Hi all

As I may have already said somewhere here, I just recently re-discovered Camel. I am totally fascinated by the live performances that I found on Youtube. I also found some of my cd’s back, I found some of their albums on Deezer and best of all, I bought the dvd’s Pressure Points and Moondances and Coming of Age is on its way (I hope). And I just can not stop listening to their music.

I started a weblog where I uploaded many of the Youtube videos and now I want to start another weblog where I will try to describe my perception of the music. I was never very good at that, so I was more than happy with all the reactions on Youtube and on Prog Archives where I found many reviews of the albums. It give me so much insight into my own feelings about the music.

On this new weblog, I want to focus on 3 of their concerts and the Youtube videos I found from them. And I would love it to read what you all think about each video, album and concert, as a comment on my blog or here on this forum.

http://www.camellive.com/2009/01/the-story-of-the-snow-goose/ - http://www.camellive.com/2009/01/the-story-of-the-snow-goose

My first post is about the Snow Goose, the music of Camel combined with the story of Paul Gallico, which I wrote a few weeks ago. I uploaded it as a start and will copy it here. 

Music by Camel, based on The Snow Goose by Paul Gallico.

The Great Marsh starts with bird sounds and softly the music sets in. In the background there is the repeating sound of female vocals and occasionally there is the highlighting of a guitar. Then the pressure goes up, the drums enter and it becomes a coherent setting for the story to take place. 

...the ocean cut through the sodden land that seems to rise and fall and breathe with the recurrence of the the daily tides. It is desolate, utterly lonely, and made lonelier by the calls and cries of the wildfowl that make their homes in the marshlands and saltings ...

Part 1

Rhayader is the introduction of the main character. His introduction is rather sensitive with the sound of a flute, but soon gets a firm grounding with the drums and keyboard, while the tambourine gives it a light and dancing touch. And it ends again with the sensitive flute in a repeating rhythm.

...his heart was filled with pity and understanding. He mastered his handicap, but he could not master the rebuffs he suffered, due to his appearance. The thing that drove him into seclusion was his failure to find anywhere a return of the warmth that flowed from him...

But then, with the start of Rhayader goes to town, there is a remarkable change. The drums make a determined statement and the guitar comes in very strong.

...he was twenty-seven when he came to the Great Marsh. He had travelled much and fought valiantly before he made the decision to withdraw from a world in which he could not take part as other men. For all the artist's sensitivity and woman's tenderness locked in his barrel breast, he was very much a man...

This is made very clear by the drums, keyboard and guitars, while they express the powerful spirit of Rhayader. Then the music changes again and while still holding this power, it starts to move. It sounds like a strong and determined walk as he goes to town. But in that movement he looses his power bit by bit, and takes him out of his centre.

And so he returns to his sanctuary, which he build for the birds but which he needs himself just as much. The story describes that he has a safe place for all hunted creatures.

... this made Rhayader happy, because he knew that implanted somewhere in their beings was the germ knowledge, of his existence and his safe haven, that this knowledge had become a part of them and, with the coming of the grey skies and the winds from the north, would send them unerringly back to him...

Sanctuary is a very balanced guitar piece, the plucking of the strings that give a basic ground and the space to express the guitar.

So in this self created sanctuary, where he can embody his spirit by developing his skills of painting and managing his boat, he, one day gets a visitor, and Fritha enters.

... desperately frightened of the ugly man she had come to see, for legend had already begun to gather about Rhayader, and the native wild-fowlers hated him for interfering with their sport. But greater than her fear was the need of that which she bore. For locked in her child's heart was the knowledge, picked up somewhere in the swamp-land, that this ogre who lived in the lighthouse had magic that could heal injured things. She had never seen Rhayader before and was close to fleeing in panic at the dark apparition that appeared at the studio door...

This is expressed by the music which gives the feeling of something that will disappear with the slightest movement.

And then there is another change as The Snow Goose starts and the guitar is showing it's most amazing moves.

...he told her the most wonderful story. The bird was a young one, no more than a year old. She was born in a northern land far, far across the seas, a land belonging to England. Flying to the south to escape the snow and ice and bitter cold, a great storm had seized her and whirled and buffeted her about. It was a truly terrible storm, stronger than her great wings, stronger than anything. For days and nights it held her in its grip and there was nothing she could do but fly before it. When finally it had blown itself out and her sure instincts took her south again, she was over a different land and surrounded by strange birds that she had never seen before. At last, exhausted by her ordeal, she had sunk to rest in a friendly green marsh, only to be met by the blast from the hunter's gun. A bitter reception for a visiting princess, concluded Rhayader. We will call her La Princesse Perdue, the lost princess...

Part 2

This is the part that bears the essence of the story, but it is the part that is least played in live concerts. There are probably several reasons for that, like the use of wind instruments (Friendship) the non lyric-vocals (Migration) and the use of female voices (Preparation), which are not the regular ingredients of a rock band. And also does this part not so much have the brilliant and active guitar performances that are present in part one (Rhayader goes to town and The Snow Goose) and in part three (Dunkirk and La Princesse Perdue).

This part is much more like the Adagio in a classical symphony. It is more contemplative, the phase of reception instead of action. Part one and three are the active parts, part one in the way of a creative self-expression and part three expressing developed talents for the sake of a bigger whole.

But here, in part two, there is the need of another person, the other who reflects, but who also makes aware of the connection with the world again.

With Friendship there is a feeling of getting to know each other, which is reflected by the wind instruments that show the exchange of energy.

...they sailed together in his speedy boat, that he handled so skillfully. They caught wildfowl for the ever-increasing colony, and build new pens and enclosure for them. From him she learned the lore of every wild bird, from gull to gyrfalcon, that flew the marshes. She cooked for him sometimes, and even learned to mix his paints...

