Miles Davis to be added to the Prog Archives
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50686
Printed Date: December 02 2024 at 00:00
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Topic: Miles Davis to be added to the Prog Archives
Posted By: darkshade
Subject: Miles Davis to be added to the Prog Archives
Date Posted: August 03 2008 at 20:24
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this has been argued plenty on another thread and there seem to be more reasons why Miles Davis SHOULD be added to Prog Archives than shouldn't. And most of the reasons given for why he shouldnt be here are mostly technical problems in terms of part of his discography prior to 1967 is jazz, so there would be too many jazz albums added (thus why his albums after 1967 would be added) and this gets in the way of the "all-or-nothing" policy this site has. But there werent too many musical reasons why he couldnt be here. in fact, his large discography post-67 completely fits the guidelines for being able to be added to this site. Im saying this "all-or-nothing" policy of having entire discographies added works for almost all bands and artists here because none of their careers started until after rock and roll was formed. Miles Davis was around before rock existed way back in the 40's, it's not his fault he was born in a different time. I know of no other progressive artist where this is a problem, in terms of discographies. He made more jazz-rock/fusion albums than almost ALL the bands and artists on this site. i think he should be an exception to the rule, besides, how many artists or bands has this problem come up anyway? plenty of prog bands from the 70s keep releasing non-prog albums, yet they keep getting added to PA and flooding the site. so you decide ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Replies:
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 03 2008 at 20:29
| I don't really think he should be added at all. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 02:35
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I'm adding Miles Davis this week when I get home from Rome... too long overdue... not added for the most stupid of reasons. Few have any quibble with his merits.. and some get the picture about how ridiculous it is to have a jazz-fusion section here and NOT have the man here.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 02:37
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No.
This is progressive rock archives. Not progressive jazz archives. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 02:47
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ehhhh... wrong answer.... Jazz-rock fusion is a sub-genre of these archives thus... prog. Whether you agree or not.. .it is what it is.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 03:00
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Miles was clearly in the realm of Fusion by 1969, absolutely no doubts about that.
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 03:03
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Well...I suppose its some improvement...at least he's progressive. But apparently this matter is decided. It seems this thread isn't needed and should be closed... ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 03:48
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Thank you Michael! I'm looking forward to his addition, as Dick Heath has pointed out many times, Miles was not the first person to mix rock with jazz, but Miles did much more than that. Check out albums like On the Corner (progresive African music played with electronic instruments), Agharta and Big Fun (Psychedelic rock influenced by Stockhausen's Moment Form and played with jazz technique and fluency) plus so many other recordings that transcend simple boundries in which he combined all the influences he readily absorbed.
When the brilliant bop guitarist Mike Stern joined Miles jazz-rock band in the early 80s, Miles pulled out a portable cassette player with Van Halen on it and said don't play that jazz sh*t, play this! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 04:34
  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Easy Money wrote:Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 04:34
 Are you adding his whole discography or only his fusion period? ------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
Posted By: Desoc
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 04:42
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Good call. How about this being an opening for a new category: Progressive Jazz? We're all for expanding barriers, are we not? Why this introvert and irrational "rock" straitjacket? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 04:48
pfff... that is what we have a forum for... 95% of the forum will never hear.. nor review 75% of his recordings. It isn't for not knowing about them. It is sad .....but true I guess. Davis is not some unknown schmuck and if people don't know his 100 odd album.. it isn't going to be because they aren't spotlighted here If people want an overview of his career... they can go to Allmusic.com for example. I\'m sure his fusion albums will be added upon addition... and the others? Others can add them as time goes on. His discography will be listed in the bio as part of the addition, as it should be done. However... adding the albums to the database? As I posted before.. let others do that if they wish. Anyone can add albums. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 05:25
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Desoc: I think this progressive jazz should have a relation to rock, like Herbie Hancock and his Mwandishi-sextet do (but midsixties soloalbums don't), since this is a prog rock rescource site. I don't think that approach would be irrational. Btw: Fortunate thing for PA that Tony Williams added Lifetime behind his name in ca 1969, otherwise they would have the same problem as they have with Miles. No one would disagree with Miles' inclusion if it started in 67-68 here. But if , as I suspect every album starting somewhere in the late 40's are added, its not hard to understand why some are strongly against. Is Herbie's Mwandishi/Headhunters-era next, then? Or is the silly complete-discography-or-nothing rule gonna stand in the way? Edit: Noticed Mickey's answer to some of what I wrote about, after I posted. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 06:17
