Suggest New Bands and Artists - This year's Helloween thread

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This year's Helloween thread

Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=62480
Printed Date: March 03 2025 at 06:03
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Topic: This year's Helloween thread

Posted By: paganinio
Subject: This year's Helloween thread
Date Posted: October 31 2009 at 05:26

Read old discussion in the Archives:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43368&KW=helloween - Helloween thread 2007

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48871&KW=helloween - Helloween thread 2008

I saw that most people supported Helloween, so maybe we'll make it happen this year? Don't they deserve a place in Prog-related or Proto-prog-metal?

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FAQ section

Q: Who are Helloween?

A: One of the few metal bands incorporating prog elements before Dream Theater were formed in 1986.

Q: Are they in the Progarchives?

A: Google says no.

Q: Did people suggest them before?

A: Twice, says the forum search box.

Q: Did they get in the Progarchives after people suggested them?

A: I ... SAID... NO!!!

Q: What's your problem?

A: Just trying to get into festive mood, I guess.

Q: What festival?

Q: They were rejected twice. What makes you think this year's gonna be any different?

A: Because this is the first Halloween since Paganinio moved in. You see that? That is Paganinio waving at the mods. Thumbs Up

Replies:

Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 31 2009 at 08:31

They are NOT prog metal, and it's not worth it for us to evaluate them. I definitely do think they should be prog-related though. But keep in mind, my opinion means nothing. It's up to the admins to make that decision.

-Jeff

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Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime

Posted By: daslaf
Date Posted: October 31 2009 at 08:34

If you're out there all alone, and you don't know where to go to!! Come and take a trip with me, to fuuuutuuure wooooorld!!

hahahahha, I love helloween but there's no way they are prog

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But now my branches suffer
And my leaves don't bear the glow
They did so long ago

Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: October 31 2009 at 09:00

At least this suggestion is with some background research and awareness of older suggestions.

Keeper 1&2 - perfect, other albums - not so sure. Prog ? well, that's the question

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There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

-Andyman1125 on Lulu

Even my

Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: October 31 2009 at 11:26

I love Helloween , is one of my school band when I was 15-15-17, excellent, good old time, but no way that Helloween are prog not even related. They are a heavy metal band withteutonic feel, that means melodic powermetal made in Germany. So a big no for inclusion here no matter how much I like them.

Dr Stein

Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: October 31 2009 at 14:31

Yep, Germany has trademark on that

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There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

-Andyman1125 on Lulu

Even my

Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: November 02 2009 at 09:16

Again: yes. If nothing else, Chameleon is pure prog rock album with flutes, horn, jazz elements, orchestras, choirs, synths, violins.

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https://japanskipremijeri.bandcamp.com/album/perkusije-gospodine" rel="nofollow - Percussion, sir!

Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 02 2009 at 10:11

As far as I can recall, they have not been considered by the Admin team for Prog related. I'll be happy to ask the Admin team for a decision if anyone is serious about doing the bio etc. required.

Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: November 02 2009 at 19:52

Easy Livin wrote:

As far as I can recall, they have not been considered by the Admin team for Prog related. I'll be happy to ask the Admin team for a decision if anyone is serious about doing the bio etc. required.

Hi Bob,

Thanks for bringing this up to the admin team. I really do feel they belong here somewhere. If you do need a bio and such, I would be glad to write it. I am VERY knowledgeable about this band, so if they are cleared for prog-related, I'd be glad to write a bio and add them.

Let me know,
Jeff

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Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 02 2009 at 20:38

If we add Hellowen, we should add every Metal band with a keyboard and a couple long tracks, and unlike most Metal bands, have heard them ad nauseam, being that one of my closest friends is a diehard fan (BTW: The guy also an expert on Prog Metal and never made he connection).

In addition

They have been rejected at least twice
Have checked several Prog sites

Progressive Ears (Not included)
GEPR (Not included)
Proggnosis (Not included)
Progressor (Not included)

Mike who knows more about Prog Metal than most of us describes them as Power Metal with no Prog connection in other threads.
Have checked Encyclopaedia Metallum who know more about Metal in general terms than 99.99% of us and describes them as Speed Metal (early), Power Metal (later)

Please, aren't we insisting too much when all the people who REALLY know about them makes no Prog connection?

Iván

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Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 05:28

clarke2001 wrote:

Again: yes. If nothing else, Chameleon is pure prog rock album with flutes, horn, jazz elements, orchestras, choirs, synths, violins.

