Megadeth - Prog Related
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=60319
Printed Date: December 01 2024 at 22:50
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Megadeth - Prog Related
Posted By: paragraph7
Subject: Megadeth - Prog Related
Date Posted: August 10 2009 at 15:54
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I was wondering why there is Metallica to be found in the Prog related sub-genre, but not their rivlas Megadeth with Dave Mustaine as front man. I actually moved to prog after listening to very much speed and thrash metal and can say that Megadeth is much more proggier than Metallica, even if it's not prog entirely. If you don't believe me listen to tracks like: My Last Words, In My Darkest Hour or Holy Wars.. Punishment Due. The latter is actually two songs in one, with the same concept but different solo passages and melodies, which in my opinion is very prog related. Don't get me wrong, Megadeth isn't real prog, but much more prog related than Metallica in my opinion.
------------- What you cannot speak of, you have to pass on in silence. |
Replies:
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: August 10 2009 at 16:00
------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Stooge
Date Posted: August 10 2009 at 16:13
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I don't know. If Megadeth get in, people will argue why isn't Testament in, why isn't (slightly-progressive thrash band) in. A very touchy area. I think some bands similar in style like Nevermore have been rejected already. But, then again, prog-related isn't prog, so either way I guess. |
Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: August 10 2009 at 16:15
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Megadeth started as a bay area thrash act then had RIP a great heavy tech achievement and then a heavy metal band... but then again so did Metallica..  ------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: TheSubhuman
Date Posted: August 10 2009 at 16:35
And what about the many, many PROG bands who would need this site's support, and are kept out by people who seem to worry about adding as many prog-related bands as they can think of? Do any of you realize that other prog sites have already added and reviewed those bands, while on the 'ultimate prog source' people are tearing each other apart over The Stranglers, Angel, Megadeth, and even Dragonforce ?
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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: August 10 2009 at 16:42
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With the addition of Metallica I think Megadeth definitely belong here.Rust in Peace is a classic and is just as "proto-proggy" as Master of Puppets and And Justice For All. -------------  |
Posted By: AmericanProgster
Date Posted: August 10 2009 at 16:43
^^  Agreed!
------------- https://dawnapproach.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - https://dawnapproach.bandcamp.com/ https://soundcloud.com/dawn-approach" rel="nofollow - https://soundcloud.com/dawn-approach |
Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: August 10 2009 at 16:58
Indeed! Both Megadeth and Metallica had their progressive moments, but overall i think Megadeth is more interesting. |
TheProgtologist wrote:Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: August 10 2009 at 17:07
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This is going to get niiiice and bloody *prepares a splatter tarp* |
Posted By: Alberto Muņoz
Date Posted: August 10 2009 at 17:11
Seconded   -------------  |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: August 10 2009 at 21:43
Which prog bands? What are you doing about them?
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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: August 10 2009 at 22:12
I always preferred Megadeth over Metallica.I think as far as technicality and superior muscianship are concerned,Metallica loses the battle.
**Getting ready for the flames** ------------- |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: August 10 2009 at 22:21
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I tend to think of the early music of bands like Iron Maiden,Metallica,Megadeth etc. more like Proto Prog Metal than Prog Related.But that's just me.
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 00:46
. Donīt worry I wonīt flame you Jody. Personally Iīm a bit unsure on the subject. I lean towards a no. But then again I wasnīt supportive of the decision to add Metallica either ( I love to have the opportunity to review their albums though). |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 01:29
Agreed. While I still think that Master of Puppets was much more important/influential for Prog Metal than Rust in Peace, I think that they should be here - if only for the sake of completion. I don't think that we should add all metal bands that got a bit more technical in the 80s ... but the most important ones in relation to Prog Metal, and IMO Megadeth are easily in the top 5. BTW: It's not too late to create a "Proto Prog Metal" category ...  ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 02:48
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Agreed. I think that they quite definitively belong here.
Even without any comparrisons to Maiden or Metallice. I would even go so far as to say that I would be happy with a PA without those two, but Megadeth should be included on its own merits.
