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Learn to listen, listen to learn...

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Topic: Learn to listen, listen to learn...

Posted By: song_of_copper
Subject: Learn to listen, listen to learn...
Date Posted: July 17 2008 at 14:11

A little while ago I made a post here about the little soundbite-worthy salient aspects of personal musical taste. Well, I'm back again (uh... yeah. Sorry about that...), and I hope this post makes some kind of sense... it's a little jumbled, so I hope you'll bear with me! Embarrassed

Basically, let's pull our focus outwards from such minutiae as musical tags, to the cosmic scale...

I hope you'll forgive my incoherent flights of fancy with this post. My brain is a little mushy, owing to lack of sleep... Embarrassed

Anyway, the subject of my current ramblement is... listening styles, and where they come from. Let's be clumsy and heavy-handed and divide the human race up into two very simplistic categories of listener: the 'Music Consumer' and the 'Participant Listener'. If you are on here, I'm guessing that you are a 'Participant Listener', by which I mean that you do not just sit there and absorb music as if your ears and mind were made of auditory blotting paper - you meet it halfway with all kinds of thoughts, feelings, ideas, inspirations, weird mental tangents, etc. And your listening equipment can cope with things that sound unfamiliar, or unconventional (in fact, you probably quite like that!). You may be at the point in your life when you can hear something pretty obscure for the first time and just, well, 'get it'. Or at least you have the experience to know that patience and repeated listening helps with those things. I don't reckon any of this has much to do with age or gender - from what I can tell, social stereotypes of that sort fall apart in the presence of this kind of music.

So, with that preamble concluded, here's the main question of the post:

Is your super-epyck-fantastique music-listening ability an innate gift, or a skill you have learned?

I don't mean your *ability to enjoy music* in a general sense - of course that is hardwired into almost all human beings - here I'm talking about the conscious application of ears and brain to the business of deciphering something that cannot necessarily be appreciated as 'aural wallpaper'. (Forget music as background - to my mind that is like preferring chewing gum to proper food...)

Going back to those broad categories, I think many people see listening as a passive experience, and perhaps that is just what many people are used to. For many, music is just there to ameliorate silence, rather like a nice shade of paintwork enlivens your living room wall... But there is a huge difference between the almost subliminal awareness of a nice colour and the curiosity and engagement you might feel if you looked at an interesting painting. In order to wring more than the obvious visual pleasure out of the experience of looking at a painting, we need to use responses of a higher order than just recognising colours and straightforwardly figurative shapes, and it's just the same with music.

So that's the area I'm interested in with this post. Now for a rephrasing of the actual question: have you always felt able to turn your consciousness towards an onslaught of music (reasonably complex music, at that) and discern things in it, or is this something you have learned how to do? Do you feel as though the straightforward and obvious would never have been enough for you, and that you would have sought out 'something more' whatever happened, or was the world beyond the Top 40 a blinding revelation to you, that you never expected?

Whilst you're mulling that one over, permit me to throw in a handful of observations about the appreciation of unusual/complex/weird/clever music - including but not limited to the 'progressive' sort...

One... Often - indeed, more often than not - people that like music that is something more than 'Mary Had A Little Lamb' seem to be musicians themselves, covering a spectrum from enthusiastic amateur dabblers (like yours truly!) to bona fide prodigies (I'm guessing there might be a few of them around here...). Not just musicians following someone else's black dots, either - but songwriters, composers, tuneslingers of all makes and models. Within that broad spectrum I include everyone from those who have always made up songs, informally and untutored, ever since they can remember, to those who decided at around 14 years of age that The Guitar was Their Sword (or possibly The Drums were Their Fusillade) Tongue

; not forgetting those who have a proper musical education and write tone poems and suchlike... Big%20smile

Obviously, any kind of personal perspective on musical idea generation - where that creative stuff comes from - would give you a shortcut to empathising with whoever wrote that complicated and eccentric piece you are listening to. It seems to me that empathy is essential with music (although I wonder whether that's just me being me, but let's not start up another conversation about personality types... LOL

) - music is language, it communicates feelings more directly than any word (of course, those feelings may be as simple as "Hey ladies. Hear me play this guitar solo so damn fast. I am nimble of digit like you wouldn't believe. Rawr. Call me!" Wink

). But of course, it's also an abstract pattern. Perhaps I'm mistaken and you don't need to be a touchy-feely girlcreature to enjoy it - maybe there's enough elegant mathematics in there to please the most pathologically masculine psyche! Anyway, any and all of the above could be relevant I guess, as to your lauded status as 'Participant Listener'...

One b. ... Let's take this point a little further. What is your brain doing with the musical data that you are hearing? As a musician and/or composer, are you somehow better able to decode things that are musically less than obvious? My guess on that would be 'yes'. Of course, you will probably be better at decoding the obvious stuff as well! (The other day I was listening to my boyfriend singing along tunelessly to something or other, and I was suddenly filled with curiosity as to what was going on in his brain. (Female readers with male partners: allow yourselves one knowing sigh in response to this common everyday occurrence! Wink

) When you try to sing, how hard do you try, what are you trying for exactly, how is it that some people just innately know the placement of the semitones and tones that make up the scales of our musical culture, whilst some others are all over the place... Trying to relate this to my own experience, I'm suddenly thinking now about spelling and grammar. I'm a good speller (most of the time! I really must sort out those reviews of mine that have typos, it's so annoying!!), who generally doesn't have to try on that score. I can also sing in tune without toil (or at least, be aware of when I'm not in tune, which is half the battle, really...). Is that the same sort of territory? The same kind of weird and wonderful spatial/structural awareness for sounds and... meanings of sounds? Confused

Damn, I want to be a neurospsychologist when I grow up! Geek

) [Haha, it is always the way that to boast of one's spelling prowess leads directly to a spelling mistake! Embarrassed

]

Two... I recently realised something about myself, something that really surprised me. I like a decent amount of dissonant creepiness with music. Evil%20Smile

That's not to say that I'm going to devote the contents of my ipod to Funeral Doom or nothin'. Dead

But cutesy, sugary, laid-back, pastoral, gentle, trippy, etc., are tags that generally put me off. Now, I don't want to generalise too appallingly here - there is nothing wrong with music that 'sounds nice', and there is plenty of music that is complicated, different and pleasant at the same time, but is it possible that the majority of casual music listeners (as opposed to hardcore musos) would rather listen to something undemandingly pretty than something astringent and gritty (to coin a witless rhyme!)? Again, don't think I'm being a snob. Whatever floats your canoe, I say. Big%20smile

But I think this is true of other areas of 'art appreciation', too. A nice watercolour of the English countryside is great, and more than satisfactory to many people. At the opposite end of the scale is the pseud who wants to stand in front of a conceptual representation of Woman's Eternal Pain (for example!), rubbing his/her chin and going "Hmmm..." Tongue

I guess what I'm saying is that there is another spectrum in here - the one in which some people want ease, comfort and immediate understanding of everything that is being communicated, whilst in the far opposite reaches of the continuum, there are people who like to torture themselves with controversial issues, quadruple meanings, or even the awful question "But is it art...?"...! Confused

Two b. ... Of course I should acknowledge here that there is more to music than musical content alone - especially popular music! There is the whole question of identity and culture as well, a way of defining yourself by your choice in music, a shared experience/activity with all kinds of relevance way beyond what key and time signature it's in... But my experience of musical enjoyment has largely been solitary, Cry

however much I'd like it to open the door to some kind of commonality with others, and I'd hazard a guess that this is true for many people around here, so I'll leave the 'communal identity' bit to one side, I think!

Three... It is a well known phenomenon that people who would never think to listen to lengthy, serious, less-than-straightforwardly-tuneful instrumental music are often perfectly happy to absorb an hour or two of contemporary composition via a movie soundtrack. Somehow, the presence of a visual makes it ok - relevant to something they are experiencing, perhaps, rather than an intrusion on their worldview. Or perhaps they would just find it boring without the moving picture to keep them occupied... That's an interesting point, actually - forget what interests you for a moment: where do you find your boredom?! Are you bored by simplicity or by complexity? By too much niceness, or too much angst? Maybe that's the key... Shocked

(Also, doesn't it seem like all 'serious artists' feel obliged to do a silent movie score at some point...?! LOL

)

Anyway, let's bring this steaming heap of awful waffle back round to the original point. Tongue

All of the above is fair enough, but where does it come from? Are you a born musofreak, or was your passion forged in the fire of your experiences?! Were you doomed from the outset to this life of ceaselessly searching for that obscure album that you simply must hear - and when you hear it, spending hours thinking about it, even possibly writing about it... or is all this a 'lifestyle choice' that you consciously embarked upon?

Enquiring minds want to know. Ermm

Replies:

Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 17 2008 at 14:29

Great post, and unfortunately too many distractions at the moment to post something half-way intelligent or comment on much of the post. It's surely both nature and nurture for me when it comes to my music-listening abilities. Part of it is based on experience, and part of it comes from my genes.

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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts

Posted By: Alucard
Date Posted: July 17 2008 at 14:40

....in fact this is also one of my often returning questions : where does it come from :....I spend a couple of days with the young kids of a friend and the creative output is just amazing....so as for myself ....in the house where I grew up lived quite a lot of musicians among them a hardbob quintet who played in the cellar and for a long time I just fall asleep to the sound of hardbop and jazz is kind of a natural rhythm to me ....then I always felt let's say Bartok & Zappa as the most groovy and funky music around... I find it much more easy to dance to 'Inca Roads' then 'Dancing Queen'.... might be some kind of pre-birth experience or genetic material? the rhythmic perception is linked to the heartbeat and a lot of "primitive" danceforms are actually 100% Prog in tems of rhythmic complexity....a regular 4/4 beat is in a way completely un-natrural and mechanic.....so "freakiness" is always a metter of context....in the middle of an hungarian dance ensemble a regular 4/4 stomper will be the freak while...very interesting topic ....much more to say , but I have to run....

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Tadpoles keep screaming in my ear
"Hey there! Rotter's Club!
Explain the meaning of this song and share it"

Posted By: MikeDupont
Date Posted: July 17 2008 at 16:52

very nice post! Boy would i like to have a 1 on 1 conversation with you in person :P But I honestly think it does takes both a bit of born curiosity and training to learn how to like many of these "progressive" bands. The people who do seem to enjoy music like magma, or certain krautrock bands, or whatever, are the people who are able to apply it to a stereotype rite off the bat. They may think its like music that "smart people listen to" or its "trippy" or is the music that the dungeons and dragons kids listen to. Perhaps they think its all science fiction and fantasy etc. etc etc. And so a lot of people prob. don't it for the MUSICAL pleasures, but rather the atmosphere and the picture the music creates in a stereotypical sense.

When I listen to Gong for example, my friend thinks i listen to it only to be different and act like i do drugs and stuff. Not the case! (infact im against drugs) I just listen to music like that cause I like the Jazzy influences mixed with mellotron and an ironic sense of humor. This is just one band example, when I listen to VDGG, another friend thinks im just listening to it to be overlly pessimstic or be filled with agnst, but honestly I often prefer what the rest of the band is doing rather than Hammil's lyrics. (not that those are bad!)

So yea, acctually enjoying music for the music side of it...takes a certain amount of training...but some people indeed are born with the want for "something more"

Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: July 17 2008 at 18:12

"Is your super-epyck-fantastique music-listening ability an innate gift, or a skill you have learned?"

Bit of both really. An innate willingness to try things beyond the beaten track, a (*modest voice*) highly intellectual outlook, and an inherent dislike of the overwhelming majority of chart material, rap etc. led me to 'prog' in the first place. However, at first, having virtually no real listening experience, I couldn't really understand the depth, musicianship and why it was so brilliant. Much as I loved my early prog acquisitions from getting them, coming back to them now, I'm aware of so much more that's going on (especially the bass parts).

After a year and a bit of serious listening time, I've become a much deeper listener, and I do tend to look for multiple ways to enjoy things. I'm definitely more instantly receptive to more 'out there' stuff, and I can hear a hell of a lot more of what's going on. Larks' Tongues In Aspic (aka. Best album ever) wasn't an obvious favourite at the start, though I liked it. Now it is.

so, to the point... I suppose I had a natural tendency to take things seriously and listen more actively and imaginatively than most would, but it's only after combining that with a fair bit of listening experience that I could really use that inclination to fully enjoy my music. I have no doubt that I'll enjoy it even more as I begin to understand even more about it.

1. I'm not a musician per se. Learning piano/electronic organ to get a basic understanding of something musical, but I'm still very rudimentary. Can't help there. Perhaps that's the tendency in reverse: wanting to learn an instrument to better understand what I listen to.

2. I'm pretty out there on both ends of the 'prog' spectrum. I can listen to a bit of Magma or Amon Duul as happily as to something like Genesis, Dire Straits or Asia. Several of my favourite tunes clock in under 5 minutes (shock, horror). I can go quite far out in my other artistic interests, too, though perhaps not as far, but I think the other art forms tend to shock less than music when they are very unconventional.

2b. I like to think I'm a rebel. Noone else does.