Surely, the music on the album is varied. But it doesn't make it prog, at least for these ears. A very good pop-rock album I'd say. The reason I wouldn't mind seeing them here though (in prog-related) is their long, multi-part suites like Halloween and Keeper of the Seven Keys.

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"Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent."

Charles Bukowski

Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 11:04

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

If we add Hellowen, we should add every Metal band with a keyboard and a couple long tracks, and unlike most Metal bands, have heard them ad nauseam, being that one of my closest friends is a diehard fan (BTW: The guy also an expert on Prog Metal and never made he connection).

In addition

They have been rejected at least twice
Have checked several Prog sites

Progressive Ears (Not included)
GEPR (Not included)
Proggnosis (Not included)
Progressor (Not included)

Mike who knows more about Prog Metal than most of us describes them as Power Metal with no Prog connection in other threads.
Have checked Encyclopaedia Metallum who know more about Metal in general terms than 99.99% of us and describes them as Speed Metal (early), Power Metal (later)

Please, aren't we insisting too much when all the people who REALLY know about them makes no Prog connection?

Iván

Alright, there's definitely a few things wrong with this, and I'll explain what I think is wrong with each point:

1. They have been rejected at least twice. By who? Yes they've been rejected by the metal team, but didn't Bob state the admin team hasn't evaluated them?

2. So what? I'm not going to check those sites right now, but I doubt every band we have here is on those websites. I doubt Iron Maiden, Led Zeppelin, and Metallica are included on all of those sites as well. We shouldn't base our opinions on the opinions from other prog sites.

3. That's his opinion. It's up to the admin team to decide that.

4. What do you want Encyclopedia Metallium to categorize them as? Prog-Related Power Metal? They are not prog metal, so Encyclopedia Metalium would not categorize them like that! This is again, just somebody's opinion, and not where we should base our decisions. If I'm correct, you do believe Iron Maiden belongs here, and they're catogorized as Heavy Metal/NWOBHM. We shouldn't base our opinions around what other websites think in general.

If you don't belive Helloween belongs there, fine. But these points really aren't very valid points for making our decisions.

-Jeff

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Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 14:12

J-Man wrote:

Alright, there's definitely a few things wrong with this, and I'll explain what I think is wrong with each point:

1. They have been rejected at least twice. By who? Yes they've been rejected by the metal team, but didn't Bob state the admin team hasn't evaluated them?

In the two threads the tag Prog Related was mentioned, please read them.

2. So what? I'm not going to check those sites right now, but I doubt every band we have here is on those websites. I doubt Iron Maiden, Led Zeppelin, and Metallica are included on all of those sites as well. We shouldn't base our opinions on the opinions from other prog sites.

Lets see:

Iron Maiden is in: Progressor, and Progressive Ears.
Led Zeppelin is in Proggnosis, Progressor and Progresiveears
Metalica: is in Progressiveears and Proggnessor
HELLOWEEN IS IN NONE

It's not definitive, but it's a sign, if a band from the 80's is not added top ANY Prog site, in almost three decades, most surely is not Prog or even related, some oif this sites have added Grabnd Funk Railroad as a prog Metal band....but not Helloween.

3. That's his opinion. It's up to the admin team to decide that.

They will decide, I'm only giving MY opinion.

4. What do you want Encyclopedia Metallium to categorize them as? Prog-Related Power Metal? They are not prog metal, so Encyclopedia Metalium would not categorize them like that! This is again, just somebody's opinion, and not where we should base our decisions. If I'm correct, you do believe Iron Maiden belongs here, and they're catogorized as Heavy Metal/NWOBHM. We shouldn't base our opinions around what other websites think in general.

If they had any Prog connection, believe me, the tag Prog Metal would be added.

And yes, we don't base our opinions in General music sites exclusively, I mentioned that no Prog site has them....But the opinion of a METAL site is valuable for Metal bands, Prog or not Prog.

If you don't belive Helloween belongs there, fine. But these points really aren't very valid points for making our decisions.

This points are absolutely valid, they are used by all the teams in lesser or higher degree.

The Administrators have created a category called Controversial bands.

EASY LIVIN wrote:

Controversial band additions

Bands and artists will be considered potentially controversial if they:

Are not generally listed by other prog sites* AND/OR
They have been rejected in the past on the basis of their prog credentials OR
Are flagged up by the team concerned as being potentially controversial OR
Are flagged up by the admin team as controversial

* The requirement is that at least 2 other sites dedicated to prog have identified the band/artists as being prog. New bands are excluded from this requirement.

