New Subgenre: Rock Andaluz
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Topic: New Subgenre: Rock Andaluz
Posted By: ProgressiveAttic
Subject: New Subgenre: Rock Andaluz
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 08:09
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Since we have here a Rock Progressivo Italiano subgenre despite its similarities with Symphonic Prog, I would like to propose Rock Andalúz as a new subgenre for similar reasons.
"Rock Andalúz" is a Spanish musical and artistical movement from the province of Andalusia as a consequence of the recently born Andalúz nationalism of the mid 70's with the purpose of producing popular music(rock) with Andalusian folk influences. The genre was started by Gonzalo Garciapelayo who founded the Gong label (as a tribute to the Canterbury Scene band) which produced the first album of the genre: "El Patio" by Triana (1975). The "Rock Andalúz" is characterized by the mixture of symphonic prog (inspired by british bands such as ELP, Yes and Camel) with Andalusian folk, which includes the tango, rumba, bulería and arabic music + jazz rock/fusion in some occasions. Common instruments present in the genre are keyboards, electric guitars, electric bass, various percussion instruments, flamenco guitar, claps, castanets, arabic vocalizations, among many others. Among the most representative bands of the genre we have: *Triana (the founders of the genre - mainstream Rock Andaluz) *Imán, Califato Independiente (Rock Andaluz with jazz and electronic influences) *Guadalquivir (Rock Andaluz with jazzy tendencies) *CAI (mainstream Rock Andaluz) *Alameda (mainstream Rock Andaluz) *Mezquita (Rock Andaluz with experimental tendencies) *Granada (mainstream Rock Andaluz) *Medina Azahara (Rock Andaluz with metal elements) ------------- Michael's Sonic Kaleidoscope Mondays 5:00pm EST(re-runs Thursdays 3:00pm) @ Delicious Agony Progressive Rock Radio(http://www.deliciousagony.com) 
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Replies:
Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 08:35
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It was already suggested before: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41703&KW=prog+Andaluz&PID=2634220#2634220 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41703&KW=prog+Andaluz&PID=2634220#2634220 , http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19131&KW=prog+Andaluz&PID=1866013#1866013 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19131&KW=prog+Andaluz&PID=1866013#1866013 , but rejected. I don't think the idea will be accepted now. ------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: snobb
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 08:43
| Yes, because the next step will be more geografical sub-genres one after another... |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 10:32
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I do remember another consideration would be the small number of groups that could clearly be identified, then the possibility that the criteria would be loosened, and finally, as mentioned , a hoard of other geo centric sub sub genres. RPQ Regions Extreme/Tech Metal (Rock progressif Quebecois, from outside of Montreal, tech/extreme metal) Yes, that division could actually be delineated ... ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 10:36
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wouldn't Mars Volta be included ? thus the start of one common denominator that makes up but one part of a band's sound while the rest offers so much variety that the "andaluz" part merely spells out the one shared aspect.
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 10:41
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I was part of this discussions, at least the latest two times
Geografic based genres are wrong, the only exception is Rock Progresivo Italiano.
In the case of the Andaluz bands, some are mainly Symphonic, others are Jazzo riented and there's even one that is probably being moved to Prog Related. Triana for example is a 100% Symphonic band with Flamenco elements, but their central sound is in Symphonic.
This has been dicussed at least 5 times I remember and rejected all of them.
Cheers
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 11:07
Even some of the RPI bands don't really fit in well with the other RPI bands, my main example being Area. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow"> 
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Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:Posted By: omri
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 12:07
If I am not mistaken Area is classified as Jazz-rock / fusion.
Ivan, I think it's fair to say that Krautrock is another geographic based genre. However, I do agree these exceptions are more than enough and that the rejection of any geographic based classification is right. ------------- omri |
Posted By: Luca Pacchiarini
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 12:07
| I support Rock Andaluz as a separate subgenre :) |
Posted By: Nightshine
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 13:46
So what makes Italian Progressive Rock any more important than any other country's progressive rock? It's mostly symphonic progressive if you were to slice it down. As well, none of the bands have the quality or originality to be put into its own subgenre.
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 14:11
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Oh well. Both kraut and RPI have far stronger credentials than Rock Andaloon as far as I'm concerned.
