Genesis' early label, Charisma records, had a Tenniel illustration of Lewis Carroll's "Mad Hatter" as its icon.

My question: How did the expression "As mad as a hatter"  originate?

The process by which felt hats were made involved treating the beaver and rabbit fur with nitrate of mercury to make it easier to pound. Since the hatmakers couldn't help but inhale the mercury, they suffered from mercury poisoning, which caused neurological damage resulting in slurred speech, a lurching gait, and uncontrolled muscle twitching. These were taken as signs of insanity, and the phrase mad as a hatter came into being.

Makes you think twice about beaver, huh?

I stole this, BTW.

 Aaargh, Danbo, you cheated!

(But you were honourable enough to admit doing so.)

Still, correct, and well (if underhandedly) done!

OK, here are some more, and no Internet research allowed:

 Why were the people who worked in early luminescent watch (and clock) factories often afflicted with cancer of the mouth and/or tongue?

 Why is it considered bad luck to walk under a ladder?

 Why do we say "Bless you" when someone sneezes?

Okay, no web.

1. Luminescent watch, eh? Radio-active. Fingers in the mouth, maybe food transference?

2. Ladder? Duh, people on ladders drop stuff on yer head. Ouch.

3. Bless you? I remember something about the spirit leaving the body when you sneeze. People say "Bless you" because you are temporarily without a spirit. 12 years in a Catholic school.  

The radium used for painting the watch hands and numerals was being breathed in by the workers which caused cancer.  

????????????????????????

The ladder, angled to the wall with the ground below forms a triangle, a symbolic association with the "holy trinity". Walking through the traingle violates the trinity.

?????????????????????

 Sneezing opens a passage from demons (evil) to enter. The "bless you" stops the demon in his/her steps. Eh.

?????????????????????????

OK, I'll put you out of your misery! (see below):

danbo wrote: The radium used for painting the watch hands and numerals was being breathed in by the workers which caused cancer.   ???????????????????????? Very close: The numbers were painted on, and as they were small, the workers needed to keep a fine point on their brushes. They used to wet them (and re-stick the bristles together) in their mouths, between dips in the radioactive goo -- no ill-effects-- at first! The ladder, angled to the wall with the ground below forms a triangle, a symbolic association with the "holy Trinity". Walking through the traingle violates the trinity. ????????????????????? 100% correct! (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) Sneezing opens a passage from demons (evil) to enter. The "bless you" stops the demon in his/her steps. Eh. ????????????????????????? Close: People had observed, in those pre-antibiotic days (pre any effective medicine, really), that sneezing often presaged death. It was assumed that in sneezing, the afflicted person's soul had thus been ejected from the body, and "no soul" = impending death. Hence, the "bless you" was to help prevent this, and to help prepare you to meet your Maker. (It has also been suggested that the hand in front of the nose and mouth when sneezing, originally had less to do with a polite wish to catch the flying "debris," than a desire to forcibly keep the soul within the body!) Ain't history grand?

 Thank you for the entertainment and brainercise. I will respond in kind soon. Red Wings vs Calgary Flames (game 1) starts soon. Must make sure my friend Sam Adams is suitably cold for face-off.  Tomorrow my Canuckian mentor.

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danbo wrote: Okay Petey, without looking at your Word Reference book. Why do we use the term "COP" when refering to a Police Officer? Probably an easy one, but we'll keep going 'til I, or Garten, stump you.

I'll get back to you, and I won't cheat.

For the record, the obscure words come out of my head (and my Victorian reading) -- the dictionary is to confirm intended meaning, and spelling.

PS: You know, Danbo, I'm such a decided non-jock that I don't even know who won your precious hockey game. Was it good for your team? Did your cadre of spoiled, genetic-freak millionaires put the little rubber disc in the net more times than the other gang of thuggish, knuckle-dragging ultra-rich guys, "representing" cities and countries they weren't even born in? Hmmmmm?

