dude wrote: Please forgive me for introducing what some may consider an "Elitist" thread,but since the invention of the modern piano  by Christefori(1709 i think) ushered in a whole new wave of music(and expression) there have been many composers of classical music,Who do you beleive were the most "progressive" and how do you beleive they may have influenced modern progrock...EG ELPs excursions into the classical realm are an example( i can think of other examples but i am very interested in your thoughtful opinions!!)(this ties in with an earlier thread on classical for proggers..which i beleive is importent given the nature of the music we love!!)

belIEve! Are you dyslexic, dude ? About your question, I think BACH has influenced many people (for the "church" organ as said previously in another thread danbo and the points-counterpoints) : Yes' "Close to the edge" or "Awaken" for the use of the organ, ELP (on "Tarkus"), The Nice (they have released a prog version of the Brandenburger Concerto), Robert Fripp, Ron Jarzombek in Spastic Ink, Steve Morse (the title "point counterpoint" on Southern steel or "flat baroque" on Coast to coast relate clearly to the BAROQUE era, and Bach in peculiar)... Otherwise, I think CHOPIN influenced many shredders : Tony McAlpine, Vitalij Kuprij... The french romantics (ST-SAEANS, DEBUSSY) had a huge influence on Kit Watkins  (just listen to some of his compositions on Happy The Man's first record : "Starborne" or "Hidden moods") and on the brazilian violinist Marcus Viana (leader of the symph-prog band Sagrado Coraçao da terra and one of the most gifted violinist I heard in my life). Tony Banks was also surely influenced by some romantics. And LISZT almost surely influenced guys such as Jordan Rudess. However, jazz-oriented bands such as Magma or Soft Machine were probably more influenced by guys such as Duke Ellington than F. Chopin. And the RIO and Zappa-influenced bands have surely more in common with Stravinsky, Varèse and Ligeti than with the romantic composers. Oh, I forgot to mention Mussorgsky without whom "Pictures at an exhibition" would never have been.

 I apologise on his behalf, Dude.

Shall I start publicly pointing out all the errors/poor English in other people's reviews?

I think not.

In any case, if you feel moved to correct a prog buddy, there is the Private Messenger. (Much more considerate and diplomatic, you know.)

Re classical: Beethoven was a proto-progger. Lizst, Bach, Tchaikovsky, all influential.

Still, I'm certainly no expert in this area. Any classically trained/educated musicians out there?

Vibrationbaby wrote: Back to the main topic. Focus were the masters of neo-classical rock along with Gentle Giant (see my review on Hamburger Concerto). Nothing against Emerson. I'm a big fan of the Nice & ELP but classical musicians tend to see his re-workings of the classics as butcher jobs. I'm sure Mussorsky was doing backflips in his grave when Pictures came out.

I don't know much about Mussorsky, but maybe the old composers would be flattered and intrigued by the attention given to their music in a new format, and might have embraced the new technology, like music-writing programs on computers. Perhaps Beethoven would have loved to have played with a synth.

We'll never know, but it's fun to speculate!

Now those "hooked on classics" dance mixes of the disco era -- they were unforgivable CRAP!

dude wrote: PETER,SORR.Y I KEEP FORGETTING THE PM...MY BAD

I didn't mean you, Dude. You're a gentleman.

dude wrote: YES I HAVE OFTEN THOUGHT OF THAT IMAGINE EMERSON LAKE AND BACH...HOLY MOLY!!!! OR PiNK FLOYD WITH GUEST ARTIST MENDEHELSSON how they would have done the "fingals cave" overture

Cool concept! Bach live, with Genesis!

Tchaikovsky with ELP and the LSO!

Just imagine Yngwie Malmsteen duetting with that 17th-century violin shredder Tartini!

And Stockhausen, Varese et al have surely done more for electronic music than anyone? Frank Zappa (may he rest in peace) was profoundly influenced by Varese, from the accounts I've read. Stockhausen, of course, invented sequencing back in the early 1940s. Check out his music - especially Gesang Der Junglinge or Kontakte - it will blow your mind, or send you into a deep state of total confusion...

Vibrationbaby wrote: Back to the main topic. Focus were the masters of neo-classical rock along with Gentle Giant (see my review on Hamburger Concerto). Nothing against Emerson. I'm a big fan of the Nice & ELP but classical musicians tend to see his re-workings of the classics as butcher jobs. I'm sure Mussorsky was doing backflips in his grave when Pictures came out.

A common mis-conception I believe.

Keith Emerson has received much criticism for his arrangements of the classics.However it has not always been dead composers that he has 'targeted'.You might be interested in the reaction that he got from 2 very much alive composers at the time.

Firstly ELP - Toccata (based on a peice of music by Argentinian composer Alberto Ginastera) .Emerson asked for permission from Ginastera for ELP to use his music.Ginastera said ok but I want to hear it first and invited Emerson to dinner.The inviting was done through Ginastera's wife as he couldn't speak English(she could).Anyway they had dinner and afterwards it got to the point of listening to the tape that Emo had brought with him.After it finished there was a bit of a silence then Ginastera shouted ''Terrible,terrible''.Emerson was naturally a little preturbed and then looked at Ginastera's wife who said something like '' It's ok, my husband loves it!''. Hence the glowing endorsement on Brain Salad Surgery from Ginastera ''Keith Emerson Has Beautifully Caught The Mood Of My Peice''.

The second concerns Fanfare For The Common Man.ELP originally recorded this with an extended studio jam that appeared on Works Vol One.The first 2 minutes is faithfull to Copeland's music and was a surprise UK hit (No2 in 1977) when it was released.When ELP sought Copeland's permission to use it they only sent the first 2 minutes fearing that the other 7 minutes might cause a problem.On hearing the 2 minutes Copeland denied permsission as he felt that ELP's arrangement was too close to his original score.So they tried sending him the whole track.Then Copeland was happy and gave them permission to use it.

These 2 examples seem to suggest that classical composers are much less protective of their 'babies' than we would naturally assume.They like the fact that other musicians are inspired by their music and don't expect extreme reverance towards protecting every little hair of it.

WARNING: convoluted run-on sentence ensues!

In answer to the original question: by the way we view the history of music, the aknowledged masters of classical music from the  Baroque period (J. S. Bach, Handel, Pachabel, Vivaldi), to the "Classical" classical period (Beethoven, Hayden, Mozart), through the Romantic period (Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Wagner); were by definition progressive, taking what had come before and adding to it to go someplace new.

We remember the above composers precisely because they made something new and brilliant that shocked their contemporaries and survived unto the day.

Stormcrow wrote: WARNING: convoluted run-on sentence ensues! In answer to the original question: by the way we view the history of music, the aknowledged masters of classical music from the  Baroque period (J. S. Bach, Handel, Pachabel, Vivaldi), to the "Classical" classical period (Beethoven, Hayden, Mozart), through the Romantic period (Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Wagner); were by definition progressive, taking what had come before and adding to it to go someplace new. We remember the above composers precisely because they made something new and brilliant that shocked their contemporaries and survived unto the day.

Exactly!

Glass-Prison wrote: Rachmanhoff

Correction : Rachmaninoff.

I recently started to listen to Tchaikovsky, man it's brilliant! In terms of progressive classical I think Shostakovich is a genius. Some of his compositions give me the same experience as prog, symphonies 5 and 10 in particular. Several RIO-bands have picked up elements from him.

Carl Orff, the Magma influencer?? I think Orff is more romantic. Carmina Burana is highly recommended. Great arrangements with choirs.

Many of the Italian progbands are influenced by the classical composers. My opinion is that bands like PFM (in particular), Banco, Le orme and Latte e Miele combines rock and classic as good as ELP. But not as good as Gentle Giant of course...

[QUOTE=Glass-Prison]I'd like to point out one of my favourite classical pianists. Rachmanhoff, an american composer from the turn of the century has an interesting style.QUOTE]

Yes, Rachmaninov is an impressive classical composer. I've played many of his pieces on the piano. My favorite is the n° 2 (1892) in memory of A.Arensky.

wow... ehhh well, i think that almost all of the early 20th century russians composers, like Rachmaninoff, Shostakovich, Prokofiev etc, has a common, the adventure, anger, suffering and "prog" heart in any of their composition, i recentlly went to a concert, and they were playing a whole piece of Shostakovich, and believe me, i almost cried!!!, also, guys like Chopin and Saint Saënz has this mania of the strange tempos mixed with waltz an d so many other things, perhaps, we don't listen to those things as often as we might want in the progressive realm beacuse it is very hard to play, even for gifted musicians like prog players, however, i suggest you to find something about ESPERANTO a great band playing Saint Saënz!!!

peace

mmmhhh,

Gorecki, Berio, Stockhausen, Janacek, Weber, Holst....?

dude wrote: LUCAS:YOU MENTIONED THAT THE NICE HAD A PROG VERSION OF THE BRANDENBERG CONCERTO CAN YOU TELL ME WHICH ALBUM IT IS ON?? I AM INTERESTED!!

Actually, I don't remember. I heard this version on a radio broadcast. But I'll see if I can any link to this song.

lucas wrote: dude wrote: LUCAS:YOU MENTIONED THAT THE NICE HAD A PROG VERSION OF THE BRANDENBERG CONCERTO CAN YOU TELL ME WHICH ALBUM IT IS ON?? I AM INTERESTED!! Actually, I don't remember. I heard this version on a radio broadcast. But I'll see if I can any link to this song.

Sorry : can find.

progchain wrote: mmmhhh, Gorecki, Berio, Stockhausen, Janacek, Weber, Holst....?

Gorecki, great Polish composer (his most acclaimed work is the "3rd symphony"), but if you want to know more Polish composers, check out Lutoslawski, Penderecki, Paderewski, Preisner, Wieniawski and Kilar.