One a team has been identified as controvetial, we would recommend contacting the Admin team at this stage

Reaching a decision

If a team of three or more members are unanimous in deciding that a controversial band should be added, this will be sufficient to go ahead with the addition. Note that while the team must have at least three members, all the team members must have voted yes.

On behalf of The Admin Team (Angelo, Bob, Dean, Guigo, Jim, Jody, Tony)

So, my arguments are valid, they have been mentioned and added vby the Administratotrs team.

Even though Prog Related don't follow this guidelines, all the alert lights are own:

Rejected before
No Prog site mentions them
Specialized Metal sites describe them as non Prog
They have been in the mnarket for almost three decades and not recognized as Prog.

If it's yellow, has feathers, makes a quack sound and swims it's usually a duck.

Iván

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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 15:28

Helloween does have some albums reviewed at Sea of Tranquility, but although it is a venerable Prog site, I believe, it does not limit itself to so-called Prog. To quote:

" http://www.seaoftranquility.org/ - Sea of Tranquility - The Web Destination for Progressive Music! javascript:void%280%29">

Web zine with news and reviews of heavy metal, progressive metal, and progressive rock."

Here's a review anyway: http://www.seaoftranquility.org/reviews.php?op=showcontent&id=763 - http://www.seaoftranquility.org/reviews.php?op=showcontent&id=763

...the newest from Helloween delivers the hard-won reward promised by its title. Rarely have progressive, power metal and classic rock n' roll elements blended so nicely, showing all their facets while maintaining the force we look for in this music....

From what little I've heard: Somehow I think that there is more deserving music for Prog Related that had a bigger impact on Prog bands, and fits the general criteria better for the category (edit: I know this a not a valid statement against inclusion). And Pulsar's Halloween is in, anyway! ;)

Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 17:02

^Sea of tranquility just reviewed the last Marduk album... while a decent norsecore black metal album, it has 0.0000% progressiveness .... That website is the least effective reference....

NO in prog metal.

Maybe also NO in related.... But I'm no admin...

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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 17:55

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Lets see:

Iron Maiden is in: Progressor, and Progressive Ears.
Led Zeppelin is in Proggnosis, Progressor and Progresiveears
Metalica: is in Progressiveears and Proggnessor
HELLOWEEN IS IN NONE

If they had any Prog connection, believe me, the tag Prog Metal would be added.

And yes, we don't base our opinions in General music sites exclusively, I mentioned that no Prog site has them....But the opinion of a METAL site is valuable for Metal bands, Prog or not Prog.

If you don't belive Helloween belongs there, fine. But these points really aren't very valid points for making our decisions.

This points are absolutely valid, they are used by all the teams in lesser or higher degree.

The Administrators have created a category called Controversial bands.

EASY LIVIN wrote:

Controversial band additions

Bands and artists will be considered potentially controversial if they:

Are not generally listed by other prog sites* AND/OR
They have been rejected in the past on the basis of their prog credentials OR
Are flagged up by the team concerned as being potentially controversial OR
Are flagged up by the admin team as controversial

* The requirement is that at least 2 other sites dedicated to prog have identified the band/artists as being prog. New bands are excluded from this requirement.

One a team has been identified as controvetial, we would recommend contacting the Admin team at this stage

Reaching a decision

On behalf of The Admin Team (Angelo, Bob, Dean, Guigo, Jim, Jody, Tony)

So, my arguments are valid, they have been mentioned and added vby the Administratotrs team.

Even though Prog Related don't follow this guidelines, all the alert lights are own:

Rejected before
No Prog site mentions them
Specialized Metal sites describe them as non Prog
They have been in the mnarket for almost three decades and not recognized as Prog.

If it's yellow, has feathers, makes a quack sound and swims it's usually a duck.

Iván

I still do (respectfully) disagree with a few points, Iván. Being on the markets for 3 decades and not being recognized as prog has nothing to do with their entrance into prog related. If we were talking about Helloween being added into Symphonic, Eclectic, Prog Metal, etc. this would be very relevant. But we're talking about prog related here. Led Zeppelin is not reconized as prog, nor is Iron Maiden, Metallica, or just about an other artist in Prog Related.