COP?  mmm because it stands for Corps Of Police department?  hahaha  

just goofying around

danbo wrote: Okay Petey, without looking at your Word Reference book. Why do we use the term "COP" when refering to a Police Officer? Probably an easy one, but we'll keep going 'til I, or Garten, stump you.

Well, you did stump me, you Machiavelian baldie! I actually took the trouble to ask a retired cop acquaintance of mine -- he had no real idea.

I considered copper badges or shields in the past, or the guarding of copper shipments -- unlikely!

The second young cop, asked at a gas station, offered "Constable On Patrol," but I was not convinced, certain that the word must be older than that modern-sounding acronym (like the P.I.G. = Pride, Integrity & Guts business....)

Finally, I thought of the old expression "cop a feel," as in "sneak," or "take," thought I was on the right track, then DID, I confess, look it up on the Wonderful Worldwide Web!  (Dictionary only told me it was "slang for police officer.")

(Hey, when I cheat, I tell you.)

Cop: "To take, or grab. (possibly of Germanic roots) Thus "copper" = "thief (& assorted bad guy) taker, or grabber."

Sorry to shoot dirty pool, old boy, but I did try for days! You won that one, but as a lover of words, I JUST HAD TO KNOW! It was driving me bonkers!Aaaaaarrrrggghhhh!

Now, answer me this (no web till you've given up): Why are there useless buttons on the cuffs of your sport-jacket, and buttons on cuffs in general

PS: How is that ol' Brewer and Patriot Samuel anyway?  He was rather cold last time I had the pleasure of his company....

Jim Garten wrote: Whilst we are on the subject of word origins, I was told a while ago (but cannot couch for the authenticity of the story) that a particularly naughty word in the English language comes from a form of licence for brothels - to..... as it were...... Fornicate Under Consent of the King. If this isn't true, then it should be!

That was actually on a test for a college class.

Don't forget Van Halen's 

For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge.  

Peter Rideout wrote: Cop: "To take, or grab. (possibly of Germanic roots) Thus "copper" = "thief (& assorted bad guy) taker, or grabber." PS: How is that ol' Brewer and Patriot Samuel anyway?  He was rather cold last time I had the pleasure of his company....

Righto, Petey.

The six members of the Adams family sit in the ice box as we speak, awaiting my loving caress.

Buttons, hhmm... if not merely an aesthetic appointment, I would have to guess that gloves were attached by a thin strap so as not to fall to the ground if a gentleman had to remove them whilst helping a poor damsel cross a puddle?   

Jim Garten wrote: Whilst we are on the subject of word origins, I was told a while ago (but cannot couch for the authenticity of the story) that a particularly naughty word in the English language comes from a form of licence for brothels - to..... as it were...... Fornicate Under Consent of the King. If this isn't true, then it should be!

 No, not so. Acronyms are rarely, if ever, the answer. That word is very old, and Germanic (sounds it, no?) in origin. My Arcade Dictionary of Word Origins says:

"The most celebrated of the so-called 'Anglo-Saxon' four-letter words goes back in written form no further than the early 16th century -- a far cry from the Old English period. A personal name, John Le F*cker, however, recorded from around 1278, shows that it was around before 1500 (perhaps not committed to paper because even then it was under a taboo). There is little doubt that it is of Germanic origin, but its precise source has never been satisfactorily identified. All the earliest known examples of the word come from Scotland, which may suggest a Scandinavian source, related to Norwegian dialect fukka 'copulate,' and Swedish dialect focka 'copulate, hit' and fock  'penis.'"

Hmmm, copulate has cop in it -- let's look up "cop" for a connection: nope, related to couple.

Here, in part, is the Dictionary of W.O. entry for copper:

"Copper, the slang term for policeman, is simply the agent noun formed from the verb cop 'seize,' which which probably comes via Old French caper from latin capere 'seize, take,' source of English capture."

