkohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/angry-female-kobaian-member-of-magma.htmlkohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/another-comment-from-member-of-magma.html - http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/another-comment-from-member-of-magma.html That is three rebuttals. I am not expressing any views here btw. But I have yet to see anyone here condemning the companies which actually carried out Holocaust. That include one company which has made it possible for us to discuss Magma's alleged sins in PA and for the Nazis to murder 6 millions Jews (or 7.5 millions which is the most recent figure). |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:35
| To reinforce what Fuxi just wrote, I'd like to bring up the case of one of my favourite writers - HP Lovecraft. He was openly racist (and a lot of his work, as well as his letters, support this fact), and for a time he was a keen admirer of Hitler. Knowing this, I still manage to enjoy reading Lovecraft's stories, though obviously the more racist passages make me cringe. It's not easy, especially for someone like me who has always been very strongly opposed to that kind of ideology. However, I also believe that art, in many ways, transcends the miseries of human nature. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:38
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hey, wait a minute. what's gone itno you all? some people are actually behaving as if there was some substance to these accusations
------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: d.o.k
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:42
This is exactly it. There is NO denying. These 3 answers never say things clearly. they prefer saying that Magma is defending an ecological earth, and fights extremist capitalism.... instead of getting precisely to the points and responding to them. ------------- my band : http://lgab.tk - http://lgab.tk |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:45
Weird... none of those links are working for me. I would dearly love to read those rebuttals though - have they been posted elsewhere? My own feeling on this issue is that it's pretty clear Vander's a strange guy - too strange to be overtly racist in any kind of meaningful/dangerous sense. The interviews I've read with him all seem to be peppered with spiritual musings which are borderline incomprehensible; a fusion of so many different ideaologies. To call Vander a Nazi would be a gross simplification. However, I am fully prepared to believe that Vander has some kind of fascination with Nazism or fascism. But, just as his spiritual views are complex and impenetrable, I imagine the same would be the case with his political views. In short, I love Magma's music and mere grisly speculations are not enough to change that. |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:45
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Sorry, d.o.k. I was very much mistaken. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:48
I don't believe that's the case at all, it's just that the (published) responses to date from those currently purporting to be within Magma do not contain an unequivocal denial. -------------
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:54
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That news are quite old, i know that since 1989 -------------  |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:58
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I've known this since 1988. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 11:59
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@ Dok: On the contrary, in the last link they clearly say they belong to NO ideology and that all such accuses are not true. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 12:00
well, I am not sure what you would call a denial. if I held a speech somewhere and you'd accuse me it was about racism and anti-semitism and I pointed out that it rather was about ecology I'd take that for a perfect rebuttal ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 12:16
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Hmmmm...hmm. That was a good post from a German fan, and touching at that. A few thoughts of mine: Lot's of contemporary artists, coming from metal, punk, prog, gothic, industrial etc. are somehow resembling a certain...'Nazi kunst' spleen to their artist identification, be it musical, visual, or both. Many of them are NOT sharing the seemingly sinister (actualy ultra-right winged, excuse the pun) political ideas and motivations - Laibach springs to mind, with their lobotomized visual aesthetics, military uniforms, album titles such is 'Occupied Europe Tour' etc. They were often being accused for embracing Nazi ideology, while the situation is exactly the opposite - they are using the tools for provocations - while deeply behind their artistic statement is nested a political and philosophical one, which is opposite, criticism and warning. There are many artists sharing the same sharp and penultimate provocative aesthetics, and tagging them as Nazis is equally narrow-minded - or at least hasted - as calling 99% of metal artist 'Satanists'. Of course, there are bands that are actually wallowing in Nazi ideology and believing in it, but that's beside the point and I won't talk about them. I'm not defending Magma, and I'm not accusing them neither. I utterly despise Nazi ideology - I consider myself a humanist, but, as far as the art goes, I don't mind anyone to shout their angst in the most pervert way as possible: call for hatred, call for murders, rape, defecate on stage if you want. Make people sick and uncomfortable. Call for every shocking and horrifying thing that humanity, unfortunately, did experienced and still does. As long as there's an explicit line between what are you doing in the name of art and your private life and beliefs. Such an artistic exposure could be irony, parody, allegory, provocation, shock for the sake of shock. But if someone believes and defends all that off the stage, then I do pity such an individual. Speaking of Magma, it seems