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Roctopus... one thing I've noticed over the last year is people have finally been 'chilling out' regarding additions here. Does that mean that people have agreed with all of them. No, I'm sure it doesn't. What I hope it means though is people have have finally got it through their thick heads that there are many ways of seeing prog and even related.. and people see that many views here are taken into account. Will there be a fit about Davis... I severely doubt that... anyone who does will probably be eaten alive since most here will agree he belongs here and if there are albums from the 1950's on this site... or god forbid.. reviewed on the main page... most people are frickin intelligent enough to know that they are NOT prog jazz-fusion albums but just an extention of PA's policy. Kind of Blue will get some reviews here, yet the person who mistakes it for a prog album will get laughed out of this forum. I will be seen for what it is.. a landmark essential album of all music put out by an artist that LATER helped define one of the main sub-genres of prog here. Personally I love the album ..yet probably won't review it ..for if someone here hasn't heard it.. they are beyond hope already and god knows what else they haven't heard. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 06:35
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I think the real problem with this inclusion is that there are different types of Jazz-Fusion. Some is very firmly rooted in Jazz, some is closer to Rock or Prog (I've even seen the term "Prog-Fusion"). I'm not an expert when it comes to Miles Davis - but if his Jazz Fusion albums are too firmly rooted in Jazz, then I don't think he should be added. EDIT: We should also keep in mind that listing Jazz-Fusion as a sub genre of Prog Rock is already a bit of a stretch ... it mostly happens by chains of associations, like Yes -> Soft Machine -> Mahavishnu Orchestra. As interesting as Jazz-Fusion may be, even artists like Mahavishnu or Return to Forever are in the "outskirts" of prog, and including artists which reach even further into the realms of Jazz may be too much. But *if* he is added then we should also add John Coltrane, and Ornette Coleman. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 06:46
huh  though thanks for putting the soap box in front of me.. so I will stand upon it again... if the suggestion.. which I know Raff had put forward more times that I could count... had been implemented to redefine 'Proto-prog' to 'Influences on Prog' and of course 'Prog-related' to 'Influenced by Prog' then we could truly have a realistic picture of these two subs. Since those two never came with whisper of J-R fusion... or prog... of course there is no reason to have them added. Same as Brubeck... who was as big an influence as ANY non-tradional rock artist on prog as anyone here. Yet it is just as silly to include him in 'proto-prog' or jazz-rock ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 06:48
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Man With Hat and Pnoom! are both reasonable, and not thickheaded but intelligent guys, and I can see why they react in this thread. (I'm still all for, even if he got 250 albums with no fusion featured) No ones probably thinking: God forbid if anyone reviews Scetches of Spain or Someday my Prince Will Come! I'm sure most of us loves a lot of the purely jazz Miles albums. I know I do. ... But the logic in choosing to add selected albums, or adding albums from a specific period of time, with some artists (like Miles and Herbie) are just so obvious. I know the owners disagree, but maybe they'll change their minds if they hear it suggested 1000 times or more. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 06:53
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disagreeing is not thick-headed. Surely you recall the reactions in the past to some additions.. that is what I am talking about.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 06:58
exactly as I said in the parallel thread to this.. it is common sense.. you add the albums that are the basis for his inclusion now.. upon his addition. If people want to add and review his earlier albums for example.. by M@X's policy.. they are free to do so.. but having such a large disography is not.. and shall not be an impediment to being added. Again.. this is a prog site.... we spotlight the music.... let sites like Allmusic.com deal with the artist as a whole. The problem that some have is thinking that Miles Davis is .. or is not prog. What the f**k does that mean... .really. Like Genesis... many of these artists had phases went they put out prog albums.. and phases when they didn't. Miles Davis was a significant factor ...with essential albums in the realm of J-R fusion.. thus... he will added there. No problem there is there... yet some will.. pffff... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 07:13
True, but those were just very bad examples. Loads and loads not in the PA has released a couple of fusion albums. Bobby Hutcherson, Julian Priester, Jan Garbarek, Mal Waldron, Herbie Mann, Eddie Henderson, Wayne Shorter etc... basically everyone not too old of those jazzmen that survived the late sixties (except Coleman, Cecil Taylor and some of the other purely avantgardists or traditionalists) did. I'd actually love to see those fusion albums included, but not if it means having to include Flautista: Herbie Mann plays Afro-Cuban jazz!, Do the Bossa Nova or the thirty Jan Garbarek new-age muzak albums as well. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Desoc
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 07:14
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MikeEnRegalia: It's a bit fascinating that you spend quite some energy defending the addition of metal artists that at best can be described as in the distant periphery of prog, like Blind Guardian (whose addition I do support as I do have an inclusive view), but that you oppose similar additions in genres that you (by your own words) don't know that well. Don't you agree that policies should be uniform, and that inclusive policies in one genre demands inclusive policies all over? Or what makes these cases different? I think that we have to accept - given that this site has a vision of being a society of users, and not only of a few owners with veto power (which is fine if that is the vision, but I have understood it otherwise) - that people have very different opinions about what is acceptable under a progressive rock umbrella. For fair treatment and objective standards, inclusive policies - in all genres - is the most reasonable. Which is why I support adding artists that can be considered and defined as "progressive jazz" or "adventurous pop" or "contemporary progressive" or whatnot - which is just as prog as the vast majority of "Tech/Extreme" artists IMO. Prog rock resource or not - the rock part is perhaps not only a positive constraint. I believe that adressed your point as well, Rocktopus. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 07:22
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*Not that there's anything wrong with some bossanova. Can't say the same thing about newage. I get it, Mickey. I'm finished posting about this. I know that kind of Blue won't end up in the top fifty, take over the front page just because it gets added. If any Miles album enters it surely will be Bitches Brew or in A Silent Way. And that would be a good thing. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 07:29
i would say MD should be included, even if only for the "Bitches Brew" , "Jack Johnson" and "Man with the Horn" albums, but the rest is purely jazz going in to hip hop territory...