There you go!

 Did you also know that in the classic Python flick "The Holy Grail," when Cleese as the French soldier refers to "silly English ki-nee-gits," he is mere pronouncing the word as it would have been pronounced in Old English, at the time of Arthur. What looks like nonsensical spelling to us now (knight -- why the K, and the GH?) is simply how it used to be pronounced, during a time (as in Chaucer's day) when English sounded more like German. The pronunciation has changed over the centuries, but the spelling has remained the same.

So, the next time you are complaining about how the spelling of some English words seem to make no sense, remember that, when the word was new, the spelling reflected how it was spoken.

Ain't language grand?

Now, why all the "Y"s in older English words and signs, etc, such as "thyme," "tyres," "cryme," etc. Why not just use the obvious "i"? Purely decorative, or something else

danbo wrote: Peter Rideout wrote: Cop: "To take, or grab. (possibly of Germanic roots) Thus "copper" = "thief (& assorted bad guy) taker, or grabber." PS: How is that ol' Brewer and Patriot Samuel anyway?  He was rather cold last time I had the pleasure of his company.... Righto, Petey. Buttons, hhmm... if not merely an aesthetic appointment, I would have to guess that gloves were attached by a thin strap so as not to fall to the ground if a gentleman had to remove them whilst helping a poor damsel cross a puddle?

Nay, you chivalrous bald-pate, nay! 'Tis not the case!

danbo wrote: I thought the F**K word had something to do with farming, specifically "planting a seed."  Maybe the reason Ian Anderson chose Jethro Tull, inventor of the seed drill, for the band name?

Dare thee question the all-knowing Dictionary of W.O., thou base knave? Forsooth, I'll have thy hairless head spitted on a pike, and mounted o'er the ramparts of my mighty island fortress, varlet! Have at thee!

There you go -- your first Archive-related death threat. Now you're in my select league....

danbo wrote:   http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001"> < kiss kiss

OK! Touche, old pal! Your pictures are worth 1000 of my words!

You know I'm joking, and that we need you here, oh baldie of 100,000 posts!

  Oh Peter,

If you do manage to put my smooth pate upon a pike and place it outside your fortress, either give me some shade or a healthy dollop of SPF45, I'm rather susceptible to sunburn.

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http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb042">

  Oh Peter,

If you do manage to put my smooth pate upon a pike and place it outside your fortress, either give me some shade or a healthy dollop of SPF45, I'm rather susceptible to sunburn.
/QUOTE]

Don't worry, oh hairless heartless fiend! To paraphrase spastic, shakey old Joe C., "I can leave your hat on." (Yes yes!)

Now, about that trivia question....

Hey, don't RUSH me...

Umm How about an attachment for a key fob,

  tie yer hankie too,

spare buttons- in case a needed one pops off,

ward off crazed EMUs,

percussionist designer, (clack clack..)

Sheesh..... Am I close, yet? http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001">

 Ha! You amuse me, little man!

No!

Nope!

Negatory!

Nyet!

Non!

Nein! NONE OF ZE ABUFF!

(Cool Bears tune!)

Jim Garten wrote: To button recalcitrant children together in a chain? To act as an ad-hoc abacus perhaps? Charity box 'coins' to save money? To act as a very small stone substitute in the event of finding a calm pond with no skimming materials nearby? Imitation sweets to bribe small (dim) children to watch your carriage for you? Or the obvious...... Cuff buttons are actually the remains of what used to be chain mail - essentially now for decoration only, but a swiftly raised cuff-buttoned arm could (in theory) ward off the point of an epee; indeed, over the years, this raised arm gesture actually evolved in what we now know as the salute...... Simple, eh?

The last one is closer, but still no cigar.

Re the origins of the salute, there are two main theories: 

1. When knights of olde met on the road, they would raise their helmet visors in order to make friendly and respectful eye-contact. This gesture becomes the salute.