the band members are intelligent individuals, sharp and bitter about dull and dumb everyday life and establishment surrounding. But it's true, they hadn't explicitly answered 'yes' or 'n' to accusations directed towards them. I hope that's for the sake of keeping the provocative edge sharp rather than hiding what Vander & co. actually think about such ideology, if it's true. And if it's true, well...I don't know. Here's an example I'm familiar with: during the political storms of Yugoslav wars, madness and hatred, many Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian rock fans experienced too radical statements from certain artists (no matter the side) - some of theme continued to listen the music, some just stopped listening to artist(s) altogether, some embraced the 'they're a****les, but they make good music' attitude. You can't predict it unless it actually happens. ------------- |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 12:18
Or take Céline. In spite of his disgusting anti-semitism he wrote one of the greatest French novels of the twentieth century. Or Ezra Pound. His support for Italian Fascism was plain stupid - but he wrote a great deal of highly enjoyable poetry! |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 12:21
Some rumors aren't worth addressing. Of course, that only makes some people believe in them more (WHERE'S OBAMA'S BIRTH CERTIFICATE!!??), but responding to the rumor that you're a Nazi will only perpetuate the belief that you're a Nazi. And it won't convince the people who want to believe otherwise. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 12:25
Agreed, if you alone were identified as the speech's author. It's only Vander who is being accused of anything here, and he has not seen fit (perhaps with some justification) to respond. I can understand this to an extent, as if the accusations are baseless and false, why dignify and legitimatise them with a reaction ? However, hiding behind the 'united front' of the Magma moniker probably won't douse the flames quickest. Similarly, when your lyrics are entirely in a manufactured language of your own invention, how surprised can you be when you're 'misquoted out of context ?' etc -------------
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Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 12:25
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My girl said that this banana picture is weird. To topic: Isn't it something almost wished, in dream-like scenarios ? Like Stairway to Heaven with satanic message when playing backwards ? ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 12:44
we should also keep in mind that history is always the history of the winners. which means they usually depict themselves as choirboys and the losers as black as they can. mark that I am not denying the Nazi crimes. but I am an historian and know too well that the hands of the winners are blood-stained as well ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 12:46
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fascinating.  ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 12:54
That's why I am sceptic towards the ones who glorify Mao and Stalin too. A view I expressed in my review of Little Red Record by Matching Mole.
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Posted By: theBox
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 12:58
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Actually this is rather old news....the truth is not easy to determine, the main argument against the accusations seem to always be that Vander was/is a huge follower of Coltraine and that "coloured" and Nazism don't mix....go figure....Personally, I tend to always focus on the music and not on the personality/beliefs of the artist, although I must admit it's not always easy.
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Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 13:02
I've always wondered if the sleeve of Little Red Record wasn't meant as parody. After all, Mao's Red Guards never approved of long-haired proggers, and perhaps Wyatt & Co were aware of this. On the other hand, Wyatt actually went on to join the British Communist Party and he recorded a song in praise of Stalin. Now THAT's where I don't go along with him. |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 13:11
I doubt it. Back in those days, laughter was banned as the subversive middle class thing it was. |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 13:23
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I'm not sure yet... As I see it. Mekanik Destruktiw Kommandoh = M.D.K. (the ultimate weapon) = Murder, Death, Kill. Coincidence? Perhaps but I don't think so. If you listen to the beginning of the Retrospektiw I-II version of M.D.K., you'll notice it is different to the studio version. In fact, I can imagine the crowd pumping their fists in the air and yes, it does kind of remind me of Nazism. However, this could just be an ideology and he's using it as an example of how "evil" the Kobaians are. For those who may not know. M.D.K. is the third part of the Theusz Hamtaahk Trilogie and is the story of the prophet Nebehr Güdahtt who tries to tell the people of earth to cleanse themselves by singing the "Zeuhl Wortz" (in worship of Kreuhn Kohrmahn) to save themselves (the first part, Theusz Hamtaahk narrates the war between Earth and Kobaia). Some don't believe him and march against him. Whilst some do believe him and march for him. Unfortunately, Vander has not made clear whether the Kobaians destroy Earth. If this is the case, then there could be a slight case of Fascism here. However, many novelists write about subjects they don't necessarily agree with. Was Nabokov a dodgy guy for writing Lolita? -------------   
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 13:31
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The music of Magma always makes me think of rallies, marches, uniformity, and creepiness. It's niche and unique in that respect. I cannot be moved to care about this issue at all though. Just as Magma's music is inconsequential to me, so is it's mastermind's ideology. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 13:33