------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 14:12
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http://progfreak.com/home/music.xhtml?path=tags/ethnic/andaluz - http://progfreak.com/home/music.xhtml?path=tags/ethnic/andaluz Any help completing that list is greatly appreciated. All you need is to create an account and assign the tag - and any genre or other tag. You don't have to decide between Symphonic, Jazz or Andaluz, any combination is possible.  ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 17:24
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there have been a few serious discussions about RPI's validity as a separate genre. And, just as often, we have people offer up groups like Area as being an example of why RPI is not a very apt description for a genre. If one would pick & choose amongst groups in any genre, one will find some that are at the edge of the genre, and could be arguably be settled in another genre. Indeed, if and when there is a sufficient case or arguement for doing so, PA has shown itself very open-minded to doing so. Emphasis on a sufficient case being presented, not just "'cause I think so". Krautrock also has its' own "sound". And just like RPI, not all bands from Germany are slotted into Krautrock because of their country of origin. Are there some commonalities in some nations' musical scene ? Yes. Are there enough to justify more Country based genres ? No. Andaluz has been debated to death. And the end result is the same - the Andaluz part is stretched thinly when it comes to identifying a sufficient number of artists that could constitute a separate genre of Prog Andaluz. The downfall comes when reviewing this list of artists and finding too much variety to appose a description. You can't have ten different sub prog andaluz sections containing 3-4 bands each. Sooooo , if anyone really wants to pursue the matter, here is my advice - 1) assemble a list of bands that would make up the genre; 2) review the list very closely to ensure it is not comprised of bands clearly identifiable under other established PA genres (i.e. Area is in JR/Fusion not RPI for a good reason); 3) ask yourself if the andaluz influence is the dominant & most important component to the bands sound (see # 2); 4) prepare yourself for the probability that there are not enough artists with enough common elements in their music to truly constitute a separate genre; 5) ask for other examples of national musical traditions that do not, nor will not make up a separate genre (France's chansonnier, American Pop, Quebec traditional folk, along with europeen & other regional folk traditions). Finally, feel free to continue the discussion. But only if you have something new to offer. Repeating the same old arguements won't succeed any more than they have in the past. SO, let's see the list. Not a dozen . ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 18:10
I don't believe so OMRI.
Krautrock is not a regional based genre, it's a sound a style and as a fact there are Kraut bands from USA, UK, Switzerland and many multi national like Tony Conrad with French, USA, German and British members.
Let me tell you somethig Nightshine, I was against the incluson of RPI, I even requested the Italian Symphonic bands to be added to Symphonic, but the majority and te owners decided the contrary, this caused me problems with my good friend Micky. But I respect their decision
But in any case, almost 200 Italian bands make a different case than ten or twelve bands of any other region.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 18:10
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Not this old chestnut again!
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 19:26
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still roasting !
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 19:58
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I propose the tech/extreme/black/depressive/doom genre. In fact why not propose another 1000000 genres while we are at it. |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 22:52
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If this does get anywhere I think we should make a 'world music influenced prog' type genre (not necessarily with that name). I don't really give a crap about whether we include rock andaluz, but I'm just saying that the 'world prog' subgenre would be a lot easier to maintain. We could even throw the Raga rock bands in there so there wouldn't be as pointless of a subgenre. ------------- 
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Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 22:57
Hey, don't you have some goofy grindcore noise to take off the market for us? Now, let people who like real music get to talkin' about stuff that matters, got it? Anyway, there is a definite stylistic similarity between many of the groups suggested by ProgressiveAttic. Its enough of a difference to mark them apart from progressive artists from other regions and with different approaches to music. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 23:05
I don't know, I think I knew about a genre that fits this description....Isn't it called FOLK?
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 23:05
I find it interesting that nobody listens to Raga. Maybe it's because the people who would listen to that would rather listen to real Indian music and not a George Harrison wannabe. At least that is the case with me. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 23:35
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Not that we should do this, but it actually makes more sense than a lot of stuff proposed here.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 00:15
Sorry Mike, your posting of Andaluz tag option doesn't help this discussion even a little bit. I have the utmost respect for you, your work, and your website. But Andaluz is one among twenty sub-tags there and carries no credibility to discuss here whether Prog Andaluz is a valid as a PA prog subgenre or not. Having dozens of tags is a great thing to pin-point an artist and attract a listener in a most visual and analytical way possible, but if you have had only 10-15 subgenres on PF, that would carry some weight as an well-established genre in the artistic and social context (and could be taken into account while discussing it here). ------------- |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 03:05
| I agree that creating a Prog Andaluz section could lead to a proliferation of sub-genres, each having only a handful of bands. If geographical area is to be a criterion, what about opening it out to include the whole Iberian Peninsula... bands from Spain and Portugal, Prog Iberia? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 03:21
You're right in pointing out that the fact that Andaluz exists as a tag at PF doesn't help the discussion here. However, if the discussion here takes its inevitable course and Andaluz is not created as a sub-genre here, Some of those who like the idea of compiling a list of progressive albums in that style are invited to do that at PF. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 04:34
While I don't disagree with you, does that make it necessary for the artists to be put into a new sub genre? I mean, any of these artists who aren't on PA could easily fit in other subgenres. Also, you can't really say that one artist belongs in the same subgenre, or even on PA, because of a 'stylistic similarity' with another artist... I mean, New Order have some 'stylistic similarities' with earlier No-man, but does New Order belong on PA because of these small shared characteristics? Hell no. Also, as Snobb said, if we add another geographically based and named subgenre, another and another and another will follow. ------------- 
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