2. The raised (empty) hand was a way to indicate that your weapon was not in hand (the other was on the reins) -- no evil intent.

I like the first one better.

Salut!

PS: In Victorian novels, to "salute" someone is to hug them!

Okay, okay.... web used.

How about: Buttons were a status symbol. Men, scurilous creatures as we are, competed to see who could have the best, the largest or the most intricate buttons. It was a display of wealth and some were set with gem stones.

Peter, Danbo et al:

Some corrections.

1.  "God bless you."  Peter is close, but Danbo is closer.  The origin is based on the fact that our "life" is the "breath" of "God," breathed into us at birth.  When we sneeze, we are temporarily "expelling" the "God" inside us, which provides a brief moment during which the "enemy" can indwell us.  We say "God bless you" to cover this brief moment.

2.  "F***."  Peter is close, but the etymology is actually known, thanks largely to Shakespeare.  It has been traced back to an early (pre-16th century) Italian demonstrative, "foccio."  Although the "sexual" connection is unknown, "foccio" was used in the same way we use the f-word, and apparently meant largely the same thing.

3.  The Salute.  Peter's first reference was correct: the history of the salute has been clearly traced to the lifting of the visor on one's armor, which, due to its heaviness, required at least two or three fingers, if not the entire hand.  Since it would be awkward to raise a visor with your palm (try making that motion...), it was done with the back of the hand, thus creating a "salute" when the visor was fully raised.

Here is a more musically oriented trivia question:

We have all been taught that Robert Moog "invented" the synthesizer.  However, the original electronic schematics for what became the "Moog" synthesizer were not created by Robert Moog, but rather were given to him by someone else.  Who?  (No cheating please!)

Peace.

 Hi Maani!

 You are not citing your sources, so how are we to know that your authority beats mine? Your "corrections" remain alternate theories. Produce near-universally-accepted proof, and I will readily agree with your version(s). (I know, I don't cite all my sources either, but I do when I have them to hand.)

1. You say "life," my source says "soul." What is the real difference, especially if people in the Middle Ages thought that you couldn't live without a soul? Each answer represents an academic theory (and, perhaps, someone's retelling of that theory) -- barring time travel, where's the proof? 

2. Again, what is your source for your definitive answer of 2? I gave mine-- a reputable authority, but still, not PROOF. Please supply the Shakespearean reference for "f*ck." How do you explain the 12th-century name (John Le F*cker)my Dictionary of W.O. cites? And who's to say the 15th C. Italians didn't get their word originally from the Vikings? (Germanic, again.)

3. Though we are in agreement, show me the time machine. Re the "back of the hand," when I raise the visor on my motorcycle helmet, I use my curved fingertips, palm toward face. How is the back of the hand better suited to any manipulative action? It makes no sense -- little grip, & less if clad in metal or leather!

I am careful to use words like "suggested," "assumed" and "according to" in these posts. Real "proof" of such matters often does not exist, and great debates rage on in the hallowed halls of academia. We can't even "prove" Shakespeare's authorship of all his plays, or his sexual orientation.

  Whew! But I don't want to argue about things largely lost in the mists of time, least of all with you, # 2!  (Perhaps you operate more in the realm of faith than I do.)

Now, how about the use of "Y" as a mid-word vowel in merry olde England? You guys are ignoring that one!

  Middle Dutch fokken = "to thrust, copulate with"; Norwegian dialect fukka = "to copulate"; and Swedish dialect focka = "to strike, push, copulate" and fock = "penis". Although German ficken may enter the picture somehow, it is problematic in having e-grade, or umlaut, where all the others have o-grade or zero-grade of the vowel.

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Peter Rideout wrote:  Nope! That may explain buttons, but why on cuffs, where they aren't needed?

  That's exactly it, they aren't needed, a sign of opulence.

OR

A class insignia

OR

Familial Designs for Nobles.

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"Oh Danny-bo, the prog, the prog is ca-aal-ling...."

What is the source of your dictionary entry, oh shaven-templed scholar?

Re your button answer, I regret to inform you that you haven't hit it yet. It's not wealth or status-related.

Try again, my non-hirsute friend!

  http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001">  If I gave up that info (sources and such) I'd be forced to reign mighty plutonium fueled pelicans down upon yer land. Their feces melts trailer roofs and ultra fertilizes the soil causing such an over-growth of vegetaion that your faulty electrical grid will grind to a screaching halt and render you unable to continue in your declarations of quetionable subject matter over the, Al Gore created, Internet.

another guess: Hhhmm, considering British horse-riding skills, the buttons were used to attach the feeble riders to their mounts by way of the reigns... 





http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb042">

 > Oh Daaaaaaan-bo! I'm waiting!

Do you give up, oh thick-of-cranium, benumbed-of-skull, and bereft-of-brains (did Adams exact a fearsome toll on the weekend?) Americanski friend?

Shall I end your mental anguish, and put you out of your misery on this one?

  http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001">  Sure, I GIVE UP......freaking BUTTONS.

You'd think he had something better to do with his time.

 I'll get back to you, pals! Talk amongst yourselves. Here's a topic: "The puff adder cannot add, nor is it a puff."

Discuss, then present your findings.

    http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001">  Snake...... it does puff!!! Kind of a backwards hiss.

I used to own a few boas. Snakes, that is, not the feather scarf Garten likes to wear to the disco. http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001">

When you get to the men´s room, you will see a sign that says, "Gentlemen."

Pay no heed to it.

Just go right on in.

 OK, gents, at long last, your answer as to the origins of (useless) buttons on coat sleeves! My source for this tasty trivia tidbit is The Best of Uncle John's Bathroom Reader, which is a great book for (you guessed it) throneroom reading:

"Researchers credit this to Napoleon Bonaparte. Apparently, while inspecting some troops, he spotted a soldier wiping his nose on his jacket sleeve. Disgusted, Napoleon ordered new jackets for his army -- this time with buttons on the sleeves, to (discourage the unseemly habit)."

There you have it -- the buttons are there to stop you putting snot all over the cuffs of your suit jacket! Ha!

Now, how did the custom of clinking glasses together after proposing a toast originate

That's a question, you knuckle-dragging neanderthals!

danbo wrote:   Crikey Peter!!!! Avoiding snot? That's the answer? I wonder about you Canucks. Worrying about snot...... Hmmmm http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001">

 Nappy was a Corsican, oh historically-challenged baldy!

Unlike some, we Canadians have never tried to rule the world....

Actually, Jambon, I've never seen a snowdrift over 96 feet (in July), and we're metric now anyway, so take yer stinkin' Uther-king's foot and forcibly insert it where the radiance of ol' Sol doesn't penetrate!

PS: At least our cops (mostly) drive on the right side of the road, and don't insist on wearing big blue t*ts on their beans!

Bobby! Ha! Bobbing for a baby's arm holding an apple (Lenny bruce -- look it up, Knumbknuts!), is more like it!

^ "Isn't it a PEACH."

Tommy Chong.

Answer the effing question, you boneheads! I don't know why I bother trying to edumacate you louts!

Aaaaarrrrgghh! Pop!

Uh oh! Now I've done it! There goes that vein in my capacious brain, again....

I don't feel so good.... Nurse, quick -- a cold Kilkenny (or 6)!

Mmmmm! Thas mush better!

 Hoo-rah, Sir Dan of Bo!

Uncle John's Bathroom Reader says that your first answer is correct -- a Middle Ages insurance against poisoning.

(Wouldn't work with yer weak Yankee swill-beer -- that's poison anyway! Stick with that "brewer and patriot" Samuel Adams!

Lots of good independent/microbreweries stateside, hey Danbo? (Seattle, esp.) We have some fine ones here, too!