In the Defense of Criticism Towards Metal
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Topic: In the Defense of Criticism Towards Metal
Posted By: Jake Kobrin
Subject: In the Defense of Criticism Towards Metal
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 02:06
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A girl I know is doing a history report on criticism towards metal and she asked me to say a few things about it. How does she get history topics like that??? I'm jealous... Let me know what you think. Firstly let me state that criticism is entirely valid. I know that there are many people who simply do not enjoy the genre which is something I can greatly understand. I for instance like very, very little music within the Hip Hop genre. What bothers me and I believe to be extremely ignorant about many of the criticizers however is how they generalize. It's an incredibly complex musical genre and is filled with hundreds of variants of styles and sounds. When most people consider Metal they either consider old NWOBHM (New Wave of British Heavy Metal) like Judas Priest, thrash metal like Slayer, or Nu-Metal/core like Slipknot. Most metal however sounds nothing like those bands. There is of course a lot of metal that is incredibly simple and conceptually 'stupid' to be blunt. What most people do not know about is the huge amount of complex, experimental, and extremely intelligent music within the genre. Kayo Dot for instance, sounds NOTHING like Slipknot and is one of the most unique and intelligent bands within any genre. There are also many poly-rhythmically complex bands (often labeled Mathematical or Technical) that rely heavily on the use of extreme time-signature variation and mathematical formulas. The most famous and praised band of this genre is Meshuggah of which I am a big fan of. Meshuggah was the forefather of the tech math genre which was then carried over into other genres such as as Breakcore (electronic) and Math-Rock. Another thing that bothers me is when arrogant people state that vocals within metal are only shouting. Firstly, not all metal bands utilize the distorted vocal technique. There are many metal vocalists with beautiful voices such as Mikael Akerfeldt of Opeth (listen to A Fair Judgement, Burden, or Face of Melinda) or Mariusz Duda of Riverside. Very few of the metal vocalists now a days use only angry shouts as was custom with Slayer (again, generalization comes into play.) The metal vocalists of now are able to twist their voices into the most in-human and unattainable sounds possible. Screaming is no longer just the angry shouts of an angsty teenager, it is an art form. If just anyone could create the gnarly shrieks of Grutle (Enslaved), the powerful roars of Mikael Akerfeldt (Opeth, Bloodbath, etc.), or the inhuman grunts of Muhammed Suiçmez (Necrophagist) then the human world would likely be a much more twisted and frightening place. I myself cannot even fathom creating those sounds with only my voice. In conclusion, it simply frustrates me when people do not look deeper within and try to find music they could actually enjoy, within any genre. I used to hate most metal until I began to dig and discovered that intelligent & original works actually do exist within the genre. Like I said, I hate most hip hop but I dug and dug and actually discovered some music groups (albeit underground ones) that I quite enjoy. - Jake Kobrin Note: I am not trying to sound pretentious within the text. I understand that some people simply DO NOT LIKE METAL. If that person has dived through the entirety of the genre then not only do I applaud them for their efforts but I entirely understand. I just wish to eliminate the general disdain and mocking attitude towards the genre. Hey, I really dislike Rush but I entirely respect them for being better musicians than I probably ever will be and breeding life into many bands that I love that would probably not exist without them. That's all I'm asking for, a little respect for the genre. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dr-Neil-Kobrin/244687105562746" rel="nofollow - SUPPORT MY FATHER AND BECOME A FAN Jacob Kobrin Illustration |
Replies:
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 04:46
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Well, actually math rock didn't really come from Meshuggah. Math Rock, culturally at least is more derived from punk than metal, but obviously there is elements of metal throughout math rock and the bands. But otherwise, great post dude, it's the sort of attitude we guys over at the Progressive Metal Team applaud  Beyond the aggression and fury of metal, as you pointed out, lies a beauty, depth and character to it all which may speak to some straight away, or you may need time to get accustomed to it. ------------- 
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 04:54
Good subject Jake . Always a pleasure to read posts by someone so pationate about his music as you are.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 05:13
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OK, isn't that more of a defense of metal against criticism?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 05:49
Hehe, yeah, looks like poor choice of preposition more than anything.  On topic, what is meant by "seeking respect"? Requiring approval from people who don't follow your favourite music genre? Why is that important? Because if you ask me, I don't see how any non-popular, non-classical genre except jazz will get general critical approval. Actually lot of people would just as well criticize jazz too; they just don't get the opportunity because jazz nerds are few and don't talk to the lowly masses..or something.  I don't like hip hop and I don't look for ways and means to vent my dislike because I am indifferent to it, like people who don't listen to metal would be to it. But if somebody who's a good friend of mine happens to be a hip hop fan and forces me to explain why I don't like hip hop, the generalizations will come tumbling out. Obviously, I cannot satisfactorily analyze a genre I am not familiar with and I cannot become familiar with a genre unless I enjoy it to at least some extent. To believe that one can understand clealry a genre one doesn't like at all is illusory, imo.Next, metal doesn't need to adopt conventional styles of singing or complex music theory to be "good". If it can be done well with those, a la Akerfeldt's singing, well and good, but it is not a necessary condition. As a metal fan, I have never had a problem with the shouted style of singing, it is energetic and aggressive and more often than not fitting of the music that accompanies it. Likewise, repetitive, simple structures do impose constraints on creativity but hey, I never hear anybody complain of how repetitive AC DC is. Un-melodic solos are perfectly acceptable in metal and perhaps more suitable than saccharine sweet guitar that somebody who doesn't listen to metal might find more palatable. All this is to say that metal has carved out an unique niche and it does not need to conform to conventional perceptions of music to be "good": is it by the way more important for metal fans to consider their metal music good or for the "non-metal" world to accept it? It bothers me that efforts to defend metal tend to veer towards how metal CAN absorb more conventional, in fact mainstream-wise acceptable, ideas of music because I don't follow how that by itself makes it a better genre or makes the criticisms against it less valid, if at all they have validity. I don't have anything against efforts to make metal more mainstream-friendly but that cannot be held up as the quintessence of metal. And no more will introducing complexity in metal make it a better genre; that would only mean it is more difficult to play and compose than people suggest but these two are not sufficient conditions for good music. The point is, it is a futile exercise to make somebody understand what is it you find so awesome in metal; it is in a world in itself, just like prog. Those who get to like metal will find a vast array of music to enjoy; for the rest, hard luck but the world goes on. |
Slartibartfast wrote:Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 05:56
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I think the point is that people should dig a bit deeper into the multible sub-genres in metal before making prejudiced statements about what metal is. I think it´s a valid point and I fully understand Jake as I have experienced people´s prejudiced opinions about the genre as well. Both on PA and in "real life". People are welcome to criticise metal if they know what they are talking about, the problem is that some critics generalize when speaking about metal as if it is one genre when it definitely isn´t. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 06:08
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I largely agree with what Jake said - people should indeed delve deeper into genres before dismissing them. However, most people can't devote that much time to music they don't enjoy listening to ... so we should be easy on them as long as they make clear in their post that they're a) simply not enjoying the music and b) haven't devoted much time to check it out. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 06:26
Which I believe most people do, they generally accept that they don't listen to much metal as they are not interested, they just use language that may come off as rude and arrogant...I say f*** them! |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: February 24 2009 at 06:59
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Nice post man, pretty much sums up most of my thoughts on the subject. I just have one thing to add: a genre is like a person. If you don't know that person then don't start spitting fireballs about them.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: February 28 2009 at 13:16
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I think a big part of the problem is that the same outside world that dismisses metal as dated kitsch still recognizes punk and rap as legitimate forms of subversive art, even though those two genres are just as full of silly clichés as metal. As is progressive rock and "art rock" in general, for that matter. I'm more and more starting to believe that genres should be judged not by how they are on average, but by their highest points. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: February 28 2009 at 13:32
| many people dislikes metal because of grawls ,screams they cannot see the beauty behind the curtain, although it is very enjoyable curtain , but for some it is barrier , i feel sorry for them canot see the beauty of Opeth, Meshuggah , Death, Borknagar,Quo Vadis, .. Other people consider it is too agressive , distortion boders them, but most of them do not know what great music is . |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 28 2009 at 20:02
Ha, distortion does not bother me in the least; nothing like a good ol' distorted guitar to get rocking. And I would have expected distorted guitars to be a main feature of prog metal. Yet sadly I find it ain't so. The growling is not specific of prog metal, it can be found in other genres of metal too. I personally find it childish and annoying; if that is supposed to be aggressive then the grandmother on my mother's side was a kangaroo. It is a gimmick from a cheap monster movie, in my opinion. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: February 28 2009 at 20:36
i didn't say for grawling to represent agression, i said metal in general is considered agressive by some group of people, and about grawling ,screaming you don't like, ok i respect your opinion, but man you don't know what you are missing , very good bands out there , you have just pay them more attention, ,don't boders with the clean voice / grawl /scream whatever it is, for me melody , rhythm , music is important , not if one screams, grawling or so. some have very good screams/grawls, ex: Mikael Akerfeldt from Opeth , it has such a nice grawl i enjoy listening it, Garm also, Chuck schuldiner, ... |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 01:01
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I think growling adds tons of great texture if done right. It's a shame people can't get their heads around it. Though if some people think it's a cheap gimmick, then I don't know what to say to that. However, as I said before, I see most deep growling as operatic.
By the way angelmk, it's spelled growling. I know you're from Macedonia and your English isn't the best, though, so don't think I'm trying to belittle you  . And I have to say you have impressive musical taste as well.------------- 
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Posted By: Jake Kobrin
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 01:58
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I've never been a fan of Chuck Shuldiners vocals to be honest. He's still one of my most respected musicians of all time.
------------- http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dr-Neil-Kobrin/244687105562746" rel="nofollow - SUPPORT MY FATHER AND BECOME A FAN Jacob Kobrin Illustration |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 02:14
If that's your opinion then I'm fine with that. However, your ridiculing of the growling style indicates to me that you seem to think that what we fans refer to as "aggressiveness" in metal is meant to sound frightening. It is not ... just like horror movies are not frightening those who like to watch them. We often had discussions about open mindedness - and during those you (or was it BaldJean - I'm not sure) used to criticise me for confusing open mindedness with simply liking everything. I don't do that - IMO you don't have to like everything, but you can try to *respect* everything. My mother is a skilled musician, she has perfect pitch and plays both the piano and violin, predominantly classical pieces. She finds most stuff that I listen to childish and annoying, no matter whether it's metal, rock or jazz. I'd like to think that I'm more open minded than her - or you, for that matter. That's not necessarily a good thing - some people might actually prefer not to be called open minded. If you not only not like metal, but also feel you have to constantly tell people that it's bad, and that they should stay away from it ... I (no longer) mind, but it can't help thinking that you and I may be on the opposite ends of a spektrum. Like on Pink Floyd's The Wall I would be a pupil and you would be a teacher ... or on Zappa's Joe's Garage I would be Joe and you would be that mother character telling me to "turn it down". ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 02:36
I do like screaming, but I don't like growling. show me a person that growls like that in real life. nonsense. screaming, however, happens a lot ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 02:49
I don't really understand what is meant by "and I would have expected distorted guitars to be a main feature of prog metal. Yet sadly I find it ain't so".  What makes metal what it is, is not a single component. I, as a long time metal fan and also a member of the Progressive Metal Team, have never seen metal as having one main component that makes it what it is. I'd imagine if that were the case though, I would never have been promoted to the team in the first place Heavy metal is about the overall picture, not about 'distorted guitars' as a primary focus or vocals as a primary focus for example. To me growling is just another way of expressing emotions, just as you would singing or playing an instrument. It does take an enormous amount of skill and a great deal of training to be able to growl properly and consistently, otherwise many will find incorrect vocal technique will destroy their vocal chords relatively quickly. It's not just something decided to do because it was a 'cheap way of sounding different' or something, to many, including myself, it truly is a thing of art and of real skill, no less than singing or playing an instrument well. Not saying you have to like it of course, but my main point is that some people do find it very expressive and wouldn't have it any other way. -------------
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Posted By: Jake Kobrin
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 02:55
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I used to dislike screams, growls, gutturals, etc because I used to think, "wow that singer is horrible..." I began to tolerate them when I stopped thinking about it as singing started to think of it as another instrument more percussion based than driven by melody. I now like them . Though they can be cliche and 'cheesy' they can be extremely dark and emotional when used correctly.
------------- http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dr-Neil-Kobrin/244687105562746" rel="nofollow - SUPPORT MY FATHER AND BECOME A FAN Jacob Kobrin Illustration |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 03:32
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I guess that we all perceive music differently. I also couldn't stand growling when I first heard it ... but the same applies to Avant-Garde, Jazz-Fusion or Experimental Electronic stuff. Eventually you *may* develop a taste for it ... or you don't. But depending on the quality of the vocals *and* your personal bias for (or against) the style you might perceive them as cliche and cheesy (or "childish", as BaldFriede put it) or deeply dark and emotional.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 06:18
YESSSSSSS!!! Sorry, I overreacted slightly ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 11:02
The main point of Jake's initial argument is that the spectrum of Metal is broad, encompassing a wide variety of styles and techniques and no single element can be used as an argument or criticism against it in general terms when there are so many examples that can be cited to counter it. If distorted vocals are not to your liking, that is fine and acceptable, but it would be unwise to tar all metal vocalists with the same brush. ------------- What? |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 16:00
yes man , that i was willing to say. Bravo.