Then Migration very much gives the feeling of nature runs its course. The non lyric vocals make it sound rather unaware and just following the natural instinctive circle of life.

With Rhayader alone there is the feeling of accepting and sadness with the soft keyboard and sensitive guitar expressing his loneliness.

...and Rhayader was heartbroken. All things seemed to have ended for him. He painted furiously through the winter and the next summer, and never once saw the child...

Here arises the awareness for Rhayader in Flight of the Snow Goose and the reconnection with his soul is expressed by the sound of water and female vocals in Preparation.

But at the same time this moment brings fear for Fritha, because she does not understand the power yet.

... and Fritha was suddenly conscious of the fact that she was frightened, and the things that frightened her were in Rhayader's eyes - the longing and the loneliness and the deep, welling, unspoken things that lay in and behind them as he turned them upon her. His last words were repeating themselves in her head as though he had said them again: this is her home now - of her own free will. The delicate tendrils of her instincts reached to him and carried to her the message of the unspoken things between them. The woman in her bade her take flight from something that she was not yet capable of understanding...

Part 3

Part three starts with action again, but the difference with part one is that the action is conscious now. It is the action that is the result of the realisation of having a free will. A will to choose which direction to move the power. Not to let it be a destructive or dominating force, but to use it in a serving way. This awareness came over him while he watched the snow goose return.

And so he decides to act and use his developed sailing skills to save as many men as he can in the battle at Dunkirk. It came upon him in excitement, but as he sees the fear in Fritha's eyes, he explains it to her so she can understand his desire to fulfil his mission.

...they are lost and stormdriven and harried, like the Princesse Perdue you found and brought to me out of the marches many years ago, and we healed her. They need help, my dear, as our wild creatures have needed help, and that is why I must go. It is something that I can do. Yes, I can. For once - for once I can be a man and play my part...

This is beautiful expressed in Dunkirk, which start off as a very determined active ongoing movement, which gives the feeling of something inevitable to happen. And now the strong spirit of Rhayader is capable of acting but also reacting within the same movement. During the battle he can stay in his own power, and at the same time do what is needed. And it only increases the power. This is brilliantly shown by the guitar and drums near the end.

He can immediately react upon what happens and save many lives. And with the snow goose flying above his boat it becomes an impressive story, to be told by many.

But Rhayader will never return, as he dies in the battle.

...when we turned our attention to the derelict again, the boat was gone. Sunk. Concussion, you know. Chap with her. He must have been lashed to her. The bird had gone up and was circling. Three times, like a plane saluting. Dashed queer feeling. Then she flew off to the west...

In Epitaph the feeling returns as in 'Preparation' but now as a memory for the heroic act of Rhayader. Who just followed his strong drive to act in the knowledge of a world beyond his individual being.

In the meantime Fritha is waiting, roaming through the lighthouse. This is translated with a silent piano tune Fritha alone.

... she found the picture that Rhayader had painted of her from memory so many years ago, when she was still a child, and had stood, windblown and timid, at his threshold, hugging and injured bird to her.The picture and the things she saw in it stirred her as nothing ever had before, for much of Rhayader's soul had gone into it...

But deep within, she knows that she will never see him again, and becomes aware of her love for him as she watches the snow goose fly.

...the sight, the sound, and the solitude surrounding broke the dam within her and released the surging, overwhelming truth of her love, let it well forth in tears. Wild spirit called to wild spirit, and she seemed to be flying with the great bird, soaring with it in the evening sky and hearkening to Rhayader's message. Sky and earth were trembling with it and filled her beyond the bearing of it...

La Princesse Perdue which, after a while, reminds of 'The Snow Goose', is a very melancholic goodbye on the guitar and a coming together of two souls.

...watching it, Fritha saw no longer the snow goose but the soul of Rhayader taking farewell of her before departing for ever...

Finally the lighthouse is blown away by accident and the sea has taken over again, shown at the end in The Great Marsh.

...the sea had moved in through the breached walls and covered it over. Nothing was left to break the utter desolation. No marsh fowl had dared to return. Only the frightless gulls wheeled and soared and mewed their plaint over the place where it had been...

My next blogpost is about the video The White Rider. Before I started I read through al the reviews about the album Mirage, which was a great way of finding out what others thought of it. I really like the way some can express their impression and it helped me a lot to order my own thoughts.

Comments are more than welcome. I am not adding the blog to the blogcommunities yet, as I am still searching for a way to continue, so any feedback is very much appreciated. 

http://www.camellive.com/2009/01/expression-of-the-self/ - http://www.camellive.com/2009/01/expression-of-the-self/ http://www.camellive.com/?p=953 -

Expression of the self

The video I want to start with is The White Rider, which is originally on the album Mirage. Mirage is the album of 1974 and it was the second album of Camel as a group. I like it a lot as a whole but it was not my favourite in the time I was listening to their music the most.

And as I am finding out now it especially had to do with the White Rider (officially Nimrodel, the Procession, the White Rider). Not that I did not like that one, I always liked it a lot. The beginning, very spacy and atmospheric, great, I like that. Then the more determined marching feeling it gives which I also very much enjoy listening to. Increasing and increasing and than wow, the guitar, just amazing. I just like it so very much. And then a sort of melancholic continuing.

Next is the start of the lyrics. While reading a lot of reviews of that album these last few day, it became clear that most consider those not the best part of Camel. So I tried to figure out what I thought of them. Some called them boring, while others called them effective but not to exciting. I kind of agree with that. Somehow Latimers voice gives me the feeling of  ‘okay someone has to sing here’, but it is not the way he expresses his emotion.

There were a lot of reviewers who liked the way he played the flute, who were very charmed by the second song on the album, Supertwister. Well, I must say I personally like the way he plays the pan flute in Stationary Traveller. It is a very sensitive, but at the same time strong and genuine sound, it moves me a lot. But even there the feeling of movement is largely increasing if he starts with the guitar again. Just breathtaking, every time I hear that.