That draws back to my point about Encyclopedia Metallium's classification of Helloween. Helloween is NOT prog, so Encyclopedia Metallium should not site them that way. Their main focus is NOT progressive music, so they aren't going to mention prog-related or not on all of the bands. This pretty much shows lack of knowledge about how that website works, because if you look up ANY metal band classified as "pog-related" on our site, it will be classified as power metal, speed metal, thrash metal, etc. Not prog-related metal. If a band is not prog metal, they shouldn't be called that.

While I was not aware about the fact that we consider other website's opinions, this is only to determine "controversial" band additions, not determine the entire thing in general. And keep in mind, if Progressiveears and all the other websites thought this way, no bands would ever get added! One of these websites will add a band first, so why not us?

By the way, Wikipedia states some of their albums as prog rock or prog metal here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chameleon_%28album%29 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chameleon_(album)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeper_of_the_Seven_Keys,_Pt._1 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeper_of_the_Seven_Keys,_Pt._1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeper_of_the_Seven_Keys:_The_Legacy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeper_of_the_Seven_Keys:_The_Legacy

If you don't think they belong here, fine. I'm not sure that I even do myself. But this isn't an irrelevant discussion at all.

-Jeff

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Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime

Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 18:52

so it begins...

Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 20:06

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

In the two threads the tag Prog Related was mentioned, please read them.

They weren't rejected from the admin team in either of those topics. Some people were against it, but the admin team never said they rejected Helloween. People did object the idea, but they were not rejected.

-Jeff

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Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime

Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 20:28

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

some oif this sites have added Grabnd Funk Railroad as a prog Metal band....but not Helloween.

Oh...well then we can therefore disregard anything they have to say about Prog Metal.

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http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 20:35

J-Man wrote:

I still do (respectfully) disagree with a few points, Iván. Being on the markets for 3 decades and not being recognized as prog has nothing to do with their entrance into prog related. If we were talking about Helloween being added into Symphonic, Eclectic, Prog Metal, etc. this would be very relevant. But we're talking about prog related here. Led Zeppelin is not reconized as prog, nor is Iron Maiden, Metallica, or just about an other artist in Prog Related.

This has been mentioned a lot of times even by Administrators in several threads, if a long time active band has not been added here or any other PROG place, most likely it's not Prog or Related..

And about the bands you mention, all are recognized in more than one Prog site appart from our's, that's an indication.

J-Man wrote:

That draws back to my point about Encyclopedia Metallium's classification of Helloween. Helloween is NOT prog, so Encyclopedia Metallium should not site them that way. Their main focus is NOT progressive music, so they aren't going to mention prog-related or not on all of the bands. This pretty much shows lack of knowledge about how that website works, because if you look up ANY metal band classified as "pog-related" on our site, it will be classified as power metal, speed metal, thrash metal, etc. Not prog-related metal. If a band is not prog metal, they shouldn't be called that.

You make a point here, but still we have all the other read lights.

J-Man wrote:

While I was not aware about the fact that we consider other website's opinions, this is only to determine "controversial" band additions, not determine the entire thing in general. And keep in mind, if Progressiveears and all the other websites thought this way, no bands would ever get added! One of these websites will add a band first, so why not us?

Because we are focussing in doubious Prog Related bands rather than in real Prog bands, we need some standard, but at the end, Adms will decide.

J-Man wrote:

By the way, Wikipedia states some of their albums as prog rock or prog metal here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chameleon_%28album%29 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chameleon_(album)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeper_of_the_Seven_Keys,_Pt._1 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeper_of_the_Seven_Keys,_Pt._1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeper_of_the_Seven_Keys:_The_Legacy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeper_of_the_Seven_Keys:_The_Legacy

So, you object Metal Archives, you object all the Prog sites,,,,But you trust Wikipedia?

J-Man wrote:

If you don't think they belong here, fine. I'm not sure that I even do myself. But this isn't an irrelevant discussion at all.

I believe Prog Related bands should fall by their own weight and be obvious fopr the vast majority, otherwise, we are focussing too much in this bands that are not relevant for Prog.

Iván

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 20:42

BTW: Helloween has not only been discussed twice, since 2005 it has been mentioned repeatedly and never added.