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 03:02
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As an outside observer (I don't care at all about the suggestion, or the music we're talking about), I can only say: Wow! That "don't suggest Y just because X is here" rule sure works. At full capacity.
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 03:09
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Hm, OK.
Not ever having heard of any bands called Iron Maiden or Metallica, I'd like to see Megadeth included
here.
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 06:16
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Eh, I'll put in my 2 cents, since you guys are probably expecting me too anyway (at least the longer term members that know me, heh). Megadeth has what it takes to be put under a "Proto Prog Metal" category if it ever existed, but we know that isn't happening any time soo. Megadeth has been massively influential on prog metal and dare I say to it's development. Better musicianship? Easily. When Kirk Hammett is in your band, you lose about 1000 musicianship points. Sorry Kirk, but your solos are disgustingly sh*t for the most part. No sense of rhythm, horribly phrasing most of the time, some really horrible note choice at times and the worst vibrato in heavy metal lead guitar, period. Even Dave Mustaine actually has decent vibrato, although I don't think he's a great soloist anyway. Megadeth had Marty Friedman, Chris Poland and now Chris Broderick, Metallica were not going to be able to compete with that lead guitar wise, those guys are leagues ahead of Kirk. Riff wise, I learnt my thrash metal chops playing both Metallica and Megadeth. The Megadeth riffs were harder to play on average, easily. So in terms of technicality, it's easy Megadeth is way ahead. Composition? Sorry guys, but I gotta hand it to Metallica for being more instrumental in the development of progressive metal composition. Metallica had 3 albums, to my mind, that feature material that shows clear links to the development of prog metal. I just don't think Megadeth's material is proggy enough to make the cut, even if it is better to listen to for me personally. Megadeth only had one in terms of the composition side of things, that being Rust In Peace and even then less than half the songs are really prog related-metal songs. In My Darkest Hour and Tornado of Souls always struck me as the two most defining "prog metal" pieces from Megadeth. The way the riffs develop are done in a prog metal style to me. ------------- 
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Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 06:32
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I know Megadeth by heart since 1991, is a band that I grow up with, have all the albums, but prog related, not even close. Why??, because at least their first 5 albums have nothing to to with prog, even at some point the pieces are quite complex as one Rust in peace. From Youthanasia their try to sound more polished but again not prog, and so one with the rest of the albums. MY answer is no, because they are not prog related.
Stooge said quite exactly, if is Megadeth why not Testament (10 times more prog than Megadeth, just listen to Practice what you preach or Souls of black), the rest of the techno thrash bands who emerged in that period, each one has prog elements and can feature here, but that's another problem. I said no to Megadeth in PA, out of PA all the respect for the band.
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 08:18
| Yeah I was thinking about Practice What You Preach as well when someone mentioned Testament. That one could easily be called prog-related as well ( and just for the record I donīt think Testament belong on PA). Thereīs the danger right there. |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 10:32
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A big yes for Megadeth. I consider some of their albums to actually be full-blown prog metal, but that's a different argument.