So when the lyrics start in The White Rider, that is certainly not the part I like the least. Especially here I find it most effective and grounding the spacey feeling. And right after that of course the guitar again.
Then everything almost comes to a stop, with a very subtle but at the same time effective drums. The next few minutes are not especially my favourite, but I do like them. The speed and energetic going on is exciting anyway.

Then the lyrics start again and were never very special to me before, but got that when I looked at the video. He sings ‘He has a certain air, as if he’s never there, but somehow far away’. He is singing of Gandalf here, but to me it is the feeling he gives himself.

On the dvd Moondances The White Rider is the first song and until this moment it all gives the impression of beautiful music, coming from another world. And so far I like the song, it would have always been one of my favourites I think.

But then, about 2 minutes before the end it starts. It is the part I am very fascinated about now, but that was not always like that. And I noticed I am not alone in that. Although there are many who find the last part exciting, there are also a lot who find it very annoying. When I was playing the dvd at home, most reactions on the whole of this concert where very positive as everyone likes it a lot. But with the last few minutes of The White Rider everyone gets irritated. But for me the more I heard it, the more interesting it got. You see Latimer start doing all kinds of things with his guitar and you get curious what is going on. And than he starts and it really is fascinating.

It is as if indeed before that ‘he was not really there, but somehow far away’ but with this part he very much gives the impression of having found a way of expressing himself with the guitar. Still searching for different ways to do that and at a point of  ‘the more extensions the better’ but very much finding an individual way of expressing himself.

And after a search through classical music for several years, that, I know now, was what I missed there. No matter how much I like a lot of classical music, it always stays within a certain frame. And there is little room for self expression. Which can be a good thing. Most of the time I am more than happy if the performer keeps himself out of the way and tries to express the music how it was meant to be. But for me, there was a certain point where I started to miss the self expression of the performer.

But here it gets dangerous. Here the interpretation of the performer comes in and may be totally different from how the music was intended. Which might be fine in itself, but as a listener you often get the feeling it is not what it was meant to be, it feels overacted. As if you are not hearing the real thing. It is like some children are freaked out by clowns. They somehow feel the real person behind the mask and get confused. That is what I often felt with classical music. But that does not take away the immense pleasure, if it did sound as I felt was genuine. And if it did, I just had to listen to that over and over again.

But the beauty of modern music is, that it is sometimes performed by those who composed it. So that very much gives the freedom to experiment with your own compositions. And they might only get better. Which I think is very much the case with the music of Camel, the progression of each song through time. Although this concert on the dvd Moondances already is a highlight as a whole.

And beyond that there always is the feeling of cooperation within the band, very stressful at times, but somehow always the coming together of very authentic individuals.

"this is the effect Camel has on many many people"

It is so great to hear that other people also get moved so deeply. There are more people that I know that like their music a lot, but they are not as obsessed as I am. At least that is how it feels right now. For that you have to be on a music forum I guess.

"Never Lety Go (from the D&D tour)"

I heard others say indeed that is the best performance of Never let go. I will have to search for that too then. Exciting actually, that I know so much of them already and still there is so much more I do not know yet. Like with the performance of Ice. I like it on the album, I must have heard it many times, but when I heard the version of the '97 tour on Youtube, I was totally disturbed. Unbelievable that music can do that, it really moves me so.

Yes, piercing through my heart!

"So I brought the cd.....and got completely hooked"

And hooked indeed.

"and must have played it a 1000 times or more"

Okay, you win, that is indeed a whole lot. But so glad I am not the only one who listens to some music so many times.

"through my cousin who owned must of the other albums, saw Camel even on the ST tour"

I saw them there too. It had such an impression on me. The whole sphere had something that I could not describe, unescapable or something like that, totally overwhelming. And hearing the dvd again a few weeks ago, brought very much back that feeling. But still it was different from hearing Ice. And also different from hearing Lady Fantasy from the dvd Moondances. I am trying to get the differences clear for myself by writing about it, trying to understand it.

"What an enormous guitarsound in that second track..........truly...truly......awsome"

I looked to find what was the second track on there, was that Hymn to Her? Because indeed there I also was so very much surprised by the sound of that guitar when I found that on Youtube. I never had that so much with the song on the album, but here the guitar again was so very moving.

"what a night. 165 minutes of pure euphoria"

Wow, would I have wanted to be there!

"were played with a passion and a dedication"

Yes, passion and dedication, are indeed words to use. Thank you so much for sharing your story, so good to hear others who are that fascinated about their music!

"So I putted on Mirage.....remains one of my favorites for sure".

Yes, mine too. I do not have it myself anymore, but fortunately it is on Deezer. And I have listened to it a lot already lately.
 
"Irish Air (instrumental) a flute...and then the roaring guitar is blasting around you ears...just out of the blue....what an experience".

"I guess Andrew is using alot of Lower G in his guitar, and holds them on.....very long"

Although I hardly know anything about music theory or guitar technics, I also would be more than interested to know what he does different from others. What makes his sound so special. It must have something to do with a sort of melancholic quality and indeed, extending it all somehow.
 
"Yes, really amazing too, but it always gave me a bit of the feeling that it are 2 seperate songs in this version".

Well, sometimes the only way I recognise Never let go is with the beginning and the lyrics, as indeed it everytime seems so very different. On the dvd Moondances it is also played in the 1977 concert, but is hard to recognise. And seems very different from other videos I found, the one from the Stationary Traveller tour and an old one from 1973 where I read the sound is the original from the single, so not really live.
 
"People around the world hail the end part of Comfortably Numb, but perhaps a very simular kind of solo Ice, is much better....and indeed when I heard that I also thought....how in all heaven can there be players that can do that".