3. Repetitive basslines a la Camel's Lunar Sea bore me. Otherwise, as long as there's variety, I don't really mind anything overmuch. I think there are less expectations in wait for what a movie soundtrack will be, and the visuals are so dominant for most films that focus is withdrawn from the soundtrack.

Great topic Thumbs%20Up

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 17 2008 at 20:18

Another excellent blogette Miss M.

I don't believe you can educate people to appreciate music beyond a certain level – the ‘height’ of this barrier varies from person to person, but is intrinsic and immovable. In other words, people are born with a natural potential and through learning can achieve that potential, but cannot reach beyond it. Of course, this ability is not one-dimensional or simply defined; it is complex and has many facets, which is why some can listen to repetitive drone and detect the subtleties while some can listen to technical-flash and admire the virtuosity and some can do both while others can manage neither. So even if you learn how to listen, the ability to do it was always there, to quote Doris Lessing: “That is what learning is. You suddenly understand something you've understood all your life, but in a new way.”

(Of course if this IN-- personality trait was a generalised prerequisite to liking Progressive Rock then only 11% of the population stands any chance of ever liking it

I cannot class myself as a musician as such I freely admit to not being a musician; I am inept at playing any musical instrument and my singing skills are negligible; I have no formal musical education and everything I now know I learnt as I went along. So I do not possess the ability to analyse music to the nth degree like some of the people here can. Yet I do make music, something a started doing very late in life after many years of being a listener, (whether this music has value to ears other than mine is not something I can judge or comment on), so from my own point of view I’d say that any ability to create music stems from the innate ability to listen to it rather than the other way around.

(to put things into perspective, I'm currently listening to a Enya tribute album

)

-------------
What?

Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 18 2008 at 01:25

A wonderful blog, Melissa. One I also cannot help but think I had some part in... i.e. your thoughts held over from out chat in the wee hours of the morning. Wink

As for the subject matter to hand... my brain is not functioning as well as it should, at this time of the morning, so I may have better thoughts when I am more coherent.

I only play Harmonica slightly well (or slightly bad) and also do not class myself as a musician. I could not pick out time signatures and/or notes that well.

Like Dean, I feel "my prog passion" comes from an innate ability to listen to technical music.

Not all musicians like prog, some even hate it. Some may be saying this to rebel against and appear "cool" and some may genuinely have a dislike for (to their mind) "pretentious" music played by musicians with over-inflated egos.

I personally like a wide variance of music and I am always seeking something new and unique. I tend to do this with other aspects of life too. I like to discover a really good piece of original prose, for example.

However, relating to the "abstract" comments, I personally dislike most modern abstract art and just cannot see anything good in some random (again, they're not random to others) painted wavy/straight lines on a canvas. However, I put this down to not having a vivid enough imagination and not particularly having an interest in art.

Music is different though. Art in Music, especially abstract art in music, usually "clicks" for me. However, some musical artforms, such as Noise and also the music of composers, such as Iancu Dumitrescu, leave me scratching my head. Music needs to have a bit of progression, as well as a bit of a melody (not much of one though). Ambient music usually bores me to tears and I always seek something heavier or more avant-garde. In fact, my disdain for ambient music goes so far, even a Reiki CD irritates me (it's supposed to be calming LOL

) and so I try to get something familiar that I enjoy, stuck in my head to counteract it.

Dean makes a good point about the IN-- Myers-Briggs Personality Types too. I do think that Introvertness does have a key part to do with it though. Those of us who are less active in socialdom tend to do more constructive things with our time, or we read and/or listen to music. The latter two can often be attributed to intellect (but not specifically, of course) as well. Does Intellect (which I feel is immeasurable) and Introvertness correlate? Maybe.

I also feel Introvertness is mapped out at a young age. Perhaps it's genetic, perhaps it's more linked into how one subconsciously initially perceives the world as a baby. Those who are introspective may therefore have deeper emotional feelings and seek out music for emotions, rather than technical abilities.

People listen to different music for many different reasons. As somebody else said, someone can maybe dance to Dancing Queen because of its beat, melody and general happy feel it brings them but others of us can dance to something dissonant and repetitive, because it uplifts us in another way.

Extroverted people (I would say...) are likely too busy with their lives to fully immerse themselves in technical music. They are probably more likely to just want to socialise and listen to the odd tune when they have the time. That is obviously not always the case though.

It is a fascinating subject and one I shall have to think more about when I'm not thinking of my rumbling stomach.

Well done, M. Clap

That is certainly one finely crafted and well thought out blog.

EDIT: I have not read over what I have just written, so it may make no sense whatsoever!

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Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 18 2008 at 12:39

Alucard wrote:

Haha, a man after my own heart! Dancing to 'Inca Roads': I've so been there. LOL

(Mind you, I've probably danced to 'Dancing Queen' as well... er... Embarrassed

)

I'm sure you're right about childhood exposure playing an important part, although thinking about the music that got played in my house when I was little, I'm not sure whether that's so true for me personally. (The most played LP was... The Carpenters greatest hits! LOL

) I envy you your hardbop lullabies!

What you say about 4/4 being 'unnatural' suddenly makes me think of the word 'boundaries'. Maybe the simpler/more square the rhythm, the clearer the boundaries are - and some people will like that, some won't. The balance between enough 'boundedness' and enough freedom is probably quite important to individual musical taste...

Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 18 2008 at 12:51

song_of_copper wrote:

Haha, a man after my own heart! Dancing to 'Inca Roads': I've so been there. LOL

(Mind you, I've probably danced to 'Dancing Queen' as well... er... Embarrassed

There was a program about The Carpenters on BBC Four the other day, including two of their concerts and mucho respect to them. Some of their songs weren't too bad! Big%20smile

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Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 18 2008 at 12:55

MikeDupont wrote:

very nice post! Boy would i like to have a 1 on 1 conversation with you in person :P But I honestly think it does takes both a bit of born curiosity and training to learn how to like many of these "progressive" bands. The people who do seem to enjoy music like magma, or certain krautrock bands, or whatever, are the people who are able to apply it to a stereotype rite off the bat. They may think its like music that "smart people listen to" or its "trippy" or is the music that the dungeons and dragons kids listen to. Perhaps they think its all science fiction and fantasy etc. etc etc. And so a lot of people prob. don't it for the MUSICAL pleasures, but rather the atmosphere and the picture the music creates in a stereotypical sense.

Haha, yes indeed, I wish I could have a musical conversation of this sort in 'real life'! Tongue

Re. what you say about stereotypes, I guess that ties in with the stuff I glossed over (about aligning yourself with a 'tribe'/using music as a social cue as to your identity, etc.). Re. Magma, of course that is what smart people listen to. Wink

Haha, well, maybe... Some music (certainly Magma) comes as a package with *other stuff that isn't music* - ideas, attitudes, that sort of thing. It may be difficult to truly 'get' or enjoy it if you find the attendant *other stuff* not to your liking. (It's interesting to see how many people seem kind of morally outraged by the very idea of Kobaian, for example. Shocked

)

When I listen to Gong for example, my friend thinks i listen to it only to be different and act like i do drugs and stuff. Not the case! (infact im against drugs) I just listen to music like that cause I like the Jazzy influences mixed with mellotron and an ironic sense of humor. This is just one band example, when I listen to VDGG, another friend thinks im just listening to it to be overlly pessimstic or be filled with agnst, but honestly I often prefer what the rest of the band is doing rather than Hammil's lyrics. (not that those are bad!)

You know, that kind of phenomenon tends to be true of music you're not quite sure of/don't like. The stuff about 'oh, it's lame music for stoners' or 'only pretentious morons listen to that'... that's usually an after-the-fact justification of some innate negative response - or a response to the image, rather than the actual music itself. It's the same kind of thing as when people respond to clever marketing, but believe they bought Product X because it's better than Product Y. Big%20smile

It's really easy to make those assumptions, but I've had a few of them confounded of late. I don't think I'll ever call any music 'pretentious' ever again...

So yea, acctually enjoying music for the music side of it...takes a certain amount of training...but some people indeed are born with the want for "something more"

I firmly believe that with some music, you kind of have to 'want to like it' to get past the barrier of it being totally unlike anything you've heard before. If you get exposed to a variety of different musical norms and forms, then your 'familiarity landscape' expands hugely, making it much easier for you to 'get' unusual music. The perseverance/curiosity required to do that may be something that's hardwired, who knows...

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 18 2008 at 13:11

TGM: Orb wrote:

"Is your super-epyck-fantastique music-listening ability an innate gift, or a skill you have learned?"

Bit of both really. An innate willingness to try things beyond the beaten track, a (*modest voice*) highly intellectual outlook, and an inherent dislike of the overwhelming majority of chart material, rap etc. led me to 'prog' in the first place. However, at first, having virtually no real listening experience, I couldn't really understand the depth, musicianship and why it was so brilliant. Much as I loved my early prog acquisitions from getting them, coming back to them now, I'm aware of so much more that's going on (especially the bass parts).

Oh, yes - this I agree with. I knew full well when I wrote the original post that 'both' was the correct answer... but it's really interesting to read people's experiences and ideas on this topic! Big%20smile

I like what you wrote about going back and listening to familiar music from a fresh/more experienced perspective. 'Musical culture' doesn't only cover style but also what it is normal to focus on when listening. If the prevailing style you're used to hearing is all about vocals and the occasional guitar solo, you might find it difficult to orientate yourself in some instrumental piece that's all about synthesisers, or whatever. Because of what I've been hearing lately, my ears have swapped focus to the drums and bass. I heard one of my favourite songs the other day and started noticing percussiony bits that I hadn't really paid attention to before. It's like my 'mental surround sound system' has been tweaked... LOL

After a year and a bit of serious listening time, I've become a much deeper listener, and I do tend to look for multiple ways to enjoy things. I'm definitely more instantly receptive to more 'out there' stuff, and I can hear a hell of a lot more of what's going on. Larks' Tongues In Aspic (aka. Best album ever) wasn't an obvious favourite at the start, though I liked it. Now it is.

It's funny how certain things start out seeming so weird, but as you get really familiar with them, it's almost 'easy listening' to you! (I mean that in a good way...) I find it difficult sometimes to imagine what certain things might sound like to someone with totally different taste to mine. Things that I think are devilishly melodic and catchy send some people running from the room in tears. Wink

so, to the point... I suppose I had a natural tendency to take things seriously and listen more actively and imaginatively than most would, but it's only after combining that with a fair bit of listening experience that I could really use that inclination to fully enjoy my music. I have no doubt that I'll enjoy it even more as I begin to understand even more about it.

This sounds pretty familiar to me. Big%20smile

1. I'm not a musician per se. Learning piano/electronic organ to get a basic understanding of something musical, but I'm still very rudimentary. Can't help there. Perhaps that's the tendency in reverse: wanting to learn an instrument to better understand what I listen to.

An excellent point that I hadn't thought of. Thumbs%20Up

2. I'm pretty out there on both ends of the 'prog' spectrum. I can listen to a bit of Magma or Amon Duul as happily as to something like Genesis, Dire Straits or Asia. Several of my favourite tunes clock in under 5 minutes (shock, horror). I can go quite far out in my other artistic interests, too, though perhaps not as far, but I think the other art forms tend to shock less than music when they are very unconventional.

I think music shocks in a subtler, deeper manner. There's something disturbing, creepy and unsettling about something that sounds really weird - it gets to you, wordlessly and powerfully. But some modern art goon being all outrageous and shocking just for the sake of it is much easier to brush off, somehow.

2b. I like to think I'm a rebel. Noone else does.

Ahh, we non-obvious rebels are the most dangerous. Some people rebel simply by their appearance; others rebel by what's on the inside... Wink

3. Repetitive basslines a la Camel's Lunar Sea bore me. Otherwise, as long as there's variety, I don't really mind anything overmuch. I think there are less expectations in wait for what a movie soundtrack will be, and the visuals are so dominant for most films that focus is withdrawn from the soundtrack.

Great topic Thumbs%20Up

Thanks. Great response! Clap

Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 18 2008 at 13:29

song_of_copper wrote:

[QUOTE=TGM: Orb]"Is your super-epyck-fantastique music-listening ability an innate gift, or a skill you have learned?"

Bit of both really. An innate willingness to try things beyond the beaten track, a (*modest voice*) highly intellectual outlook, and an inherent dislike of the overwhelming majority of chart material, rap etc. led me to 'prog' in the first place. However, at first, having virtually no real listening experience, I couldn't really understand the depth, musicianship and why it was so brilliant. Much as I loved my early prog acquisitions from getting them, coming back to them now, I'm aware of so much more that's going on (especially the bass parts).

Oh, yes - this I agree with. I knew full well when I wrote the original post that 'both' was the correct answer... but it's really interesting to read people's experiences and ideas on this topic! Big%20smile

I've also been hearing drums and basses a lot more recently too. It's strange how something you think you're familiar with, sounds completely different when you start listening out for different instruments. I listen to a lot of jazz fusion, especially Elton Dean and Soft Machine. The latter has the very dominant sound of John Marshall's drumming and it really helps me pick out drumming on other tunes. There's an Opeth song called "The Drapery Falls" and towards the middle/early end there is a guitar section that is really really catchy. However, if you listen more closely, it's actually the drums that are dominant but you hear the guitar first.