please, sir...when are we having a "Prog Blues" section..?
 -------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 07:30
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I think it's important to remember the sites called prog ARCHIVES and should include any one who shaped and contributed to prog. Mile should clearly be included for being one of the most important innovators.. well especially compared to most of the bands on this site.My only con is his large discography does have many albums whichfor example are strict cool jazz and singly aren't prog related but then the above i feel is far more important.I guess it depends what this site represents to you,there's some that care and some that dont. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 07:44
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Of course! Miles made jazz progressive, electric, and more interesting. Who can say that "In a Silent Way" & "Bitches Brew" wasn't the embryo to 70's Jazz-rock-fusion? |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 07:54
I don't exactly "oppose" this addition ... from what I've heard (Kind of Blue, Bitches Brew) I simply don't think that the artist should be added as Jazz-Fusion. It's just an opinion, and I will happily accept any decision in this matter. I'm aware of what you're saying re Blind Guardian ... maybe this is indeed a similar situation. IMHO we'll have to find experts on Jazz-Fusion and let them decide, but that doesn't mean that nobody except them is allowed to have an opinion.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 08:20
Maybe not Jazz-Rock/Fusion, but still very influential on Prog. Adding Miles Davis would surely lead to many, many requests of other Jazz artists to be added. Coltrane and Coleman would make sense to be added as prog related IMO, *if* (and only if) Miles Davis was added. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 08:24
Don't mention that now! I felt Miles is close to be added. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 08:29
opinion noted Mike... but you only gave half a one hahha.... where then is he to be added.... I can cook up that his grandfather was a paesano... I can add him in RPI I guess if J-R isn't suitable enough for the one who is recognized as one the main founders of it just to make note.... I'm not adding them them on a wing and a prayer that it will hold up under scrutiny hahha. We've been discussing him for some time. Martin has written a bio.. and will be used for his addition if he chooses.. and also under Dick's 'wing', who has increased my knowledge of this sub immensely especially with his help when I added Tony Williams. It hasn't been a question of if he is to be added... if I may be frank... anyone with a passing knowledge of J-R fusion should see Miles's place in it, but a matter of how he was to be added. For that... I guess I'm taking the bulls by the horn. Things get discussed to death here to the point where addtions don't happen. That is our collabs know.. is a problem that is trying to be resolved. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 09:06
^ I really don't care about this addition ... it's simply not my area of expertise. I'm beginning to feel sorry for having posted something here in the first place. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 09:39
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damn... was hoping you'd tell me that RPI was better for him
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 10:49
 BTW: If it is already decided that he'll be added ... why didn't you say so right away? Or did you ...  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 13:51
| Is this poll for Miles to be added as prog related or as a prog artist. Addition polls are often inconclusive because they are not clear on this, so some say no he's not prog, others say yes, he's prog related. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 14:06
| Hi Bob, I think a lot of us were probably assuming he would be in jazz-rock fusion, maybe I'm wrong. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 05 2008 at 04:20
I always speak of fitting octagonal pegs into round holes here... he was a hard one to peg.. so we thought about it a bit... exerpts from a PM between Martin and myself ISP/RPI/WTF/KMA? : not wasn't Italian enough ... Symph?: not regressive enough for symphonic Post-Rock? : not *........?* enough Xover: not pop enough Eclectic: distinct jazz influence hahah hard ..errr.. heavy prog: wasn't hard enough to be heavy RIO/Avant: too melodic and listenable figured J-R was as good a place for him as any..... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 05 2008 at 21:30
Yes i assumed everyone knew i was going for Miles to be included under Jazz-Rock/Fusion. i would highly disagree with having him under Prog-Related, though i understand why he would be there.