That is what I also thought a lot lately, it is really beyond me how someone can play like that. Funny that you mention Comfortably Numb. The only (not classical) concert I ever have ever  been to (besides Camel in '84 en '92 or so), was Pink Floyd somewhere in the 90's. And a while ago I found on Youtube a video of Comfortably Numb, which was always one of my favourites. And now I know it must have had to do with the guitar indeed, I never realised that so much. But it was nowhere near what I felt when I heard Ice again. 
 
"Personally I only regretted one thing.....and that is the departure of Mickey Simmonds".

I am only just beginning to know who played when and what. But right now I find it all very interesting, especially to see the similarity between the history of the band and the way the music evolves. Most amazing!

"so I think we need an expert on this"

Yes, I think so too. On Youtube I came across a guitar teacher who talked about the beginning of Never let go. He said something like 'this is a very special technique' something like up-up-down, or something like that.

I doubt that I can hear differences between those guitars, but maybe it is something you just hear anyway and what makes that you like it without knowing that.

Very interesting, I didn't know that. I only know it from the album Delicate sound of Thunder, but there it is much shorter indeed.

Yes, very sensitive song. They did that one on the '84 tour too.

I just got to have that one!

A Life Record is indeed such a great album, I always loved it. I just found out there is also a remastered version, I don't know if you have that one. It also has a part of the '77 concert Raindances and a spoken introduction to the Snow Goose by Peter Bardens. The Snow Goose sounds just so fantasic with the orchestra. Also there are two songs extra at the end, the White Rider and Another Night. A bit strange at first to hear them right after the Snow Goose.

I found that now and indeed it has a certain similar sound, at first hearing I liked Nine Feet Underground. I will have to listen again, but this way I never get away from the computer! 

We'll I must say I never thought of that untill my wife remarked the fact that alot of the songs on Harbour Of Tears are actually quite depressing.....and then I explained her that its logical if you realize its about the harbour in Ireland from which so many people left in search for a better life in America. And although I discussed this subject before with friends I didn't realize utill then that I am in Ireland right now, what indeed makes it more special; because of the so Irish atmosphere of the album......

One more reason for me to get this album then, in general I very much like 'depressing' music!

"I tend to believe that a band is or creative or technical skilled"  "But a Fender has this capability to create that amazing feeling in your lower stomach"

I think you make some very interesting remarks about creativity, technical skills and emotional music. Personally I find that one of the most interesting things about music, well of human development and natural human reactions in general. And I think it is very interesting what you say about the difference in guitars. 

Personally I have been thinking about it in relation to classical music and was wondering what makes me like certain music so much. There also I have this music I just can not stop listening to. And I thought I found a certain pattern, but then the guitar messed it all up. Because until just recently I had no idea that the guitar in Camel music was what made me like it so much.

"get in higher spheres on your own music"

Yes, that is exactly the impression it gives. And the most amazing thing about it is that he totaly reacts to the music, and his mood and expression change immediately if the music does. Like in Lady Fantasy on the Moondances dvd, it is a very long time he is in these 'higher spheres'. The whole middle part is like that and is so amazing to watch. He is sort of searching for each next note. Very withdrawn and totally not aware of his surrounding. Then he starts to sing again, which brings him back to reality a bit. But as soon as the lyrics are done he looks aside with a look like 'lets get started' and the whole band gets euforic, gets in a sort of trance. A total change of energy, just like the energy also radically changed at the end of the guitarsolo. Just fascinating!

"play their anger out in the songs, which resulted in versions that were extremely passionate and a band that was literly on fire"

Recently there was a documentary about Pink Floyd on tv. I saw it only partly, but it was most interesting to see the very different characters of the group. So I can very well imagen that passonate playing indeed. I will have to see if it is repeated, because I would love to see the beginning that I missed.

"Songs as Vopos or West Berlin"

I also like Vopos and West Berlin, but I don't think they are conscidered their best. I am curious to read the reviews about that album here on Prog Archives, but I try to stay a bit focussed on another blogpost so I read only those reviews for now. There is such a very rich archive here, that, if I do not restrict myself, I spent far to much time reading reviews. 
 

I just love that quote.

I think Camel (and with them many different bands) are on their best...and I think that if you are looking for pure emotion and drama...you can only go for the depressive songs....I never really liked the happy songs of The Cure, but their depressive songs are penomenal.......And I think the same would go for a band as Genesis...Harrel The Barrel......is a funny experiment.....but...the real masterpieces...are often gloomy, dark....and sad...After all it is depression and sadness that often bring artist to their higest level of creativity. Such as Clapton who write Tears In Heaven...and after that a masterpiece of an album Pilgrim, all in the period after his son fell of a balcony (quite touching by the way how he writes about this in his biography)...so yes...Harbour Of Tears is about a rather sad subject and it shows in the music.

In my next blogpost, Cycle of life, I describe my impression of Lunar Sea from the Moonmadness album and recorded on the Moondances dvd. Again I am more than happy with any comment, here or on my blog. I really helps me understand and formulate my thoughts and feelings about the music better.   

http://www.camellive.com/2009/01/cycle-of-life/ - Next is Lunar Sea, which is on the album Moonmadness. I always liked that album a lot, most of all ‘Song within a Song’, ‘Spirit of the Water’ and especially ‘Air Born’. Air Born is one of those songs I can turn on repeat and listen to the whole evening, over and over again. And even with the volume up, you do not have to be alone in the room. Others like it too (well, maybe not as many times in a row) and it gives a real relaxing and special atmosphere which fills the whole room. I also like the lyrics here (and if the world keeps spinning round, you’ll be back again), which summarizes a bit my overall feeling of the whole album.