I was brought up on blues, so I really like soulful guitar solos but I am still getting accustomed to the style of jazz fusion guitarists, like Allan Holdsworth. He's all about speed and tapping, mostly and it just feels a lot less soulful to me.

Larks' Tongues in Aspic is a good album to really focus on drums and percussion. Wink

I have also had this experience. I find Koenjihyakkei very easy listening. "Rattims Friezz", to my ears, sounds like it would make a good pop song and I can imagine it being used in a television advert. Yet if anyone not familiar to their music hears it, they'd run a hectare or two!

I have tried to imagine listening to my music from the point-of-view of a new listener (or someone not into this style at all) and it's impossible.

This phenomenon also works against us. We search for more and more avant-garde or experimental pieces and end up disappointed. I have been there. It means I had to step back from listening to music for a short while. Now I try to focus more on the classic albums (I mean, classic albums to me, not classic albums to everyone else!) and occasionally venture into new territory.

*snip*

[/QUOTEj

-------------

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 18 2008 at 13:30

Dean wrote:

Another excellent blogette Miss M.

Gosh, thanks Dean! Embarrassed

Very interesting point you make - it almost seems like you're suggesting that there is a musical equivalent to the IQ. (i.e. some kind of abstract categorisation of our ability/facility, that can be tested and measured... and who the hell knows what it really means...! And of course it's up to us to use it for something and 'achieve our potential'... or not... Tongue

).

I like what you say about people's preferences. I'm wondering whether there's something in that about detail v the 'bigger picture'. Each kind of music has a sense of scale to it, I find - some things repay close attention (like maybe the drone stuff you mention, where you could miss all kinds of nuances if you weren't really listening), whilst others are too fiddly and pointillistic to make any sense 'up close' - you have to retract your focus and get some distance between you and the music...

In the http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49745 - personality test thread it is evident that a significant majority of us are in the IN-- category (Introvert & Intuitive) - the key there is not the Introversion, which I think is possibly more indicative of the type of people who frequent forums, but the Intuitiveness that says we instinctively ‘get’ abstraction, so unconsciously relate what we are listening to above it’s entertainment value; so some have that innate ability to hear something dissonant and arrhythmic and associate it in context and therefore not dismiss it as unmusical while others can carry a melody from one section of a multi-part epic into another and recognise the variances (again often at a subconscious level) as being more than just simple repetition.

I agree with you that context is essential - I am always saying 'music is a pattern', but it never stops being true; if you don't know what the pattern is, it seems like an incoherent muddle. But I think that you can acquire familiarity, through repeated listening, which gives you context... Of course, the willingness to devote some time and attention to that is required first! Tongue

(Of course if this IN-- personality trait was a generalised prerequisite to liking Progressive Rock then only 11% of the population stands any chance of ever liking it

).

Don't depress me! Cry

I am not like Garbo; I don't want to be alone. LOL

Another vote for it being that way round... I guess it could be either, really. I know that I've always liked singing and making things up (embarrassing recordings from when I was 2 bear this out! Embarrassed

), and I first had piano lessons when I was 5. I still can't really play the piano or read music, but that doesn't stop me having a go... LOL

(to put things into perspective, I'm currently listening to a Enya tribute album

)

No comment!! LOL

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 18 2008 at 13:59

James wrote:

A wonderful blog, Melissa. One I also cannot help but think I had some part in... i.e. your thoughts held over from out chat in the wee hours of the morning. Wink

Thank you James! Big%20smile

As for giving you credit for my wordsplurge... well, given that much of that conversation focused on the meaning of 'err...' and 'hmm...', I'm not entirely sure... Wink

Haha, no, you must have helped a bit, because I'm not sure how I managed to write all that yesterday. It's not normal to become more verbose and convoluted when one is mentally fatigued. LOL

(Who knows whether I 'get' it the other way...)

Like Dean, I feel "my prog passion" comes from an innate ability to listen to technical music.

Not all musicians like prog, some even hate it. Some may be saying this to rebel against and appear "cool" and some may genuinely have a dislike for (to their mind) "pretentious" music played by musicians with over-inflated egos.

Oh sure, I sort of meant 'any kind of music that goes beyond the merely palatable/obvious', rather than just prog. Smile

The attitude part of music, oh yes, that can affect people's willingness to let themselves like something... (Personally, I find the 'ego' part rather sweet. I love big musical personalities. Big%20smile

)

I personally like a wide variance of music and I am always seeking something new and unique. I tend to do this with other aspects of life too. I like to discover a really good piece of original prose, for example.

<narcissism> Well, pal, you just found yourself one! Approve

</narcissism> (Haha, I wish!! Wink

)

However, relating to the "abstract" comments, I personally dislike most modern abstract art and just cannot see anything good in some random (again, they're not random to others) painted wavy/straight lines on a canvas. However, I put this down to not having a vivid enough imagination and not particularly having an interest in art.

Yeah, those 'Dulux swatch' type paintings are a bit 'meh'... But give me a good old fashioned Surrealist object any day! Tongue

Music is different though. Art in Music, especially abstract art in music, usually "clicks" for me. However, some musical artforms, such as Noise and also the music of composers, such as Iancu Dumitrescu, leave me scratching my head. Music needs to have a bit of progression, as well as a bit of a melody (not much of one though). Ambient music usually bores me to tears and I always seek something heavier or more avant-garde. In fact, my disdain for ambient music goes so far, even a Reiki CD irritates me (it's supposed to be calming LOL

) and so I try to get something familiar that I enjoy, stuck in my head to counteract it.

When my mum goes for a facial she always asks them to 'turn off the whale music'. Tongue

Re. 'ambient v avant' - there certainly seems to be something about 'incident' in music. I'm probably similar to you, I don't like it when *nothing happens* except a bit of texture... But when 57 different things are going on all at once, great! I'm a bit scared to investigate 'Noise'. Something tells me it might sound like the description... Confused

Dean makes a good point about the IN-- Myers-Briggs Personality Types too. I do think that Introvertness does have a key part to do with it though. Those of us who are less active in socialdom tend to do more constructive things with our time, or we read and/or listen to music. The latter two can often be attributed to intellect (but not specifically, of course) as well. Does Intellect (which I feel is immeasurable) and Introvertness correlate? Maybe.

Hahahahahahaha!! LOL

Something constructive, like posting on this forum...?

I'm not sure I agree (being serious now!) - plenty of introverts are not imaginative thinkers (it probably depends on the other personality aspects). Of course, the ones who are can spend a lot of time just musin' and ponderin'. Therein lies a whole heap of brilliant (??) ideas, thoughts and wisdom... well, maybe... LOL

I also feel Introvertness is mapped out at a young age. Perhaps it's genetic, perhaps it's more linked into how one subconsciously initially perceives the world as a baby. Those who are introspective may therefore have deeper emotional feelings and seek out music for emotions, rather than technical abilities.

Re: emotions etc: Again I think that depends on the type of introvert. Really, you are sounding very INFP in this response... LOL

People listen to different music for many different reasons. As somebody else said, someone can maybe dance to Dancing Queen because of its beat, melody and general happy feel it brings them but others of us can dance to something dissonant and repetitive, because it uplifts us in another way.

What uplifts me is *enjoyable confusion*, I think. I get this really wonderful feeling when contradictory stuff is happening. Big%20smile

Extroverted people (I would say...) are likely too busy with their lives to fully immerse themselves in technical music. They are probably more likely to just want to socialise and listen to the odd tune when they have the time. That is obviously not always the case though.

Maybe the musical extroverts are the flamboyant violinists and pianists of this world. Tongue

Performers, rather than composers.

It is a fascinating subject and one I shall have to think more about when I'm not thinking of my rumbling stomach.

Well done, M. Clap

That is certainly one finely crafted and well thought out blog.

Thank you James! Embarrassed

EDIT: I have not read over what I have just written, so it may make no sense whatsoever!

Well, it looks fine to me. Hmm, if you kept regular hours and ate normally you might be invincible. LOL

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 18 2008 at 19:02

song_of_copper wrote:

Dean wrote:

I don't believe you can educate people to appreciate music beyond a certain level – the ‘height’ of this barrier varies from person to person, but is intrinsic and immovable. In other words, people are born with a natural potential and through learning can achieve that potential, but cannot reach beyond it. Of course, this ability is not one-dimensional or simply defined; it is complex and has many facets, which is why some can listen to repetitive drone and detect the subtleties while some can listen to technical-flash and admire the virtuosity and some can do both while others can manage neither. So even if you learn how to listen, the ability to do it was always there, to quote Doris Lessing: “That is what learning is. You suddenly understand something you've understood all your life, but in a new way.”

That is a superb quote. Go Doris! LOL

There is another apt literary-related quote, which I can only half remember, and I haven't a clue who by, (maybe Iris Murdoch... she usually has a quote for every occasion

), that goes something along the lines of "I've been a reader for all my life and a writer for only a small part of it". I would imagine most musicians would say something similar.

I think there is a limit to each and every 'artistic ability', not just music - in the world of art the skill to produce a painting has a limit and the ability to appreciate a painting also has limit. Taking James's example of abstract art, anyone can create art that looks abstract (canvas+paint+random motive), but it takes an artist to create art that is abstract art (canvas+paint+controlled motive). The 'skill' in the viewer (aside from appreciating both paintings as pure decoration) is to tell the two apart, to be able to view the later and 'get' the emotional response, to understand the context from which it was abstracted and thus discover the controlling factors in the motive force that produced it. Because many people don't understand (or like) abstract art even when it is explained tends to indicate that it is an innate ability gifted to some and not others and is not one that can be taught.

That does of course imply that appreciation of any art form is also an artistic ability in it's own right, which is pretty much what we are alluding to here. Whether that is measurable or can be assigned a quotient is another matter, or even if we could, whether it as any real worth or meaning.

I like what you say about people's preferences. I'm wondering whether there's something in that about detail v the 'bigger picture'. Each kind of music has a sense of scale to it, I find - some things repay close attention (like maybe the drone stuff you mention, where you could miss all kinds of nuances if you weren't really listening), whilst others are too fiddly and pointillistic to make any sense 'up close' - you have to retract your focus and get some distance between you and the music...
I deliberately chose musical styles that were diametrically opposite, so it would make sense that the means to appreciate them would also be opposites.

-------------
What?

Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 15:38

Alucard wrote:

Your post got me thinking. especially what you said about "primitive" dance music.

I think that mabe the reason I like prog is because there was NO music in my home growing up other than my mom playing piano or my father on trumpet. The first time I can remember hearing recorded music was when I was five and my dad was getting real heavy into Ray Charles and Nat King Kole.

I think mabe I never got hooked into the pop song format because growing up I only listened to jazz trumpet and classical piano, and never listened to the radio. Making me more openminded than I otherwise might have been openminded.

P.S. Extremmelly good topic. Thanks

-------------
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 12:54

Dean wrote:

There is another apt literary-related quote, which I can only half remember, and I haven't a clue who by, (maybe Iris Murdoch... she usually has a quote for every occasion

), that goes something along the lines of "I've been a reader for all my life and a writer for only a small part of it". I would imagine most musicians would say something similar.

Another interesting one! Now I'm wondering about the age-old 'chicken and egg'... Tongue

Which really comes first? In order to understand what you're reading, you have to be able to make 'mental analogues'... I think people 'tell themselves stories' in this way all the time, otherwise how would you understand anything...? But of course, to get the hang of expressing that in language (or music, or a picture...) you have to know what that looks/sounds like... aargh, don't get me going on this train of thought, I'll never get off it again...! Confused

I would hazard a guess that both creativity and ability to interpret creativity rely on making connections between things that are not necessarily linked in a baldly factual way (in fact, I'm sure I've read something like that somewhere...). An example of that would be wordplay, I suppose, or visual puns, or being able to pick out the buried structure in a chaotic piece of music. Sensing subtleties. I'm sure you're right that each person has an innate level of competence in that area. Much of that might be hidden away behind modesty or reluctance to appear pretentious, though, in a lot of people.

). But you're probably right, it would mostly be 'just a thing you can say about yourself', not very widely useful...

Of course Pop music is based upon simple repetitive patterns that require little or no effort to recognise and assimulate - it is pure representaional art with zero abstraction. In Prog the complexity of pattern increases and the degree of abstraction also increases, though not necessarily at the same time.

Sometimes I think it's more a matter of style than substance - not so much music that's more complex, just different-sounding; and people are put off by the 'cultural baggage' rather than the musical content... Wink

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 13:25

James wrote:

I've also been hearing drums and basses a lot more recently too. It's strange how something you think you're familiar with, sounds completely different when you start listening out for different instruments. I listen to a lot of jazz fusion, especially Elton Dean and Soft Machine. The latter has the very dominant sound of John Marshall's drumming and it really helps me pick out drumming on other tunes. There's an Opeth song called "The Drapery Falls" and towards the middle/early end there is a guitar section that is really really catchy. However, if you listen more closely, it's actually the drums that are dominant but you hear the guitar first.