I'm for this inclusion as well, i just never brought it up since i felt having Miles added was (a little bit) more important. however, those 2 periods of Herbie Hancock are serious holes in this site's JRF section. QUOTE=Rocktopus] No ones probably thinking: God forbid if anyone reviews Scetches of Spain or Someday my Prince Will Come! I'm sure most of us loves a lot of the purely jazz Miles albums. I know I do. . [/QUOTE] Sketches of Spain is actually pretty proggy. I'd probably review it.
i dont like this statement, mostly due to the fact that that is not how Miles' musical career went. yes he went into hip hop (more or less acid jazz) on his last 1 or 2 albums, but he didnt just go from jazz, do a few fusion albums, then do hip hop. His fusion era is large and expands beyond the late 60s and 1970s. Not to be mean mystic fred.. anyway, I'm for his addition to this site 100%. There are (as i said in the original post) MORE than enough reasons why he should be on this site. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 03:11
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I believe that Davis would be a terrific addition, and absolutely support it. And incidentally, since Coltrane was mentioned, some day I'd like too see him here. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Draith
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 05:07
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I hate the "all-or-nothing" policy, personally. You know that pop-rock band Journey? Their first couple albums are at least prog-related, odd meter, extended solos, instrumentals and what not. And let's not forget Genesis 80s album having obviously nothing to do with "Symphonic" prog, if any prog at all. It's true, Miles Davis himself as a jazz artist can be considered "progressive" in the sense he founded most of the subgenres of jazz music itself, and I can kind of see everything from bitches brew onward on this site. But even so, do we really want to start calling even that progressive rock? What's next, John Coltrane? (who did make many proggish album in the jazz sense) I say throw out the all-or-nothing policy or don't put MD in at all. As well, just because something is fusion doesn't mean it's progressive, though Bitches Brew just may count. Besides, if we added all of his discography I would just have to give Kind of Blue a masterpiece rating. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 06:27
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I agree most, Draith. (especially hating the all or nothing policy) But before Bitches Brew, Miles had already recorded Water Babies, Miles in The Sky, Filles de Kilimanjaro and In a Silent Way. Not progressive enough? ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 06:31
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^ Not "Rock" enough. I think that in order to be included here the music has to be progressive *and* must be rooted in or at least be strongly influenced by Rock.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 06:44
The thing with Genesis's 80s music is so often pointed out, I think there's no end to it. Still it's completely irrelevant, in whatever context of " how come" it is used: Genesis are mainly one of the greatest symphonic prog bands in Prog Rock history, they're credited as that for their about 9-10 albums from the 70s. In comparison, their pop becomes irrelevant to what they truly stand for here. The " all-or-nothing" policy is used simply because this site is structured on bands, not albums. As long as Genesis, as band, is regarded as prog, anything officially by Genesis must be included in their "discography" page! Now, comparing pop-band Journey with...a seminal artist in the realms of Jazz, Fusion and music itself? How comes that? I've yet to know much of Miles Davis' work, so I apologize for only coming in to respond to this wrongly-seen IMO vision of " all-or-nothing". I do, however, remember opinions that Davis' music dates way back in 1949, which is an year when prog rock didn't even existed. T'will be interesting to see how this comes along with the rest... ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 06:49
That's indeed the problem ... the genres are structured on bands, but it's the albums which are reviewed. As long as this problem isn't addressed, we'll always have those kind of problems. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 07:00
I just ment to point out that Miles started his fusion period a year (an a half) before. Those four titles I mentioned are strongly influenced by rock. Maybe to a lesser extent than Bitches Brew, but still jazzrock fusion. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 07:15
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^ at least at Wikipedia all albums before In a Silent Way are listed as Jazz.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 07:19
Not a problem actually. Reviewing a band would be more of a " study" written for that band, instead album reviews are as normal as ever. We do review the albums of that band We do listen to the albums of that band, when evaluating for addition But we also have to stick with the band altogether, not with just albums, when adding a band. We can very well consider those 5-6 albums by David prog, but we ought not to say "add those, leave the rest" or " consider those, forget about the rest" , because here is where the site, as it was structured, doesn't allow it. -------------
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 07:25
Well, they are jazz too, of course. But they are all well known albums from his transitional period. If you check out (the fantastic) Complete In a Silent Way & Bitches Brew-Sessions you'll notice that almost all of these four albums are included on those. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 08:07
True, but the Biographer can list those albums in the "Why this artist must be listed in www.progarchives.com " paragraph with further explanation if necessary and can even highlight career periods that are decidedly not "prog" if they feel the need.