To start with the latter, I agree with that, if I listen to the album. But during the concert it is totally different. Not that I was so much aware of that at the time I heard it, but seeing the dvd Pressure Points did make that very clear to me. And it is not that the dvd is even close in giving good camera work, or in focussing on who is playing or giving beautiful colours, it is not, but what it does show, is the very intense atmosphere, and for that matter, very emotional guitarsolo's.

I want to try and get it all better into words, but one clear example is the track Pressure Point. I don't know if you have heard it live, so I will try to upload the video at the end of this post. There is an intro first, and Pressure points itself starts after about 2 minutes. It is a very extended version, but is so really good. And it also gives such a good impression of what impact that concert had on me.

Then about if I like drama, can be centred about Beethoven. Like you, I like Beethoven the most. My classical music discovery started with Beethoven and it is where it ended more or less. There is a lot I like from Bach, especially from the Matthew Passion, like Erbarme Dich or Aus Liebe, are truly amazing. I can more or less understand how people see his work as brilliant and overall I like hearing his work. From Mozart I like his Requiem the most, I have listened to that so many times. And for the rest there is so much, I really like.

But both the music of Bach as well as the music of Mozart do not have that same powerful, basic and down to earth feeling that Beethoven has. And Beethoven has that with about all his work and that is what I like the most. But also something from his personality, he just has to throw that in, his music is just who he is, it is his very essence which he expresses. Well, at least that is the impression he gives me.

But what I somehow miss in his work is something what I found with the music of Schubert. There is a lot of Schubert which I do not tend to listen to, but there is some of his work that I just have to listen to over and over again. One of that is his Ave Maria and second his Unfinished symphony. And both have a certain quality, a certain magical tenderness, that I miss with Beethoven.

Then Wagner and Mahler do have some really very amazing music. I especially like Mahlers 2th symphony and some of the preludes of Wagners opera's. Of course there is much, much more, also a lot that I like, but not so much that I have to listen to it over and over again.

And this brings me to your remark about drama, all their work is, (in my very personal opinion) to pretentious. Pretentious in a way that is searching for a way to move people to have a certain effect, to create drama. And it is not that I don't like that. At times I really like that. But at the end it is not what I like the most in music. And in classical music I most like the combination of Beethoven and Schubert.

And just that combination of Beethoven and Schubert, of essential powerful expression combined with a sort of magical tenderness (I will have to go search for some better words to describe what I mean) is what I feel with the music of Camel. And I find that very much in their concert Pressure Points.

Of course for a large part the performance of Lady Fantasy there, which was truly amazing. I was so surprised to hear some old favourites, because I thought the concert ended with Long Goodbyes, which in itself was fantastic, and again especially the guitar there. But I still remember my surprise that when I thought it was over, just then the best (at that time) had to come, some of the Snow goose and Lady Fantasy.

But another truly wonderful guitar piece of that concert is Stationary Traveller itself. Which I find so truly amazing, it just takes my breath away, every time I hear it. Most of all seeing it live ofcourse, but also on the album. In fact it would be very hard to choose between Lady Fantasy, Ice and Stationary Traveller, those are my absolute favourites at this moment.

So indeed for the album itself I would say it are not so many moments of emotional guitarsolo, and it does not so much have this powerful and dense atmosphere. But the concert does, and thinking and writing about it now, that is the combination that I like the most. I just have to try and put it better into words.

Anthe...yes I know ressure Points very we'll.....My boss that introduced me to Camel...took me to her house one day...costum made speakers....absolutely top notch high end set...and she told me to sit down and listen some stuff.....One of the things she put on was indeed Pressure Points....right from the beginning.....I thought....wow...there we go again.........just as with Never Let Go...I think I have the extended DVD at home...but didn't have the chance to waith it yet...Too bad...But I can imagine something with that....I mean it goes on like Pressure Points then it must be totally stellar.....Its indeed true that the studio version tend to focus more on other instruments, but live Andy indeed pulling out all the plugs again......Particularry amazing is the solo of Pressure Points that starts around 3:20, the music is softening down....only keys and beautifull and suddle bass and there we go......so amazingly touching....and then the interplay of keys and guitars......such a different story than the album......The other things I heard that day....were some things of Eric Woolfson (Re-recorded songs of Alan Parsons songs) and.....what was the absolute summum for me.....a song called Only Because Of You from Roger Hodgson.....talking about drama and emotion......and of that was not enough...she ended with a version of Supertram's Fools Overture that was recorded with the musical festival Night Of The Promps, where the song is performed completely....with Orchestra.....the best version I have ever heard......Roger behind the piano......but man....what playing.....quite simular as when I saw Supertram in 1997.......I never forget that solo from Rick Davis... during Another Man's Woman.......totally amazing...and a really different way of emotion.....

Mozart always sounded too childish to me....Perhaps its due the fact that I can't get that picture out of my head whenever I listen Mozart that I have left from....watching Amadeus......But one of my professors more than once.....emphasized the absolute beauty of The Magical Flute....and often remarked that he envied all that students that still had it lying on front of them and still were about to discover something so beautifull. But I never got into it....I heard alot from Mozart over the years...but never was really blown away. I think because it was not giving me that feeling....and I own everything from Beethoven that he ever wrote....thank God DG decide to release that in a box...of 20 volumes....so I  listen through everything quite intense.....and it was indeed what I regarded the end of my classical journey.......the summum of classical music......with no doubt....

I like the way you say....'His music is what he is....' I think thats very adequatly described cos it s really true....this man was overwelmed with emotion and drama....and his music is very much the result of an overflow of drama....I never forgot a certain scene in Immortal Beloved...where Gary Oldman (as Beethoven) plays Fur Elise...playing with his head on the piano......his eys closed...while theb love of his life is watching him from a distance and when he spots her....he totally freaks out because he regarded it as taking a secret peek in someones diary.....So I guess for Beethoven composing music had the same function as writing a diary.......so he personified himself completely with the music he composed. A few other things I thought that were absolutely haunting.......Adagio For Strings from Samuel Barber....Certain pieces of the Peer Gyntt Of Edward Grieg...And I think the adagio of the first symphony of Mahler......Symphony 3 of Gorecki, Requim of Mozart,  and yes...I also often like the eginning of the Wagner opera's....as Parsifal for example....or ofcourse Tristan and Isolde......Some middle parts of Rienzi are very amazing.....due the use use of choire...truly fantastic.....Beethoven is a star in that too.....Only too bad that Beethoven only composed very few Organ pieces, while Back compused too much of this....Im not very familiar with Schubert....I shall look if I have something of him at home or on my harddrive......I have alot of classical stuff that I still didn't listen too. But classical can cause emotion in alot of different ways....like by extremely sensitive piano, violin or cellosolo's or...by fully blown organ work or by a choire....and In general I have not really established a preference (yet)....while in normal music...my preference definatly goes out to guitar and mellotron.

"Lunar Sea is known as a long live favorite....since its not presented on Never Let Go, I asume that its not played on the 1993 tour...but it was used as an opening song on the 1997 and that worked really we'll...its an instrumental track....so the band could pull out all the stops right away....Awsome....Yes, its a song with some varying from, really wild till really sensitive playing......with that I think a typical Camel song."

I just heard it. Yesterday I got the dvd and it is just fantastic. And what a synchronicity that they just start with Lunar Sea. And it so very interesting to hear the difference. Personally I like the one on the Moondances dvd more, especally that it has a much nicher flow there. But maybe also because I heard that one so much yet. And I just have get used to the other one.

What I also noticed is the very much more powerful sounding of the guitar than on the other two dvd's, Moondances and Pressure Points. And I find that for some numbers really fantastic, like a few from the album Nude (Drafted, Docks and Beached) and of course for Ice.

But for others it just seems to much at times. I especially have that with parts of the Snow Goose and I also have it with Lunar Sea. I personally like that more how they did that in the beginning. But on the other hand it is great to hear such diversity, that makes it all so much more interesting.

Well, I was thinking about that. I tend to follow where my interest goes, although my original intention was to use the order of the concerts. So that would lead to the video of Preparation and Dunkirk from the Snow Goose. But if I would follow the timeline of the albums I would have to take Never let go first, becaust that was on the first album. But I think I want to hear the performance of the Never let go concert first. So maybe I can better follow my current interest. And at the moment I am getting even more and more intrigued by Ice.

And that feeling is even increasing now I found something of King Crimson. I recently had listened to some of it, as I read about it all over this forum. And some I really liked. But today I saw someone mention Epitaph and so I went looking, and I found it. And wow, just wow.

What I heard so far from them was at times really intruiging, but it did not have some coherent whole what I like so much. But that song does, and how. From the very minute on I was drawn in. Besides that it was a video with the lyrics shown, and that made it even so much more fantastic. Really good.

That song, together with Ice and Pressure Points are going on in my head now, I am just not sure yet what exactly their connection is. 

About your other post, wow, is that again going to take some time to respond to. You say so many things I immediately want to react to, but what is so difficult to write down at times. But it sure helps me a lot to find the right words. 

"around 3:20, the music is softening down....only keys and beautifull and suddle bass and there we go......so amazingly touching....and then the interplay of keys and guitars......such a different story than the album"

Do you mean around 4:20 with the solo of the bassguitar? I also think it absolutely fantastic. It gives such a special sphere.

"Mozart always sounded too childish to me....Perhaps its due the fact that I can't get that picture out of my head whenever I listen Mozart that I have left from....watching Amadeus"

Yes, I know what you mean. I have the same and the most of Mozart I like, but does not have that extreme magical. With some exceptions, like his requiem and the Commendatore scene of  Don Giovanni. And beside that there are a few symphonies I like a lot, but not to the extend that I want to listen to it over and over again. What I did find very intruiging was the movie Amadeus itself, especially just the fact that he was rather childish, without consciously being aware of his talents. Beethoven in that gives me a different feeling, more of a selfexpression.

"plays Fur Elise...playing with his head on the piano......his eys closed...while theb love of his life is watching him from a distance and when he spots her....he totally freaks out because he regarded it as taking a secret peek in someones diary.....So I guess for Beethoven composing music had the same function as writing a diary.......so he personified himself completely with the music he composed."

I have to go see that movie again. I saw it only once and can not remember it too well. But indeed I think his music was very much who he was. A reflection of his development in life. Really different from Mozart where this talent seemed to have existed already and not so much a result of his own life or with Bach where religion seemed to have a bigger influence.
And as I am finding out more and more, this developmental process is what I like the most, with its top in music. Because of its brilliant way of communication with the unconscious knowledge we all have.

 A few other things I thought that were absolutely haunting.......Adagio For Strings from Samuel Barber

Yes, really good, I also like that a lot.

"Symphony 3 of Gorecki"

Wow, that you like that too! My husband came home one day and said he had something that was the most depressing he had ever heard. And I just had to agree, but indeed so very beautiful.

"Requim of Mozart" 

Yes, there were time I just could listen to that. Really, really intruiging music. Others tend to say it is to depressing, but I don't think that. At times I just like to hear it a lot, no idea why.

"and yes...I also often like the eginning of the Wagner opera's....as Parsifal for example"

Yes, especially Parsifal indeed, I don't know why, but it is just so amazing.

"or ofcourse Tristan and Isolde......Some middle parts of Rienzi are very amazing.....due the use use of choire"

Tristan and Isolde at parts indeed too. Reinzi I can not remember hearing.

"truly fantastic.....Beethoven is a star in that too.....Only too bad that Beethoven only composed very few Organ pieces"

I do not remember hearing those. Somehow I can not think of Beethoven so much with organmusic.