------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Stooge
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 17:12
| The thing is, Rust In Peace is the only album of theirs that I would consider to be close to progressive metal, whereas Metallica had 2 full blown proggy albums (Puppets and Justice). Ride The Lighting is debatable. The remainder of Megadeth's discography is either thrash metal (The first 3 and most recent albums) or mainstream metal (Countdown, Youthanasia, Cryptic, Risk). I'm really not certain that this is enough for inclusion. |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 17:32
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^^ I agree Rust In Peace is their most progressive album, but the other ones still have a relation. It's pretty much like Rust In Peace is full-blown prog, and the other ones are less by comparison, but they still at least have a relation to prog in some way, shape, or form. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: paragraph7
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 17:54
Im terribly sorry if i broke the rules, but actually, i never suggested Y because X was here, i just wondered why Y isn't here when X is. I still gave a few song examples of Y and why they could be here. This was my main argument, not the fact that X is here and Y is not. I'll promise to read the rules better next time! ------------- What you cannot speak of, you have to pass on in silence. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 18:01
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as I've said... and been ignored..... but had proven time and time again. If x than y... IS a reason for band inclusion... and one that though people may deny it... is used all the time. why? because it's RIGHT to do. When you have a category 'related to prog' is a measurement .. of some quotient or relation to prog. If a band establishes a certain 'benchmark'.. how can you reject others that exceed that... easy... either you do add them.. .or you do what has been done.. conveniently ignore it and just reject for the hell of it. case in point... The Stranglers.... just like Zeppelin.. a group not associated with prog.. that was STRONGLY influenced by it. Yet still rejected... why do you think the site and it's additions are mocked in some quarters. That has been an eyeopener for me this summer getting out and meeting prog fans at shows.. and being told in no uncertain terms why they want nothing to do with this site. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 18:20
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You're certainly contradictorial, Micky. Where has the old "each band with its own merits" support (one you definitely had in the past) gone? The only reason for which "x than y" should be left aside is not because it doesn't make sense, but because it can lead to shallow evaluations and perspective. The list of influences or even tinier measures of connection between musical bands could thus serve to pointless "this band is here; 100 others should also be". I have no objections if Megadeth, as you say, actually exceed the "benchmark" allegedly established by Metallica. But "now that Metallica's here, let's add ..." kind of statements are better not endorsed. That's all, from my point of view, the one I simply mentioned earlier. -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 18:23
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oh no Vic.. .not contradictory at all.... each band is supposedly evaluated ON it's merits... where "if x then y' comes in is when y> x when x has been added to the site..... that is the true meaning if x then y... we aren't talking 'names' as I suppose some do.... but a progressive quotient in which each band is evaluated on it's merits then compared to what has been added. These are not fully prog evaluations.. 'are they prog or are they not' with no regard to other groups. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Alberto Muņoz
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 18:33
Ha, you write almost in a Moshkito-ish way
.and i like your Magnum photo as well
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 18:36
shame my Battiato avatar never got these kinds of comments and PM's  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 18:57
Oh come on, spill your guts. You can't drop a teaser like that last sentence and not follow up!!! ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 19:06
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no teaser... I talked to people.. they told me what they thought of the site. What's to follow up.... you can ignore it... or address why people feel that way. Either way... I've honestly moved past caring. I don't sense any desire to improve the site... I spent years butting my head against the wall to improve additions procedure here. Now Raff gets albums to review for the site she collaborates with. .great prog stuff... and it isn't here. I checked.. some even had threads here.. and weren't rejected... just were never evaluated... yeah.. go ahead and argue and waste time with Megadeth.... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: ProgShine
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 19:49
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Nahhh, like others that souldn't be here, and others that should be
------------- https://progshinerecords.bandcamp.com 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 21:30
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Megadeth does not belong here in my opinion. Rust in Peace is extremley technical thrash, but as far as structures and progressive writing, it's nothing like Metallica. It may be more technical, but is definitely less progressive., or not at all. IMO
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Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 21:36
I know that totally bugs the crap out of me how many actual prog bands go by the wayside, but every time Journey, Metallica, or the Allman Brothers get brought up, this place becomes like an ambulance to get them added. -------------
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Posted By: tintedweed
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 22:08
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Good one.... I dont think either Metallica or Megadeth belong here. They are both technically strong metal bands and any technical band will explore other interesting avenues and push boundaries, that will undoubtedly have prog resemblence. But to be labelled as prog is probably not accurate...
Or else have both of them here... There is no doubt that Megadeth pushes technical limits with long and some odd signature songs..... (just as early Metallica did) nuf...
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Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: August 11 2009 at 23:40
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Not really big on Megadeth, but I've heard enough of them that I feel that I can throw in an opinion. It's true that they are a huge influence on all metal and almost all of their output has a consistently good quality. However, as far as prog metal goes their only relation is the metal half.