A clever arrangement makes all the difference, yes? I think it's much harder (or more impressive) to be able to write an arrangement than to write the basics of a song (tune and words). It certainly gives you more to listen to/discover afresh. Smile

Brief tangent: In straightforward pop/rock there's this annoying stereotype of the drummer being a lovable idiot, 'the dummy who keeps the beat', hardly a musician at all... like a neanderthal with a bit of wood or whatever... and the bass player is the guy who is either not good enough or just too shy and dull to take lead guitar... I like it when those cliches get rearranged. Tongue

I was brought up on blues, so I really like soulful guitar solos but I am still getting accustomed to the style of jazz fusion guitarists, like Allan Holdsworth. He's all about speed and tapping, mostly and it just feels a lot less soulful to me.

What you say about soul is very interesting... that indefinable, faintly hormonal something that some music has, and some just... well... doesn't. I think this may be why I can't seem to like opera. It's just not... funky. Wink

Larks' Tongues in Aspic is a good album to really focus on drums and percussion. Wink

I'll bear that in mind! Tongue

This phenomenon also works against us. We search for more and more avant-garde or experimental pieces and end up disappointed. I have been there. It means I had to step back from listening to music for a short while. Now I try to focus more on the classic albums (I mean, classic albums to me, not classic albums to everyone else!) and occasionally venture into new territory.

Disappointment on that front normally comes with stuff that is 'avant garde for the sake of being avant garde', in my experience. There needs to be some kind of instinctiveness of some sort, I suppose, rather than instances of "Hmmm, this is going to sound really weird. Man, am I ever hep!" from people wearing black polo neck sweaters. Wink

I think my favourite music is the stuff that sounds the way it sounds, simply because the thought of playing music that didn't sound like that would never even have occurred to the people who made it. (Hm, that's a rather convoluted sentence... hope it makes sense!!) Big%20smile

Posted By: Kestrel
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 01:50

I was working on a blog post related to this subject a few weeks ago but postponed finishing it because I wanted a little more information from a friend. What it was was a comparison between a friend and I and how that reflects our taste in music. the gist of it was that since I have lots of free time, I can take the time to lsiten to an album and reflect on it and read about it. She, on the other hand, is a very busy person who I think views music as something to get her moving, singing and dancing to give her a break from all the work. She doesn't have the time to listen to "heavy stuff" like Supper's Ready or a Plague of Lighthouse Keepers and the like.

Of course, this doesn't explain everything, but I believe it's a significant factor.

Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 03:48

There are just too many excellent thoughts floating around in this thread, and I must admit, I feel I need to re-read the main post in order to get a bit more out of it - it's kinda like a piece of music you need to hear a few times before you properly "get" it

So I'll dive in by picking on the first post that jumps out with something I want to respond to;

Dean wrote:

Another excellent blogette Miss M.

I do not believe this to be true.

I think that we all have an infinite capacity for everything, it's just that some take longer than others.

I'm a big fan of "Jonathan Livingston Seagull".

Dean wrote:

Of course, this ability is not one-dimensional or simply defined; it is complex and has many facets, which is why some can listen to repetitive drone and detect the subtleties while some can listen to technical-flash and admire the virtuosity and some can do both while others can manage neither. So even if you learn how to listen, the ability to do it was always there, to quote Doris Lessing: “That is what learning is. You suddenly understand something you've understood all your life, but in a new way.”

That's a good quote - I often feel like that when I listen to, write or play music, read a book, attend an interesting lecture, play with my 4 year-old child... er... anything, really. Not always, just often.

I suppose that would explain my reactions above.

Dean wrote:

After many years of study, I'm not sure what's conscious and what's subconscious - and it really doesn't matter. I think that when you learn consciously, you absorb unconsiously, so learning selectively is important - you need to focus on what you're interested in, and if what you're interested in includes highly dissonant music, then it becomes easier to appreciate. If you only like a "good tune", then you probably won't like Schoenberg or Stockhausen.

When I first encountered those latter composers, I felt a brick wall of resistance go up - how could anyone consider THAT music? I didn't think I could ever like a piece like "Pierrot Lunaire".

Having studied it, I now feel like I can appreciate it better - and can certainly distinguish between pieces I like and dislike in music that is extremely dissonant - my wife asks how on earth I can even tell the difference between some of the pieces, as it all sounds like noise to her - and that's the key really. I've learned how to appreciate it not because I like it, but because it interests me.

...and as a result, I've come to really like some of it.

Dean wrote:

(Of course if this IN-- personality trait was a generalised prerequisite to liking Progressive Rock then only 11% of the population stands any chance of ever liking it

We are ALL capable of making music and carrying a tune; http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080612112628.htm - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080612112628.htm

http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/080627-carrying-tune.html - http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/080627-carrying-tune.html

I'd suspect that we're all similarly capable of analysis and composition - we all do musical analysis whenever we hear a piece, even if it's "I like this", or "The singer sounds lousy", or "This sounds like Rap to me, not Rock".

Analysis gets really groovy when you start getting into why you hold those opinions, but frequently begins with an opinion. Real analysis begins with a question.

Formal musical education is great, if that's what you want, and there's no doubt in my mind that it significantly enhances musical appreciation. I can't prove that of course, and to anyone that doesn't share the same education as me, it's hard to demonstrate exactly what I get out of it that they don't, or how it could be in any way "more" or enhanced - but, as a performer and composer from a very early age (I started playing at 4 and writing at 6), I certainly know that there are more things I enjoy and notice in music than most - which is jolly nice for me

Dean wrote:

(to put things into perspective, I'm currently listening to a Enya tribute album

)

...until now, I always considered you a man of taste...

-------------
The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 04:25

Kestrel wrote:

I was working on a blog post related to this subject a few weeks ago but postponed finishing it because I wanted a little more information from a friend. What it was was a comparison between a friend and I and how that reflects our taste in music. the gist of it was that since I have lots of free time, I can take the time to lsiten to an album and reflect on it and read about it. She, on the other hand, is a very busy person who I think views music as something to get her moving, singing and dancing to give her a break from all the work. She doesn't have the time to listen to "heavy stuff" like Supper's Ready or a Plague of Lighthouse Keepers and the like.

Of course, this doesn't explain everything, but I believe it's a significant factor.

That is an interesting idea, you should go ahead and write it! Smile

I wonder whether it's a case, though, of having time, or making time? I know plenty of people who are impatient with music. They don't actually like the idea of sitting down for half an hour or more to listen to a whole album, and would probably prefer to use their time some other way (whereas I like - or maybe even need! - to do that almost every day!). I guess that old chestnut of introversion v extroversion could come into play, too. I often feel I need time on my own at the end of the day, and find solitude and music together very therapeutic. There are plenty of people who would find that boring or that the time dragged, and would feel better having a lively face to face conversation or something like that.

If it is a case of the practicalities of having enough time, then yes, I have lots of free time. In my job I have an office to myself and can listen to any music I fancy while I work (previous jobs I've had were either in open plan offices, involved audio typing (i.e. wearing a headset to hear recorded dictation) or required too much concentration to have music on at the same time... now I have a job that barely requires a right hemisphere, so I can work and listen at the same time!! LOL

) [Come to think of it, I have no idea which parts of the brain are required for enjoying music, but you get what I mean... Tongue

]

I wonder also about what kind of feelings different people want from music. Some people feel a great benefit from hearing dark, heavy, mournful music, whereas that would make others feel psychically uncomfortable. Confused

If your 'feeling preference' is wanting to feel energised, cheerful, bouncy, etc., then I guess some grandiose conceptual work is probably not for you... And similarly, if you want to feel a million and one complex thoughts and emotions spiralling through your mind like a dictionary in a tornado, well... cheery chart music may not fit the bill... LOL

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 05:18

Certif1ed wrote:

Hehe, too convoluted by half, that's me! LOL

And here comes my long and unwieldy response... Embarrassed

So I'll dive in by picking on the first post that jumps out with something I want to respond to;

Dean wrote:

Another excellent blogette Miss M.

I do not believe this to be true.

I think that we all have an infinite capacity for everything, it's just that some take longer than others.

I'm a big fan of "Jonathan Livingston Seagull".

I think most of us have a larger capacity for *things in general* than we realise, or want to realise. There is an annoying 'culture of mediocrity' at work here - people denying or hiding their abilities in order not to stand out... I think that could well mask many people's skills in this area, and of course others.

I love http://skdesigns.com/internet/articles/quotes/williamson/our_deepest_fear/ - this famous quote by Marianne Williamson (except for the God parts... I'd change those bits for 'humanity', maybe...).

I don't think everyone has limitless potential, though. Some people are better than others at some things.

Dean wrote:

I suppose that would explain my reactions above.

<pseuderie> You've just reminded me of the importance of language in all of this. Human beings exist in a kind of word soup. Our world is filtered through words: things, ideas, states, situations, all get transformed from the tangible to the intangible - from their real-world state to an in-mind 'meaning with sounds attached'. How do we prove we understand something? By explaining it 'in our own words'. You might be well aware, in a non-verbal way, of some concept or other, but until you hear/read/speak it in words, it's not really... what's the word I'm looking for... defined? Packaged, in a recognisable form, separate from everything else? Something like that! Tongue

</pseuderie> (I think too much!!! Big%20smile

)

Dean wrote:

When I first encountered those latter composers, I felt a brick wall of resistance go up - how could anyone consider THAT music? I didn't think I could ever like a piece like "Pierrot Lunaire".

...and as a result, I've come to really like some of it.

This again strays near to the idea that 'you have to want to like it', with some things. Maybe with all things... There has to be some reason for you to devote your time, energy and interest to decoding something, exploring something; especially if it's a bit weird or complicated. I wonder what on earth I'd be listening to if music didn't come with 'other stuff'... because sometimes, it's the 'other stuff' that piques your curiosity, gives you the inclination to be more patient with the music than you might be otherwise (well, that's how it is for me sometimes, anyway!).

I think you've hit the nail on the head, too, re. distinguishing between the pieces you like and dislike (that happen to be fairly avant garde and dissonant!). And... when you can have some kind of judgement about whether something is 'good' or not (i.e. it succeeds in what the composer was aiming for, is a good example of its genre, features good musicianship/interpretation, or whatever), with that being quite separate from whether you personally like it - well, that's a pretty high level of listening skill. For a lot of people, it's 'good' if they like it, and 'bad' if they don't.

I could now start blithering on about subjectivity and objectivity, but I don't feel up to it right now!! Tongue

Dean wrote:

(Of course if this IN-- personality trait was a generalised prerequisite to liking Progressive Rock then only 11% of the population stands any chance of ever liking it

We are ALL capable of making music and carrying a tune; http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080612112628.htm - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080612112628.htm

http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/080627-carrying-tune.html - http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/080627-carrying-tune.html

Well, almost all! LOL

This stuff is just too fascinating. One thing I've always found weird is how, when a bunch of people sings in a group ('Happy Birthday' or something like that), often it starts off in one key and ends up in quite another... there's this weird, diffident thing going on as if everyone wants someone else to be in charge of keeping the group in tune... It's probably a confidence thing. In this country people are a bit shy about singing, I think. In some cultures, people sing all the time... It's easier to be in tune and sound good if you care a bit less about embarrassing yourself, and just let go and do it. Unless you're one of those people who doesn't realise they're out of tune, I guess... Tongue

Analysis gets really groovy when you start getting into why you hold those opinions, but frequently begins with an opinion. Real analysis begins with a question.

I absolutely agree with all these points - except possibly the 'musical education' one. My musical education almost completely destroyed my confidence around music. It almost put me off wanting to listen to anything non-straightforward. It made me feel like I was a rubbish listener, a rubbish composer, and a rubbish human being. But happily (well, I think so...) the 'real me' resurfaced once I got away from that kind of atmosphere. A good teacher can open the whole world to you, a bad teacher... let's not even go there. Ouch

Anyway, I firmly believe that anyone can be a composer (although I hate that word, it sounds too formal. I call myself a tuneslinger! Tongue

). Almost all children make up songs when they are very small, but unfortunately, most of them get told to shut up. Not me, I got listened to and encouraged by my parents, and I haven't shut up yet. LOL

I like to think of 'makin' up stuff' as being very much akin to imaginative play. Unfortunately, a lot of people avoid that sort of thing once they are grown up. They are missing out. Big%20smile

Dean wrote:

(to put things into perspective, I'm currently listening to a Enya tribute album

)

...until now, I always considered you a man of taste...

I'm going to say it again. Chacun à son goût! LOL

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 06:09

song_of_copper wrote:

So, with that preamble concluded, here's the main question of the post:

Is your super-epyck-fantastique music-listening ability an innate gift, or a skill you have learned?

I don't mean your *ability to enjoy music* in a general sense - of course that is hardwired into almost all human beings - here I'm talking about the conscious application of ears and brain to the business of deciphering something that cannot necessarily be appreciated as 'aural wallpaper'. (Forget music as background - to my mind that is like preferring chewing gum to proper food...)

Going back to those broad categories, I think many people see listening as a passive experience, and perhaps that is just what many people are used to. For many, music is just there to ameliorate silence, rather like a nice shade of paintwork enlivens your living room wall... But there is a huge difference between the almost subliminal awareness of a nice colour and the curiosity and engagement you might feel if you looked at an interesting painting. In order to wring more than the obvious visual pleasure out of the experience of looking at a painting, we need to use responses of a higher order than just recognising colours and straightforwardly figurative shapes, and it's just the same with music.

So that's the area I'm interested in with this post. Now for a rephrasing of the actual question: have you always felt able to turn your consciousness towards an onslaught of music (reasonably complex music, at that) and discern things in it, or is this something you have learned how to do?

interesting... would be lying if I said I have ever put any thought into it myself. I am not a life-long progger.. don't swear on the book of prog.. that is reserved for my passion for traditional American music. It is only one of many types of music I love. I just love the people here so I got a campsite here.

I have always been a bit of pinball ... I don't turn my consciousness towards music. .or specific types of music. My consciousness turns me... which I guess is the answer to your question. I am a sensory person.. not an intellectual one. Complex.. simple... means nothing to me. Only how the music hits me right here *points to heart*. That is why I have to love prog as a genre ... the diversity of moods, rhythms, sounds... everything. That can speak to me regardless of what kind of mood I am in.

Not sure if I missed the point of your question or not.. but I tried... having first cup of coffee and cigarette for the day. So my mind isn't up to speed yet.

Nice blog by the way.

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 12:12

micky wrote:

interesting... would be lying if I said I have ever put any thought into it myself. I am not a life-long progger.. don't swear on the book of prog.. that is reserved for my passion for traditional American music. It is only one of many types of music I love. I just love the people here so I got a campsite here.

I have always been a bit of pinball ... I don't turn my consciousness towards music. .or specific types of music. My consciousness turns me... which I guess is the answer to your question. I am a sensory person.. not an intellectual one. Complex.. simple... means nothing to me. Only how the music hits me right here *points to heart*. That is why I have to love prog as a genre ... the diversity of moods, rhythms, sounds... everything. That can speak to me regardless of what kind of mood I am in.

Not sure if I missed the point of your question or not.. but I tried... having first cup of coffee and cigarette for the day. So my mind isn't up to speed yet.

Nice blog by the way.

Thanks Micky! Smile

Your points are all excellent. The most important thing, of course, is whether you like what you're hearing or not, and nobody needs a musicological textbook to decide that! But it seems to me like you have a very open ear. Some people have a very narrow view of what constitutes music, and find it hard to 'get' anything that doesn't fall neatly within the parameters of what they're used to. The fact that you're able to appreciate a wide variety of different styles, without thinking too hard about it, probably just goes to show that you're a naturally gifted listener! Clap

My trouble is that, having had a natural, sensory response to something (for really, I don't sit there *thinking* whilst music is playing, and I can't stand music that seems 'too intellectual', it has to feel human...), I start wanting to know why I'm responding that way. Then I turn up here and ask a lot of damn fool questions. Tongue

Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 12:53

song_of_copper wrote:

Of course, this doesn't explain everything, but I believe it's a significant factor.

That is an interesting idea, you should go ahead and write it! Smile

) [Come to think of it, I have no idea which parts of the brain are required for enjoying music, but you get what I mean... Tongue

M., I will get back to you with your reply to my previous post but firstly, I shall comment on the above.

This is very interesting... I can be impatient with music. Not to the same degree as not wanting time to listen to a whole album. I never (or rarely) stop an album halfway through, I always play every single note (even if the album has a track I do not particularly care fore). However, I always feel guilty listening to music. When I listen to most music, I try to listen to it without interruptions and whilst I'm not doing anything else. This is why I get guilty, because I am one of those people who feels guilty being idle (although I am idle more often than I appreciate) and music (and television) do not feel constructive to me. i can therefore only really listen to a few albums a night (usually before I go to bed, when I'm tired). I wish I could listen to music and be able to read, or work at the same time but I find the music takes over in the end. A few classical pieces seem to work but even those take over and I start tapping my fingers and nodding my head, when I'm supposed to be doing something a little bit more constuctive.

As for the other point... this is also an interesting one. The other day I was in a great mood, I was feeling bouncy and for some odd reason, I wanted to play darker music. Not to get my mood back down but just because I knew I could listen to it and it wouldn't affect me all that much. Of course though, I can listen to darker music in almost any mood but it helps if you're happy when you do listen to it. Bouncy music often annoys me to be honest. It depends on just how uplifting it is. Pop music generally annoys me and makes me upset. LOL

I will say more later, when I'm not being disturbed.

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Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 17:51

James wrote:

M., I will get back to you with your reply to my previous post but firstly, I shall comment on the above.

Haha, I shall await that with interest... LOL

This is very interesting... I can be impatient with music. Not to the same degree as not wanting time to listen to a whole album. I never (or rarely) stop an album halfway through, I always play every single note (even if the album has a track I do not particularly care fore). However, I always feel guilty listening to music. When I listen to most music, I try to listen to it without interruptions and whilst I'm not doing anything else. This is why I get guilty, because I am one of those people who feels guilty being idle (although I am idle more often than I appreciate) and music (and television) do not feel constructive to me. i can therefore only really listen to a few albums a night (usually before I go to bed, when I'm tired). I wish I could listen to music and be able to read, or work at the same time but I find the music takes over in the end. A few classical pieces seem to work but even those take over and I start tapping my fingers and nodding my head, when I'm supposed to be doing something a little bit more constuctive.

Goodness me, music not constructive...? Heavens, man, what are you doing here?! LOL

Well, idling isn't such a crime. It can lead to interesting thoughts, if nothing else!

I know what you mean about music taking over and preventing you doing anything else. My job (and occasionally, mindless chores) is the only thing I can do whilst listening to music. But that's because my job IS a mindless chore, most of the time... Big%20smile

I think a lot of people nowadays crave MULTIFARIOUS INPUT. I do, sometimes. In the morning, I eat breakfast, read and listen to the radio (not music radio, though) at the same time... Confused

It can feel a bit... odd... concentrating on one thing at a time!

As for the other point... this is also an interesting one. The other day I was in a great mood, I was feeling bouncy and for some odd reason, I wanted to play darker music. Not to get my mood back down but just because I knew I could listen to it and it wouldn't affect me all that much. Of course though, I can listen to darker music in almost any mood but it helps if you're happy when you do listen to it. Bouncy music often annoys me to be honest. It depends on just how uplifting it is. Pop music generally annoys me and makes me upset. LOL

Hmm, that's a good point. Cheerful music can be pretty annoying if it doesn't match your mood. And dark music needn't necessarily be humourless, which might come across more clearly if you weren't feeling overly sombre.

I will say more later, when I'm not being disturbed.

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 19:37

song_of_copper wrote:

Certif1ed wrote:

Hehe, too convoluted by half, that's me! LOL

And here comes my long and unwieldy response... Embarrassed

So I'll dive in by picking on the first post that jumps out with something I want to respond to;

Dean wrote:

Another excellent blogette Miss M.

I do not believe this to be true.

I think that we all have an infinite capacity for everything, it's just that some take longer than others.

I'm a big fan of "Jonathan Livingston Seagull".

I learn something new on a regular basis and take great pleasure from that in itself, but alas there are subjects where I hit a mental wall and no amount of study will ever achieve understanding. However, however much I believe that there is a limit to learning, it is never going to stop me from trying to prove that notion wrong.

I think this is the difference between the Good and the Great - for example most guitarists I've met are good, some are great, but only a few can achieve exceptional greatness - I don't think that just anyone can be a "Hendrix" purely by learning/practice.

song_of_copper wrote:

Certif1ed wrote:

Dean wrote:

I suppose that would explain my reactions above.

</pseuderie> (I think too much!!! Big%20smile

)

Interesting idea, as an engineer I generally prove my understanding of a concept by aplication rather than re-wording - if I can use it then I've probably understood it, even if I cannot explain it.

song_of_copper wrote:

Certif1ed wrote:

Dean wrote:

When I first encountered those latter composers, I felt a brick wall of resistance go up - how could anyone consider THAT music? I didn't think I could ever like a piece like "Pierrot Lunaire".

Isn't this curiocity or quest for musical knowledge an innate ability in itself? Not everyone wants to explore Advant Garde music, not everyone cares enought about music to want to know what makes it music, what drove the composer to create those dissonant sounds (*meh* not all abstract music is dissonant). There must be something in the make-up of some people that makes abstract music accessible to them (even if they don't actually like it) that is not present in others.

song_of_copper wrote:

Certif1ed wrote:

Dean wrote:

(Of course if this IN-- personality trait was a generalised prerequisite to liking Progressive Rock then only 11% of the population stands any chance of ever liking it

We are ALL capable of making music and carrying a tune; http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080612112628.htm - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080612112628.htm

http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/080627-carrying-tune.html - http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/080627-carrying-tune.html

Well, almost all! LOL

A friend of mine's father is the director of the local youth choir and he contends that anyone can be taught to sing... if that were true then we wouldn't need auto-tune. But as that article points out: "While some tone-challenged people may benefit from training, Dalla Bella doubts that they can all learn to carry a tune".

song_of_copper wrote:

Certif1ed wrote:

Analysis gets really groovy when you start getting into why you hold those opinions, but frequently begins with an opinion. Real analysis begins with a question.

Anyway, I firmly believe that anyone can be a composer (although I hate that word, it sounds too formal. I call myself a tuneslinger! Tongue

I like to think of 'makin' up stuff' as being very much akin to imaginative play. Unfortunately, a lot of people avoid that sort of thing once they are grown up. They are missing out. Big%20smile

I also believe that anyone can compose music - producing a basic melody is too stupidly simple for it to be otherwise - but elevating that to the level of a symphony is something else.

I use to be wary of the "composer" tag too, but now it doesn't bother me... the music I create is composed, it has structure and form, ergo, I compose. (I use to call my compositions "constructions" because that is essentially the process I use, but that sounded even more pretentious

)

song_of_copper wrote:

Certif1ed wrote:

Dean wrote:

(to put things into perspective, I'm currently listening to a Enya tribute album

)

...until now, I always considered you a man of taste...

I'm going to say it again. Chacun à son goût! LOL

tsk! listening to someone singing in a made-up language, whatever next.

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What?

Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: July 23 2008 at 23:19

Excellent blog Melissa and especially not bad for a sleep deprived soul to have written something this good.
"Is your super-epyck-fantastique music-listening ability an innate gift, or a skill you have learned?"

I guess , like Rob, for me it was probably a bit of both. At first (as a young child up until my mid teens reallyI really couldn't understand and appreciate any complex music really, but nor could I stand listening to whatever was deemed chart topping stuff.
As James noted, a lot of musicians don't even like prog, and I know many people who are in fact quite skilled on their instrument that don't like prog, or will appreciate the band if it has a connection to what they Excellent blog Melissa and especially not bad for a sleep deprived soul to have written something this good.
"Is your super-epyck-fantastique music-listening ability an innate gift, or a skill you have learned?"

I guess , like Rob, for me it was probably a bit of both. At first (as a young child up until my mid teens reallyI really couldn't understand and appreciate any complex music really, but nor could I stand listening to whatever was deemed chart topping stuff.
As James noted, a lot of musicians don't even like prog, and I know many people who are in fact quite skilled on their instrument that don't like prog, or will appreciate the band if it has a connection to what they listen to normally, by what I mean say for eg. a metalcore listener might like Protest The Hero which is a Tech/Extreme Prog metal band listed in the archives, but those people might only like it because of the hardcore/metalcore asthetic and have no appreciation for the progressive side.

1. I am indeed a musician. I am completely self taught though, although I don't think that makes me any less than someone with formal training.
I can sight read to a small degree, I can compose small neo-baroque/classical style pieces for electric guitar, have a very good understanding and have spent much time studying the relationship between scales/modes/arpeggios/chords (I know a lot of classically trained musicians who are several grades into their theory that don't know as much about me on the subject), can even negotiate jazz chord progressions, can transcribe entire songs by ear and have pretty good relative pitch ability. I'm currently aiming to become a virtuoso electric guitarists in the next few years and hopefully become a full time music teacher too.