As Micky has said, the JR/F albums would be added as part of the initial addition. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that it will take a period of time to add the remaining albums, which would be added as part of the on-going process of completing the discography - this could take weeks, months (or even years as more obscure albums come to light). ------------- What? |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 08:08
Hi Mike, Have you ever listened to Jack Johnson, Live at the Fillmore, Pangae, Agharta, Dark Magus, Live Evil, Man with the Horn and We Want Miles? All of those have lots of rock, not sort of rock or funk-rock, but lots of psychedelic rock and hard rock, almost punkish at times. Those aren't his only albums that have rock on them, but those are his albums that have the most hard-rock. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 08:24
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^ I never listened to those albums ... but I listened to many Miles Davis songs over the years, without knowing from which album they were. I only own Kind of Blue and have listened to Bitches Brew, but I'll try to listen to some of the other albums from the time around 1970. I know that he was an eclectic artist ... some of his music is pure Jazz, some is Fusion, some is more experimental, some is more traditional. Unfortunately listening to this kind of music *in detail* is a very time consuming task ...
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 08:25
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^ + Get up with it, On the Corner, Big Fun... I was only writing about the starting point for his fusion direction. Thought Mike was as well.
------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 08:40
I regularly prefer seeing a bit more extra mention over the artist's prog qualities rather than a list of essential albums that are good for prog, but, anyway, sure, it's okay. Even more, each competent reviewer can stipulate the proggyness of an album. The idea is different. Outside these simple explanations ("X is prog because of.../thanks to...etc.), if a band itself has an enourmous career out of which particular albums hint the "prog" factor or if the style is only tangent with prog rock, then we have a more complicated addition to think over. But if the above "parameters" are fine, than the addition itself should go fine as well. -------------
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 09:24
Start with 'What I Say' from Live Evil. The solos are a mix of rock and jazz, but the beat is pure Stooges/MC5 70s proto-punk hard rock. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 14:51
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actually after his hiatus, he came back in 1979 since sessions for The Man With The Horn were from 79 till 81. The 80s jazz-fusion albums are underrated. albums like The Man With The Horn, We Want Miles, Star People, Decoy, etc... and the names who played with Miles during this time are (as always) a who's who in the jazz world. John Scofield Mike Stern John McLaughlin Marcus Miller George Duke Branford Marsalis Bill Evans Quincy Jones Gil Evans Don Alias Mino Cinelu Al Foster Robert Irving III Daryl Jones Bob Berg Steve Reid Joe Sample Kenny Garrett ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 14:45
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and just an update... . spoke with Martin today . he is putting final touches on his bio for Davis.. and when he is happy with it. Davis will be added.. .the bio will focus in on the years that relate primarily to the site. We'll make sure we have references to where those who are interested in exploring him deeper can go... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 16:10
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Bought the vinyl edition of In A Silent Way today ... listening to it now. Great music, but while I certainly see why it's called Jazz-Fusion I don't hear much Rock in it. It's experimental, epic - but in my book it's not "prog".
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 16:22
eehhh.. no problem with me Mike... to be frank... some of the PMT's additions. for example, have been known to raise an questioning eyebrow or two on the 'prog' front. I promise you a few from your friends at Xover as well. We just call them as we see them and recognize we all have different notions of prog or not. Thankfully we are collaborators.. not consentioners hahahha.. Nothing would get added.------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: August 08 2008 at 23:15
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You know, after being one of the many that argued that a tenth of of an artist's work shouldn't serve as the basis for inclusion; I have to say that , upon open-minded reflection ... well ..... Miles is not a bad choice to add to PA's data base. Yes, he played a big part in many of "true " Jazz's forms & styles. But he also was part of the initial wave of fusion acts, he influenced many others outside of this "disputed" genre, along with playing a major role in "advancing" music in general. So, if you want to say that you want to include "PROGRESSIVE ARTISTS" )caps for emphasis(... then MD is one who belongs. Add him to Proto-prog, Jazz Fusion, prog related, whatever. Unlike the Joke-all, I mean Rock N Roll Hall of Fame that let him in to be hip, reasonable arguements were made for his inclusion here. And yes, as a well known musician, many were able to bring up well meant objections that were valid. BUT, disregard his starting point, never mind where he ended up ! Just see that , for a certain period, his "oeuvre" was deserving of inclusion. And furthermore, as we "honour" groups like Deep Purple, the Doors, and others as "Proto-Prog", Miles surely had a good share of influence on much of the "players" in prog and what they eventually came up with. Hopefully, we carefully consider this as not opening the door to big names as Coltrane, Satie, Montgomery and others. Mostly, as they ... comparatively did not have the same "proof " , if you will, to support their joining the PA "club". ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 00:54
Well, at least with such an inclusion we could open the books on Metallica again ...  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 01:29
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Hi Mike, although my priorities run towards John Cale and the JH Experience for proto prog and/or prog related, or the Experience for JR/Fusion, I can relate to your case for Metallica, and them over Priest too.