When compared to Metallica they are clearly not as proggy. While Metallica made lengthy tracks with long introes and developing riffs that helped build the song as well as lots of lengthy solo sections with interesting structures (not in terms of the actual soloes, but in terms of the music behind them), Megadeth was more about using a riff and repeating it in a basic song structure, however great a song it may be. One proggy thing Megadeth did do often was change the tempo on a dime, something unconventional even in lots of prog music (changing time signatures is common, changing tempo is something else). Other than that Megadeth didn't have any prog elements IMO (maybe the concept album things, at least I think Countdown to Extinction is a concept album. Not entirely sure). ------------- 
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: August 12 2009 at 01:28
There is a little website with strong ties to PA, where you can rate and review any (prog) album you like ... ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: August 12 2009 at 11:32
| Yes, but no, but yes, but no. |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: August 12 2009 at 16:24
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Megadeth is a thrash metal band. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: August 12 2009 at 19:59
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I actually think Megadeth is more proggy than metallica. That's my 2 cents. ------------- |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 12 2009 at 22:23
I agree with this. One of the best ones. Very technical in RIP. But not prog. A different case from Metallica. -------------
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Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: August 17 2009 at 10:26
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I think "Rust in Peace" in itself is enough to merit an inclusion of Megadeth into the PA. ------------- This user has left the PA fora, but will occasionally post reviews so as to support artists. |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: August 17 2009 at 10:42
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I am a big Megadeth fan, but nothing they did approaches the degree of progginess of the song "And Justice for All." And frankly I don't think Metallica should be here either.
BTW, I think Mustaines soloing is great. It fits the music very well, though his bag of tricks isn't all that deep. Chris Poland plays circles around him (In Dave's own words) but really fits the setting he's in now better than it ever did in Megadeth. I was so excited when Marty Friedman joined and never got the payoff I anticipated. The only thing of his I liked was the acoustic interlude for Holy Wars and I read somewhere that everything on that song was imitations of scratch solos Poland had done.
Anyway, big vote NO. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: tintedweed
Date Posted: August 17 2009 at 11:07
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Mustaine has had some awesome guitar players all through - Poland, Friedman, Al Pitrelli and himself... In contrast, who do we have in Metallica.. |
Posted By: Fieldofsorrow
Date Posted: August 17 2009 at 12:03
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I'd like to see Megadeth here. Since Mustaine started off in Metallica, some of his original work was used by them in 'Kill 'Em All'. Megadeth have tempo changes, at least one instance of odd time, lengthy songs, and harmonically intricate riffs (not just to a technical extent). I believe them to have a place in the prog related section, as they aided the progression of metal.
------------- Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 17 2009 at 12:21
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Not that aiding the progression of metal is your sole reason for thinking that the band would be suitable for PR, but taking that statement alone would not be enough for inclusion -- imagine if we opened up the archives to all those bands that aided the progression of rock. PR and PP doesn't work that way, but I've long felt that the music should speak for itself (the obvious problem being that music speaks differently to other people, which partially depends on knowledge and exposure). I'm not knowledgeable enough about metal (progressive or otherwise) to hold much of an opinion on this band. Off-topic, but I wonder if, for instance, the Holy Modal Rounders should be included in PP due to their influence on psych/folk?