oh, come on, James. MDK can stand for ANYTHING, if you argue like that. how about "Mango, Dattel, Kokosnuss" (German for "mango, date, coconut"), 3 exotics fruits? ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 13:36
Or even "Milch, Dreieinhalb, Krankenkasse" 
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 13:40
Indeed. But if it does correlate with Murder, Death, Kill it doesn't matter anyway as I don't think Vander's a Nazi or a Fascist. -------------
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 13:52
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Why would it be Murder Death Kill anyway? That's a stupid acronym. Murder, Death, or Killing would be sufficient for your nefarious purposes. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: d.o.k
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 14:11
which can also be considered as a very easy answer since it's answering about Magma the band but not Christian Vander himself. Still no denying. ------------- my band : http://lgab.tk - http://lgab.tk |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 14:18
| ^ I would assume that referring to Magma also includes Vander, it's logical. |
Posted By: d.o.k
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 14:24
That is indeed a good point too. ------------- my band : http://lgab.tk - http://lgab.tk |
Posted By: d.o.k
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 14:41
Yeah but I could be a pedophile+neo-nazi+murderer and absolutely not expressing it in my band's music, that is why I see a difference between the man and the musician, member of a band. ------------- my band : http://lgab.tk - http://lgab.tk |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 14:46
That's a good point, but on the other side, all the evidence provided were interpretations of his work and acts as a musician, not personal deeds. |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 15:09
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"< ="utf-8">Mekanik Destruktiw Kommandoh = M.D.K. (the ultimate weapon) = Murder, Death, Kill. Coincidence? Perhaps but I don't think so." I'm not sure if I now have more respect for Magma for being associated with bad Sylvester Stallone movies or less respect for the producers of Demolition Man for being "into" Magma at that level.
I find myself equally indifferent to both. |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 15:16
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There was also a really bad computer game called M.D.K.
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Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 15:21
Er... How do you explain those matching moles on the cover of the band's FIRST album? ("Does anybody here remember LAUGHTER?" )
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 15:41
I disagree. This fan is hurt because Magma/Vander uses nazirelated quotes and images. Well, I assume they do this to create their complex art concerning war, destruction, good, evil and so on. He demands an apology because he's been exposed to an image of an Albert Speer building, and what might be an extract from a Goebbles speech! He doesn't seem to take into consideration about how or why its used, or that its presented within a context. This is nothing to come out and apologize for. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 15:50
And what about titles such as "Instant Kitten" and "Instant Pussy"? |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 15:56
Hey! I would think you would be the last person to trash talk Bioware. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 15:59
Most mice regards cats as the ultimate terror = evil fascists = Nazist = Holocaust. Everything depends on how each and individual react when confronted with a sound/picture/smell. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 16:01
I have a magnet on my fridge that says, "People who don't like cats were probably mice in an earlier life" ... |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 16:08
Killing Nazi's is a bloody business, but someone has to do it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 16:13
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That is most definate a fridge magnet I endorse and will purchase. Back to topic again: I can understand why Magma get fascist/nazi associations by some. Their music is a bit Horst Wessel at times, they have covers which may be associated with a totalitarian political belief. Their Kobaian language is a bit mystic and their society is almost like Free Masons. Hence....... Magma = A Nazi band. Logical !! I remember this type of thinking, and I was very much guilty myself in this type of thinking, from the Black Metal scene in Norway. They too were called Nazi scum and got tonnes of bad press from this. And that was even before anyone in the Norwegian Black Metal scene even uttered a single word. The scene was branded as Nazis just because of the music, the clothes, the names and because they did not conform with a liberal humanistic ideology. Hence......... the Black Metal scene = Nazis. Logical !! It is just what we have become. (Disclaimer: I do not accuse Magma or the Black Metal scene of being Nazi)
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 16:19
Having read interviews with some members of those Black Metal bands, I beg to differ. Their ideas, though not 'Nazi' in a strict sense, were definitely racist, xenophobic and rather violent overall. And then, what about the church burnings - some of which destroyed some valuable ancient buildings? Not the work of mild-mannered individuals, that's for sure. |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 16:22
Ah but Albert Speer wasn't convicted of any war crimes whatsoever and died in the 1970s. But anyhow... let's get back on topic. -------------
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 16:47
Yes, and? ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 17:00
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There wasn't a point, I was just saying.