The thing about Metallica is that they were one of the first bands I heard in the 80s that were able to recapture the introverted misfit emotional quality that much of the early 70s prog bands had. There is a lot of talk about structure and technique, but that early 70s pathos is hard to recreate, and Metallica had it for awhile. By the way Mike, if you want to hear the prog-rock side of Miles, your still listening to the wrong records, check the above posts for better recommendations. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 03:18
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alright, get these albums. Live-Evil Big Fun The Man With The Horn Dark Magus A Tribute To Jack Johnson (the most rock) if you like those, then get On The Corner and Star People next. This is great that he's being added! one of my favorite artists of all time. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 03:48
You stole the words off my mouth Mike. I was going to say that, with Miles Davis here, it's time to re-start a discussion of a band that has similar merits for inclusion, although in a complete different category (whatever each person's opinions may be about their music and its comparison with Mr Davis)....
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 04:19
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you both stole the words out of my mouth hahhaha.. I WAS dead serious in the collab area. I'll add them.. and deal with the consequences. (read between the lines) I didn't agree with that. however.. if you all are talking PM. I don't have to tell you that that is giant can of worms you all would open. I'd be the first to say you better move Iron Maiden to PM under the same criteria. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 05:05
Great points and the most important one relates to even 1/10th of Davis's work warranting inclusion, because 1/10th of Davis's work is equivalent to maybe 20 or 30 or 40 ( go figure) inclusions on PA for new artists who also deserve to be here but do not necessarily have the credibility yet...
As for Coltrane......who knows
 Great news BTW!!! ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 05:20
well said Chris.... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 08:07
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also... since we are dancing in the minefield.. I'm just to going to step on one. Next to Miles Davis.. . the next best example of a artist whose career is generally not regarded as 'prog' that merits inclusion based on their impact on prog.. or a particular sub-genre is... yep... Deep Purple. their clones are in Heavy Prog... and 5 albums that if not undeniably heavy prog.. then VERY debateable which should be enough considering the way this site opeerates. It should be enough to have them placed where they deserve to be. or more than that.. where they are most accurately placed... I'd like to seethe walls finally get broken down.. . this site is not about spotlighting 'prog artists' (whatever the hell they are) and dealing with labels that others have put on artists.... but the music... and sometimes the music comes from those who came from other places than prog.. .or went later in other directions after prog. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 08:37
| Hell yeah DP belongs!!! Listen to the jam that comes at the end of Space Truckin on Made in Japan and try to name one other band in the world that can play like that. |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 08:42
jams...? is that the new length of prog rock these days? Overall, I think Deep Purple are fine-enough hard rock, so they can stay in PR. About the "clone"-bands in HP, the genre was actually designated to draw some of its juice from hard rock. -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 08:49
hard rock?...oh no... and heavy prog was created for the bands that ...well.. quite simply... that imitated Deep Purple. Strongly Hammond based.. 'heavy' progressive rock. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 09:23
Hi Phillip, I understand your point. I meant 'jam' in the broad modern sense of the word, ie almost any music can be called a jam. Although it is not Supper's Ready or Karn Evil 9, if you listen to the semi-improvised piece of music I am referring to you can hear Lord and Blackmore's tendency to turn their solos into mini-compositions within a song. It is true that DP's music lacked in prog output as the years went by, but their long version of River Deep Mountain High was the first prog song I ever heard and it made me eager to seek out the likes of Crimson, Yes etc. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 09:25
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God... I LOVE that song John... my favorite from the Mk 1 lineup... complete ..and majestic prog at it's finest. putting that on now as a matter of fact. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 09:38
better talk with David...it isn't an all cloning-Deep Purp-and-Led Zep genre. and...are Deep Purple not hard rock? have they not played hard rock? -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 09:44
and back a page or two Vic... did not Genesis play droll pop music. Labels.. .tags... pfffff.. what they did later does not change what they were.. .not for a mere album.. but for more than what MANY groups listed here have had for a CAREER hahahha. I know this is David's call if he wishes to push it.... in infamously spoken words.. .we are merely discussing it. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 09:49
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and for those who think that Deep Purple should be kept out of Heavy prog because they were not 'known' as a prog group.. again... neither is Genesis. You can't judge A one way.. and not view B the same way. Both became 'famous' as something other than as a prog group. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 10:08