"Im not very familiar with Schubert"

I remember seeing a serie, years ago, about Schubert. It came very late at night and somehow it had a very slow character. But I was so intruiged by it. There his unfinished symphony was played and I just found it so moving. I had been looking but could never find that serie of movie again.

"I have alot of classical stuff that I still didn't listen too. But classical can cause emotion in alot of different ways....like by extremely sensitive piano, violin or cellosolo's or...by fully blown organ work or by a choire....and In general I have not really established a preference (yet)"

I noticed that my preference in classical music is the voice, especially soprano and even more specific not the technical and coloured one, but a pure and rather sober but powerful voice. Or the voice of Maria Callas, which also has that but than with so much passion. I had a tape once with her songs I love the most and there where days I did nothing than play that all day long. But later on I started searching for more sober and pure voices.

"while in normal music...my preference definatly goes out to guitar and mellotron."

Yes indeed definitely guitar. And mellotron is something I just discovered. But it has already very much impressed me. But hearing some music now (like you call Epitaph of King Crimson Mellotron heaven) I must have always liked it with the early music of Camel, without realising it.

Oh and....about your desire to put everything in better words.......Not all things we experience in life can be put into words.....language has its shortcomings and when it comes to describing art and emotion....you can see that very clearly"

Yes, I know that it is probabley not possible. But at this point I am very determined to give it a try anyway. It is just, how do you find the right words. That is what I wrote a few days in despair. Finding the right words to describe what music does… seems impossible.

But the very next day I found the Youtube video with King Crimsons Epitaph. The video I saw had the lyrics on it and the combination of both just blew me away. I never really listen to lyrics, mostly because music is the most important for me. No matter how good the lyrics are, if the music is not extremely addictive, than I am not so very interested in the piece. And in classical music the lyrics were especially not interesting for me. Either religious, or some language I could not understand. But even if I could understand it, it had mostly a second role. Recently I had been listening to Lisa Gerrard. She has a fantastic voice, but here words are no real words, just sound and made up language. Just something she produces herself. And for me that is just enough often. The sound is more important then the meaning, something like that.

But here, with Epithaph, every word was perfecty in the right place. But had also such an impressive meaning to me. Somehow it did express what I am searching for, for such a long time now. It gives words to some point in human development what I am so very interested in which in a way I hear with Ice and also with Pressure Points somehow. I have no idea yet how I have to say how I mean that, but I am certainly going to try. Although that of course will be a very personal intepretation, and maybe not at all what was intended by the writer of that text, and maybe not at all what others hear in it. 

"Music indeed the highest form of art (Schopenhauer was so right about that) and indeed is one of these things that can so totally overblow you that need everything in your body to recover from that.....I was more than fortunate enough to experience a few of these moments in my life......and yes...2 of them were during 2 different Camel concerts."

Yes, I think that I can see what you mean.
 
"But...only putting on a cd...can have such an effect as we'll.....In my other reply I was refering to Quidam, a band from Poland that....toured with Colin Bass in 1998 to promote his album 'An Outcast of the island' (another album with some truly amazing guitarplaying of Andy)....Great concerts..I think I saw 3 of them over a week time"

Wow, really.

"but the album Quidam...that first song Sanctuarium.......absolutely amazing........openimg of a debute.....perhaps one of the best ones ever.....that guitarplaying comes extremely close of that of Andy......But here...the bridge......has first a Cello solo, then a flute solo and then ultimatly the guitarsolo................it leaves you utterly devastated.......only longing to do one thing....listen to it again.....and again.....and live......its equally amazing.....and is the cellosolo often replaced by the Firth Of Fifth solo. If you can get your hands on that.....listen to it"

Defenitely sounds like something I would like to hear.

We are beginning to touch the core of what music all about and that is Aesthetics........Its really time Im going to read some more Kant, Hegel...and yes Schopenhauer...I was wondering where this specific essay is a part of....I think I have most of Schopenhauers works.....but as far as I know his thoughts on music are more or less scattered over his works.....But the quotations you gave indeed are truly interesting...The other great philosopher that wrote considerably about music is Adorno...especially in his Aesthetic Theory...but also on his Essays on music...that are already so long on my list by now....on http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page - http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page  there are alot of essays of Schopenhauer but alot of them are also published in Dutch in Parerga und Paralipomena and the second volume of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_as_Will_and_Representation - The World as Will and Representation  which unfortunatly both.....I have not here right now.

Music can bring you in higher spheres....change your attitude and even the way you see the world. A while ago I had a long talk aout this with one of my best friends. We both agreed that our ideasabout the state, the critical attitude towards our soceity, the thing governments do to people, fooling them around, beating around the bush......preaching hollow ideals....all communicated by massmedia, that turns us all into cardboard opersonalities that have very much idenity of our own.....We have become Sheep...we are Amused To Death....all started with the listening of Pink Floyd......In the first place because I gave Animals and Amused To Death a few spins too much...But later on I began to realize it was also a album from which I said that I never liked it and that is Dark Side Of The Moon....songs as Time or Money, I think turned me into a studious person that absoluty vulgarises any form of materialism if its not contributing to the development and awareness of what we are as human beings. So lyrics can have an enormous influence on people and the way we all see the world. And I truly believe that Roger Waters wrote them for this and only this reason alone...Now with Pink Floyd I saw that amediatly......and saw right away that he had something important to tell.....However with lots of other bands I never had this feeling...The (now clearly) apocalyptic message of Epitaph for example is not something I began to see untill I was pointed to that here and in some other ways....Often perhaps lyrics are not that direct and are most of the time cryptical...have double layers and tell something very serious while giving the impression its been told inwithin a fairytale discours. Especially the lyrics of Peter Gabriel that he wrote in his Genesis days are coming to mind here. It is going to take us years to unraffle the true meaning of this words and stories.

Now Camel is a typical band with which I never really payed my attention to the lyrics....sometimes I wonder why that is...why do you listen more to the lyrics with one band while absolutely not to the other.....id that because the vocals are not that good....Perhaps in some occasions, but Greg Lake's voice with Epitaph is absolutely bautifull and almost equally dramatic and hauting as the music itself...And Andrew's Voice is...equally beautifull....In the begindays it was often someone else that was doing the vocalparts while Andy focussed on the guitar...however...later more and more he became the prominent singer of the band as others left......often the version with him as a singer I think are often awsome, but yet I never really asked myself the question what where his lyrics were all about (with the possible exception of Harbour Of Tears ()which is quite obvious) and Rajez (that I think is refering to T.H. Lawrence and his book, the Seven Pilars Of Wisdom).....Perhaps another reason is that sometimes music is too complexand you simply don't understand what there is been told and you don't really tend to take the effort. Did anyone for example ever did a serious attempt to understand Jon Anderson's lyrics....what Takes From A Topographic Ocean is really about....I must say....this still leaves me puzzled...and in case of King Crimson....often only already the titles are so obscure that any attempt you try to make is pointless, even before you start. With titles as 'Mother Holds The Candle Steady While I Shave The Chicken's Lip.' you can only conclude that lyricwise we should not always take bands all to serious. I remember a special tour that Billy Joel did in America, which was called 'An Evening Of Questions And answers'...in this he toured universities and just took a sit on a stage and explained a song to the audience (usually the ones that were requested)... One of these has been added to his Greatest Hits 4cd box, where the 4 cd is dedicated to that)....and I still remember the last song of that cd 'The Piano Man' where someone asked him to explain this song...and it appeared that he was just describing what he saw around him....and nothing more.....and there is no deeper meaning to it.....'The regular crowd shuffles in, there is an old man sitting next to me making love to his tonic and gin, John is at the bar, the waitressis practicing politics, the bussiness man slowly gets stones....etc. So sometimes we tend to believe there is more to it than writers tend to believe.....they wrote this in a specific state of mind....and can't recall that specific state.....And have no idea why especially this did make him so famous.....

Daniel, I was writing a response to your post, which was getting long and not very structured, when I looked up Adorno on Wikipedia, as I had I never heard of him. Wow, does he have some interesting things to say about individualism, creativity, potential and manipulation of taste.

And when I searched further I found what seems to be the essence of this Aesthetic theory. Very, very interesting. I do not totally get it yet, but I have the feeling it says what I was trying to write down in a very chaotic way.  

 "Adorno asserts the 'priority of the object in art', or what is called a materialist aesthetic, in contrast to the idealist aesthetic of Kant which privileges the subject over the object. For Kant, the experience of art is a product of the perceptions of the subject. For Adorno, the art object and the aesthetic experience of the art object contain a truth-content. Truth-content is a cognitive content 'which is not exhausted either by the subjective intentions of its producers or by the subjective responses of its consumers', and that may be revealed through analysis. Whereas Kant conceives of beauty as a subjective experience, Adorno suggests that beauty mediates between subject and object. Beauty is contained in the cognitive or truth-content of works of art. As Adorno writes in Aesthetic Theory: 'All beauty reveals itself to persistent analysis'. But works of art 'are not merely inert objects, valued or known by the subject; rather, they have themselves a subjective moment because they are themselves cognitive'. It is in the shared experience of object and subject, the joint analysis, that beauty is revealed."

Whole article here: http://www.english.emory.edu/Bahri/Adorno.html -

http://www.camellive.com/2009/03/evolution-of-the-band/ -

One of the most remarkable things about Camel, is their evolution over time. In the early 70s the name Camel was chosen by the four members of the band, Peter Bardens (keyboard), Doug Ferguson (bass), Andy Ward (drums) and Andrew Latimer (guitar). In that setting they made four albums, the first one called Camel, a good debute album, but not yet a coherent whole. The second, Mirage was already more structured and had just a few, but rather long tracks. The next album was their first concept album which was based on a book by Paul Gallico. The Snow Goose is their most famous album which they performed live with the London Symphony Orchestra in 1975.

The are some new released of old Camel albums announced. Following are the travklists of these new versions. And........as it seems....there will be a live version of Air Born included in the new version of Moondances.

Thanks for the links, great to see there are so many live recordings on it. I see on disc 2 of the Snow Goose the excerpts by the Old Grey Whistle Test. I love those!

In my email notification of this post (strange, not here) I saw the link to Progwereld, but it did not work. I still got there by the homepage  http://www.progwereld.org/ - Great site btw. 

So it seems that they did Air Born also live in the Hammersmith Odeon. Hope indeed that it will also get on the new dvd version, and that they will also get Song within a Song and Spirit of the Water on it, well at best the whole concert of course.

Much to my surprise I found the Deluxe Editions of The Snow Goose and Moonmadness and the Remastered Raindances on Deezer to listen for free. As I was not sure how legal that was, I looked at Wikipedia but it seems that Deezer has an agreement with Universal in some way.

But one moment the albums are clickable and the next moment they are not. Now it seems that you have to be logged in to be able to listen to them, while other albums are also available if you are not logged in.

Anyway I have listened to all of them now and am especially surprised with the BBC recordings of the Snow Goose. That sounds very special, sort of with an echo. Very prominent guitar and very clean somehow.

And further I am very glad to hear Air Born live on the Moonmadness album. And other tracks that are not on the Moondances dvd.

And it is for the first time I heard the album Raindances, more jazzy than prog but also great to hear.

Well, all in all many hours of Camel while working on the computer!

This is the link (hope it works) and it are the first 3 albums. http://www.deezer.com/en#music/artist/12826 -