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Fieldofsorrow
Date Posted: August 17 2009 at 12:45
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Well, ok, it would be no great loss if Megadeth weren't here, and perhaps the principal of not adding bands just because of the attributes already outlined, would be upheld better and save other artists who don't belong here from becoming an unnecessary part of PA. It depends really on what actually makes a band qualify for this site, and if development isn't solely what this is about, then fair enough. ------------- Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 17 2009 at 17:39
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Metallica, of the big four of the thrash era, is the only one who directly influenced prog-metal and they actually recorded three prog-metal albums. But if we add Megadeth, then let's start with Slayer, then Anthrax, then by connection let's go with Testament... eventually we'll have added every metal band ever.... -------------
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 01:45
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^ with all due respect, I think it's a rather big step from Megadeth to Slayer. Megadeth are technical and innovative, Slayer are almost one-dimensional by comparison. Don't get me wrong, I love albums like Reign in Blood or Seasons in the Abyss. Testament is a slightly different story - they were definitely much more experimental on The Ritual than Slayer ever were, but I still would not call them Prog-Related. The same goes for Anthrax. BTW: I think we should try to avoid confusing technicality/complexity with simply "difficult to play". Most Thrash is difficult to play compared to "normal" metal, that goes without saying. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 01:50
The problem is that those attributes that you outlined *are* why many bands are here ... but it depends on how bands use those attributes. For example, choosing to play a song in 7/8 *can* sometimes help making it more progressive. Sometimes it can also come across as overly technical and uncalled for. In the end for most bands that are on the fringes, whether to call them Non-Prog, Prog-Related or Prog is an intuitive choice, based on your listening experience as well as musical knowledge. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 02:18
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Meh, the odd time signature= element of prog is bullsh*t and superficial IMO. Why this website still uses something as meaningless and exceptionally superficial as a judge of prog rock is honestly well beyond me. When I think of odd time signatures, I can just as easily think of Soundgarden, Alice In Chains, Minus the Bear and Joe Satriani all of which have not much to do with prog rock but have plenty of examples of odd time in their music, as well as a sh*t load of jazz and classical that has barely anything to do with rock music at all, let alone prog. I bet if you rounded up every single song on the database and went through them, a very large amount wouldn't have odd time sigs in them at all. I'm quite pretty much all of Agalloch's discography is based around 4/4 and 6/8, so I guess Jerry Cantrell's debut solo record "Boggy Depot" is by comparison true prog rock because the first very track of the album features a very prominent 7/4 time signature riff right? *rolls eyes*. I don't think it can even "sometimes help" make it more progressive at all. So much of the post rock and post metal stuff is based around 4/4 and 6/8. It's all about the composition and always has been and always will be. Whether or not odd time is involved, it's just kinda there and doesn't add anything to the progressiveness of music. If the composition isn't there, odd time doesn't do squat to increase a compositions prog rock cred, period. -------------
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 03:19
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^ those are all valid points, but the odd time signature is an important part of prog ... like it or not. It's neither mandatory nor is a piece of music automatically prog if it features an odd time signature, but it is one of the recurring elements throughout most prog genres. I'm sure there are even some Post Rock/Metal pieces that are not in 4/4 or 6/8. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Fieldofsorrow
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 10:32
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^^ Precisely. Of course an odd time signature does not instantly allow music to be considered progressive, but many fields of prog have always been complex, and irregular time signatures indisputably add to that level of complexity, even if not in terms of progressiveness. And yes, bands on the 'fringes' are always going to be a source of disagreement, inevitably. But the question is, should these sort of artists be on the website, or is their progressive direction too vague to be included? ------------- Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 14:32
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This whole thread makes me wanting to campaign again for the inclusion of Coroner. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 14:40
I agree with the first paragraph. I was not saying Slayer was more prog-related than Megadeth (though, in a way, I think Reign in Blood was a progression for metal, of a complete different kind...) But if Megadeth were added, I'm sure sooner or later other names of the era would appear...
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 17:44
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Not saying that either should be here, but personally I'd add Exodus sooner than Megadeth. And, though getting into apples and oranges territory, I'd sooner add Judas Priest than either. Incidentally, and irrelevantly, isn't about time that we had a Progressive Hair Metal category? ;) ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 22:49
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^White Lion belongs there... -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 23:18
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RATT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! they were prog for sure
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: August 19 2009 at 00:01
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Might we see the Ratt sig again Micky?
I think we might in the future. ------------- |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: August 19 2009 at 01:36
I think that those artists that keep being suggested again and again by knowledgeable members/collabs should indeed be added - but as prog related. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Fieldofsorrow
Date Posted: August 19 2009 at 02:53
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^ And to that I say, Amen! But I'm also inclined to think that Megadeth will not be added to this site, due to the very reasons that it has been dismissed/ignored previously. I haven't been here long, but it strikes me that the admins and collaborators, or whoever else is in charge, are very strong in their ideals of what should and shouldn't be here, and quite rightly so. Thus, a 'no' once will probably be as final as a 'no' any other time. Unless, of course, we've brought any fresh argument to light? But I suppose it's all been said before... ------------- Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband |
Posted By: Alberto Muņoz
Date Posted: August 19 2009 at 09:14
Looking for you... looking for me...
Round and Round!!! ------------- |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: August 19 2009 at 09:16
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Should be album added just because it's wanted by many and people like it? We shouldn't also rate all albums we like with 5 stars, right ? Both I don't think so. But I must confess that I don't like idea of Metallica here. It took them few years to get here, thru polls and endless posts. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 19 2009 at 13:01
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I also was not keen on Metallica's addition, but partially because an argument being used was that it influenced Prog Metal bands such as DT, whereas I felt that that the Prog in Prog Metal (using DT as an example) owed more to bands such as Yes than Metallica (Metallica being more an influence on metal generally than on the Prog part of the equation). That said, I do think that Metallica showed some Progtitude itself in music, rather than just being progressive. If it was just about being progressive, then we'd include various 50's rock and roll artists for their influence on rock. That said, the parameters for what can be considered Prog is expanding, and with that comes what can be considered Prog-Related and Proto-Prog (though a core criteria of both now is that it must be demonstrated that they influenced Prog -- I had thought that Prog_Related was intended more for those that were influenced by Prog rather than influencing it, but I think that changed). Some wanted Metallica to be in a Proto-Prog Metal category, but to me that didn't make much sense. I'm very inclusive, and don't really mind the addition at all. As long as Prog-Related additions are well-balanced (the various categories related artists are as well and equally represented as makes sense, then I'm happy). ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: August 20 2009 at 04:33
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As much as I'd support introducing Megadeth here, I'd be forced to admit that it's mainly because I really like their albums.
As for whether they're prog or even related, I doubt that even Rust in Peace qualifies.
Metallica was introduced here mainly because they were progressive in what they were doing and not so much in musical style. As Megadeth is mainly a revenge band created to kick Metallica in the nuts with similar (albeit better) music, it's evident that the originality aspect doesn't apply at all. And that leaves no prog credibilty for Megadeth.
That being said, musically I rate Megadeth MUCH higher than Metallica.
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Posted By: sdp
Date Posted: January 21 2010 at 10:13
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I see that metallica are on this site, but can't understand why megadeth are not. After all dave mustaine was once a member of that band. I think that megadeth have more prog leanings than metallica and are as good a band. |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: January 21 2010 at 11:59
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If I'm gonna be br00tally honest (see what I did there), I never thought Metallica deserved to be on the Archives. Yes, OK, they are experimental. But experimental metal does not mean prog metal in any way. Anyone want to refer to one of our subgenres? No. The bands in the Experimental/Post-Metal genre are waaaaaaaaaay waaaaaaaaaaaaaay waaaaaaaaay more experimental than Metallica ever were. I mean look at bands like Devin Townsend, Deadsoul Tribe and Tool... I mean seriously, anyone who says Metallica are experimental to the leagues of Tool is an idiot, and Tool are a through and through progressive band. Good music experiments. It pushes boundaries. But does that make them prog? Faith No More and Dog Fashion Disco push boundaries, but they are not listed on the Archives for good reason: THEY ARE NOT PROG. Being "progressive" is different to being "experimental", they are worlds apart. With bands like Megadeth, I'm going to have to back Harry up on this one: they only have a few songs that I see progressive. Same goes with Metallica for me actually. And if this is the only criteria required for a band to get listed on this site, then I may as well just give up calling prog "prog" and call it "partly progressive rock" instead. It's definitely a resounding NO for me. If Megadeth get in, then we may as well list half of the metal bands in existence as "progressive". Before you know it we'll have Sepultura, Suffocation and Morbid Angel on here and although they are fantastic bands, I find they will struggle to fit in under the same unbrella term as bands like Atheist, Edge Of Sanity and Neurosis. Even firther into it, can you seriously imagine Megadeth fitting into the same genre dedicated site as Genesis, VDGG and FRANK ZAPPA??? ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: January 21 2010 at 12:52
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Last time I checked Metallica were a part of the prog-related part of the archives, and not the experimental metal part of it. Their experimental attitudes, which was just that at the start of their career when compared to their contemporaries, as well as their profound influence on prog artists, was what made their inclusion as a related act. Among the bands openly admitting Metallica as an important influence on their musical escapades are Dream Theater. Dismissing that aspect of their inclusion out of hand as well as drawing comparisons between what they did in the 80's with what other bands did in the 90's is a good example of comparing apples and oranges, unlogical arguments as far as I'm concerned. Kind of like dismissing The Beatles experimental and musical influences by comparing them with Electric Light Orchestra. As far as Megadeth goes, they strike me as a much more technical than progressive outfit as such, and by the time they became well known enough to be highly influential their output had ceased most relations with prog in my opinion. Perhaps reconsidered opinion - I know I have spoken on this topic previously but don't remember what conclusion I drew then *chuckles* ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: GentleGiant
Date Posted: January 21 2010 at 13:23
Megadeth? , ProgArchives ? Are you sure with all that this will be the correct name of the site in the future ? ------------- BeGiantForADay "This British band is just the cup of tea for aficionados who demand virtuosity,progress and originality in their mix." http://rateyourmusic.com/~GentleG |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: January 21 2010 at 13:36
I'm OK with arguments but this one seems so out of place... Tool can't be compared with Metallica because without Metallica is not likely that Tool even exists... and the experimentation of Tool is accurate to their time while Metallica change the face of rock in the 80's. Tool is only a band with good music but can't be put on the side of the most significant bands of the past or that have influenced another bands in a progressive way...
Well... Megadeth are way more technical than Metallica and they have influenced almost the same bands than Metallica... I'm OK with them... as prog-related...
and your last phrase... can you imagine a place in which Radiohead is in the same site as Dream Theater or Metallica...???!!! yes... progarchives.com...!!! ------------- |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 21 2010 at 17:11
You know, Olav, I believe you (and all of us) should start considering saving our breath on this issue. At this point, I am quite convinced that people ignore the 'related' part of 'prog-related' on purpose. I've tried to explain over and over again that other sites or publications are far more open than we are (there is a review of a techno album on Progression Magazine, and new age stuff is featured on quite a few sites - to name but two genres), but no one even bothered taking notice. This means that either people don't understand because they are not intelligent enough (which I don't believe it's the case), or they just don't WANT to understand. Back to the issue at hand, I share your opinion that Megadeth are more technical than progressive. Unfortunately, many people here seem not to be able to see beyond the old, tired 'if X is here, why not Y?" shtick. |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: January 21 2010 at 18:11
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Olav: About the whole related thing, Edge of Sanity are highly influenced (this needs no citation really as you can hear it) by Morbid Angel. Hell yeah man, Morbid Angel should be prog-related I'd have thought you, a collab, of all people should know it doesn't quite work like that. Cephalic Carnage (progressive grindcore band listed on the Archives) are influenced by Napalm Death and Carcass. Should we add those two to the archives as well? The reason I bring experimentation into the equation also is that Metallica aren't really progressive, or what I see as progressive anyway. They are EXPERIMENTAL, because they took Thrash to new heights. Doesn't make them progressive though really. Aphex Twin took Dance music to new heights, yet they have been turned down by progressive electronic (and for good reason too: THEY ARE NOT PROG. (or related for that matter). Agreement on Megadeth though  jampa17: Tool would have existed without Metallica. Metallica are not the only metal band before Tool. Why can't I compare them? They are both metal. They are on the same site. Once again, like I said with Olav, Metallica are Prog-Related. They are there because they had an influence on Tool. However no more influence than say Sepultura and Slayer. Or even as far back as Indian classical music. By these rights should we include composers recordings such as Ustad Vilayat Kha? No. In fact, any respectful artist in music takes influence from a MYRIAD of others, from Bach to Miles Davis to Venetian Snares. If we go by the notion of "Metallica are in Prog-Related because they influenced Dream Theater", then I'm afraid to be fair, you'll have to completely clog up the entirety of Prog-Related with EVERY SINGLE MUSICIAN TO EVER LIVE. Technical DOESN'T = Prog or Prog-Related. Yes I can. Because Radiohead are prog. Dream Theater are prog. Metallica are not. Raff: I do know what prog-related is, I have been here for a few years now I just think we should be stricter about it, because of my reasons given above. I hate to go against the whole site, but this is really getting out of hand now. Next it'll be Judas Priest, then Megadeth, then Status Quo, then The Rolling Stones, then Ray Charles, then Stevie Wonder, then The Red Hot Chili Peppers (because they have done an 8 minute song and use 5/4 a few times and like prog bands do that too so they must be prog-related), then BUSTED (because they have Sci-fi lyrics in that song Year 3000 and loads of Prog bands use sci-fi lyrics)... can you see where I'm going here? Maybe the philosophers are right and we are all one entity, thus making all genres prog or one of its relatives. I could be wrong. But as numerous people have said before: this isn't "Music That is Slightly Progressive Archives".And to be honest, I don't think the fact that other sites are loose justifies opening the gates to almost every band that gets suggested. Let them do what they please. Doesn't mean to say we have to follow suite. Rant over. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: January 21 2010 at 22:42
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I highly doubt that Morbid Angel are as influential as Metallica were though. Perhaps in retrospect, but most certainly not back then. I have read my lot of Metal Forces and other quality mags in the 80's to know about who were important to others back then. It is Metallica's influential scope as well as their musical creational skills that have been lauded by including them as prog-related. There aren't too many other bands to be found with the same massive level of influence on later, full fledged progressive outfits really. Morbid Angel nah, not really. As with Death Angel they are just too obscure to have had much of an impact. In my view the latter has a stronger case though. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: January 22 2010 at 10:39
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The question is though, where do we draw the line I mean, if we drew the line at Metallica, fair enough. But if we drew the line at Megadeth... that would have to allow a whole load of bands which are barely related to prog at all, not without going into the subject matter deep.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 22 2010 at 10:47
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^ There are no "rules" as to where we draw the line Alex because that would imply some fixed formula for entry into Prog Related and it isn't quite like that. While the definition looks as if it is a logical equation the actuality is more organic and we tend to be more selective in picking something that is "representative" rather than allowing a whole raft of like-minded bands in. ------------- What? |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 22 2010 at 11:35
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Over my dead undead body.... Oh well I don't have that much of a say on this issue but I'll whine and whine and cry trying to stop this addition from taking place... -------------
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: January 22 2010 at 13:07
Point taken. Music as a whole is better like that IMO, but for the love of god: Megadeth do not belong here. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: AmericanProgster
Date Posted: January 22 2010 at 13:22
------------- https://dawnapproach.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - https://dawnapproach.bandcamp.com/ https://soundcloud.com/dawn-approach" rel="nofollow - https://soundcloud.com/dawn-approach |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: January 22 2010 at 13:26
 I agree. The admins did not however. They rejected them for prog related.------------- 
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: January 22 2010 at 13:31
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NO.
ummmmmmmm
No.
Let me think about this.
NO.
They play fast you say?
NO.
They were technical for their time you say?
No.
They had political lyrics?
NO.
They never self-identified as prog, have never been part of the prog scene, and the closest genre, technical metal has been, by concensus, excluded from here over and over?
No
------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: January 22 2010 at 15:55
The admins might consider revising that decision after hearing Nostradamus! |
Posted By: snobb
Date Posted: January 22 2010 at 17:00
| ^Few first Judas Priest albums are heavily blues-rock influenced but really great works. Nostradamus is long and in many places sounds as prog-parody. |