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A bit like Uriah heep being in Heavy prog, personally do not understand that but do agree they were an obvious inclusion somewhere and thankfully the genres overlap. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 19:53
I thought Genesis was regarded as a prog group during the progressive rock boom (as well as an art rock band), and, of course, is considered a Prog group for their '70s output. I don't think Deep Purple ever became part of the Prog canon like Genesis did. Speaking personally, and so it means nothing from an argument standpoint: 25 years ago, I thought of Genesis (referring to the Gabriel years I knew) as Prog, along with groups like Yes, Jethro Tull, Focus and Rush, but thought of Deep Purple as proggy. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 20:23
The title In a Silent Way sort of hints about this not being his most rockin' album. Try just about every album released after that one. Darkshade listed some great titles on the previous page. They all really rock (more than Bitches Brew), often harder than conventional heavyrock (especially Dark Magus, Agharta and Pangaea). My current favorite from his fusion period right now is Get Up With it. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 21:12
Greg... my post.. was a targeted one... as per my usual style.. I was speaking to certain people... without quoting. That was directed at those who base inclusion and placement here on the 'fear' factor.. or worse.. tags and labels others have put on groups without actually considering the 'music'. That having Deep Purple in a fully prog sub-genre would cause the unwashed masses to riot and generally have a coniption fit because they are not known as prog. Now... in texts in progressive rock.. damn near every one that I have read .. ALL have mentioned Deep Purple. Just who is it that doesn't consider DP a progressive rock group.. .yep.. those outside of prog who make their livings pigeonholing groups and putting tags on them. My point is... what tag has been thrown on Genesis by these so called 'experts'.. yep.. their best known incarnation...as a pop group. The same as Deep Purple... who after 1974.. were as Rico called it.. a good hard rock group. Funny thing is... after the mid 70's.. a hell of a lot of groups began to get a lot less 'progressive' . That was my point. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 09 2008 at 23:14
how could i forget those 2 albums?!!? Agharta is in my top 5 favorite Miles Davis albums Agharta is the superior albums against Pangaea, since they were both from the same night, you can tell Miles' chops were going down a little on Pangaea, which was recorded later in the night. But both are fantastic jazz-fusion world/funk albums. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 10 2008 at 01:18
Understood. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 10 2008 at 04:10
The only problem I have with this inclusion is that he recorded so many albums which aren't Fusion. But if he gets added to that genre *all* the albums in his discography will be listed as Fusion, and this might create some serious problems. Of course it's the same for other eclectic artists in the database - Blind Guardian were mentioned and are a good example for this problem. I guess it's simply something we have to live with on this website ... ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 10 2008 at 04:54
I find that a little annoying too, but that's just how it is. If I wanted to, I could play about 20 hours of electric Miles fusion-era without hearing the same track twice, and I don't have everything. That's more music than most bands here recorded in their whole career. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 10 2008 at 08:15
| The whole diccography policy (which I don't neccessariy support) does save us from even more bickering. Could you imagine all the arguing that would happen if we went through Genesis' later output and tried to decide which albums belonged and which didn't. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 10 2008 at 08:25
exactly.. which is why I suspect M@X wanted that avoided and just said. whole discographies... so we are free to add all albums.. regardless of considering progressive nature since there is enough bickering about the artist alone without splintering it into individual albums hahaha. The reviews are where such things are judged.. and explained to people. Anyone who picks up Invisible Touch expecting SEbtP is an idiot for not looking at the reviews first hahaha. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 13 2008 at 22:24
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should i start a Herbie Hancock thread? being he was mentioned a few times here and on the other thread. He has the same problem Miles has with the discography thing, except HH made rock albums early in his career (68 or 69 with Fat Albert Rotunda) and a lot of his early jazz 'hits' were given a 'rock makeover' like Watermelon Man, Maiden Voyage, Catelope Island, etc... not to mention he's the only Miles alumni from the 60s and 70s who made progressive rock/jazz-fusion to not be here on this site. Shorter, Zawinul, McLaughlin, Williams, Corea, etc are all here, not to mention his other peers like Pat Metheny, Jaco (WR), Al Di Meola, and made waaaaayyy more progressive music than these guys did. After Miles and Larry Coryell, Herbie Hancock was the most influential and active in the jazz-fusion movement. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 13 2008 at 22:32
Yeah, he's been suggested a couple of times in dedicated suggestion threads and many times in other threads. I agree that Hancock should be here. Some old threads for reference (all the old threads, unresponded to since before February, are locked -- part of speeding up the forums) but for reference:
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 14 2008 at 05:05
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so since they're locked, i could just start a new thread? and perhaps quote from the older threads?