Is that so? show me a person who screams like to say Mayhem vocalists Dead or Maniac, Abigor vocalist, Kampfar, Gorgoroth, to name just a few .can you? certainly not; it doesn't happens normaly exept one is butchered to death ,cut with jigsaw, i wanted to say that none of screams or growls are usual way of expressing oneself , it is art , art will remain . |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 16:06
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As a response to BaldFriede, how many people do you normally see singing when they are trying to communicate a point, like when they scream? I don't find it a valid argument, since singing is an almost universally accepted musical technique.
I'd also like to say that I enjoy deep death growls far more than screams, which tend to get on my nerves. And higher black metal vocals are much better than the annoying lower range ones. IMO of course. -------------
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Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 17:06
| I've never gotten metal. I hate people who say that an entire genre is "bad music" though, it's just ignorant. I don't like it, it doesn't mean others do. But to throw in something, I often times think the heavy music is cool, I just can't stand the "singer" of 98% bands I've heard. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 18:59
I use some even more extreme singing styles myself (you should hear my throat singing, which I interestingly discovered as a child when experimenting my voice and developed to a very high standard before I learned it is a technique used by shamans of certain tribes). What I object to is not the growling itself, it is the being stuck in it. Vocals should fit the lyrics. Maybe the vocals of growlers do fit the lyrics (sorry, I can't understand them), but the only lyrics those growls would be fitting for are in my opinion pretty macabre ones. What annoys me is not the growling per se; that, as you rightly mentioned, is just a technique. But those growlers are pretty much stuck on it; that's what I find annoying. Now either their vocals always fit their lyrics (which, as already mentioned, I don't understand), then it is definitely the lyrics I hate and consider to be childish. If I did such growling (which is perfectly possible), then the lyrics would probably resemble being from a Lovecraft novel or the likes. It is the purported image that goes along with growling which I simply find ridiculous. "Here I am, so very terrifying". Sorry, that only makes me laugh. Maybe I am doing the growlers an injustice, and this "Here I am, so very terrifying" is not their purpose, but somehow I doubt it. To sum it up: If you growl on a few songs: Nothing wrong with it. If you do it all the time: Ridiculous. I use throat singing very rarely; it puts a lot of strain on the vocal chords. It has certain similarities to growling, but there are differences too. Someone who is familiar with throat singing will instantly recognize it when it is being used somewhere. There are many different techniques for it; it is very fun discovering them (well, at least it was for me). With throat singing you can produce two or more notes at the same time, depending on which technique you use. The following video demosntrates a few of them; you will realize why I compare it to growling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ3BX2tMj1Y&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ3BX2tMj1Y&feature=related A good way of learning throat singing is to repeat "I am" again and again in a singing voice because these sounds are naturally formed back in the throat. Feel how the sounds are being produced there, modify them by changing the position of the lips, blowing up the cheeks and the likes, try to add a rattling noise (careful, this causes A LOT of strain on the vocal chords; not recommended for beginners). As you progress, you will discover those techniques yourself. You can even sing lyrics that way, though it is definitely not easy. I discovered throat singing by gurgling the melody of German TV sci-fi series "Raumpatrouille" ("Space Patrol") when I was a child, though I had no idea what I was doing then; it simply sounded good (quite spacy, actually). Then one day I heard a radio feature about throat singing and noticed I had done it for years without knowing WHAT I actually was doing when I did it. Gurgling actually is a good start for throat singing too, like the "I am" method. Be sure you are alone when doing this though; your friends or relatives may think you have gone mad, Playing a jew harp has many similarities with throat singing, by the way; the way you change the sound of the jew harp is very similar to the way of modulating the tone when throat singing. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: March 01 2009 at 18:59
yeah ? what do you listen most, which vocalists are your favourite ones ?! |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 05:39
Generally I'd say that whenever an artist uses a highly distinctive technique too much, there's a chance that people will grow tired of it. *Contrast* is something that I always look for in music ... but then again that doesn't mean that artists should change style all the time, does it? Every artist is (or should be) unique. If some use growling all the time (or double bass, another technique you don't like), contrast might be achieved by changing other elements of the music. To sum up my response: If the growling fits the music: nothing wrong with it. If it doesn't: I'm not comfortable with using words like "ridiculous" because I think they're disrespectful to the artist, but I certainly will give lower ratings to such albums. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 06:31
You still don't seem to get my take on double-bass drumming. I am not objected to it per se; in fact there is a drummer I like very much who plays with two bass drums (he is listed in the "different kind of drum poll I made; see if you can spot him there). http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55755&KW=different&PID=3153953#3153953 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55755&FID=42 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55755&FID=42 No, what I dislike is what most people do with a double bass-drum. They could learn a lot from the man I am talking of, who has a very tasteful way of using them. Of course that's MY taste only; others may disagree. I am actually thinking of getting a second hi-hat for my kit, by the way. As far as I know nobody has ever done that. . Makes at least as much sense as a double bass drum. I would actually like to take some songs which use excessive double bass-drumming and record them again using two hi-hats instead of two bass drums. Of course other changes would have to happen in the arrangement of the song.And with growling it is just the same. If it fits, fine; but just as with double bass-drumming people use it to excess. Since I am a in the culinary business, let me use a culinary metaphor: Double bass drumming is like a spice; use to much of it, and the flavour of the food gets lost; you only taste the spice. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Trial and Error
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 07:05
Which is exactly the point. The lyrics are in 90% of the cases macabre, which is why the growls are used in the first place. What I think you should complain about is the one sided content of lyrics many bands have, not what vocals they decide to employ to transport them. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Trial_And_Error/?chartstyle=SidebarRed1"> 
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 07:21
This is in fact part of what I complain about. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 11:28
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My feelings about metal in general can be summed up by the following: "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." (1Cor. 13:11) One of the most negative aspects of the dominance of US culture in the world is the concept of "Perpetual Youth". It really is OK to grow up. When I was 15 I enjoyed a lot of the metal of the time. Now I see it for the juvenile genre it really is. I understand fully why my Dad laughed his ass off at Black Sabbath when they were on TV. It really IS funny. Metal is not dark, evil, sinister, mean or angry; it is not intellectually or emotionally deep, intriguing, or even very interesting. What it is, is COMEDY to anyone who has managed to achieve a bit of emotional maturity.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 12:10
I'm 51 I love metal - I admit it, I never want to grow-up. Your call.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 14:25
Well, its an interesting post, I'll give you that. What is also juvenile is being so blatantly offensive to so many fellow forums users, and trying to use biblical script to back yourself up. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 14:32
I think you're over-simplifying the matter. My guess is that you generally don't like the aggressiveness of metal, and you can't take it seriously. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but you can't really expect others to adopt such an extreme point of view. In any genre, if I want some advice I will try to find someone who likes what the genre is about. If I want some extreme metal recommendations I would try to find some one who enjoys growling and/or double bass, and the typical metal topics/lyrics. These persons will not like all the albums the same ... even among those albums which feature growling in every track an expert (as in: having listened to a great deal of albums) will tell you that some are better and some are worse, on some the growling is appropriate on on others not so much, and so on. What I'm trying to say is that your point of view is simply extremely biased. Yet you continue to look down on those who don't share it ... exemplified by your statement that those other drummers "could learn a lot" from the guy who *you* happen to like. I think that's the basic difference between you and me (or more specifically, between our posts): You tell people what's better than their favorite music and artists, I tell people what they might also enjoy. Not that there aren't bands that I don't like and which in my opinion are overrated ... but I don't have to mention it all the time. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 14:36
It's a shame that you, with all your (theoretical) knowledge of music, are being deliberately ignorant of what metal has to offer. Well, if it's all just like Black Sabbath to you ... go on and listen to whatever it is you prefer. I shall do the same ... Audio-Surf is already launching, for the next half hour I'll have some fun with Sleepytime Gorilla Museum. Who aren't metal BTW ... not that it matters *to me*.  ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 14:37
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Not using the quote from Corinthians to back up my position, just as an illustration that "perpetual youth" is not necessarily the best or only way to live. Adolescence, like other seasons of life, is meant to end. Most members here gave up Barney at some point, and metal, which is fiercely, even defiantly adolescent, isn't any different. What I find juvenile is that you would feel insulted or threatened by an opinion.
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Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 14:47
TradeMark, You are one of a kind. as i remember you were objected metal on other thread. Now i'am realy  . how can you say such a nonsense. how can metal be ''juvenile genre '' can you support this statement with some proof.Let me tell you the answer , you cannot, i how can you tell that you once have listened metal, but you don't listen anymore, once one infects with metal desease ,it is inevitable process, cannot be reversed.it grows more and more(if one realy loves metal, not those like YOU) so want to explore more deeper into genre and finaly came across Prog metal, and stops here. this is the ultimate Quest. Starts digging in prog metal contininuum , and suddenly see there is no coming back , he has reached the pick of metal genre. and he is happy with it. Metal is all the things you'va mentioned , and plus many more. Can you elaborate this thing ''emotional maturity'', i don't get it, on which level of that scale of yours are you, ? which music is emotionaly mature to listen,please share with us, i'am eager to know, cos right now we metal fans are all immature ones and cannot tell right for wrong, we need someone to enlighten us, messiah to safe us from getting wrong direction towards infinite ambys of Emotional DISASTER , sooner or later we gonna crush somewhere , member above already said he is 51 and loves metal. i'am 24 ,and i'am metal fan,We are kids and don't want to grow up?!! Metal is not a comedy. the Only one who deserve that epithet is YOU, You always say some of the most funniest thing i've ever heard, but you are tragic comedy . many people don't like metal , but they don't say this stupid arguments like you why they don't like. right now i'am listening Opeth - Dirge for november, if that is not emotional, so what to say more.BTW, what kind of metal have you been listening at the age of 15? and what are you listening most now? just curious.
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 14:53
I laughed so hard at this statement that I had trouble reading it through. Not at the opinion itself - you're entitled to it of course - but for stating it as if it is a truth cast in stone....man....you add a few dimensions to terms like conservative and reactionary. And reminds me of quotes I've seen from the 50's; middle-aged men sat in their ways stating the same kind of opinions-as-facts; at that time with Elvis, Eddie Cochran and Bill Haley as the examples of artists enjoyable by immature soulsonly - while jazz and classical music were the obvious forms of melodic art one needed a mature and adult mind to understand and comprehend ;-) ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 15:02
Insulted? Sure, a little bit, though I don't think maintaining some of my youthful spirit a bad thing. Threatened by what you wrote? Not a chance. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 15:05
Wrong, totally wrong! I love aggressiveness! But I don't consider double bass-drumming to be aggressive at all, at least not those "thunderstorms". That's where we seem to differ. Actually I am pretty much disappointed by most prog metal bands because of the lack of aggressiveness. Speed and double-bass drumming don't make music aggressive at all when it is all flat and consonant and not in the least off-key, which is where real aggressiveness comes from, in my opinion. This is what mostly disappoints me about prog metal. There may be exceptions, but it is mostly right. Most prog metal bands are really "tame", in my opinion; I have yet to find a prog metal band that is as aggressive as, for example, High Tide. Jean and are currently taking a tour through all the prog metal bands in the archives, by the way, and listen to any sound examples we can find, weither here or on youtube or elsewhere. We are still at "A", so it will take some more time. Some bands which are filed under prog metal which we have already listened to we would have put under "heavy prog" and not under "prog metal". But we will make a complete report of our opinions (with seperate votes) once we have fisinshed with them all. So far nothing really exiting yet, but we only just started. And of course we will come across names which aere already familiar to us, though we are definitely not experts on prog metal. But that's mostly because of what we heard so far did not excite us at all, including the examples you gave us. Our impression about prog metal is "Dogs that bark but don't bite at all". All too clean and neat to be really aggressive. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 15:09
 let's keep it friendly... or it won't be .... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 15:14
insulted ? man you are saying a load of S**T , nonsense you are targetting. i cannot insult from it, But i'am furious. your opinion is not counting, It is based on your false assumptions and bible.
me too , i haven't laughed this way in a while.
Salute for this one.
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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 15:25
I love you dude (platonicaly) Trademark... the most important part of growing up is learning to enjoy things without taking them seriously.... you seem to have no idea how to do that... and I feel bad for you cause that must suck. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 15:28
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Obviously saying only children like metal isn't valid, look how many adults play and buy metal music.
I don't like metal too much, maybe a few things here and there. but I don't understand the need to insult people and call them childish, to me that seems like very 'juvenile' behaviour. |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 15:38
disscusion is getting more and more interesting. so prog metal is not agressive enough for you ? tame? so go and listen Black metal acts like, Dimmu Borgir, Gorgoroth, Marduk,Abigor , Mayhem or Brutal death acts, suffocation, krisiun,Cannibal Corpse ,Dying fetus . oooops i forgot , you don't like growls , so my man go seek for aggressivenes somewhere else, metal does not satisfy you and Quo Vadis ,Death , Deathspell omega , Diabolical masquerade, Edge of sanity , Farmacon, Moonspell, Pestilence, Woolves in the throne room, . are not aggressive enough fro you?? man prog metal is not meant to show agressiveness, But art , and beauty, complex rhythm, something diferent than other metal genres. subtle. profound. PS: define aggresiveness for you? which bands are realy aggressive IYO ?
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 15:59
Words like "childish", "ridiculous" etc. ... they may be based on personal opinions, but they are offensive. "Free speech" ... of course it's important, but it doesn't mean that I have to agree with everyone. About the point you're trying to make: Who defines what's the best way to live? In the end we're all going to die. If I choose to continue to enjoy listening to metal, then I'll do that. It's not hurting anyone. It's my choice. Last week I was "celebrating" my 34th birthday ... I listen to all kind of music, some more sophisticated than most things that I liked as a teenager, but some as raw and "childish" as it gets. Like I said above: I love contrast. I can enjoy a nice red wine, or a cool beer. Among my most favorite albums of all time are beautiful Jazz albums like Karrin Allyson's Ballads: Remembering John Coltrane, but also highly offensive stuff like Celtic Frost - Monotheist. In my humble opinion this versatility of mine is a huge asset when it comes to giving advice to other prog fans. My goal is to judge music by quality alone, regardless of style. I'm not actively trying to enforce this "guideline", but my musical journey is taking me in that direction ... and I hope that it will last a while longer. I'd hate to see my musical scope reducing with age ... ideally it should be ever expanding, until the bitter end.  ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 16:08
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Well i first started listening to yes and genesis, but could stand any Dream Theater... now i love DT, one of my current favourites.. only thing that puts me off are thier terrible, terrible lyrics for the most part.. ------------- 
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 16:11
Please, enough with the nit-picking! It's like you would be complaining about a horror movie if it doesn't actually frighten you. Of course metal is not really aggressive in the sense that it would intimidate the listener. But when I play some of the stuff to my mother, I'm pretty sure she would call it aggressive. I surely know which kind of aggressiveness you're talking about - but I wouldn't call it that. Dark, Avant-Garde, Gloomy, Dissonant ... those are the attributes that I *guess* intrigue you. But, as much as I love them, I would say that the more you listen to them the more "tame" they become. You can get used to anything. Getting back to metal: I love these types of aggressiveness ... from the "really tame", cheesy style of European Power Metal to old school, "nasty" Black Metal. And I can tell you that most of the listeners take the music seriously. Neither do most prog fans ... else they would hang themselves to some of those VdGG tunes ...
I don't find High Tide to be aggressive either. Each to their own, I guess ... BTW: You're very welcome to tag some albums at Progfreak.com ... or look up some albums based on the tags already assigned: http://progfreak.com/home/charts.xhtml?y=*any&tags=avant_garde&g=metal - http://progfreak.com/home/charts.xhtml?y=*any&tags=avant_garde&g=metal ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 16:12
Please, enough with the nit-picking! It's like you would be complaining about a horror movie if it doesn't actually frighten you. Of course metal is not really aggressive in the sense that it would intimidate the listener. But when I play some of the stuff to my mother, I'm pretty sure she would call it aggressive. I surely know which kind of aggressiveness you're talking about - but I wouldn't call it that. Dark, Avant-Garde, Gloomy, Dissonant ... those are the attributes that I *guess* intrigue you. But, as much as I love them, I would say that the more you listen to them the more "tame" they become. You can get used to anything. Getting back to metal: I love these types of aggressiveness ... from the "really tame", cheesy style of European Power Metal to old school, "nasty" Black Metal. And I can tell you that most of the listeners take the music seriously. Neither do most prog fans ... else they would hang themselves to some of those VdGG tunes ...
I don't find High Tide to be aggressive either. Each to their own, I guess ... BTW: You're very welcome to tag some albums at Progfreak.com ... or look up some albums based on the tags already assigned: http://progfreak.com/home/charts.xhtml?y=*any&tags=avant_garde&g=metal - http://progfreak.com/home/charts.xhtml?y=*any&tags=avant_garde&g=metal ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 16:13
Please, enough with the nit-picking! It's like you would be complaining about a horror movie if it doesn't actually frighten you. Of course metal is not really aggressive in the sense that it would intimidate the listener. But when I play some of the stuff to my mother, I'm pretty sure she would call it aggressive. I surely know which kind of aggressiveness you're talking about - but I wouldn't call it that. Dark, Avant-Garde, Gloomy, Dissonant ... those are the attributes that I *guess* intrigue you. But, as much as I love them, I would say that the more you listen to them the more "tame" they become. You can get used to anything. Getting back to metal: I love these types of aggressiveness ... from the "really tame", cheesy style of European Power Metal to old school, "nasty" Black Metal. And I can tell you that most of the listeners take the music seriously. Neither do most prog fans ... else they would hang themselves to some of those VdGG tunes ...
I don't find High Tide to be aggressive either. Each to their own, I guess ... BTW: You're very welcome to tag some albums at Progfreak.com ... or look up some albums based on the tags already assigned: http://progfreak.com/home/charts.xhtml?y=*any&tags=avant_garde&g=metal - http://progfreak.com/home/charts.xhtml?y=*any&tags=avant_garde&g=metal ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 16:14
I never used the word "childish" or the word "ridiculous" so I don't think you're talking to me. I'm not sure why you've quoted my post here. This must be directed at someone who actually used those words in a post. Maybe you meant to quote one of the Bald Angels here. Doesn't make any sense to me. I did use the word comedy because it does make me laugh.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 16:15
Please, enough with the nit-picking! It's like you would be complaining about a horror movie if it doesn't actually frighten you. Of course metal is not really aggressive in the sense that it would intimidate the listener. But when I play some of the stuff to my mother, I'm pretty sure she would call it aggressive. I surely know which kind of aggressiveness you're talking about - but I wouldn't call it that. Dark, Avant-Garde, Gloomy, Dissonant ... those are the attributes that I *guess* intrigue you. But, as much as I love them, I would say that the more you listen to them the more "tame" they become. You can get used to anything. Getting back to metal: I love these types of aggressiveness ... from the "really tame", cheesy style of European Power Metal to old school, "nasty" Black Metal. And I can tell you that most of the listeners take the music seriously. Neither do most prog fans ... else they would hang themselves to some of those VdGG tunes ...
I don't find High Tide to be aggressive either. Each to their own, I guess ... BTW: You're very welcome to tag some albums at Progfreak.com ... or look up some albums based on the tags already assigned: http://progfreak.com/home/charts.xhtml?y=*any&tags=avant_garde&g=metal - http://progfreak.com/home/charts.xhtml?y=*any&tags=avant_garde&g=metal ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 16:22
Your quote from the Corinthians contained the word, you call it a "juvenile genre". Why would you say that if you didn't think the genre was childish? If that wasn't the point of your posts, feel free to correct me. But you're right - I was digressing in my post a little bit, I guess mostly because I think that you agree with most they're saying about metal. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 16:28
I'm with Dean on this one, well mostly. Some metal gives me a headache, I'm not a huge fan of growling and I don't like the overuse of double bass drums, but last Sunday morning I got in the car and whacked on "In Flames" at overly loud volume. Fantastic! Sometimes I feel like some quiet, relaxing music, sometimes the old brain cells need blasting. I don't see why it's "juvenile" or "comedy" (although it is hard to take some of them seriously at times). |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 16:32
Yeah, you Did use comedy , indeed. in wrong sense
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 16:42
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Just to ease the tension ... rather than debating all the time, let's listen: http://www.myspace.com/lambofgod - http://www.myspace.com/lambofgod Their new album has just been released ... I think it's really great. Brilliant musicianship, songwriting, production ... and bursting with raw energy. Aggressive? Maybe. Childish? not in my opinion. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 16:43
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The quote from Corinthians and the use of the words juvenille & adolescent were meant to indicate (perhaps not clearly enough) a fairly well documented stage of physical and intellectual development; one which ends when the processes of body and brain development are complete (around age 20). The actual point I was trying to make is how odd it seems to me that people not only continue to choose music and other forms of entertainment (video games anyone?) that are designed for and marketed to an adolescent mentality. Make no mistake about it, the marketing research department at the Roadrunner label has more people on it than all the band rosters put together. This music is "marketing metal", and the target audience is High School boys and it shows. I enjoyed it and listened to it in my season, but I don't understand adults treating it as if it were something other than what it is in a seemingly desperate attempt to "maintain a youthful spirit". I really can't see the difference between an adult sitting down to listen to metal and enjoying it and an adult sitting down to watch Barney and enjoying it. Neither is "age appropriate." The dogged determination to hold onto this part of life both confuses and amuses me. Its at a pandemic level here in the states. The idea that you can only be happy if you're young and totally stupid (which we all are at that age) is not so much the problem as the idea that you should never grow out of it. Metal is a symptom (a hacking, growling cough), not the disease.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:00
I guess it boils down to whether you'd like to be the pupil or the teacher on Pink Floyd's The Wall. I would choose the pupil ... and I don't think that somehow, at a certain age you're required to not be rebellious/adventurous anymore and instead become docile and tame - or even arrogant and narrow-minded. BTW: Why do you always simplify the genre so much? Metal is not unlike many other genres in that it has a commercial aspect. But many bands are not commercial at all, and surely not all metal albums are equally bland and tasteless. Some are even mature and thoughtful ... it's a diverse genre. If you're so quick to dismiss music because of some juvenile traits - be careful, you might have to throw away large portions of prog rock as well. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:10
Man, you just don't get it,do you? and where do you find that information ''the target audience is High School boys'' tell me, is it based on your assumptions? if that so , please reconsider that , you are very wrong ,i don't have to elaborate again, it is not ''desperate attempt'' it is love for the music , passion (which obviousely is part you have skipped) and don't tell me that roadrunner is marketting metal, if you don't like it , your problem. it is not called ''pandemic level'' it is called GREAT MUSIC(WHICH YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, AND MAKE A FOOL OF YOURSELF) Man one cannot grow out metal , it stays inside him deeply, if one realy loves metal , it became part of his life, truly.
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Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:11
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"I guess it boils down to whether you'd like to be the pupil or the teacher on Pink Floyd's The Wall. I would choose the pupil ... and I don't think that somehow, at a certain age you're required to not be rebellious/adventurous anymore and instead become docile and tame - or even arrogant and narrow-minded." Now who's simplifying things.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:21
I think it would be fair to say that all Popular music is aimed squarely at the adolescent demographic. Even our beloved Prog was targeted at teenagers back in the day - certainly people even just a few years older than me never listened to Yes, Floyd or Van der Graaf - they preferred Cream or The Beatles - the target audience for these bands was incredibly narrow - we're talking +/- 3 years max. And so it is with every generation and every "trend" - the PR guys sign bands that will fit their most lucrative markets - Roadrunner knows who pays their wages, and they are smart enough to sweep-up a broad cross-section of popular bands to ensure they get a good proportion of that market - exactly as Charisma and Virgin did on the 70s (and 80s - notice how quickly Virgin jumped "ship" and chased after the next generation of teenagers).
That does not make it a pandemic when a few people who are interested in music rather than a trendy-fashion chose to listen to music from outside their generation.
I gave up trying to recapture my youth years ago, when I couldn't be bothered getting my "natural" hair-colour from a bottle anymore and when walking down stairs became almost as tiring as walking up - I like being a adult, but I also enjoy childish things like fart gags and giving people wedgies - big deal - it does not affect the kind of music I like to hear - yes I still have the natural curiosity of a teenager - I still want to learn new things, experience new things, hear new music - and if that music is Bal Sagoth's "The Dark Liege of Chaos is Unleashed at the Ensorcelled Shrine of A'Zura Kai (The Splendour of a Thousand Swords Gleaming Beneath the Blazon of the Hyperborean Empire Part II)", Diamanda Galas singing "Insane Asylum" or the theme tune to "Postman Pat" then I really don't care who it was originally targetted at, why it was written or what anyone else thinks - it does not make me someone who never grew out of "it" or someone who decided not to let go of that part of their earlier life - I'm just someone who doesn't have all the answers yet and has never given up asking questions - and if still liking juvenile music is a side effect of that, then whoopie - I'm not dead yet.
Talking of asking questions, here's one: What does that leave us wrinklies with? AO-flippin'-R? No thanks; Livin' In The Past? Not me.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:25
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Hands up anyone who doesnt know Trademark's opinion of metal. Apparently David Attenborough came across a lost Amazonian tribe last week who were quite perturbed about his stance. Now where's that "flogging a dead horse" emoticon when we need it? |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:25
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"and I don't think that somehow, at a certain age you're required to not be rebellious/adventurous anymore and instead become docile and tame - or even arrogant and narrow-minded." You may not have meant it this way, but I have to ask, how does listening to metal demonstrate rebelliousness or adventurousness. I would have to say it does the exact opposite. It's like the Hot Topic crowd all running around in the exact same get ups saying "Look how non- conformist I am. Look how non- conformist I am. Look how non- conformist I am. Look how non- conformist I am. Look how non- conformist I am." It would be far more darting and adventurous to find exciting music made by and for adults.
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Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:30
| Hands up anyone who doesn't know Tony's position on my position. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:30
hahahhaha.. oOOOOHH OOOOHH OOOOHHH  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:32
Yes, it gets boring doesnt it... |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:33
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"AO-flippin'-R? No thanks; Livin' In The Past?" So am I to understand that metal is the only possible alternative to these? I know you don't believe that so it why ask?
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:34
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but never uninteresting....
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:34
Man u never give up, i've never seen such a stuborn one . you think many peolple listens to metal ,becouse is fashionable, rebelious touch, so guess what, WRONG ANSWER , It is art , and devine one. not just intended for teens, i will ask againg which is this music ''by and for adults.'' I'AM ALL EARS tell me ,
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Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:40
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"Man u never give up, i've never seen such a stuborn one ." "I'AM ALL EARS tell me" Not a chance. Typical youthful rebellion, trying to get someone else to do your work for you while you sit back and listen to metal.
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Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:46
man thank you for this night, i will never forget,truly. I love you. you made me laugh whole night,  i'am the happiest person in the world. Praise you. and continous and again
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:48
To illustrate that picking one narrow aspect of a more "adult" music, namely AOR, is the same futility as picking one narrow yet generalised opinion of Metal. Metal is no more the only possible alternative to AOR than AOR is the only possible alternative to Metal - but a genre by its very name is Rock Oriented towards Adults is the obvious opposite of your opinion of Metal.
(and AOR just happens to be the only genre of Rock I don't like at all in any way shape or form )------------- What? |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:52
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"Rock Oriented towards Adults" ROA is AOR spelled backwards. What are you trying to say?
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 17:55
Album Oriented Rock is the American definition - in the UK it was (pre-Wiki) known as Adult Oriented Rock  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 18:47
Oh well, better kill off all instances of artists like The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Dire Straits, Michael Jackson, Al DiMeola, Elvis, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Chick Corea, Miles Davis, Bruce Springsteen ++++ from our record collections then. All of these artists marketed towards a young, adolescent audience in their heyday, all of them signed to cater for a young adolescent audience. In fact, disregarding country, jazz, classical and gospel music I've only seen one brand of artists planned and heavily marketed towards a mature audience; heavily promoted towards the age group 40+ in my part of the woods for all time I can remember (and bought by the target group as well). So if marketing target group is a measure of mental adulthood; you should also subscribe to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQMEaMF_dFc&feature=related - THIS as the ultimate in music for the mature mind. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 18:52
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^^ catchy tune. the level of musicianship in that band probably exceeds the majority of the bands here. Check out that high tech drum kit.
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 19:05
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As far as musicianship goes, you may actually be correct. Many of the musicians in acts like that use/used to spend their spare time playing in rock and jazz outfits - in many cases of the experimental variety. Don't know if that is the case for the band I linked to there though. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: March 02 2009 at 19:48
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I've been listening to Metal for well over 20 years, it doesn't help me feel young and rebellious and non-conformist, in fact I feel very crotchety these days and pretty set in my old fashioned ways...
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 01:53
When I'm looking for new music I *never* think about how conformist it is. I also never pick music with the intention of showing it to others, or bragging with how rebellious or adventurous it is. "Look how non-conformist I am" ... I never ever thought that, let alone said it to anyone. To answer your question: I think that any piece of music which was made with the intention of creating a work of art rather than simply trying to please a target audience can be called adventurous ... maybe I chose the wrong word though, and we should simply call it "interesting". In the end most recordings that I like are a little bit of both ... I think that it's almost impossible for artists to ignore their fans, as much as they're trying to be independent. And about that last statement of yours: Metal is a mature genre. It was started more than 30 years ago. A lot of the metal I enjoy listening to was made by people who are older than me, and when they made the music the typical adolescent was not listening to metal but rap/hip-hop instead. You can call me childish, immature or "refusing to grow up" as long as you want, but I know that those attributes aren't what my collection of albums is about. I'm simply looking for high quality music regardless of style, and that - like it or not - has to include metal ... especially today. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 03:52
I'm afraid Trademark is not the one making a fool of himself in this thread, Angelmk. He uses metal as a relevant genre to raise an interesting and valid point. And no matter how grown up some of you are here, I believe there's some truth to what he writes. You take it so personal, that you have to pretend you're laughing you're head off. I think there's a lot of good things about "refusing to grow up", and not do/like what you're supposed to. As long as you don't refuse to grow a brain and broaden you're horizon too, I'd say its an healthy attitude. The only music I can think of more revolting than the music that has teenagers as their target group, is music targeted towards adults. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 04:47
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I guess that whenever you get passionate about something you risk making a fool of yourself ... after all, from an outsider's perspective, we're all music nerds. When people come to my place and see the 1,000 (give or take) CDs in my collection, they always look quite surprised. They're usually not impressed by it, but slightly alienated. I think that the point could even be taken another step further: Anyone who has a "serious" hobby as an adult is, in a way, refusing to grow up. Theoretically, as an adult, you should simply be interested in raising children and earning money, and maybe read some books, see some movies, have dinner with friends and spending money on expensive holiday trips. That's something I indeed have no intention of conforming to ... it's just not who I am. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 09:09
,
ok.as far as i'am cited here, There is no truth of Trademark's writing at all. It is a matter of taste after all , trademark doesn't like metal.fine with me , but should not say some unvalid arguments to back his theory , childish ,immature or likes he said all this one, i wouldn't call it valid point at all.when you have no proof to back up your statement, it cannot be considered as rightious.It is all a matter of opinion which in this Trademark case is false. it is not the matter of refusing to grow up, It is matter of Passion for the music, and that music(metal) is so diverse, so if you mark one genre to say numetal as immature ,childish, there are others genres which are not. And yes , i take music for serious, and in this case for personal, but i have to admit, last night was a night to remember, and very funny (to me,as long as trademark's statements are concerned) .I'am not attached to metal only ,for your consideration. i'am pretty open minded when music is concerned. Ok, we heard opinion from trademark about teen,childish music , so tell me which music is targetting adults? acording to you? |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 09:22
I thought i'am the only one who have this feeling. It is the same case with me, people came to me and see tons of music , they look suprised , but not in good way. they see all that collecting music of me as awkward case. And that is hobby, and attachement through years to that hobby is getting more intense, and i came to that step when i cannot but listen 5-6 albums a day ,(depends how much time i have) . so i don't think this will change through years, maybe not with this intensity , but i will always remain music lover .
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 10:33
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We can get philosophical on a higher plane and ask what really is meant by stuff like growing up, maturity, etc etc. Really, is it worth investing so much thought into a highly finite existence we will ultimately lead? As long as you are not a murderer or something, you are alright, period. Having said all that, I won't deny that a lot of metal is juvenile in the commonly understood sense. I really don't get why a lot of metal fans get so defensive about this, metal is not jazz or classical, and therefore it has a very accessible radio/TV facade and that facade has to dumb down to survive, it's inevitable. Besides, in a world where nobody is made to feel embarrassed about listening to AC DC, there's nothing to feel ashamed about listening to metal, I mean the whole deal, punkish/harsh vocals, jarring, distorted guitar, thumping, repetitive beats, obscene lyrics so on and so forth. But for every Cowboys from Hell album that lives up to the metal stereotype, we have everlasting masterpieces like Fates Warning's Awaken The Guardian and Disembowelment's Transcendence Into The Peripheral.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 10:44
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^ "a lot of metal" may be juvenile, but not all of it ... that's the whole point. When people come along and say "metal can't possibly offer something interesting for adults" then that's simply wrong from my point of view, and should be rectified IMO. And isn't that what this thread is supposed to do?
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 10:47
But it's difficult to stop people from generalizing about genres they don't understand...no harm in trying, sure, but it's hard. And besides, I am not about to stop listening to Bonded By Blood because it might be Trademark's idea of a juvenile album, it's a certified thrash metal classic and that seals it for me.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 10:59
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^ of course this thread won't make those who don't like metal change their mind ... but others, who haven't made up their mind about metal yet, might find the discussion interesting. It's a debate ... contrary views are presented, none of the participants change their position, but some viewers/readers might.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 11:12
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Oh, I don't object to the debate per se, and certainly not when it is so interesting , just saying we don't really have to justify what we like to anybody, especially when the anybody in question deliberately takes an antagonistic position. What;s beautiful about it to me is elusive to somebody else and sounds unwelcoming to him/her? Their loss? Maybe, much I care about it! It's just the same way as...I am Indian so I eat with my hand a lot though I can very well use a fork and a spoon when I need to and that people who cannot do without a fork and a spoon would think my eating habits awkward or even funny is not going to make me go and defend myself to them! As Abel Magwitch would have said, "Much your opinion, boy!"
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 11:24
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Regarding a former comment, AOR (as in Adult Oriented Rock) is aimed at adults (as Dean mentioned earlier), and of course there are other types of music particularly targeted at adults. I generally dislike AOR. I like too much music that is informed/ influenced by metal to dismiss it. I'm not a pure metal guy, but there are many bands that have metal elements that I enjoy considerably. As for juvenile music, Magma is one of my favourite bands, and I think that the music can pretty juvenile in its way. That's part of the fun. What I don't often like is music that seems to take itself too seriously, and comes across as juvenile, and music that seems aimed at appealing to teenage angst, particularly. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 03 2009 at 12:39
Here in Germany we eat using spoons, forks and knifes ... but we can still seem like barbarians to Americans for example, because we use the knife throughout the meal, while they are used to cutting all up in the beginning and then eat only using the fork. It's all relative ... ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 06:15
That wasn't the whole point for Trademark. He startet stating that he was gereralizing, to make a point: My feelings about metal in general can be summed up by the following There's nothing wrong in doing that. And in general I think he had a good point. Even though I actually love Cowboys From Hell and laugh at the more "sophisticated" Awaken The Guardian and Disembowelment's Transcendence Into The Peripheral. (silliest progmetal title I've seen so far) ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 07:29
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^ of course people can generalize ... but sometimes that invalidates your point. For example, when you say "metal in general is juvenile" then I would shrug and say "so is rock". *Maybe* metal is a little bit more juvenile than rock, but there's also punk rock, goth rock etc.. The more you generalize, the less meaningful your point gets. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 07:40
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one could argue that rock music is juvenile most mainstream rock is rather juvenile in fact most mainstream music is rather juvenile in fact |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 08:16
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some could even argue that prog is juvenile ... or even worse: That "non classical/jazz music as a hobby" is juvenile. Needless to say that I'm glad I'm juvenile ... ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 08:18
I don't agree. Its it more meaningful than deliberately "misunderstand" what someone is writing, and add opinions that wasn't originally there? ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 08:59
One cannot generalize to make a point, becouse the opinion comes from one person only it is not generaly accepted one, it is personal, not objective, specific and solely on the speaker(in this case trademark) so it is all right to say ''IMO metal sucks" but diferent thing to say IN GENERAL(according to who?) it is not widely accepted fact . it is pointless to generalize. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 09:31
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^Pure nonsense. All of it. Trademark wrote: My feelings about metal in general - meaning according to him, and no one else. With this he is telling everyone its his subjective opinion. Read properly. Of course you, him, I or anyone else can generalize to make a point. Infact its very hard to make a point without generalizing. When you write about something in general, you simply state something, and admit that there are exceptions. (And Trademark never wrote imo metal sucks. Thats just your own way of communicating) ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 09:43
Speaking in riddles doesn't help in serious discussions. What (and whom) are you referring to? |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: March 04 2009 at 09:50
ok, his opinion , who's else?!! . i wasn't objecting on that. In general FOR TRADEMARK, his way of generalizing of metal was wrong, saying childish, immature it is. that is his opinion, metal is diverse genre and cannot be generalized just like that(i've already said this but i feel the need to say it again). Wrong way of generalizing. ''you simply state something '' ok, but this statement of yours(in this case Trademark's must be backed with proof, one cannot state something and argue about it 2 days without giving proper reason for it, ) you have to be specific to make a point ,in our case is neccessary , you can say Nu metal sucks, Grind/death metal sucks.. but whole metal thing ''immature,juvenile,'' - my man have to say more than this to make a point. his disscussion was all based on this two assuption, or simliar of his. (which are false,IMO) another thing i didn't hear from trademark to name some exeption of metal for him, . I didn't say he did say that ''And Trademark never wrote imo metal suck'', i just gave an nameless example it wasn't intended on him.. but anyway we have to ask him about this one
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