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 17:22
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Also for a footnote Albert Speer desings the world cup football Throphy ------------- |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 17:46
No he didn't. The original Jules Rimet trophy was designed by Abel Lafleur and was presented to the World Cup winners until 1970. During World War II, the trophy was held by 1938 winners Italy. Ottorino Barassi, the Italian vice-president of FIFA who secretly transported the trophy from a bank in Rome and hid it in a shoe-box under his bed to prevent the Nazis from taking it. The trophy awarded from 1974 onwards was designed by Silvio Gazzaniga. How do I know this ? because I'm a sad man whose life is but an empty husk.... -------------
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 17:48
Thanks for the clarification ------------- |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 17:52
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Vander sounds like Vader, who was a bit like Hitler. It fits! |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 19:47
It's not that simple. It seems like there actually were Nazi elements in Vander's history. See this quote from Daevid Allen: "The fact that Christian Vander had swastika flags all over his bedroom and pictures of Hitler and would leap up and do kind of imitation Hitler speeches in the middle of his drum solo didn't seem to faze him all that much. It fazed everybody else. But Giorgio just loved the music, and loved the cultural impact of the music." The question is: were these just aspects of an excentric persona Vander built for himself or were signs of a genuine ideological orientation of his? I assume the first answer is the true one, but we'll probably never know for sure. |
Posted By: Eapo_q42
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 20:35
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Well said, Harmonium.ro. But even if it *is* just an aspect of an eccentric persona, how can he justify creating a persona that trivialises the death and humilation of millions of people....especially when the persona is created, at least in some small part, to generate profit? |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: January 18 2010 at 22:25
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And was the point? Vander is or not a symphatic person to Nazism? ------------- |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 02:31
The question is also: "How reliable is Daevid Allen's testimony?" Anyway, I sympathize with Magma fans who are hurt by all the allegations. I have a similar problem with Kenso, who I consider to be the best & most original prog band of the past 25 years. They've got some tracks with titles like "Mediterranean and Aryan" or "The Fourth Reich". They even have entitled an entire album SPARTA. Does this mean they have Nazi sympathies, or just that their leader (Yoshimasa Shimizu) had been reading about such matters? The music gives no indications either way; it's almost entirely instrumental. If anyone out there knows more about this matter, please let me know! |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 04:11
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The fact is that Vander has neither denied or confirmed anything. As it stands now; we do not know. It is though very harmful for a band/a person to be called Nazi. Their livelihood is on the line because they will be denied any work in Germany and most parts of Europe too. Which means legal implications all around. I am speaking of experience. So for the record: I am only accusing Magma for being a band who has released some albums. The rest; I do not know. I think sending an email to Vander is in order here. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 07:14
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RE Daevid Allen, I don't know. I think I read the same story somewhere else, but I didn't bookmark that page and now I can't remember where it was... One thing that hasn't been said in the whole debate is that if a Frenchman is going to have extremist views, he/she would not adhere to Nazism. French people still hate Nazis and Hitler because they invaded France. The regular extremist ideologies in France are extreme leftism and nationalism a la BNP. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 07:22
Alex, I don't live in France, but I am European, and have been following current affairs for a long time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember BNP leader Jean-Marie Le Pen made some very controversial statements as concerns the Holocaust and Jews in general, and was also prosecuted for that. I believe that calling the BNP just a nationalistic party is an understatement. We don't have a Neo-Nazi party in Italy either (and we were also invaded), but those who embrace far right ideologies generally have a strong anti-Semitic, racist and xenophobic bent. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 07:34