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 14 2008 at 06:18
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I would say yes.... but I looked why they were locked (didn't figure the kiddies got in and sh*t all over the floor ahahaha). they were closed because HH has been eval'd I guess.. and rejected. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 14 2008 at 10:13
Will you start it soon? I look forward to it. Been searching for every Mwandishi-related fusion album I could find the last two years, and there's quite a few excellent ones. I found strong debuts by most his band members: Eddie Henderson (two albums actually, Realization & Inside Out with virtually the same lineup as the original Mwandishi sextet), Bennie Maupin (The Jewel in the Lotus), Julian Priester (Love, Love) Buster Williams (Pinnacle) These are are all a direct continuation of Herbie's Mwandishi project. And excellent contributions too. Looking for a couple of Charles Earland albums (Leaving This Planet & The Dynamite Brothers) featuring techno wiz Dr. Patrick Gleeson. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 14 2008 at 10:50
| I think there is at least one more Julian Preister album in that style, I can't remember the name. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 14 2008 at 14:03
Polarization. Haven't found it yet. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 14 2008 at 15:14
With albums like this, why wouldnt HH be on this site? Fat Albert Rotunda - 1969 Mwandishi - 1970 Crossings - 1972 Sextant - 1973 Headhunters - 1973 Thrust - 1974 Man-Child - 1975 Flood - 1975 Secrets - 1976 Sunlight (with Tony Williams and Jaco Pastorius) - 1978 Monster - 1980 Mr. Hands - 1980 Magic Windows - 1981 Dis Is Da Drum - 1994 Mr. Funk - 2001 ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 14 2008 at 15:50
I know, I know... there's only three real Mwandishi-sextet albums (I got four-five live-bootlegs). But some of his bandmembers made some brilliant substitutes for fans like myself, who's crazy about this period. And I'm not that much of a fan of his Headhunters/funk albums. I know its top quality stuff, but its just not my bag. Hancock is in the lineup on the Eddie Henderson albums himself, and especially Realization sounds like a natural continuation. I think of that one, Love, Love, The Jewel in the Lotus and to some extent Inside Out as Mwandishi-albums (although I guess they're not, technically speaking). Just ordered Polarization. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 14 2008 at 17:37
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and Miles Davis is added.... great job guys that's a victory for the good guys over the evil pesilance that is using 'tags and labeling' (have I mentioned today just how much I hate that ) to determine additions, it is the prog music that counts, not a name.. not even a career......... great bio Martin http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3906 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3906 ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: August 14 2008 at 18:11
Great work guys!!------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: August 14 2008 at 18:28
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Couldn't agree more!
------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
Posted By: M@X
Date Posted: August 15 2008 at 00:35
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Guys... as I already suggested in the past ... we want complete discography of each artist in PA . Also .. can some suggest a couple of mp3s for Miles ? ------------- Prog On ! |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 15 2008 at 00:47
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wooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i can suggest many mp3s if you want. i just have to remember how to submit them. length doesnt matter right? cause he's got a lot of longies.... this is a great moment. I feel happy than I and many others fought hard for Miles' inclusion. this has been a long time coming
i have Bennie Maupin's The Jewel in the Lotus. It's phenomenal, has a lot of Mwandishi sounds, and is quite haunting actually ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 15 2008 at 00:51
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wow there's a lot of missing albums. I shall get to work. Very good bio, the only thing i disagree with is that Miles' electric period really began in 67 and has been discussed to death. Also, his jazz-rock years continued into the 90s before he began making more acid jazz/hip hop albums but still glad to see him here! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 15 2008 at 01:30
Hi Max, You will get a complete discography of Miles eventually, it's just going to take some time. I will keep adding as will many others. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 15 2008 at 02:42
That's exactly the same argument as the one that runs; Metallica recorded many albums that aren't Prog Metal...
I don't agree with Miles' inclusion, but I guess it's too late. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |