Scorpions for Krautrock or prog related
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55145
Printed Date: December 01 2024 at 23:38
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Topic: Scorpions for Krautrock or prog related
Posted By: listen
Subject: Scorpions for Krautrock or prog related
Date Posted: January 30 2009 at 17:54
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The scorpions are well known for a number of catchy hard rock songs they released in the 80's but back in 1972 they released their first album titled "Lonesome Crow" on the famous Brain label (which signed a huge number of prog bands, check it out! - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_Records), which is a progressive psychedelic rock/hard rock affair that is not far from the sound of contemporary krautrock bands like Guru Guru, Gaa, etc. as well as bands like cream, black sabbath, early rush and a number of bands I can't pin down right yet (I just got it today). Besides belonging in the archives, the album is also a surprisingly good one (their well known stuff is not really my cup of tea, although I appreciate most of their music). listen especially to the 13 minute title track for progressive qualities (mostly tangential song structure, melodic development / mix of styles, mix of introspective and extraverted moods, and moderate use of psychedelic effects): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1BGCechX3Y" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch? The 10-minute title track from their second album Fly to the Rainbow also displays progressive elements: it is structured tangentially, with 3 parts, displays a mix of introspective and extraverted moods, and includes some classical guitar, psychedelic guitar and psychedelic effects: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGDefpjTqFY%20" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGDefpjTqFY To my ears, this reaches (at least) the level of progressiveness of the proggiest Black Sabbath, Journey, Led Zeppelin, The Who, Jimi Hendrix, Doors, etc, as well as many bands listed as Krautrock on this site, including Arktis, Dschinn, Jeronimo, Pacific Sound, etc. And lets remember to evaluate "progressiveness" in a krautrock sense as it does border on kraut. And on top of the above, the Scorpions were pioneers of metal.. ------------- Now is all there is. Be before you think! |
Replies:
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: January 30 2009 at 18:01
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I wouldn't say Krautrock by any means... Though for Prog-Related, for their first album, does make some sense, though I completely doubt for their inclusion. Their debut is definitely not as their late records, but still it doesn't make enough, IMO. It's barely related, which a whole lot of bands were rejected for the same thing. |
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: January 30 2009 at 18:03
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No. That's all that needs to be said. ------------- 
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Posted By: listen
Date Posted: January 30 2009 at 18:17
Have you listened to it? To my ears, this album is definitely no less progressive than the music of a LOT of bands on this site ------------- Now is all there is. Be before you think! |
MovingPictures07 wrote:Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 30 2009 at 18:19
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I am intrigued.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: January 30 2009 at 18:21
I despise the "If X is here, then Y must be" argument. We've made mistakes before (IMO), and the collabs at this try their best (yet I'm still entitled to my opinion). That does not justify more mistakes. I'm beginning to think that many people are considering anything above average pop music to be prog or progressive, and that's simply not the case. There's plenty of music in between art and pop music that does not belong here, even in Related. And yes, I heard it. I stand by my opinion. -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 30 2009 at 18:54
| At the moment I don't support the Scorps for inclusion to ProgRelated, however; their material with Michael Schenker and particularly Uli Roth is among the most important in progressing metal, especially the guitar-oriented tech forwarded by Randy Rhoads, Brian May, Schenker's solo work, EVH, and Yngwie. The Scorps were doing very high-end hard rock for the time, and their impact should not be underestimated. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: January 30 2009 at 21:38
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I believe that the Scorpions achieved way too much success for too many here at PA to truly admit that they really haven't listened to the album(s) that are cited as supporting their candidacy (no matter the sub-genre). As for the "X is here, why not Y" arguement ... why is it acceptable to use comparisons and references to other bands already here when some bands are proposed, but not others ? It can be a valid way of supporting your case either way. The worst part - it comes back to my first comment - if the group you propose is or was popular, then don't expect to be able defend your submission by mentioning other comparable bands already in PA. As this discussion progresses ( or regresses as with too many other commercially successful acts), ask each detractor is they have listened to Lonesome Crow, or the albums that the Scorpions made with Uli Roth. Then follow up with the question as to what albums have they actually heard from the Scorpions ... Then wonder why frustrations abound with anyone but those who suggest the obscure for inclusion ... ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: January 31 2009 at 08:32
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Now that´s talk I can relate to debrewguy. Many people commenting on suggestions haven´t listened to anything but the MySpace songs ( if even that) and seldom the albums that the one suggesting the artist mentions as being their most progressive. This is particularly true in the case of famous artists IMO. It´s such a struggle to get anyone to evaluate artists like that. Personally I pick my fights and leave the hard ones alone ( with a few exceptions of course). I simply don´t have time to discuss for hours and hours if it´s not a band I feel something special for. It´s really a shame. Valuable collaborator time is wasted.
About the Scorpions I only know their eighties stuff so I won´t comment on their inclusion here but only hope that the ones evaluating this suggestion listens to that first album as the guy suggesting the artist suggests.
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Posted By: fusionfreak
Date Posted: January 31 2009 at 08:49
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No!1st album is good with progressive moments(the 13 minute track is a proof) but Scorpions are not Krautrock at all:no psychedelic(and sometimes drug induced)jams,no electro acoustic effects,apparently no political commitment,moreover they seem to lack madness and don't feel like being visionary.I also would like to add that I recently watched a documentary about Krautrock where Scorpions were considered as being part of this movement.Sorry for saying that but Scorpions have nothing to do with the likes of Can,Ash Ra Tempel,Amon Duul 2,Guru Guru......By the way Scorpions took part in a french TV program(it was in the nineties)called Club Dorothée where they played part of their bullsh*t such as Still Loving You! ------------- I was born in the land of Mahavishnu,not so far from Kobaia.I'm looking for the world of searchers with the help from crimson king |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: January 31 2009 at 10:40
| No way! I don't think having a 13 min track is enough argument to get them here and even on Krautrock which will be totally out of context. The rolling stones also have an 11 minute track |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 31 2009 at 11:13
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"Lonesome Crow" is a good song, anyway. And "Leave Me" It's really dated, though with a 60's sound. I would have pegged them as earlier than 1972 recordings. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 31 2009 at 11:42
True - I saw then in '77 and they were well on their way to being a successful hard rock band by then. I've never heard Lonesome Crow, but will if they are proposed for Prog Related.
The IfXthenY argument is valid for highlighting a band for suggestion, but not for evaluation and subsequent addition. For example if band "X" is here then perhaps we should consider band "Y" for inclusion, however, once Band "Y" has been dentified as a contender they must be evaluated on their own merits without the association to band "X". To that end The Scorpions must be evaluated on their own, and not in relation to any bands already included, and using the albums from the appropriate era.
When it comes to Popular vs. Obscure I think the reasoning is self-evident - ifXthenYcan either be used positively or negatively - for most Popular artists it is often used in it's unhelpful negative form by comparing them with yet another well known and possibly controversial band, while for Obscure bands it is more often used in a helpful positive form to give the evaluator a reference point to compare them too.
It is sometimes the case that Band "X" is mentioned because the person proposing Band "Y" does not approve of the addition of Band "X" and sees Band "Y" as being more valid as a result. This is not a direct musical comparision, but more an emotional one - we tend not get this emotional comparision with Obscure bands.
Of course, if you mention two Popular bands you double your chances of getting a reaction because more people would have heard of one of them - mention two Obscure bands and you halve your chances because fewer people would have heard of both of them.
If both band "X" and band "Y" are already accepted and band "Y" scheduled for inclusion, then the IfXthenY argument can be used in the placing of band "Y" into an appropriate category.
Sad but true - then listen saying "this album is definitely no less progressive than the music of a LOT of bands on this site" is not really mentioning comparable bands and does need some deeper qualifiaction or additional verification.
Another sad fact is many suggestions for Obscure bands are overlooked completely - there have been 51 unanswered threads in Suggest New Bands and 66 in Unsigned Bands over the past year - that's before we start counting the number of suggestions that have replies but never made it to the evaluation stage. At least Popular bands have the head-start of having a ground-swell of opinion that results in discussion in the first place even if that means they are hampered by their reputation. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: January 31 2009 at 12:49
German =/= Krautrock  As for PR, I can't say. I've actually never heard an early scorpions record. Atavachron is right though - Schenker and Roth should definitely be evaluated - I would say that Roth's take on Neo-Classical definitely deserves to be here. |
Posted By: Scratchy
Date Posted: February 03 2009 at 03:18
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I am a fan of the Scorpions.They are a very difficult group to classify really,even within each period.The Lonesome Crow album group was basically a different group than when Uli Jon Roth took over.When he took over the guitar duties the Scorpions had basically disbanded but emalgamated with Uli's Dawn Road group (3 members) with the 2 remaining Scorpion members.The sound changed from their hard Psychodelic sound with jazz/classical avant-garde guitar playing from 17 year old Michael Schenker to a hard progressive rock / rock & roll fusion (with Uli).Uli Jon Roth's guitar playing was absolutely oustanding however http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.ericclapton.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&usg=ALkJrhh2gxezCm7wLulyl0CG0%20 - Eric Patrick Clapton, http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.jimi-hendrix.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&usg=ALkJrhgchorMV3tme2am9n09%20 - James Marshall Hendrix, John Dawson Winter III (johnny winter) http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - Jean-Baptiste Reinhardt , http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.janakkerman.nl/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&usg=ALkJrhjTAZGRKlfpSg_2RAaYv0%20 - Jan Akkerman , http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.jeffbeck.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&usg=ALkJrhh_W2rn69Ro7I9bfVhB5OTy%20 - Jeffery Arnold Beck , http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.yehudimenuhin.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&usg=ALkJrhipTIyCYVGVfBeOzvE%20 - Andrés Segovia Torres http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - Jean-Baptiste Reinhardt, http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.janakkerman.nl/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&usg=ALkJrhjTAZGRKlfpSg_2RAaYv0%20 - Jan Akkerman, http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.jeffbeck.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&usg=ALkJrhh_W2rn69Ro7I9bfVhB5OTy%20 - Jeffery Arnold Beck, http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.yehudimenuhin.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&usg=ALkJrhipTIyCYVGVfBeOzvE%20 - Andrés Segovia Torres http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - Yehudi Menuhin (violin), http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - Frédéric François Chopin being his influences.The rhythm playing of Rudolph Schenker & the percussion was basic hard rock.As time went on the group was influenced by the increasingly more popular metal sound developed by Judas Priest etc. which lead to Uli Jon Roth leaving the group in 1978. The Lovedrive album actually has Uli Jon Roth & a returning Michael Schenker.This album had some tracks that would interest Progressive metal fans but also had basic 80's style power metal as well.They gradually developed a more commercial metal sound from there on.Which is the time I started to loose interest in them, although Animal Magnitism still had some adventurous musical elements on it , athough with a doom laden feel (Meine's vocal problems adding to the Doominess - range limited at top end).Since then my only real interest with them has been the superb vocals of Klaus Meine although lyrics are dumbed down since this period.
In 1973 Uli Jon Roth liked these albums :-
http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - Wilhelm Furtwängler, http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - Johannes Brahms, "Violin Concerto" Title 77, D major ( http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - Joconda De Vito, http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - RAI Turin Orchestra 1952 was estimated to be record.)
http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - Herbert von Karajan http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - Ludwig van Beethoven , http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - Berliner Philharmoniker 1962 http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - Herbert von Karajan, http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - Ludwig van Beethoven, Symphony No. 5 C minor works 67 "fate", http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - (Berliner Philharmoniker 1962 March or April 1982 and recorded 11 or recording is unknown) http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.jimi-hendrix.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&usg=ALkJrhgchorMV3tme2am9n09%20 - Jimi Hendrix , http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - AXIS: BOLD AS LOVE , http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - ELECTRIC LADY LAND , http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - BAND OF GYPSIES http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.jimi-hendrix.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&usg=ALkJrhgchorMV3tme2am9n09%20 - Jimi Hendrix, The http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - AXIS: BOLD AS LOVE, and the http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - ELECTRIC LADY LAND, and the http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - BAND OF GYPSIES, http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.jeffbeck.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&usg=ALkJrhh_W2rn69Ro7I9bfVhB5OTy%20 - Jeff Beck , http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - BLOW BY BLOW http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.jeffbeck.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&usg=ALkJrhh_W2rn69Ro7I9bfVhB5OTy%20 - Jeff Beck, The http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - BLOW BY BLOW, http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.yesworld.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&usg=ALkJrhifRw8lX5OBLgSlesd5K5wc%20 - YES , http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - RELAYER ( http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - The Gates of Delirium ) http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.yesworld.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&usg=ALkJrhifRw8lX5OBLgSlesd5K5wc%20 - YES, the http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - RELAYER (especially http://66.102.9.101/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Soseki/7500/vita.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTan%2By%2BBwlch%2BManor%2Buli%2Bjon%2Broth%26num%3D30%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_enGB277GB277&%20 - "The Gates of Delirium") |
Posted By: Scratchy
Date Posted: February 03 2009 at 03:41
|
Lonesome Crow album period (1972) - psychodelic / space rock
1973 - 1978 period - heavy prog
1979 - 1981 - power metal / proto progressive metal
1981 - 2000's - power metal
|
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 03 2009 at 07:02
Was the bullsh*t part really necessary? I wonder why some people simply can't show at least a minimum amount of respect for the musicians involved.  |
Posted By: fusionfreak
Date Posted: February 03 2009 at 07:58
|
I know Uli Jon Roth and Michael Schenker are gifted musicians.Moreover I like Scorpions first three albums.It's just that I don't like when people who can make good music decide to play songs only for the money and it was the case in this children TV program.Moreover I'm not sure that musicians always respect their audiences.To conclude I think that going to concerts and buying cds is a proof of respect! ------------- I was born in the land of Mahavishnu,not so far from Kobaia.I'm looking for the world of searchers with the help from crimson king |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 03 2009 at 08:09
| Sorry to contradict you, but if you don't like an album, you have the right not to buy it - just as the musicians have the right to play whatever music they see fit. I may dislike commercial music, but let's be honest for once - playing 'for the money' is certainly not the same as peddling drugs or weapons, or trafficking in human beings. |
Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: February 03 2009 at 08:25
|
Lonesome Crow is outstanding and Fly to the Rainbow could be included in the Prog Related discussion as well. Both are great and worth checking out. In Trance is good as well but the beginning of their transformation to losing any prog influences. I loved this band for a long time, favoring their early stuff. Then they released Crazy World and that was the end. If that album ever got reviewed on here, I would probably throw up in my mouth a little.
------------- Biggles was in rehab last Saturday |
Posted By: fusionfreak
Date Posted: February 03 2009 at 12:04
------------- I was born in the land of Mahavishnu,not so far from Kobaia.I'm looking for the world of searchers with the help from crimson king |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: February 03 2009 at 12:22
|
@Fusionfreak: I saw the documentary you talked about and it was made clear by the commentary that Scorpions weren't part of the "Kraut-rock" movement. They were included just to show that SOME of the German bands of the 70's managed to encounter and keep commercial success. Nothing more. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: February 03 2009 at 12:31
|
So, the debate comes down to "started out with prog aspects (Lonesome Crow), Fly to the Rainbow has Suite length and structured song (Title song), include the fact that until Roth's departure, each album featured one or a few acoustic tunes that could be compared in style and setting to those found on Uriah Heep's first few releases (come away melinda). Krautrock is a no-brainer. The Scorps were never that "pure" in their sound, ever. Heavy Prog might be a stretch, but should their validity here be based on the first 1/3 of their releases, or do we condemn them for their more radio friendly stylings on later albums. Although, if you listen to the song Animal Magnetism from that same album, that aspect of their music was part of their sound until the halfway point of their collection. Prog Related is a good fit because Yes, they do have much in their music that would be of interest to prog fans. Not all prog fans. But then most if not all PR bands can't claim that either. Forget "Still Loving You". Kansas was not judged based on "Play The Game". Miles Davis was not included becaude of "the Birth of Cool". If you want to present a valid arguement against, you must know what music was on Lonesome Crow. At the very least, some the next 3-4 if you want to be fair. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 03 2009 at 12:53
As far as I am concerned calling their music "bullsh*t" sounds disrespectful, no matter how many albums you own ... but I'm well aware that many other users don't mind swearing and calling artists names as much as I do. BTW: I know that song very well ... personally I think that it's one of the best songs *ever*. It's simply very well crafted, and especially the vocals/guitar leads and the rhythm guitar arrangements are amazing. I honestly don't know a better metal ballad. I know that many people will find it "kitschy" and way over the top, but IMO that has nothing to do with how good it is objectively, from a musician's point of view. I also don't mind when artists try to please their listeners or to increase their album sales ... as long as the music is great. I honestly see no big difference to the other extreme, when bands try to be "non-conformist" at any cost. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: February 03 2009 at 13:05
Blackout!!! Blackout!!!! i really have a Blackout!!
 -------------  |
Posted By: Seyo
Date Posted: February 05 2009 at 14:22
| Krautrock, no way! Even if their debut was influenced by Kraut, their later career is anything but prog... |
Posted By: listen
Date Posted: February 05 2009 at 15:11
But we're not assessing them based on their later work, now are we? Genesis wasn't included based on their 80's pop. ------------- Now is all there is. Be before you think! |
Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 09:21
|
Helloween for Krautrock? They're german too... that should be enough No, seriously, I've seen the material, I don't think they intended to sound progressive at all... That's my useless opinion. It's curious, but I still can't understand what's the purpose of expanding that 'prog related' subgenre with over-known artists, I mean, that's just a bunch of disconnected artists IMHO, so what's the use of expanding that genre? And do you think anybody needs to 'know' Scorpios? Well, this is just the opinion of an outsider... ------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 09:28
You know, even if I've always been a supporter of PR, now I have to agree with you. Unfortunately, my attempts to raise awareness of the problem in the CZ fell flat as usual. Prog Related, as it is now, is not really useful or productive, and I for one have decided to refuse to submit any bands rejected by Heavy Prog for inclusion in PR. I think a different approach would be necessary when dealing artists who have released one or two progressive albums in the space of an un-prog career... Unfortunately, this is not my site, and I am not really keen on beating my head against the wall any longer. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:02
| Speaking in more general terms ( I don´t know enough about The Scorpions to say if my below opinion aplies to them) about Prog-related I have the opinion that even if a band that have released thirty albums that are non-prog and only one that qualifies as prog-related they should be on PA. It´s important to document that one album. As long as it´s made very clear in the "Why is this artist included in PA" section of the bio why the artist was included. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:09
|
ROTFLMAO seriously. @Raff: I hope you find a way to take this easier ...  ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:13
Thanks! Unfortunately, I am afraid I'm too old to change my ways .... |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:19
With all due respect, NO FREAKING WAY. It's bad enough we have to do this with an artist with one prog album and a whole bunch of non-prog in the discog. If an artist has virtually an entire catalog that has nothing to do with prog but one finds a single album that is sorta maybe a little bit related to prog, then sorry, they don't make the cut. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:26
| It should be a case to case evaluation as it is today. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:40
Agreed. As much as many users here resent the "if X is here then Y must be added too" rule ... it's valid. If you add one artist that is only vaguely related to prog on one album of many, then for consistency alone you'll have to add all other artists which meet the same requirements. I think the solution must be that *if* such artists are added, they must be of special importance from a prog standpoint. I don't see this type of relevance for Scorpions ... nor for Helloween. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:41
| I trust the admin team makes the right cuts. The filter that means that only special collabs can suggest artists to the admin team for prog-related is pretty efficient IMO. This means that a lot of thought has been put into the proces of adding a prog-related artist to the archives. It´s not all additions I agree with, but you win some and you lose some. We are all victims to subjective opinions and no matter how much you try to be objective when evaluating an artist lots of factors will have effect on your decision. As it is today the prog-related suggestions go through two filters and I think that should provide enough safety that the right bands are added to PA. As Raff said she refuse to submit any bands rejected by Heavy Prog for inclusion in PR and that´s filter enough for me. Personally I think it´s a bit hard and I hope there are a few exceptions but generally I agree with that view. We should generally respect the teams decisions and by very careful that we don´t undermine the great work of those teams. But there are exceptions IMO and that´s what we need Prog-related for. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:51
| There are reasons for our position as HP team. The lack of a clear policy is compounded by the fact that, especially in the early Seventies, there were literally OODLES of bands (mainly in the heavy psych vein) that were in some way or the other related to heavy prog. If we decided to submit one for inclusion in PR; we would probably have to add the whole lot of them - and I don't think this would be in any way productive for the site, beyond inflating a category that is much too confused as things are. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 10:55
|
^ perhaps you could narrow down the list to the 5 most important bands. I think this would be something that people could understand ...
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 11:18
|
But are the Scorpions really just another case of "too well known, shouldn't be here for that fact" ? I keep seeing arguements as to the lack of merit, and how this can open the floodgates to poor choices But I don't see any views from detractors that mention Lonesome Crow, nor the Uli Roth era albums. AND those are the reasons that the Scorpions are being considered for. True, there are tons of early 70s hard rockers that had aspects of their sound that could lead to being suggested for admission here at PA. But then, did Atomic Rooster or others face the "kinda mighta, almost were sorta prog for a bit, then went back to basics" debate ? Check out the earlyalbums. Again, remind yourself that the Scorpions are not being rated on the album "Savage Amusement" . This is really the point fo contention. Not whether certain popular bands some abhor should be excluded simply on the basis that they have enough fame. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 11:27
|
Disclaimer: I don't know the Scorpions material at all, save for the odd handful of popular FM radio tracks some 20 years ago. But to me it sounds like a case where they should either make it into Heavy Prog (or whatever) if their early output (the oft cited Lonesome Crow album) is deemed to be "fully" prog, or not make the cut. As I said, it's one thing for an artist to have little prog output to be included in a prog category - if a band has a few "prog-related" (whatever that is supposed to even mean) albums amidst a catalog that's quite removed from anything prog rock, they shouldn't be here. I have no problem saying "Prog or Bust" to a good many of these types of artists. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 11:41
| I think that´s a way too black and white rethoric ( I´m not sure that´s the right word but I guess you get the meaning), but your entitled to your opinion. Some of these artists are borderline cases but personally I think that having bands like Roxy Music, Kate Bush, Queen, Black Sabbath and other related artists on PA is a great treat. I´ve discovered some real treasures in that genre. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 11:50
| But I'm not talking about Queen, who was on the very borderline of prog in pretty much the entirety of their catalog - I'm talking about acts that are deemed to have some (or even a little) prog-related content, and then pretty much nothing close to prog. Bands that are on the margins of a category that itself lives on the margins of progressive rock music just don't belong. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 12:22
|
Or, to use David's immortal words, "related to Prog-Related"... The paradox is that currently we have bands in PR that have released a number of fully prog albums, and some who are there with much less valid credentials (such as having been members of prog bands). I don't think that is fair to the first category at all... Acts like Queen, Roxy Music, Deep Purple (who are in PP), even Black Sabbath are put on the same level as those who were thrown in PR after a cleanup session because they could not be deleted. |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 13:49
|
I say that Scorpions are not HP, are not PR so?
They are a Hard Rock band with prog overtones not enough to be PR and only the 70's albums.
So i suggest to not suggest to add to PA
------------- |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 13:52
Tell us what bands are those?
------------- |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 13:57
I´m a bit curious too .
|
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 13:57
It's a hypothetical, Alberto, but would be applied to the Scorpions if their early output is deemed to be prog-related at best. Again, I shall not take a definitive stance on the precise matter of the Scorpions inclusion because I'm not familiar with their work, but wanted to use this space to address this more general issue. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 14:38
http://www.emusic.com/album/Scorpions-Lonesome-Crow-MP3-Download/11280928.html - http://www.emusic.com/album/Scorpions-Lonesome-Crow-MP3-Download/11280928.html Only 30 second samples, but if you listen to them all in a row you get a pretty good impression of the album (3 1/2 minutes). ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 14:40
thanks |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 15:03
|
I don't know if it's been mentioned again, but I posted some "Lonesome Crow" vids on the first page. Check out this link for videos --> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=Scorpions+Lonesome+Crow - http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=Scorpions+%22Lonesome+Crow%22
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 15:13
|
The problem is also that Lonesome Crow and Fly to the Rainbow are not full out prog. If they only made LC, FTTR, In Trance and Virgin Killer they would still be a tough choice to put on here.
------------- Biggles was in rehab last Saturday |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 15:16
|
1. they don't need a "full out prog" album to qualify as prog related 2. Their 80s albums don't make their 70s albums less prog(related) But like I said above: adding them would be a tough decision, because probably most people think like you. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 15:25
|
^So what is your position, Mike? If it was up to you, would they be on? I gave up caring who gets on as soon as Led Zeppelin made it and I realized I have no voice in the matter. But as I stated before, if I ever saw a review of Crazy World on here, I might go crazy myself. ------------- Biggles was in rehab last Saturday |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 15:30
We have no voice either, John, don't worry about that. Personally, I couldn't care less about who is added or not - I have a very broad-minded outlook, and I would never start a crusade against the addition of X or Y. However, it would be nice if sometimes people's opinions were listened to - especially when they come from those who work for free on behalf of the site. |
Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 15:35
|
Raff, I am just curious if the scenario was that Scorpions only released the first 4 albums and then disbanded. Would it be a no-brainer then? I think they would be on a level with the Black Sabbaths and LZ's of the world and probably get on. And then be hailed in reviews as one of the best PR bands of the 70's. But like everything else, context is important. My vote would be no, but I feel I lean more toward the exclusionary side. ------------- Biggles was in rehab last Saturday |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 15:53
|
The Scorpions had one Prog-Related (maybe) album; Lonesome Crow then moved off to full-on hard rock. I've been a fan of The Scorps for over 30 yrs (well at least until Animal Magnetism) and they simply do not have enough to make them a good addition here. Drifting Son and Fly To The Rainbow have more to do with Hendrix than they do to Prog or even Led Zep. |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 16:22
Good question BTW ------------- |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 17:02
|
I think I said before that if it was up to me they would not be added - mainly because of the genre per artist limitation. I know that in the past I supported the addition of artists who only had one prog album (and I still do), but for prog-related, and considering that it was only their largely unknown debut album and they radically changed style after that ... it's simply too remote a relation to prog. But luckily, it's not up to me ...  ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 23:05
|
For Krautrock=lol. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: February 06 2009 at 23:41
|
Seriously though, I'm like many others in the Collaborator position that is really hating on the prog related thing. We get pages and pages of moaning and groaning about well known bands that (in this particular case IMO) are barely prog related, but people don't seem to bother going out of their to find bands that are true prog bands simply because they are underground and it actually,GOD FORBID, REQUIRES ACTUAL EFFORT on their part. And for the record, I don't support them possibly being added, but hey, not up to me. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 07 2009 at 00:56
|
No comments on Krautrock, not familiar with it. Heavy prog? Maybe just maybe for the first five albums. PR? Definitely! Mind, I am one of those who think if the PR category exists, it should only be for obscure artists that play music related to prog, not for well known bands that everybody in PA likes that incidentally have prog elements. But it's not upto me, so I won't object to that. Having thus accepted PR as a category, the legitimacy of Scorpions for it should be plain to all but those who are judging them by their late 80s-early 90s sellout crapfests. As a devoted Genesis fan, I want to state here that Scorpions's early to mid 80s material is still superior to what Genesis were doing contemporarily, so I don't think the fact that the band changed their style radically - or not so radically actually - is a valid argument. I mean, how would you like that Genesis was never on PA because of their 80s albums and therefore you never discovered the awesomeness of Hackett? Could have happened to me, because without PA, I would have never known about Genesis. Now, coming to the 70s albums, which is the REAL bone of contention, Lonesome Crow and to a lesser extent Fly To The Rainbow have undeniable prog qualities at least as much as adjacent Sabbath, who are incidentally on PA. From thereon till Taken By Force, it is more hard rock/heavy metal with elements of prog creeping in only fleetingly. Whether this is a good enough case for them to be in PR or not is upto those who have to decide to decide; it's not upto me, but being familiar with the band I have stated their case. As for importance, their importance to the German metal and in turn the prog metal scene cannot be overstated; Uli Roth inspired a legion of European metal guitarists, including one Malmsteen. There it is, I have said what I want to say, I am not going to question the judgment of other users because I have no right to. I am indifferent to whether Scorpions are added to PR or not, but I don't think it is such a ridiculous suggestion as some people have made it out to be, so I have stated my views. After that, we can agree to disagree.
|
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 07 2009 at 01:15
Having a review for St Anger isn't worse?
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: February 07 2009 at 01:15
Good point |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 07 2009 at 01:19
That was real fast, by the way.
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Posted By: listen
Date Posted: February 08 2009 at 00:13
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By the way, only 2 of the 5 people who played on 'Lonesome Crow' ever played again with the scorpions. They also had a different producer (Conny Plank, of Guru Guru, Cluster, Os Mundi fame) and from all their subsequent albums, and were on a different label (Brain).
------------- Now is all there is. Be before you think! |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: February 08 2009 at 01:12
| Man I´ve gotten curious. I think I´m gonna take a listen to that Lonesome Crow album. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: February 08 2009 at 21:17
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Look, we're adding bands with short careers with only a few albums. And among their music, one album features "prog" or "prog-like" songs that total less than half of the number of tunes on said album.. Are they more worthy of inclusion under Heavy Prog or Prog related because of their obscurity ? And if so, let's rename and re-define some categories to "prog-related genre", "due to obscurity sub-genre","with passing references to other beloved kinda prog bands sub-sub-genre". Otherwise, the X is here, why not Y arguement is going to be used even more. Simple ratios of progginess applied to the unknown bands can be easily and deservedly applied to the well known ones. If 2/15 (2 out of every 15 songs) is enough to admit group X, then group Y is in, no matter that X put out 3 LPs, and Y put out 12. And let's face it, the "pure/truly/out & out" one prog album standard would mean more than a few of these obscure inclusions would not pass muster either. The Scorpions until Lovedrive had a decent claim to being "prog related". And the X vs Y logic serves up this truth very well. Forget about Crazy World. Just the same as some pass over some RIO bands that play cartoon music. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Seyo
Date Posted: February 09 2009 at 09:35
Yes, but the bulk of Genesis' most creative output is prog, while the bulk of Scorpions' work is straightforward heavy metal bordering on its mainstream edge.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 09 2009 at 09:56
But how exactly is what Scorpions did from the 80s onwards their most creative output either? Maybe someone who is not acquainted with their ENTIRE output would feel so, but any fan of their Roth era will say that the period upto Taken By Force was their most productive period artistically. And it has nothing to do with Roth's presence of abscence, he wasn't on the Lonesome Crow lineup to begin with, they just changed after TBF - whether for better or worse depends on one's preferences. Where I will agree though is that even with Roth, they certainly weren't pure prog by any means but the question then is which category are they to be voted for because for PR, they don't have to be prog, just related to it.
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Posted By: listen
Date Posted: February 09 2009 at 17:45
let me know what you think! ------------- Now is all there is. Be before you think! |
Posted By: listen
Date Posted: February 09 2009 at 17:52
True. However, only 2 of the 5 people who played on 'Lonesome Crow' ever played again with the scorpions. They also had a different producer from all their subsequent albums (Conny Plank, member of Guru Guru, Cluster, Os Mundi and producer of many famous krautrock acts), and were on a different label (Brain, which also released over 50 notable prog albums). To this extent they perhaps should not be considered the same band as that which produced the Scorpion's future music. Regardless, I think their first album should be assessed on its own merits.
------------- Now is all there is. Be before you think! |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: February 09 2009 at 19:37
Ritchie Blackmore would have disagreed with you in a 1982 interview in Kerrang. Rainbow was headlining Reading ( I think), and he found that the Scorpions, among all the bands that played there , were THE one who were beyond the norm for hard rock. This was just before Blackout. So they would have been playing material from Lovedrive & Animal Magnetism (if you listen to the title song, you might reconsider the "straightforward heavy metal" tag), plus a smattering of Uli Roth era songs. Again, the arguement is made that the early career means nothing because they morphed into an intelligent AND radio friendly Hard Rock band. Heck , Wind of Change is no Dust in the Wind. But it is a hell of a great song, with intelligent and well written lyrics that stray far outside the typical "blooze" wordsmithing that overwhelms most metal & hard rock. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: February 09 2009 at 19:43
Me too ! I once read a review that said it sounded like Deep Purple kind of rock ??? ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Seyo
Date Posted: February 10 2009 at 03:52
OK, probably I was wrong to use the term "most creative output". I admit I know Scorpions mostly by their horrible mainstream hit songs of the 80s (including sleezy ballads like Winds of Change of course!) and was under impression that it was their creative and commercial peak.
Now I really want to hear their 70s stuff, in particular the debut. But, again I am very suspicious about them being considered prog band AS A WHOLE. It is again question of definition of "prog genres" and how to fit in.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 10 2009 at 04:40
The only one of their albums that's prog all the way would be Lonesome Crow. Fly To The Rainbow is sort of like Salisbury, the big title track firmly slotting in prog but the rest more in the nature of hard rock/proto metal. I certainly agree that Scorpions qualifying for even heavy prog is a real struggle but for PR, imo, they have the credentials. All said, their 70s albums are worth listening to for what they are, regardless of how prog or not they are. Jimi Hendrix-inspired guitar jams, punishing metal numbers and gorgeous, tearing ballads, the 70s Scorps had everything one could ask for in an excellent hard rock/heavy metal band from the 70s. I know, I know, I am going to listen to Virgin Killer for the nth time today! |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 10 2009 at 06:00
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OK, since you've been mentioning Heavy Prog in this thread, I will tell you that I am willing to give the Scorpions' early output a fair evaluation (I know a couple of songs from those albums, no more) as long as my teammates agree with that. However, having them included in HP would raise the questions of other bands with the same number of prog albums (or even more) who are stuck in Prog Related. I don't like any kind of unfair treatment, but unfortunately I see it more and more. Probably, as Debrewguy said in a previous post, it has to do with a band or artist's profile... The more high-profile they are, the less we are willing to include them in a fully prog subgenre, even if they would fully qualify. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: February 10 2009 at 10:46
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I think that Prog Related is starting to show its' intended nature as the place for bands that are not quite prog, but of interest to prog fans (not all, but usually many). Raff makes a good point about other bands that are in PR. And while there may be some that deserve a reconsideration, it would only add to the workload that currently backlogged. My suggestion - let's leave it open to the community / admin / collabs to come forth if they feel they have compelling NEW arguements to present. I would dare guess that most aren't going to re-visit too many. And of course, if we were wrong, it never hurts to allow our members to share their opinions (or almost never). Again, with the emphasis on NEW info, no re-hashing of old debates. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 10 2009 at 11:04
I don't think that high profile is bad per se ... it's more when the high profile parts of the discography are blatantly non prog but they had an obscure progressive phase, which is the case with the Scorpions. On a related note: When I first discovered this website, I didn't even know Genesis as a prog band. I only knew songs like I Can't Dance or Jesus He Knows Me from MTV. Seeing them listed as a prog band seemed odd to me, since I knew many others (Spock's Beard, Pink Floyd, Dream Theater, Fates Warning, ...) and the styles were so completely different. I guess that many people will have this kind of feeling regarding the Scorpions. You can download Lonesome Crow from eMusic.com (I linked to it in a previous post) ... the album is quite an interesting listen for anyone who's interested in Krautrock or Psychedelic/Space Rock and who's familiar with their later output. Sure, only two members of the original band made it into the 70s, but it were the two most important ones (Rudolf Schenker / Klaus Meine), who always have been the core of the band. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 10 2009 at 11:13
I've never seen that category any other way. If those bands were "quite prog", they would be listed in a proper prog genre (Crossover Prog for example). And when they're "of interest" to prog fans, there must be some *relation* to prog in their music. Of course there could also be a relation by band member, but IMO that's not really enough. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 10 2009 at 11:27
This is what I said earlier. One can't hold it against Scorpions that the WORLD knows them on account of Hurricane or Wind of Change because the world also knows Genesis only on account of those songs you mentioned, not Supper's Ready or Musical Box. I think being progheads, the folks here forget that most of the time. The only time I ever got to see a video of Yes on TV, it was of - you guessed it! - Owner of a Lonely Heart. Even with a more popular band like Pink Floyd, it's their decidedly non prog songs like Brick in the wall-2 and WYWH that are popular, not Echoes, not Dogs. I don't hear much raving for Shine On outside the prog fans/die hard Floydians circle either. I am not saying all this automatically goes to make Scorpions's case stronger, just that it is ridiculous to judge them by the output that made them world famous when the same test would fail with many big names of prog. As I have said before, I think Scorpions's case for any category other than PR is tenuous and it is not particularly of interest to me whether they get accepted in that category but as a devoted Scorpions fan, I would still like to do my bit to correct others where they are wrong and clarify misinformed opinions about the band.
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Posted By: Trianium
Date Posted: October 19 2009 at 16:37
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I think Scorpions should be in Prog Related. In the Seventies they were really an interesant an original band, 'Lonesome Craw' has some Krautrock, Purple, Floyd and Hendrix elements. 'Fly to the Rainbow' and 'In Trance' are pure psychodelic-hard rock and in 'taken by force' songs like 'we'll burn sky' or 'polar nights' are big influence to Progressive metal....ok, in the 80's Scorpions are sh*t...but they were great in the seventies. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfn6z6HYZj8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iphAa0PiCbI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnlKXzVw1RA In these songs i found some prog elements. |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: October 26 2009 at 06:36
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It's funny this "When X is here, then Y should be here too. And Y deserves it even more" argument. Have you ever considered why X managed to get here in first place ? If there are less progressive bands than for example Scorpions, why they are here ? From what reason. Anyway, it's like Pearl Jam. Good, legend, but it's not here yet, is it ? ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 13:57
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While I have to say that Lonesome Crow on it's own (and possibly Fly To The Rainbow) would fit in this site, I would generally be against their inclusion. But then, I would also be against Zeppelin, The Door, And Sabbath being included as well, but they are here Honestly, if prog related is supposed to be non-prog music that might be of interest to prog fans, the Scorpions 70's material (at least) fits that perfectly. |
Posted By: Wiktor Hatif
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 17:43
exactly, and you can find such artists on PA, example: one album of Jose Cid http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=669 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=669 and now look at his full discography: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Cid#Discos_.28selec.C3.A7.C3.A3o.29 - http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Cid#Discos_.28selec.C3.A7.C3.A3o.29 exactly ;) I just started a similar case, where the two first albums of the band are progressive, but I guess in my case the progressivity is much more clear http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=69166 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=69166 ------------- "Ffffaaahhh, seeko baaaaaa Neeeeee toe, kare lo yeahhh Sa sa sa sa saa! Fssss Drrrrrrrrr bo ki! Rapateeka! do go taaaam Rapateeka! do go tchaa" - "Atom Heart Mother" Pink Floyd/Ron Geesin |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:59
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I don't know about krautrock, maybe prog related.....Certainly not heavy prog. Lonesome Crow is a fantastic, artistic album......When I first heard Lovedrive, that got me hooked on Scorpions. I then purchased Tokyo Tapes, their first live album. That included "In Search of the Peace of Mind"....mystical performance.....thru research found out it was on the first album. I spent a few months looking for Lonesome Crow at Tower Records (back in the day that's where I found all my import vinyl).
Then I read (internet did not exist...) that Lonesome Crow was released under a different label and title in the US as "Action". Ahhaaa!! Finally found it...the cover has a girl driving a Jeep wearing ski goggles stuck in a sand pit...WHAT????
Anyhow...That album is so psychadelic, art rock, jazzy.....The first few songs Klaus is merely "rapping" and not singing, he sings very little in those first songs.
The title track is an amazing journey of strange sounds, the guitar work of the Schenker brothers is mind boggling......I also think Wolfgang Dziony and Lothar Heimberg do a fantastic job on drums and bass work.
It certainly is Scorpions most ambitious work IMO.....and don't forget the album was actually used as a soundtrack for some German movie, I don't recall the title.
Once Michael left for UFO...Uli Jon Roth joined and the sound and style continued with his amazing orchestral guitar work.....Although its not where Klaus and Rudolf wanted to go....Their ultimate goal was to conquer the USA......So heavy metal guitar based sound is what they shot for, hence all the member changes in those early years....and of course they did along with conquering the rest of the world.
Scorpions changed their sound quite a bit over their career....and I do agree their work up to Taken By Force is some of their best and certainly includes the most progy elements. After that it was heavy metal/hard rock........reason why Lovedrive and Animal Magnetism were big hits in the US, their heavy US touring schedule helped a lot too back in the late 70's.
Anyhow....I struggle with the inclusion of Scorpions to PA......Although I 100% agree the early Scorpions years could be considered.
So please, do yourself a favor and take a listen to Lonesome Crow......its a great album...and its far from the recent albums. The only other song that comes to mind where they came close to that early style was a song called "China White" on the Blackout album.......for that matter the title track "Animal Magnetism"...same vein.
I think it all points to that Scorpions took their sound and changed it quite a bit from begining to where they are now......sounds progressive to me.
Regardless Scorpions
 Cheers everyone!!
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Posted By: listen
Date Posted: May 09 2011 at 04:42
I'm not making an "If X is here, then Y must be" argument at all. The fact that bands with similar levels of progressiveness exist across this site warrants and even motivates the consideration of this band. And remember, "progressiveness" is a subjective and multifaceted quality, if progressiveness is a contiguous and coherent concept at all. And of course, the concept exists on a continuum and where the line between "progressive" and non-"progressive" exists is subjective. By and large, the Scorpions played formulaic, simple stadium hard rock. But, in case anyone didn't read my first post, I am suggesting Scorpions for inclusion solely because of their first album, Lonesome Crow. And let's remember: There is no requirement on this site for how many "progressive" albums a band must have produced in order to be listed (there are many artists on this site that only ever released one album, and many who only released one or a few progressive albums [for instance only one of Jose Cid's 20-something albums is listed in the archives, so it seems the objection on the basis of not wanting to add the bulk of non-progressive Scorpions' albums is potentially void]), and no requirement for progressiveness across their entire catalog, especially if the members changed, as is the case with the Scorpions (by the way, what were many of the prog "greats" doing around the same time as the rest of many of the Scorpions albums? ELP? Genesis? Camel? Yes?). And of course Progarchives intends to be the "most complete and powerful prog-rock resource". So, if Lonesome Crow is deemed to be progressive, Scorpions should be listed in the archives. I rescind my proposal of the Krautrock category; I don't think their first album is quite krautrock (although bands like Arktis, Dschinn, Jeronimo, Pacific Sound, etc are no more krautrock or progressive to my ears). But I do think that Lonesome Crow is progressive, if only to the degree seemingly required (from my subjective observation) to be listed as Prog-related or Crossover Prog. The most progressive track is the final, title track, "Lonesome Crow," although there is progressiveness throughout the album. You can listen to it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1BGCechX3Y" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch? Lonesome Crow was produced by the krautrock-affiliated Conny Plank (Can, Cluster, Harmonia, Kluster, Kraan, Guru Guru, Neu!, Organisation, Os Mundi) for Brain records. While it is probably likely that Plank's seeming krautrock aesthetic had some amount of an influence on the sound on Lonesome Crow, there is definite progressiveness in the music to my ears. And lets remember to consider progressiveness in a krautrock light here. ------------- Now is all there is. Be before you think! |
Posted By: listen
Date Posted: May 09 2011 at 04:49
NOTE: the version of "Lonesome Crow" here is edited--it is 4 minutes too short. FOR THE FULL VERSION, LISTEN HERE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1BGCechX3Y" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1BGCechX3Y" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch? ------------- Now is all there is. Be before you think! |
Posted By: listen
Date Posted: May 09 2011 at 04:55
Well said. ------------- Now is all there is. Be before you think! |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: May 09 2011 at 05:46
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Now I really am intrigued to listen to Lonesome Crow. It's the only one from their 70's stuff that I don't have. You could say their second album "Fly To The Rainbow" is "proto Prog Metal", like Judas Priest's first two albums. Is that enough for Prog-Related? Not my call to make but it's not an absurd suggestion neither. |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: May 09 2011 at 05:58
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Bizarre........... I did the review of the first Saris album one week ago where I more than once commented how similar sounding they are to The Scorpions. A band I once liked and which played a reasonable big part of my life 20 years ago. I may be tempted to like them again when I get a room & a rocking chair in the local retirement home. We all return back to past crimes when we get old. |
Posted By: listen
Date Posted: May 09 2011 at 06:06
I'm not making an "If X is here, then Y must be" argument at all. The fact that bands with similar levels of progressiveness exist across this site warrants and even motivates the consideration of this band. And remember, "progressiveness" is a subjective and multifaceted quality, if progressiveness is a contiguous and coherent concept at all. And of course, the concept exists on a continuum and where the line between "progressive" and non-"progressive" exists is subjective. By and large, the Scorpions played formulaic, simple stadium hard rock. But, in case anyone didn't read my first post, I am suggesting Scorpions for inclusion solely because of their first album, Lonesome Crow. And let's remember: There is no requirement on this site for how many "progressive" albums a band must have produced in order to be listed (there are many artists on this site that only ever released one album, and many that only released one or a few progressive albums [for instance only one of Jose Cid's 20-something albums is listed in the archives, so it seems the objection on the basis of not wanting to add the bulk of non-progressive Scorpions' albums is potentially void]), and no requirement for progressiveness across their entire catalog, especially if the members changed, as is the case with the Scorpions, for which only 2 of the 5 musicians on Lonesome Crow continued on after that album (and by the way, what were many of the prog "greats" doing around the same time as the rest of many of the Scorpions albums? ELP? Genesis? Camel? Yes?). And of course Progarchives intends to be the "most complete and powerful prog-rock resource". So, if Lonesome Crow is deemed to be progressive, Scorpions should be listed in the archives. I rescind my proposal of the Krautrock category; I don't think their first album is quite krautrock (although bands like Arktis, Dschinn, Jeronimo, Pacific Sound, Orange Peel, etc are no more krautrock or progressive to my ears). But I do think that Lonesome Crow is progressive, if only to the degree seemingly required (from my subjective observation) to be listed as Prog-related or Crossover Prog. The most progressive track is the final, title track, "Lonesome Crow," although there is progressiveness throughout the album. You can listen to it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1BGCechX3Y" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch? The song "In Search of the Peace of Mind" also has some progressive elements, mostly with its tangential structure (as does the song "Action," for which I did not find a video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osuvkwVzKrk" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osuvkwVzKrk Lonesome Crow was produced by the krautrock-affiliated Conny Plank (Can, Cluster, Harmonia, Kluster, Kraan, Guru Guru, Neu!, Organisation, Os Mundi) for Brain records. While it is probably likely that Plank's seeming krautrock aesthetic had some amount of an influence on the sound on Lonesome Crow, there is definite progressiveness in the music to my ears. And lets remember to consider progressiveness in a krautrock light here. ------------- Now is all there is. Be before you think! |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: May 09 2011 at 06:31
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I am a Scorpions fan and never thought of them as prog at all. I have the first few albums and the huge World Wide Live album. Love at First Sting is their best I think. 'Lonesome Crow' is very different and is a one off really. It is proggish but can a whole band be included here over one proggish album? This may be the case but it poses problems.I am not saying Scorpions are not a chance as prog related but it opens iup doors for other dubious entries.
If this were the case we would need to include the following:
Helloween - 'Keeper of the 7 Keys saga' and others
Judas Priest - 'Nostradamus' (concept album with proggish musicianship)
Kiss - 'The Elder' (conceptual, prog time sigs)
Wasp - 'Babylon' (conceptual, PR music)
Megadeth - 'So far So Good So What?' (PR music)
Gary..... oh forget it!
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Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: May 09 2011 at 06:47
| Scorpions is German hard rock and that's it. They are a good band and perhaps underrated due to that horrible whistle tune Winds Of Change and a very cheesy image which does not cut it in 2011. But progressive rock or even prog related ? No !!!!!!! |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: May 09 2011 at 06:53
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Posted By: listen
Date Posted: May 09 2011 at 07:00
Remember! We are evaluating on the basis of their debut, which wasn't even the same band as later albums (only 2/5 of the members on that album remained after that album was released)! This is *NOT* a discussion of whether Scorpions' music as a whole is progressive. ------------- Now is all there is. Be before you think! |
Posted By: Slaughternalia
Date Posted: May 09 2011 at 19:19
| I think a band's inclusion in the archives as full fledged prog should be based on their creative peak. If a band had some proggy albums at some point (such as Queen), prog related works fine. |
Posted By: progrockfreak
Date Posted: May 09 2011 at 21:13
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I think it's time you guys added a new category to the site, "Almost But Not Quite", "The Ones That Got Away", or some similarly descriptive name, where you can bundle all these bands that aren't immediately recognisable to the world as genuine prog artists, but do have the occasional flash of inspiration that rises beyond the normal territory of hard rock, pop or whatever it is that they usually play.
No need to list albums, or provide a thorough biography - just a reference to them, the fact that they were proposed, evaluated and rejected, and the reason for their rejection. The site aims to be the ultimate prog resource, so the fact that these contentious bands are missing completely as things stand is actually preventing this from being achieved.
I don't suppose it would stop the discussions and arguments such as this one, but at least when a search was done for a "borderline" artist like The Scorpions, a result would then be forthcoming, and the reason why the band was not included in the site proper would be there for all to see.
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Posted By: listen
Date Posted: May 10 2011 at 00:52
You can always do a search of this "suggest new bands and artists" forum. ------------- Now is all there is. Be before you think! |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: May 10 2011 at 01:56
That is a bit deceptive. Scorpions is a hard-rock band with more then 15(?) albums. With such an extensive discography, the evaluation won't be done on just one or two initial albums that are entirely different from what came after. Unless of course those two albums were very influential on later prog-rock. Then they might fir for Prog-Related. So you'd better put your energy in making a list of established prog rock acts that claim (themselves) to have be influenced by the Scorpions' first two albums, which I don't think will fly as Scorpions were just absorbing influences from existing UK heavy rock (Uriah Heep for instance). |
Posted By: progrockfreak
Date Posted: May 10 2011 at 06:39
Yes you can. And find five pages with nigh on 100 posts to wade through. What I'm talking about here is a simple definitive conclusion when the collaborators have all had their say, and the band has been rejected. Something that will show up in a normal google search for a band, and that will lead the reader to a single summarial entry saying what the band were (or are) about, and why they were considered unsuitable for inclusion in the site proper. It would make things a whole lot easier for the casual user just looking up a band they were interested in, and add to the functionality of the site in my opinion.
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