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I didn't follow French politics and I now that I moved to France I'm still not planning to , but you're right. All right wing extremist ideologies share most of their targets (immigrants, Jews, minorities, the global conspiracy, the enemy over the border, etc.), regardless of the "denomination". If Nazism is hated in France that doesn't mean right wing extremist don't share many of it's fundamental "ideas". (BTW, Inglorious Basterds is huge in France, even my favourite magazine voted it best film of the year. ) Anyway, I would suppose that if Vander was ever fascinated by Nazism, it was for exteriour aspects (militarism, the usage of myth of the super-human, it's dark visual aspects, show-off, elitism, arrogance, etc.) and not because he believes in it's ideas. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 07:38
This is actually what I believe as well. The Nazi aesthetics (or, better put, the totalitarian aesthetics) do seem to hold a sort of uncanny fascination for some artists, as I think was Bowie's case too. Unfortunately, though, we should never forget that for human beings it is easier to hate than to love - as the spread of racism and xenophobia in civilised countries proves all too well. |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 07:59
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Which reminds me about a meeting back in the 1980s in a pub in Austria of Homo-Sexuals with a fetish for Nazi uniforms and high leather boots. They were gathered for their annual get-together when they were rumbled by the local leftist and Anti-Nazi league who got their wires crossed. Maybe because of the Nazi uniforms the gays was parading in. The local SS Wehrmacht brethren also got their wires crossed and wanted to join this meeting of "like minded". The end result was a heck of a riot ............ |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 08:03
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the human ability to hate everyone who looks different is a stone age reflex. everyone who looked different did not belong to the tribe and hence was an enemy. unfortunately we all are more governed by our stone age reflexes than we usually realize. and I mean ALL, without any exception
------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 08:08
Which reminds me of a song by Dire Straits called "Les Boys" (from the Making Movies album), which might have been about the same incident. |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 10:24
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http://www.orkalarm.co.uk/orkalarm09/09_the_golden_years.htm - http://www.orkalarm.co.uk/orkalarm09/09_the_golden_years.htm
Interesting link about the topic ------------- |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 11:00
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Others that have used Nazi/WWII German aspects as part of their image or music: Bryan Ferry - there was a big hoohah about that a few years back Blue Oyster Cult - well they use a drawing of a Messerschmitt Me 262A on the cover of one of their albums. Of course, that doesn't mean anything really... but some people could misconstrue it as such Bowie - as already mentioned I'm sure there are others. People like to use imagery whether they agree with it or not. Prince Harry dressing up in an SS Uniform was just for sh*ts and giggles but he had to apologise for it (and rightly so). -------------
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 11:38
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I just want to point out that the original article makes a lot of definite wrong statements. for example, the "Übermensch" concept is not by Himmler but by Nietzsche and has originally nothing to do with the Nazis at all. it just means that we should strive to be more than "just human", though Nietzsche never fully explains what he means by that. the concept reminds me of a poem by German poet Christian Morgenstern, which I will present in translated form here: The Symbol of Man "Show me", a demon spake to me "Show me man's symbol, And I will let you go". I therupon, pulling my Black boots off my toes, Spake: "This, demon, is man's Gruesome symbol; a foot of Coarse leather, no longer nature Yet also not become spirit yet, A wandering form from animal's foot To Mercury's winged sole". As an effigy of ridiculousness I stood there, a new saint. Yet the demon, indefinably Sighing, bowed down and wrote With his finger on the earth. this poem depicts human beings in their current form: able to cogitize yet still ruled by animal instincts. it seems that what the poet and Nietzsche have in mind is striving towards a being which is free of these animal instincts. the Nazis had their own interpretation of the "Übermensch" concept and used it for their racial ideology, but the idea itself has originally nothing at all to do with national socialism or with racism by the way: when Peter Hammill sings the line "in the death of mere humans life shall start" in "Childlike Faith in Childhood's End" he refers to that concept of the "Übermensch" ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 14:28
| Interesting statement, BaldJean. The problem is that too many people have fallen for the idea of the Uebermensch AS INTERPRETED BY THE NAZIS, never mind if this is a perversion of Nietzsche's ideas or not. |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 14:29
Off topic: very well then, I'll change it. On topic: Well, this seems to be one of those topics where the subject just can't go forward. In the first place, I don't think Vander is a nazi, but if he is, will it make any difference? I doubt it. Secondly, people are dying TODAY due to the action of authoritarian regimes all over the world and you are still discussing something that won't change our lives a bit. Hitler killed over 15 million people and nobody did nothing to spot it then. Actually, the world only took some action about it because they lost the war. The Commies death camps continued to work for decades after the end of nazi Germany and they killed well over 300 million people and nobody seems to care (Stalin and Mao alone were responsible for almost half of that). Actually, it has become hip to use clothing with communist symbols (ostalgia anyone?) and still people don't see nothing wrong with bearing a flag or the symbol from one of those said "socialist republics". The Japanese, during WWII killed over 10 million chinese people in death camps and did thing to them just like the nazis did to the "lives that were unworthy to live" and not only they were not punished by it, but they were awarded with the biggest economic recovery plan ever. Even today, a country that has to import almost everything they need to survive and to keep their economy going, is the second biggest economy in the world and they still have a racism problem there. Seriously, this whole """magma is racist, gaise!"" thing seems to me as a way to attack Christian Vander and his wife to a personal level and if there were really something about it, Vander would still be in jail today for playing that kind of music. After all, if the mormons or any other cult were unable to dig anything bad about them, odds are it is only a rumor. -------------
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 14:45
Well, there is a big difference between ethnocentrism and racism. Ethnocentrism (is very few words) is to value everything related to your culture and means of life and try to impose those to the "barbarians", wile racism is (in very few words) the hatred towards any human group specifically for any given reason (different skin collor, different religion, etc) AND the desire to eradicate that human group. Also, ethnocentrism date back to our ancestral times, wile racism is a rather new idea, only possible due to the Age of Enlightenment, when the idea that every human being is equal was crafted, at least in Europe. After the Enlightenment, there were created means (ideas) to justify the exploitation of other human groups, such as Africans and Indians (both from the Americas and from India), and those means (ideas) gave birth to what we call today racism. I tried to make a very brief summary about it, I hope it is good enough!  -------------
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 15:56
but ethnocentrism is the base for racism. everyone who looks different is not to be trusted ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 16:32
Well, you really got me here, but I don't think that is the case, because many States throughout the history of mankind had many different people living peacefully within its borders, like the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Inca Empire, etc, ethnic differences in general were used, in one way or another, to justify racism. But the thing is, until the XVIII century, people were naturally not equal. One group of people could be superior to the other by birth inside one nation (nobleman and peasants would be the biggest example of that) and, because of such inequality, people could be so low they became objects (slavery through war, debt, lack of honor, etc). That is why, in the Roman Empire, for example, everyone could become a slave and everyone could become a nobleman: you could become superior or inferior to other people due to your merits/honorable deeds, etc. However, that does not meant they were racist. All the world did this! Africans sold African slaves to Europe since Antiquity and vice versa. Indian castes were also due to that idea: people came from different parts of Ganesha, therefore they are unequal. On Modern times, when that idea of equality was created, such human hierarchy was abolished and new means to justify that hierarchy were created, most notably the white man's burden, that said that the white man must bring the other races of the world to their level and, until then, they were inferior to the white man. Actually the idea of race is itself racist. That is because, until the XVIII, most people would be categorized by their nation / culture instead of the color of their skin. This generalization by skin color made it possible to exploit and make countless people inferior without seeing their culture / nation and making such exploitation viable. People being different will always be used in various ways, but that can be used even inside a big family! Despite the ethnic differences being used as some kind of base to racism, it does not means that, just because you value your sets of beliefs and your culture you are being racist, just like it is not the other way around. Disliking different people is not racism, but it may lead to. EDIT: just one more thing I forgot: in case you think about African slaves in the Americas, just remember that the Europeans only made big settlements from the late XVII to early XIX century on. Until then, there would mostly be strongholds in the coast were the Europeans (mostly portuguese an dutch) would trade goods (from gold and silver to clothing and alcohol) with local tribes and nations for slaves. The slave commerce was really profitable both for the Africans and for the Europeans until the XIX century, when European nations took a foothold in Africa and forcibly captured people and enslaved them. -------------
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 17:20
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in the 19th century it wes indeed a common belief that "the white race"is "superior to "the black race". but it was quite difficult not to fall for that idea; after all "the white race" had a higher level of technology than "the black race". I am pretty sure even people like Abraham Lincoln suffered from that misconception, no matter how much he abolished slavery. the mere idea that a black person would one day be president of the Untied States must have appeared ridiculous to him, and not just because he doubted anyone would vote for for a black person. keep in mind that back then there simpy was no black person with a high education, and it was quite easy to fall for the misconception that black people are less intelligent than white people. on a slightly different note: hardly anyone is aware how very sexist the English language is. Douglas R. Hofstadter, who wrote the famous book "Gödel, Escher, Bach" which won him the Pulitzer award, elegantly demonstrated this by writing a language column in the style of William L. Safire under the name "William L. Satire", in which he replaced any allusion to gender in the English language with an allusion to skin color. Hofstadter let the fictitious Satire defend the way the language is now. the whole piece sounded horribly racist ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 19:49
| Sorry guys, I had to hide some posts; claiming that an entire nation is racist defies common sense and is against PA's policy concerning racism, likewise singling out any race as lacking intelligence is likewise against PA policy on racism too. |
Posted By: Procol Harum Machine
Date Posted: January 19 2010 at 20:06
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I cracked up at "magma bootlegs made legal". ------------- 
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Posted By: Nuke
Date Posted: January 24 2010 at 17:29
Well, I hate to defend the church burnings, but the point of the church burnings is that the churches were built on top of pagan holy sites. They would view the church burnings as defending pagan beliefs against the Christians, who basically destroyed their religions by force. While I do agree that it is a bit petty to bring up hundred year old wrongs, I wouldn't classify it is racist or xenophobic. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Seabury">  
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 25 2010 at 05:48
You misunderstood me, or (more likely) I didn't make myself clear enough. Even if motivated by the defense of the ancient pagan tradition, the church burnings were acts of vandalism against cultural heritage, which is something that I would never endorse. I am originally Italian, and not particularly happy about the interference of the Catholic Church in my country's affairs - but I would never promote the destruction of the myriad of historic (not to mention beautiful) church buildings spread all over the country. |
Posted By: moe_blunts
Date Posted: January 25 2010 at 07:51
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Who cares what they believe?
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/moe_blunts/?chartstyle=minimalDarkRecent"> 
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Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: January 25 2010 at 10:41
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In most European countries, you don't get gigs if you are reputed to be a Hitler admirer and/or associated with a fascist/nazis ideology. Which means you will not get any meaningful income from your music. I think that is pretty serious and that is why I am not accusing anyone for anything without any satisfying evidence. With all respect and humility; I have yet to find any evidence in this thread.
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Posted By: Jake Kobrin
Date Posted: January 25 2010 at 14:18
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I really don't care, and that's coming from someone who's Jewish himself. If Magma turn out to be Nazis, then f**k the members of Magma, but I'll continue to love their music and hope that they produce more. As a metal fan, I've had to learn to put up with arrogant and racist ideology. I listen to plenty of bands who, albeit amazing musicians, spread a lot of negative beliefs. But yeah, I really don't care... I try to keep the music separate from their ideas, which isn't too hard with a band that I can't even begin to understand what they're saying like Magma.  ------------- http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dr-Neil-Kobrin/244687105562746" rel="nofollow - SUPPORT MY FATHER AND BECOME A FAN Jacob Kobrin Illustration |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: January 25 2010 at 17:36
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I agree with you, Jake Kobrin. But there is countries in Europe who does not agree with these views.
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Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: January 26 2010 at 03:10
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These views have been dpoing the rounds for decades. Vander loves Coltrane's jazz - who wouldn't. They even did A Love Supreme. The press originated (or lat least the idea was originated within the press) since the first concerts performed with the members wearing black and only the logo showing. There's no real substance and I think it's just a publicity - not stunt - but event Vander has allowed to perpetuate. let's face it Magma are not exactly an easy sell to the mainstream. or even out here in prog rock land. Still there's plenty of rock for Nazi gossip. Clapton's chat about Enoch Poell being right for Jamaican citizens not finding the UK a good home for non Caucasian folks. He even used to call a black man a spade. Very odd considering his influences and associates. The aforementioned Bowie doing his Nazi salute in London's another. It's good to talk about this though. The facism of political correction usually has people scared to say a word that could be misinterpreted. But as for Magma, part of the Magma Kobaia story involves annihalation and the Nazi's were pretty good at this. Mind you so was Stalin who did in more than 4 x what the Nazis amanged. But communism never had such a poular image as the Nazis.... ... the above observatrion hopefully should illustrate why I think Vander has pretty much allowed these ideas to continue. It's image and associated perception. Lucky this does not effect the music of Jannick Top! Not even producing Celine Dion can do that! |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 26 2010 at 08:44
You know, sometimes, if you don't refresh people's memories, unpleasant things may happen - like the children of an elementary school in Northern Italy being taught a Fascist anthem prior to a school trip to Rome (something that should be illegal, according to our Constitution). Especially in times of economic crisis, there are far too many people who believe that the solution to any problem is to have a 'strong man' in power - this is what happened in both Germany and Italy in the first half of the 20th century. That said, I don't really believe Magma (even if the rumours were true) are in any way as dangerous as any political leader (and I use the term loosely here) could be, as far as the spread of Nazi ideas is concerned. As to the use of Nazi-like imagery, as I said in an earlier post, it could be a purely aesthetic matter - Pink Floyd did much the same on The Wall, and no one thought they were Nazis. |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: January 26 2010 at 15:04
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As to the
use of Nazi-like imagery, as I said in an earlier post, it could be a
purely aesthetic matter - Pink Floyd did much the same on The Wall, and no one thought they were Nazis. *** Not quite Raf. First, the skin heads used in the movie took it a little too seriously. This is mentioned in interviews with makers of the Wall. Some critics also took it a little too literally. Y'know, portray something therefore you belive it. The use of derogatory terms was also taken seriously and literally. I think some people forget things are art and get taken in by them. The skinheads are one thing but critics are supposed to have at least a modicum of education. I once saw a woman in a bookstore holding a book that was a history of the Nazi SS. She said it was disgusting. I thought the book was as far as I could tell an accurate history of the Nazi organisation. But she took it to mean it was a glorification. (Presumably because it looked nice...) With things like facism and National Socialism one has to be very careful. There is a very powerful element and when it's out in public there is little control over outcome. |
Posted By: Digestor
Date Posted: January 28 2010 at 00:04
Luckily most actually racist metal bands are pretty crappy, so they're easy to ignore. That having been said, I wouldn't really care if Magma's views were offensive. I can't say I would listen to a band I liked if the lyrics were blatantly racist, but I can't understand what Magma is singing about anyway. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 28 2010 at 00:36
interesting-- clearly the Nazi-like imagery in The Wall is not in support of it (in fact it holds it up to mockery), but I'm sure there are people who both don't understand that and object, or don't understand that and like it. Either way, they don't get it. |
Posted By: FoxHeadGenesis
Date Posted: January 29 2010 at 16:10
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Exactly! His comment is just a subjective struggle, because he gets offended by these "nazi"-images. It's like if I'm googling Germany, and a image of Adolf Hitler comes up, am I then right to demand an apology from Google for showing me this image? I think this whole debate is absurd, with people trying to find things that aren't there. Remember "Paul is dead", anyone? Sorry for my bad english. ------------- Giant Hogweed Lives! |
Posted By: FoxHeadGenesis
Date Posted: January 29 2010 at 16:11
In my first post, I was quoting this text, but it didn't come along. ------------- Giant Hogweed Lives! |
Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: September 03 2010 at 21:57
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Sorry for resurrecting this thread from the tomb of Emmehnteht-Re, but have you noticed that there is a swastika on the cover of Magma's first album?
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