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1 - Suggest New Bands and Artists
	http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48871&KW=helloween - This year's - Helloween thread By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=21821 - paganinio , October 31 2009 at 05:26	19	163	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=318 - Ivan_Melgar_M Today at 20:35 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=62480&KW=Helloween">
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=41 - General Music Discussions
	http://www.blood%20%20href= - - Helloween confirmed for Bloodstock open air 2008! By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=18000 - bloodstock , January 22 2008 at 09:17	15	1118	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=18000 - bloodstock July 10 2008 at 06:50 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=45554&KW=Helloween">
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1 - Suggest New Bands and Artists
	http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48871&KW=helloween - - Helloween (half-serious) By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2461 - stonebeard , May 23 2008 at 15:31	13	205	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2258 - Tuzvihar May 24 2008 at 17:09 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=48871&KW=Helloween">
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=41 - General Music Discussions
	http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47629&KW=Helloween - - Helloween Poll By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=11816 - Modrigue , April 04 2008 at 14:27	2	66	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10657 - The T April 04 2008 at 17:03 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=47629&KW=Helloween">
	http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33903&KW=Helloween - - Helloween By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=11576 - kazansky , January 31 2007 at 23:31 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33903&KW=Helloween&PN=1 - 1 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33903&KW=Helloween&PN=2 - 2	27	484	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=16810 - RKS1987 November 16 2007 at 06:52 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=33903&KW=Helloween">
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1 - Suggest New Bands and Artists
	http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43368&KW=Helloween - - Helloween? By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=10195 - King By-Tor , November 10 2007 at 12:50	5	165	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=123 - Easy Livin November 10 2007 at 17:13 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=43368&KW=Helloween">
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=41 - General Music Discussions
	http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13109&KW=Helloween - - Helloween By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=2529 - HeirToRuin , October 15 2005 at 11:10	1	131	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7447 - Gorgar March 25 2006 at 07:47 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=13109&KW=Helloween">
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=53 - Artists/Bands under evaluation
	http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12497&KW=Helloween - - helloween 10/3/2005 By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=387 - Garion81 , October 03 2005 at 20:40	16	121	By http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=387 - Garion81 October 05 2005 at 15:18 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=12497&KW=Helloween">

I know not all of this links are suggestions, but I believe the issue has been discussed vastly.

Iván

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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 20:49

I have a more pressing question.

Is it "HELL-o-ween," like a 12-year-old making "Halloween" slightly more profane by changing a vowel? Or is it "Hello-ween," like someone is wishing his schlong a good day?

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https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays

Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 20:49

stonebeard wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

some oif this sites have added Grabnd Funk Railroad as a prog Metal band....but not Helloween.

Oh...well then we can therefore disregard anything they have to say about Prog Metal.

Yep, though Heavy Metal was a pretty progressive animated film and they did have a track in that: "Queen Bee". I preferred the magazine.

The T wrote:

^Sea of tranquility just reviewed the last Marduk album... while a decent norsecore black metal album, it has 0.0000% progressiveness .... That website is the least effective reference....

But was it reviewed as a prog metal album? Like I said, they don't only cover Prog, nor does PA for that matter. From the description I gave it's said to be a "Web zine with news and reviews of heavy metal, progressive metal, and progressive rock."

Anyway, as you say, it's up to the admins to decide if they think it fits the Prog Related parameters sufficiently (I never did get a handle on the Prog Related category). Incidentally, I've wondered if Prog Related is a strictly non-prog category, as some people say, if anything having any Prog merits should be allowed there. ;)

Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 21:13

^^^^ Was it ever evaluated by the admin team? Did the admin respond in those threads? I haven't read them. As we know, there is a formal, and commonly very laborious, process when it comes to that which is not the same as with other teams. Suggesting and discussing is not usually enough. It usually entails a formal proposal and full support by a "staff" member usually, for instance, before it would even be considered for evaluation down the road. Even with collab support and good arguments it's commonly a very lengthy process before a decision might be reached.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 22:03

Well, just to end, we must go to the Prog Related parameters:

Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:

- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, AND

- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, AND

- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.

1.- Received Prog influences?: I believe proobably, many bands received Prog influence

2.- Are widely accepted as influencial to the development oif Pr9og?: No way, that's more than evident.

3.- Are close to Prog Rock?: I don't believe, I liked Walls of Jericho and Keeper of the Seven Keys, but never found any Prog relation..

But the Adms will decide.

Iván

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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 22:14

Anyone who says that The Legacy is not a progressive metal album is purely insane.

Purely.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 22:31

King By-Tor wrote:

Anyone who says that The Legacy is not a progressive metal album is purely insane.

Purely.

Then why doesn't Prog Metal Team adds them?

Are all of them insane?

Iván

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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 23:54

Obviously.

Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 04 2009 at 11:12

^I am insane. Though no psychiatrist has ever confirmed it..

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 04 2009 at 11:19

The T wrote:

^I am insane. Though no psychiatrist has ever confirmed it..

I'm sure we all are insane in some degree.......Normal people is boring.

Iván

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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: November 04 2009 at 14:12

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

King By-Tor wrote:

Anyone who says that The Legacy is not a progressive metal album is purely insane.

Purely.

Then why doesn't Prog Metal Team adds them?

Are all of them insane?

Iván

Of course. Tongue

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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: November 09 2009 at 15:49

Bump.

Any news of evaluation from the admin group?

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Posted By: yaylitambur
Date Posted: December 01 2009 at 08:26

I really didn't want my first post to be on an "isn't this prog?" thread, but I couldn't resist this post by the King. Below the quote are 100% my personal opinions based on my personal listening experience. If you get the feeling that I'm talking big, that's only because I'm talking to myself. None of the below are rules or anything like that whatsoever, and absolutely no offense intended. I've just tried to draw a prog-related picture of Helloween as I see it.
Just FYI, so that you will know what I mean when I say something vague: The ideal type of a progressive band in my own little prog world is Van der Graaf Generator, and naturally the one feature I value the most in any progressive effort is sincerity.

King By-Tor wrote:

Anyone who says that The Legacy is not a progressive metal album is purely insane.

I could have agreed, had the album been purely the king for a thousand years. Helloween is one of my all time favourite bands, and of course I too get some proggy feel from them every now and then. And as for the Legacy album, they've come as close as they can to prog. But even in that album, and actually in the entire catalog of Helloween, only one song, "The King for a 1000 Years" qualifies as progressive. Being in total denial of the genre called prog-metal and detesting each and every band named therein, I even think that that one song is the one and only progressive metal song ever made--though nothing magnificent.

Still, that doesn't make Helloween a prog or even related band. Early Helloween seems to have tried hard to give progressive output, as evident in the "epic" shots in the Keeper duo. But both "Keeper of the Seven Keys" and "Halloween" were...well...lame. Both songs had proggy moments, but overall both were overlong, poorly composed mixtures of various melodies and rhythms that didn't really blend at all. And other than those two wannabe-prog epic failures, nothing in pre-2005 Helloween connects them to progressive rock, save for hints of prog influences here and there.

Since Deris came, it appeared that the band gave up trying (posing?) to be prog and rather focused on making better and more serious power metal, which in turn brought them closer to prog with every new album: better thought-of compositions, only slightly complex but pretty solid song structures, meaningful lyrics in effort to deal with significant issues, etc. However, since we came to see their latest output "Gambling with the Devil", it has appeared that the Legacy was the best that they can ever get: One progressive metal song in 13 (I don't see "Occasion Avenue" as another epic failure--indeed I revealed to last.fm that I loved the song, but it's not much prog either, at least nothing in comparison to the K4a1000Y, so it doesn't count for me).

On the other hand, of course, there is this weak probability that the next album by Helloween will feature several progressive songs and good non-prog power metal songs with numerous proggy moments. In that case, I suppose the admins too will start considering them as prog-related. And I truly wish for it, for I feel that the band has the potential to go prog but somehow always get stuck midway.

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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 01 2009 at 11:29

yaylitambur wrote:

I really didn't want my first post to be on an "isn't this prog?" thread, but I couldn't resist this post by the King. Below the quote are 100% my personal opinions based on my personal listening experience. If you get the feeling that I'm talking big, that's only because I'm talking to myself. None of the below are rules or anything like that whatsoever, and absolutely no offense intended. I've just tried to draw a prog-related picture of Helloween as I see it.
Just FYI, so that you will know what I mean when I say something vague: The ideal type of a progressive band in my own little prog world is Van der Graaf Generator, and naturally the one feature I value the most in any progressive effort is sincerity.

King By-Tor wrote:

Anyone who says that The Legacy is not a progressive metal album is purely insane.

A very good first post. Welcome.

Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: December 01 2009 at 13:53

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Have checked several Prog sites

Progressive Ears (Not included)
GEPR (Not included)
Proggnosis (Not included)
Progressor (Not included)

Please, aren't we insisting too much when all the people who REALLY know about them makes no Prog connection?

Iván

You're actually wrong on Progressive Ears:

http://www.progressiveears.com/asp/artistdir.asp?country=Germany"> Germany

Helloween
http://www.progressiveears.com/asp/artistdir.asp?genre=128"> Prog-Metal

From what I know of the band they are power metal through and through, so based on my knowledge I'd say they should not be in here.

Still, interesting to see Prog Ears have them listed as prog metal.

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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: December 01 2009 at 15:17

^^ While browsing through Progressive Ears, I found they also have Children of Bodom and Dragonforce listed as prog metal, which I think is much more liberal than how we add bands on ProgArchives. They are first and foremost a power metal band, and that is why I think it would be absurd for the metal team (including myself) to even bother evaluating them. I think Keeper of the Seven Keys Pt. 1, Keeper of the Seven Keys Pt. 2, Keeper of The Seven Keys: The Legacy, Chameleon, and The Time of The Oath are certainly enough to qualify Helloween as Prog-Related, however.

I think they have a similar case as Iron Maiden. They had some very progressive leanings in their music and their influence on prog metal is huge, but they aren't 100% progressive. I think Helloween is often incorrectly grouped with "those '80's hair metal bands". I personally think they are much more than that, but it's not my decision.

-Jeff

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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: December 01 2009 at 19:02

Also interesting. Vitaly Menshikov, who runs the Progressor site, is of the opinion that 2, arguably 3, of Helloween's albums can be classified as prog metal. With "Keeper of the Seven Keys Part II" as the best among those.

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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: December 03 2009 at 15:01

Windhawk wrote:

Also interesting. Vitaly Menshikov, who runs the Progressor site, is of the opinion that 2, arguably 3, of Helloween's albums can be classified as prog metal. With "Keeper of the Seven Keys Part II" as the best among those.

I believe all of the "Keeper" albums can be classified as semi-progressive power metal. I personally think they belong here as much as Queensryche, Savatage, Iron Maiden, Metallica, etc. I think Keeper Pt. II is actually almost full-blown prog metal. I do not think they would fit in anywhere other than prog related though.

The requirements for prog related are:

- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, AND

I fully believe Helloween has received prog & classical influence, as evident by their extended and unusual song structures, lyrical content, and their overall progressive take on the power metal genre.

- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, AND

I really don't think you can deny the influence of Helloween on progressive metal. I'm sure progressive power metal bands such as Symphony X and Blind Guardian would site Helloween as an influence.

- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.

I think Helloween fits this description very well. They are not full blown prog-metal IMO (though people would say they ARE prog metal), but the influence is surely there. I think the 8+ minute epics and not typical verse-choruse-verse song structure makes them fit this quite well.

I think Helloween's influence on Progressive Metal, progressive song structures, and intelligent lyrics warrant an addition into Prog Related.

-Jeff

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 04 2009 at 10:20

Windhawk wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Have checked several Prog sites
1. Progressive Ears (Not included)
2. GEPR (Not included)
3. Proggnosis (Not included)
4. Progressor (Not included)

Please, aren't we insisting too much when all the people who REALLY know about them makes no Prog connection?

Iván

You're actually wrong on Progressive Ears:

http://www.progressiveears.com/asp/artistdir.asp?country=Germany"> Germany

Helloween
http://www.progressiveears.com/asp/artistdir.asp?genre=128"> Prog-Metal

Helloween has just been added to Progressiveears, I verified before posting, but any way, they have William Shatner.

It's a great place but has some things I don't agree with.

Iván

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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: December 04 2009 at 11:09

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Helloween has just been added to Progressiveears, I verified before posting, but any way, they have William Shatner.

It's a great place but has some things I don't agree with.

Iván

Helloween were added to their artist directory in February 2008, when I reviewed a Helloween CD for them. Check with Flloyd of you like ;-)

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 04 2009 at 13:19

Windhawk wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Helloween has just been added to Progressiveears, I verified before posting, but any way, they have William Shatner.

It's a great place but has some things I don't agree with.

Iván

Helloween were added to their artist directory in February 2008, when I reviewed a Helloween CD for them. Check with Flloyd of you like ;-)

OK, my mistake, but only the same site who has added Jerry Lee Lewis and William Shatner as Prog, has them as Prog.

Iván

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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: December 04 2009 at 13:24

Ok Ivan, so when is Progressiveears a valid reference? Only when they match your musical beliefs? You seem to have mentioned them as reference first.... Now you discredit them....

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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: December 04 2009 at 13:33

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

OK, my mistake, but only the same site who has added Jerry Lee Lewis and William Shatner as Prog, has them as Prog.

Iván

hehe - guess you recognize the sweet feeling you get when you encounter someone coming forward with statements you know aren't factual, eh ;-)

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 04 2009 at 13:46

Windhawk wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

OK, my mistake, but only the same site who has added Jerry Lee Lewis and William Shatner as Prog, has them as Prog.

Iván

hehe - guess you recognize the sweet feeling you get when you encounter someone coming forward with statements you know aren't factual, eh ;-)

Point for you Olav , but no problem, Atahualpa, the last Inca said before being killed "Usos de la guerra son vencer y ser vencidos" (Consequences of a war are to defeat or be defeated) and this is not a war, it's only a search for precedents to the addition of a band.

BTW T: I agree, PE is a good reference for some things they have very god reiews (I wrote some

), but they have a problem, tthey don't explain why a band is added, so we can only guess why and some additions are almost a joke.

This doesn't change the fact that, only one of the biggest sites Helloween is added.

Iván

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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: December 04 2009 at 14:46

The T wrote:

Ok Ivan, so when is Progressiveears a valid reference? Only when they match your musical beliefs? You seem to have mentioned them as reference first.... Now you discredit them....

I think that's why we shouldn't ever use other progressive rock sites to help our decision in adding bands. We should base our decision on our own opinions, not what other sites think. Here's a couple key reasons why I believe this:

Other sites may be thinking the same thing. Let's say the ProgressoR collaborators are considering Helloween. One of the reasons why they're holding back on adding them is because "ProgArchives doesn't have them". If all websites thought like this NO PROG RELATED BANDS WOULD EVER GET ADDED! I think this is a good example of just "going with the flow".
I think this is a pretty unfair way of decision making. Basing our decision on another site's opinion is not very fair if you ask me. As evident by the discussion about ProgressiveEars, not all sites are very reliable. They have some bands in their archives that would NEVER be on PA. Should we add Cannibal Corpse because they're on ProgressiveEars?
Lastly, I think it works different when adding ProgRelated bands. Helloween is NOT widely regarded as progressive rock, and many websites would not add them because of that. We're talking about a Prog-Related addition here. I think all websites have different definitions of "what's Prog Related and what's not"

Ultimately, I think we should NEVER base our opinions on other sites. Some websites are more liberal than us, and some ar more conservative. We need to find the happy medium, and make our own valid opinion.

-Jeff

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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: December 04 2009 at 14:55

J-Man wrote:

Ultimately, I think we should NEVER base our opinions on other sites. Some websites are more liberal than us, and some ar more conservative. We need to find the happy medium, and make our own valid opinion.

-Jeff

Clappies for this one :-)

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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: December 04 2009 at 17:56

Windhawk wrote:

Clappies for this one :-)

Thanks Olav Smile

Any other comments on this topic?

-Jeff

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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 04 2009 at 20:51

You do realize that by titling this thread "This year's Helloween thread" that you will not be able to start a new one up next year with the same title...

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 04 2009 at 23:43

Jeff I don't make the rules here:

Easy Livin wrote:

Bands and artists will be considered potentially controversial if they:

Are not generally listed by other prog sites* AND/OR
They have been rejected in the past on the basis of their prog credentials OR
Are flagged up by the team concerned as being potentially controversial OR
Are flagged up by the admin team as controversial

* The requirement is that at least 2 other sites dedicated to prog have identified the band/artists as being prog. New bands are excluded from this requirement.

In this case any team that wants to add a controversial band, must do it with the positive vote of eeach and every member, so for the Administrators the recognition of the band as Prog by otgher sites has oimportance. (Not in the case of Prog Related or Proto Prog)

We don't base our opinion in other sites, we use them as a reference, because we don't own the holy truth, we must also check other opinions.

And I agree, not because we must copy other sites, but because if a band that is in the market for a long time, is not recognized at least by two other major Prog sites, most surely is not Prog.

Iván

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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: December 05 2009 at 03:41

It's been clear for quite a long time in this thread that Helloween doesn't have the full support of the prog metal team for inclusion there, so there's no point in debating that part any longer, is it?

I do give my support for them as a prog related act though. They have been influential, and they have enough progressive elements in their output for one major site to regard them as progressive. And I can document that the person who runs one of the other major sites regards them as progressive too. As far as I can tell, that would be pretty good arguments for an inclusion as prog-related in itself :-)

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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: December 05 2009 at 09:00

Alright, 3 pages of arguments really isn't going to do anything, and it's not going to prevent or help Helloween's inclusion into PA. Can an admin look into this and consider evaluation? To the best of my knowledge, they have never been "properly" evaluated for Prog Related.

-Jeff

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