I was brought up on blues, so I really like soulful guitar solos but I am still getting accustomed to the style of jazz fusion guitarists, like Allan Holdsworth. He's all about speed and tapping, mostly and it just feels a lot less soulful to me

^That was obviously a quote from James. What is "soulful" "Emotive" etc etc is obviously completely subjective. I too listened to a lot of blues back in the day and even now that listening experience has influenced my guitar playing, but I'll be honest in that a lot of a blues solos are just, dull and unexciting for me.
Allan Holdsworth is indeed, a noted Jazz Fusion virtuoso guitarists and a hero of mine, with his astounding legato technique (sorry James, Holdsworth didn't actually use much tapping throughout his career at allWinkTongue) and smooth, flowing soloing style. An no, he isn't all about speed, as their is a lot of slow melodies in his playing too, but due to chromatic passing tones sometimes these melodic lines don't sound overly melodic to musically untrained ears. James's knowledge of musical concepts, theory, level of aural ability etc is obviously not up to par with mine and as I've noted before a lot of non musicians can find this virtuoso type playing cold and sterlie, while to some musicians (such as myself) it's incredibly compelling and emotive to listen to.
To my ears, Allan Holdsworth's solos are incredibly moving and to me the astounding technique he possesses is merely just a tool for self expression and isn't about speed for speeds sake.
And indeed, for me this was part of the "learn to listen" (learning music theory, learning to play guitar) process for me

2. I like a lot of different prog styles/genres, from the quirky Canterbury style of Soft Machine, crushing heavy Tech/Extreme Prog metal bands, Symphonic, Avante Garde Prog (James ,I've been to busy lately to get some RIO stuff, I promise I'll get some alright, Mother is home, so I'll see about some UZ stuff, so don't blast me!Tongue) Post Rock/Metal/Math Rock/Experimental Metal etc etc.
As a musician, I can appreciate music from extremely melodic, to music which is atonal/dissonant (Considering I enjoy Arnold Schoenberg's 12 tone serialism works, I think can handle a little..... okay a lot of atonality/dissonance), but I guess lately I've been listening to a lot of stuff which is really a balance between the two, just depends on how I feel or whatever the week is like really.

2b. Am I a rebel? I guess throughout the years I've been told my taste in music sucks, that I should play a different style on guitar, but I stuck to my own guns and it was well worth it in the end, since it's helped me to come closer to finding out who I am, although now I share a common taste with some friends who are into heavier prog styles, although that's a minority of my friend's really (I think that answered itConfused, wasn't

3. I like both complex and simple music , but the beauty in prog is, the seemingly simple stuff is still more complex than some might believe, so I guess I meant more the "simple but yet somewhat complex" music rather than just straight out as simple like a pop song or something like that.
I like Post Rock/Metal, so nope, ambient stuff doesn't bore me at all, in response to I can't remember who it was that said ambient stuff bored them somewhat.

I'll probably add more to this discussion later when I can think up some more stuff Thumbs%20Up

Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 24 2008 at 23:48

OMG OMG i have so much to say and add to this discussion, but i need a little time to gather my thoughts. i will say this though

i can like a song with no odd times, no key changes, no crazy instrumental section or anything really complex AS LONG as the song is good, and has lasting appeal. These are not necessary things to have in order to have a good, interesting song, (i do like and prefer them) but not necessary.

I'll add more later, probably in a few hours...

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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 25 2008 at 06:25

HughesJB4 wrote:

Excellent blog Melissa and especially not bad for a sleep deprived soul to have written something this good.
"Is your super-epyck-fantastique music-listening ability an innate gift, or a skill you have learned?"

I guess , like Rob, for me it was probably a bit of both. At first (as a young child up until my mid teens reallyI really couldn't understand and appreciate any complex music really, but nor could I stand listening to whatever was deemed chart topping stuff.
As James noted, a lot of musicians don't even like prog, and I know many people who are in fact quite skilled on their instrument that don't like prog, or will appreciate the band if it has a connection to what they listen to normally, by what I mean say for eg. a metalcore listener might like Protest The Hero which is a Tech/Extreme Prog metal band listed in the archives, but those people might only like it because of the hardcore/metalcore asthetic and have no appreciation for the progressive side.

Yes, personal taste is a big factor. I didn’t intend for this to be about prog alone – more like any music that’s reasonably sophisticated compared to generic chart fodder. That could include… well, almost anything!
I’m sure you are right about what elements people prefer to concentrate on in music – the bits that seem familiar or make a link of some sort with what they already know. At least, at first. It’s interesting coming across all these very mixed subgenres – a bit of this, a bit of that, a bit of the other… I wonder how possible it is to unpick all of that and decide which is the metalcore component and which is the progressive component (probably easier for someone with good music theory knowledge… I’m completely hopeless at that stuff!). Or is it a case of ‘progressive structure’ dressed up in metalcore timbres… Ermm

1. I am indeed a musician. I am completely self taught though, although I don't think that makes me any less than someone with formal training.

Well, I’d say that’s pretty amazing, being able to teach yourself those things. Most of us can’t even teach ourselves to tie our own shoelaces. LOL

I can sight read to a small degree, I can compose small neo-baroque/classical style pieces for electric guitar, have a very good understanding and have spent much time studying the relationship between scales/modes/arpeggios/chords (I know a lot of classically trained musicians who are several grades into their theory that don't know as much about me on the subject), can even negotiate jazz chord progressions, can transcribe entire songs by ear and have pretty good relative pitch ability. I'm currently aiming to become a virtuoso electric guitarists in the next few years and hopefully become a full time music teacher too.

Neo-baroque/classical style pieces for electric guitar… that sounds very cool. Personally, I’m useless at the technical side of music, and have absolutely zero natural aptitude for it (other than having a pretty good ear, but then I’m a singer… that’s kind of compulsory!). So… I’m well impressed! Good for you! Thumbs%20Up

And it’s great that you want to be a music teacher, as well as a virtuoso. Far too many people have the desire to be lauded for their talent, without thinking that it might be good also to help other people discover their particular talent. Clap

I was brought up on blues, so I really like soulful guitar solos but I am still getting accustomed to the style of jazz fusion guitarists, like Allan Holdsworth. He's all about speed and tapping, mostly and it just feels a lot less soulful to me

^That was obviously a quote from James. What is "soulful" "Emotive" etc etc is obviously completely subjective. I too listened to a lot of blues back in the day and even now that listening experience has influenced my guitar playing, but I'll be honest in that a lot of a blues solos are just, dull and unexciting for me.

I suppose some people really are just sticking to the basic pattern with that stuff, which probably would be pretty dull to someone who knows a lot about guitar playing, and music generally.

Allan Holdsworth is indeed, a noted Jazz Fusion virtuoso guitarists and a hero of mine, with his astounding legato technique (sorry James, Holdsworth didn't actually use much tapping throughout his career at allWinkTongue) and smooth, flowing soloing style. An no, he isn't all about speed, as their is a lot of slow melodies in his playing too, but due to chromatic passing tones sometimes these melodic lines don't sound overly melodic to musically untrained ears. James's knowledge of musical concepts, theory, level of aural ability etc is obviously not up to par with mine and as I've noted before a lot of non musicians can find this virtuoso type playing cold and sterlie, while to some musicians (such as myself) it's incredibly compelling and emotive to listen to.

This is exactly what I’m getting at. To a lot of people, that kind of thing might sound like an onslaught of musical data that their brain has no idea what to do with. But someone with either enough knowledge or enough innate understanding of these things can hear all kinds of nuances that the average listener might miss.

To my ears, Allan Holdsworth's solos are incredibly moving and to me the astounding technique he possesses is merely just a tool for self expression and isn't about speed for speeds sake.
And indeed, for me this was part of the "learn to listen" (learning music theory, learning to play guitar) process for me

Whether or not someone starts out with the skill to understand this sort of thing, I think maybe the curiosity to go out and learn about it is the thing that’s hardwired. No-one can make you learn anything – even if you’re not teaching yourself, you have to give admittance to the information that’s being handed to you. And of course all the theory is meaningless until you hear it in action.

2. I like a lot of different prog styles/genres, from the quirky Canterbury style of Soft Machine, crushing heavy Tech/Extreme Prog metal bands, Symphonic, Avante Garde Prog (James ,I've been to busy lately to get some RIO stuff, I promise I'll get some alright, Mother is home, so I'll see about some UZ stuff, so don't blast me!Tongue) Post Rock/Metal/Math Rock/Experimental Metal etc etc.
As a musician, I can appreciate music from extremely melodic, to music which is atonal/dissonant (Considering I enjoy Arnold Schoenberg's 12 tone serialism works, I think can handle a little..... okay a lot of atonality/dissonance), but I guess lately I've been listening to a lot of stuff which is really a balance between the two, just depends on how I feel or whatever the week is like really.

I think it was ill-advised exposure to Schoenberg that did for me when I was 17 and had a music teacher who liked to show off (every week, he’d force me to hear something even more brutal and unfamiliar!). I’m still yet to explore all those serious modern composers. You have my admiration. Wink

2b. Am I a rebel? I guess throughout the years I've been told my taste in music sucks, that I should play a different style on guitar, but I stuck to my own guns and it was well worth it in the end, since it's helped me to come closer to finding out who I am, although now I share a common taste with some friends who are into heavier prog styles, although that's a minority of my friend's really (I think that answered itConfused, wasn't

Anyone who tells you that you should sound like anyone other than yourself is… well… wrong. That’s all. You seem to have very wide and varied tastes, so there can’t be many people with whom you have no taste in common at all.

3. I like both complex and simple music , but the beauty in prog is, the seemingly simple stuff is still more complex than some might believe, so I guess I meant more the "simple but yet somewhat complex" music rather than just straight out as simple like a pop song or something like that.

“Simple yet somewhat complex” – this is what I’ve been trying to put my finger on with the music I like best. I don’t know whether it’s just because a really good composer/musician can make something that’s fairly complex sound very elegant and uncluttered (and in that way, seem simple – or ‘simply presented’, perhaps), or whether it’s one of those things where the elements that are left out, or implied, become as significant as the elements that are emphasised, or whether it’s simply that I am dumb and don’t understand music theory… Embarrassed

but yeah. ‘Simple and complicated at the same time’ is a good description of some of my favourite music. If you can think of a better way to say that… let me know! Tongue

I like Post Rock/Metal, so nope, ambient stuff doesn't bore me at all, in response to I can't remember who it was that said ambient stuff bored them somewhat.
I'll probably add more to this discussion later when I can think up some more stuff Thumbs%20Up

Thanks for your input, and I’m sorry for the delayed response to it… Smile

Posted By: Alucard
Date Posted: July 25 2008 at 06:49

just a short one on "in and outs" :

one of my worst memories was seeing Kubrick's 'Space Odysee' utterly stoned (I had already seen the film dry) and also the beginning of the film was kind of groovy, when the monolith scene started, I began to see the decorum, the actors disguised as apes and I just couldn't switch back to let's say normal, emotional reception and was kind of bound by the 'technical' side of the film, which spoiled my pleasure extremely, also I learned quite a bit about making movies....fortunately that never happened to me with music....I normally receive both informations as a mixed package and unless I analyze sheetmusic I would never be thrilled only by the pure technical side if it doesn't touch me on a gut level...

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Tadpoles keep screaming in my ear
"Hey there! Rotter's Club!
Explain the meaning of this song and share it"

Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: July 25 2008 at 06:59

)

song_of_copper wrote:

HughesJB4 wrote:

Excellent blog Melissa and especially not bad for a sleep deprived soul to have written something this good.
"Is your super-epyck-fantastique music-listening ability an innate gift, or a skill you have learned?"

I guess , like Rob, for me it was probably a bit of both. At first (as a young child up until my mid teens reallyI really couldn't understand and appreciate any complex music really, but nor could I stand listening to whatever was deemed chart topping stuff.
As James noted, a lot of musicians don't even like prog, and I know many people who are in fact quite skilled on their instrument that don't like prog, or will appreciate the band if it has a connection to what they listen to normally, by what I mean say for eg. a metalcore listener might like Protest The Hero which is a Tech/Extreme Prog metal band listed in the archives, but those people might only like it because of the hardcore/metalcore aesthetic and have no appreciation for the progressive side.

Yes, personal taste is a big factor. I didn’t intend for this to be about prog alone – more like any music that’s reasonably sophisticated compared to generic chart fodder. That could include… well, almost anything!
I’m sure you are right about what elements people prefer to concentrate on in music – the bits that seem familiar or make a link of some sort with what they already know. At least, at first. It’s interesting coming across all these very mixed subgenres – a bit of this, a bit of that, a bit of the other… I wonder how possible it is to unpick all of that and decide which is the metalcore component and which is the progressive component (probably easier for someone with good music theory knowledge… I’m completely hopeless at that stuff!). Or is it a case of ‘progressive structure’ dressed up in metalcore timbres… Ermm

Pretty much agreed there.

1. I am indeed a musician. I am completely self taught though, although I don't think that makes me any less than someone with formal training.

Well, I’d say that’s pretty amazing, being able to teach yourself those things. Most of us can’t even teach ourselves to tie our own shoelaces. LOL

Well, I mainly watched a lot of just videos of virtuoso guitarists, and after a short while it occurred to me how those guys eventually got to their level of technique, so in 2005, I completely re learnt how to play guitar and focused on a lot of just scale exercises etc, until my fret hand technique became correct, more in line with classical guitar fretting hand technique I guess.

I can sight read to a small degree, I can compose small neo-baroque/classical style pieces for electric guitar, have a very good understanding and have spent much time studying the relationship between scales/modes/arpeggios/chords (I know a lot of classically trained musicians who are several grades into their theory that don't know as much about me on the subject), can even negotiate jazz chord progressions, can transcribe entire songs by ear and have pretty good relative pitch ability. I'm currently aiming to become a virtuoso electric guitarists in the next few years and hopefully become a full time music teacher too.

Neo-baroque/classical style pieces for electric guitar… that sounds very cool. Personally, I’m useless at the technical side of music, and have absolutely zero natural aptitude for it (other than having a pretty good ear, but then I’m a singer… that’s kind of compulsory!). So… I’m well impressed! Good for you! Thumbs%20Up

Well, I guess for where I want to go with my playing, learning the guitar linguo and theory is very much necessary.
I have given free guitar lessons in the past, with good results actually, I've had a friend who went from playing simple metal tunes, just simply rhythm guitar, and now has good technical command of the instrument and has a reasonable understanding of theory, and can now think in actual notes rather than his previous "this fret position".

I was brought up on blues, so I really like soulful guitar solos but I am still getting accustomed to the style of jazz fusion guitarists, like Allan Holdsworth. He's all about speed and tapping, mostly and it just feels a lot less soulful to me

^That was obviously a quote from James. What is "soulful" "Emotive" etc etc is obviously completely subjective. I too listened to a lot of blues back in the day and even now that listening experience has influenced my guitar playing, but I'll be honest in that a lot of a blues solos are just, dull and unexciting for me.

I suppose some people really are just sticking to the basic pattern with that stuff, which probably would be pretty dull to someone who knows a lot about guitar playing, and music generally.

Well, over time, it just got less interesting to listen.
I still love some blues, like Stevie Ray Vaughn , but then again he is known for having pretty good technical ability for a blues player, but I guess it was more the much older blues with more primitive levels of technique that bores me almost instantly now.

Allan Holdsworth is indeed, a noted Jazz Fusion virtuoso guitarists and a hero of mine, with his astounding legato technique (sorry James, Holdsworth didn't actually use much tapping throughout his career at all Wink

) and smooth, flowing soloing style. An no, he isn't all about speed, as their is a lot of slow melodies in his playing too, but due to chromatic passing tones sometimes these melodic lines don't sound overly melodic to musically untrained ears. James's knowledge of musical concepts, theory, level of aural ability etc is obviously not up to par with mine and as I've noted before a lot of non musicians can find this virtuoso type playing cold and sterlie, while to some musicians (such as myself) it's incredibly compelling and emotive to listen to.

This is exactly what I’m getting at. To a lot of people, that kind of thing might sound like an onslaught of musical data that their brain has no idea what to do with. But someone with either enough knowledge or enough innate understanding of these things can hear all kinds of nuances that the average listener might miss.

And that's exactly why I love being a musician, because it can give me a perspective non musicians can often miss out on.

To my ears, Allan Holdsworth's solos are incredibly moving and to me the astounding technique he possesses is merely just a tool for self expression and isn't about speed for speeds sake.
And indeed, for me this was part of the "learn to listen" (learning music theory, learning to play guitar) process for me

Whether or not someone starts out with the skill to understand this sort of thing, I think maybe the curiosity to go out and learn about it is the thing that’s hardwired. No-one can make you learn anything – even if you’re not teaching yourself, you have to give admittance to the information that’s being handed to you. And of course all the theory is meaningless until you hear it in action.

Well, despite never being good at school (I've failed the last year of high school twice to be honest Ouch

), I always loved learning on my own accord, so while I found it hard to get motivated to do an essay at school, to be able to sit there and just run through music theory on my own for hours and play 2-6 hours everyday has never been a problem

2. I like a lot of different prog styles/genres, from the quirky Canterbury style of Soft Machine, crushing heavy Tech/Extreme Prog metal bands, Symphonic, Avante Garde Prog (James ,I've been to busy lately to get some RIO stuff, I promise I'll get some alright, Mother is home, so I'll see about some UZ stuff, so don't blast me! Tongue

) Post Rock/Metal/Math Rock/Experimental Metal etc etc.
As a musician, I can appreciate music from extremely melodic, to music which is atonal/dissonant (Considering I enjoy Arnold Schoenberg's 12 tone serialism works, I think can handle a little..... okay a lot of atonality/dissonance), but I guess lately I've been listening to a lot of stuff which is really a balance between the two, just depends on how I feel or whatever the week is like really.

I think it was ill-advised exposure to Schoenberg that did for me when I was 17 and had a music teacher who liked to show off (every week, he’d force me to hear something even more brutal and unfamiliar!). I’m still yet to explore all those serious modern composers. You have my admiration. Wink

Hehe, I'm no walking dictionary of the more modern composers, I'll tell you that much Tongue

My favorites are probably Liszt and Chopin from the Romantic period, always beautiful and emotive music to me.

2b. Am I a rebel? I guess throughout the years I've been told my taste in music sucks, that I should play a different style on guitar, but I stuck to my own guns and it was well worth it in the end, since it's helped me to come closer to finding out who I am, although now I share a common taste with some friends who are into heavier prog styles, although that's a minority of my friend's really (I think that answered itConfused, wasn't

Anyone who tells you that you should sound like anyone other than yourself is… well… wrong. That’s all. You seem to have very wide and varied tastes, so there can’t be many people with whom you have no taste in common at all.

And that's something I've preached to people too, to pursue your own musical endeavors Smile

3. I like both complex and simple music , but the beauty in prog is, the seemingly simple stuff is still more complex than some might believe, so I guess I meant more the "simple but yet somewhat complex" music rather than just straight out as simple like a pop song or something like that.

“Simple yet somewhat complex” – this is what I’ve been trying to put my finger on with the music I like best. I don’t know whether it’s just because a really good composer/musician can make something that’s fairly complex sound very elegant and uncluttered (and in that way, seem simple – or ‘simply presented’, perhaps), or whether it’s one of those things where the elements that are left out, or implied, become as significant as the elements that are emphasised, or whether it’s simply that I am dumb and don’t understand music theory… Embarrassed

but yeah. ‘Simple and complicated at the same time’ is a good description of some of my favourite music. If you can think of a better way to say that… let me know! Tongue

Simplex?

No idea in this corner either, simple and complicated simultaneously is all I've got Tongue

S
I like Post Rock/Metal, so nope, ambient stuff doesn't bore me at all, in response to I can't remember who it was that said ambient stuff bored them somewhat.
I'll probably add more to this discussion later when I can think up some more stuff Thumbs%20Up

Thanks for your input, and I’m sorry for the delayed response to it… Smile

No problems.

And about the lack of emoticons showing up in words, that was because I copied and pasted what I wrote into Wordpad, and the day after when I completed my response, I pasted it back into the reply box and the emoticons obviously didn't show up as intended Embarrassed

Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 25 2008 at 11:42

Simple yet complex = Koenjihyakkei

That's a perfect example for me.

I will get back to this thread later but I'm pushed for time right now.

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Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 25 2008 at 12:39

Dean wrote:

Interesting idea, as an engineer I generally prove my understanding of a concept by aplication rather than re-wording - if I can use it then I've probably understood it, even if I cannot explain it.

Excellent point, and indicative of how utterly different two people's mental landscapes can be! I've no idea how many different 'thinking styles' there are, but maybe this is something else that has an impact on how different people approach their musical understanding... Some people will understand by doing (esp. those who pick up a guitar or whatever and have go themselves), others by explaining (like Yours Truly I guess, despite the lack of proper terminology!), and others still by some other manner, I'm sure!

Dean wrote:

Isn't this curiocity or quest for musical knowledge an innate ability in itself? Not everyone wants to explore Advant Garde music, not everyone cares enought about music to want to know what makes it music, what drove the composer to create those dissonant sounds (*meh* not all abstract music is dissonant). There must be something in the make-up of some people that makes abstract music accessible to them (even if they don't actually like it) that is not present in others.

Oh yes, I think that must be true. But curiosity can be awakened and encouraged, or ignored and dampened. I suppose everyone has curiosity, but to varying degrees. (And not necessarily about music!)

Dean wrote:

A friend of mine's father is the director of the local youth choir and he contends that anyone can be taught to sing... if that were true then we wouldn't need auto-tune.

But as that article points out: "While some tone-challenged people may benefit from training, Dalla Bella doubts that they can all learn to carry a tune".

I've heard of people who thought they were tone deaf being coaxed, via intensive training (mostly focused on listening skills, to tell whether they're hitting the right note, and physical awareness, i.e. knowing how various sounds 'feel' to produce), into being able to sing in tune, but it seems like a laborious process. Almost like re-learning a whole sense!

Dean wrote:

I also believe that anyone can compose music - producing a basic melody is too stupidly simple for it to be otherwise - but elevating that to the level of a symphony is something else.

)

Oh, yes. Making up a basic tune is indeed stupidly simple. I think most people probably do it without even realising. Maybe it takes knowing you're doing it to get a simple melody into your conscious mind so you can work it up into a song. Obviously anything very much more complex (up to and including symphonies!) would need a musical education of some sort, because otherwise you wouldn't know the capabilities of various instruments, the structure you needed to adhere to in order to call it a symphony, how to write it all down... Songs, though, are probably part of basic human communication.

I really only write songs. Sometimes they go together to form longer pieces, for which you could use a fancy word like 'suite' or 'cycle', but I think even those terms are too high-falutin' for what I do!! Embarrassed

Dean wrote:

tsk! listening to someone singing in a made-up language, whatever next.

Careful, now... do you want a bunch of aggrieved Magma freaks shouting "Wurdah!" at you?! LOL

Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 28 2008 at 17:26

I wanted to think about this a bit before I crafted a response, but here's the bottom line answer:

I learned it from my father. What did I learn?

I learned that music was something one could take the time to sit down and appreciate, because that's exactly what he did: he was (still is, always has been) an audiophile, so after researching and getting fantastic components, speakers, etc. you obviously want to sit down and enjoy your "investment"...but I still learned from him to isolate the various instruments and hear what the musicians were doing, appreciate a clever turn of phrase in the lyrics of a song, or (as I got older and he got more into classical music) a bit more complex ideas such as variations on a theme. Funny thing is, not a single minute of all the music he played and I heard growing up was what we quasi-identify as "progressive rock" or "prog". My particular taste for that type of music I can only describe as innate (when I first heard Fragile by Yes at the age of about 11 or 12 there was an instant appreciation and "click", that elevated the music above all else I had experienced to date), I had to discover that type of music largely on my own and I knew almost nobody else that liked it.

So for me it was the role model of my Dad that taught me to be a "Participant Listener", as it were, because that's exactly what he did, and it never occurred to me to be otherwise - and to be honest, I think there are degrees of this sort of characterization. "Proggers" would perhaps be on the high "participation" side of this scale (appreciation of complexity and patience for long compositions), but that's not to say that my wife and a lot of my friends can't sit and listen to music as well at their own level of "participation" - in fact, I know very few people who would probably be called "consumers", or whatever you call those for whom music is as much of a background noise as the little fan I run when I go to sleep. It's certainly next to impossible for those of us who frequent this forum to begin to conceive of living that way.

Recap: that I have some level of musical listening ability is learned; that I apply those things to progressive rock/music is just my innate passion - being drawn to this music is not something I can explain.

Of course, there's the whole topic of musical tastes changing over one's life and how previous experiences can shape the direction of one's musical journey...but that's for another blog. Wink

Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 28 2008 at 17:31

I just listen to prog for the women. What, do you guys actually like this stuff.

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http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!

Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: July 28 2008 at 19:22

May I start by saying that this is an impressive blog and has got me truly thinking like few things have in recent weeks. Clap

I guess a round of disembleing (spelling isnt one of my strong points, I think this may become apparent today LOL

) on my own history is called for which will tie in to say latter in the post and may give a better perspective of where my musical habbits come from.
<deep breath>
Before I was 16 I can honestly say that music was very much a non-entity for me, the only times I listened to it was when a good friend of mine would bring his cheap stereo round and we'ed listen to the radio whilst playing on the PlayStation (thoughs days that we stayed in, anyway). Unfortunatly, the radio station we always had on was Galaxy ( Dead

, its a wonder I wasnt turned off from music altogether). I wouldnt say I hated it at the time, just didnt pay it any attention, I was 16 when I bought my first album, Red Hot Chili Peppers By the Way. I can remember that for about the next two years after this I was mildely into the realm of the then indy scene until a mate of mine lent me Dream Theaters Images and Words, closely followed by Scenes from a Memory and Symphony X'sThe Divine Wings of Tragedy and V: The New Mythology Suite. I was, without doubt, blown away on first listening to them as it was far and away very different and on first impression obviously far more complex than anything Coldplay was doing. Since then I've been on a bit of a quest to find more and more prog to listen to to the point where I am now buying about 3-5 albums per week, many of which I havnt heard a note of and am eagely anticipating the first listen. (Unserprisingly, this really seemed to kick off when I discovered this site, as my sig would attest to. Funny that Wink

)

As to the main question, the short answer is both, but again a bit more detail on me to give a betterview of my musical habits is needed. I may be about the only persson here that will say that the PS2 and GT3/4 have been instrumental in helpping me along with my prog appreciation, and no, its not for the sound track supplied by Feeder. I have distinct memories of spending time playing this game whilst having, in particular, The Mars Volta's De- Loused in the Comatorium on (around early 2005 then). Over those few months I became increasingly aware that my ability to concentrate on the minutae of the music as well as effectively play the game was increasing to the point that I can now do other thigs whilst listning to and concentrating a fair bit, though not totally, on the music (as I write this, I am listening to Dark Suns Existence and, hopefully, making something resembaling sense here).

The point of my rambalings was to show that my ability to pick up on very different music to the norm, whether I have been exposed to something even remotly like it or not before, and like or at least appreciate is inate but my skill for detailed listening was something built up over time (and entirely by accident).

Right, as for the seperate, and very interesting, points you've made:

1a. I wouldnt go so far to call my self a musician but I do attempt to play the bass (for as long as I've been into music I've seemed to focus on the rhythm section the most, whch might in part explain why it was Chili's that were the first band I ever bought a CD of) from time to time. I picked it up, really, in an attempt to emulate my favourite bands but it has since expanded to encompass a desire to have a better understanding of what it is I'm listening to beyond "that was interesting". In this regards I'm definitely with TGM:Orb and Dean in that prog can inspire people to take up musicianship to help them understand what their heroes are playing, though I doubt this would be the first and main consideration when picking up that axe for the first time, but I'd be surprised if it didnt creep in quickly. Conversly, prog by its very nature would garner at least some proffesional interest from musicians and those that have even some small exerience of plonking a piano or picking a guitar may find it more imediatly attractive than those that dont have any musical experience.

1b. I am, without doubt, a usless singer who can not keep in tune, but I at least seem to have a half decent ear for things like this. Not sure whether thats actualy related, I think it would have more to do with how sensitive your hearing is and just how honest/ self critical you are.

2. Like you, my musical taste definitely runs to the darker side of prog far more than the lighter, nicer side (cant stand Yes, not too keen on the Flower Kings but love Van der Graaf Generator and King Crimson) but there are many, many prog listeners who are definitely the other way round. As to the general masses, I'd say that those that dont follow music as closely as most of us here do would much prefer "happier" music than something that was melencholic, doom laden or disturbing, though aggressive might be a different matter (thinks of "Gangsta rap", but not too hard). I think that in the end it comes down to two things, the way they treat music listening and the personality of the indavidual. Thats two variables but each with a massive range of atributes that will be the determaning factors here.

3. With film/TV scores I get the feeling that people either take little notice of it or they associate it directly with something that is happening on screen, but may not care too much for it if is played on its own. For my part, I tend to ignore it almost all of the time, but then I think music in films is so overused and saturated that the only way I would notice it is when its not there. Ring is one of my favourite films in part because there is so little music. In fact, the only time I hafe taken more than a passing notice of a score is in the TV series Battlestar Galactica (the new one), which uses minimalism to stunning effect, but I'm rambeling now.

What bores me is the lack of a point to what is going on in music. Simple can be intersting if done in a clever way and with a clear goal, Pink Floyd were masters of this IMO but electronic bands are the complete oposite (generalisation here, I havnt explored the electronic genre much and been given little desire to do so from what I've heard).The opposite is true of complex music, which can get lost in its own technique and forget that clinical technique isnt the only aspect of music. In general, though, I would much rather listen to complex music than simple. I'll take this furthar and say that listening to music that I find simplistic to a fault (pop, R&B, rap, a lot of indie, nu metal, "emo") is depressing for me to the point where I find it difficult to work more than 4 or 5 hours at work (where its on all the time) and not leave in a thouroghly sh*tty mood.

In the end, I think I was always more predisposed to listen to prog, and by extent jazz and classical of which I am now beginning to explore, than pop from the beginning and probably has a lot more to do with nature rather than nurture as my dad's jazz days were long past by my earliest coherent memories and music actually played a near non existent role in my life before that first CD.

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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005

Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 28 2008 at 19:26

I'm actually appreciating classical music a lot more now, than I did in the past. It is partly due to wanting to discover where the music I listen to comes from and partly because my ears are more finely tuned to that style of music, due mostly to my experience with chamber prog and klezmer.

This is one of the reasons I do not write reviews as much as I could... because I like to know the influences. I could review an album I love and then find out that something else sounds like it and from an earlier era and that could affect my overall vote for the album. Discovering the influences of a band/artist you appreciate, goes a long way to appreciating them more, I believe.

So I can certainly see my tastes changing... I just hope I never move away completely from my current musical loves. I can see myself listening to more and more jazz and classical music in the future and perhaps moving away from the noisier stuff.

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Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 29 2008 at 04:56

stonebeard wrote:

I just listen to prog for the women. What, do you guys actually like this stuff.

Haha!

Well, us female prog listeners are obviously a cut above our unenlightened sisters (obviously! LOL

), but if you want to impress us, you'd better be a bona fide virtuoso, pal. Cool

[Er, well, decent personal hygiene and the ability to make eye contact will do for starters... Ermm

]

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 29 2008 at 05:10

NaturalScience wrote:

I wanted to think about this a bit before I crafted a response, but here's the bottom line answer:

I learned it from my father. What did I learn?

I learned that music was something one could take the time to sit down and appreciate, because that's exactly what he did: he was (still is, always has been) an audiophile, so after researching and getting fantastic components, speakers, etc. you obviously want to sit down and enjoy your "investment"...but I still learned from him to isolate the various instruments and hear what the musicians were doing, appreciate a clever turn of phrase in the lyrics of a song, or (as I got older and he got more into classical music) a bit more complex ideas such as variations on a theme. Funny thing is, not a single minute of all the music he played and I heard growing up was what we quasi-identify as "progressive rock" or "prog". My particular taste for that type of music I can only describe as innate (when I first heard Fragile by Yes at the age of about 11 or 12 there was an instant appreciation and "click", that elevated the music above all else I had experienced to date), I had to discover that type of music largely on my own and I knew almost nobody else that liked it.

That's a very good point. Children do learn by example, after all. Also, it helps if someone like your Dad is willing to share his enjoyment with you - music can be used to exclude and isolate as much as it can be enjoyed with others, and there must be plenty of audiophile Dads out there who would most likely say "Go away, I'm listening, do not disturb!" Ouch

It is interesting the way certain things 'click' immediately. I wish I knew how that works. Anyway, beginning by listening to classical music is a wonderful gateway to many other things (or so I hear. I've never been a major classical listener myself, but that is the stuff that has influenced almost everything else - as James says below).

So for me it was the role model of my Dad that taught me to be a "Participant Listener", as it were, because that's exactly what he did, and it never occurred to me to be otherwise - and to be honest, I think there are degrees of this sort of characterization. "Proggers" would perhaps be on the high "participation" side of this scale (appreciation of complexity and patience for long compositions), but that's not to say that my wife and a lot of my friends can't sit and listen to music as well at their own level of "participation" - in fact, I know very few people who would probably be called "consumers", or whatever you call those for whom music is as much of a background noise as the little fan I run when I go to sleep. It's certainly next to impossible for those of us who frequent this forum to begin to conceive of living that way.

Oh, I agree. The categories were rather blunt, black and white and extreme! Tongue

I have come across quite a few 'consumers' myself, however. Maybe not quite to the extent of not really listening at all, but certainly to the extent of putting the radio on simply to ignore it, buying records simply because they had reached no. 1 in the charts, and liking a song simply for its 'danceability' or connection to some special nightclub experience - rather than the musical content itself... Disapprove

Most people, however, whatever their taste, do of course like to concentrate on music from time to time. Smile

Recap: that I have some level of musical listening ability is learned; that I apply those things to progressive rock/music is just my innate passion - being drawn to this music is not something I can explain.

Of course, there's the whole topic of musical tastes changing over one's life and how previous experiences can shape the direction of one's musical journey...but that's for another blog. Wink

Do it, do it! Thumbs%20Up

And thanks for your comments on here. Big%20smile

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 29 2008 at 05:46

sleeper wrote:

May I start by saying that this is an impressive blog and has got me truly thinking like few things have in recent weeks. Clap

Thank you very much! Embarrassed

It sure is an interesting, if confusing, topic! Thanks for responding. Thumbs%20Up

I guess a round of disembleing (spelling isnt one of my strong points, I think this may become apparent today LOL

)

Galaxy, eh... if it's the one I'm aware of, your Dead

is spot on!! LOL

Yet another person to feel that immediate 'click' on a first listen - very interesting phenomenon, that. Now I'm beginning to wonder about 'liking' v. 'understanding' (for want of better words)... is it possible to like somewhat complex music without at least some understanding of it, or can those things be separate? Oh well, I'd have to define 'understanding' to answer that one... Confused

As to the main question, the short answer is both, but again a bit more detail on me to give a betterview of my musical habits is needed. I may be about the only persson here that will say that the PS2 and GT3/4 have been instrumental in helpping me along with my prog appreciation, and no, its not for the sound track supplied by Feeder. I have distinct memories of spending time playing this game whilst having, in particular, The Mars Volta's De- Loused in the Comatorium on (around early 2005 then). Over those few months I became increasingly aware that my ability to concentrate on the minutae of the music as well as effectively play the game was increasing to the point that I can now do other thigs whilst listning to and concentrating a fair bit, though not totally, on the music (as I write this, I am listening to Dark Suns Existence and, hopefully, making something resembaling sense here).

Well, what I'm about to write is going to throw a spanner in the works of my original ramblings, but I've probably contradicted myself enough already for that not to matter! LOL

Sometimes, it is easier to 'get' something that is more complicated than you are used to if you don't necessarily give it your full attention. If it's weird or unfamiliar, trying to unpick it mentally just seems to confuse you more. But put it on in the room and do something else with your conscious mind (playing a video game would be a good one!), and the music kind of sneaks past your mental censor - the thing that wants to say "that's not music, that's noise!", like an aggrieved Dad disapproving of your taste! So I guess what I mean is, *not* actively listening (at least the first few times you hear something) can help you concentrate on complex music better later on. Well, that's what I've found with some things, anyway... Big%20smile

The point of my rambalings was to show that my ability to pick up on very different music to the norm, whether I have been exposed to something even remotly like it or not before, and like or at least appreciate is inate but my skill for detailed listening was something built up over time (and entirely by accident).

The more you listen (and it looks like you're a pretty experienced listener), the easier it gets, I'm sure.

Right, as for the seperate, and very interesting, points you've made:

1a. I wouldnt go so far to call my self a musician but I do attempt to play the bass (for as long as I've been into music I've seemed to focus on the rhythm section the most, whch might in part explain why it was Chili's that were the first band I ever bought a CD of) from time to time. I picked it up, really, in an attempt to emulate my favourite bands but it has since expanded to encompass a desire to have a better understanding of what it is I'm listening to beyond "that was interesting". In this regards I'm definitely with TGM:Orb and Dean in that prog can inspire people to take up musicianship to help them understand what their heroes are playing, though I doubt this would be the first and main consideration when picking up that axe for the first time, but I'd be surprised if it didnt creep in quickly. Conversly, prog by its very nature would garner at least some proffesional interest from musicians and those that have even some small exerience of plonking a piano or picking a guitar may find it more imediatly attractive than those that dont have any musical experience.

Speaking purely from personal experience here... I think what attracts me to this sort of music is the knowledge (or at least, the fair suspicion) that I could never do that myself. I could never be that good. There is a certain amount of awe, and a certain amount of mystery, too. "How can a human being create that?!" With really basic music, I get that feeling of "Huh, well, I could have done that!" Making a pop song - even a good one - is quite easy. It's down to fashion and marketing as to whether it turns out to be successful or not. There is not much mystery in that. LOL

1b. I am, without doubt, a usless singer who can not keep in tune, but I at least seem to have a half decent ear for things like this. Not sure whether thats actualy related, I think it would have more to do with how sensitive your hearing is and just how honest/ self critical you are.

Those links that Certif1ed posted would appear to support that. There are people who can keep in tune, people who can't but know it, and people who can't and don't know it! The people who are aware of not being in tune might be able to learn to sing, with enough training...

2. Like you, my musical taste definitely runs to the darker side of prog far more than the lighter, nicer side (cant stand Yes, not too keen on the Flower Kings but love Van der Graaf Generator and King Crimson) but there are many, many prog listeners who are definitely the other way round. As to the general masses, I'd say that those that dont follow music as closely as most of us here do would much prefer "happier" music than something that was melencholic, doom laden or disturbing, though aggressive might be a different matter (thinks of "Gangsta rap", but not too hard). I think that in the end it comes down to two things, the way they treat music listening and the personality of the indavidual. Thats two variables but each with a massive range of atributes that will be the determaning factors here.

That's another really interesting topic. Why do some people like 'happy' music and some like 'dark' music? I might have to come back to that at some point! Tongue

But for now I'll say that 'happy' music often... weirdly enough... depresses me. But: I am weird (allegedly). I also prefer dark Winter nights to long Summer evenings, and a good thunderstorm with torrential rain to a baking hot day with blue sky. Wacko

The really odd thing is how these apparently dark and melancholy things actually make me feel cheerful.

3. With film/TV scores I get the feeling that people either take little notice of it or they associate it directly with something that is happening on screen, but may not care too much for it if is played on its own. For my part, I tend to ignore it almost all of the time, but then I think music in films is so overused and saturated that the only way I would notice it is when its not there. Ring is one of my favourite films in part because there is so little music. In fact, the only time I hafe taken more than a passing notice of a score is in the TV series Battlestar Galactica (the new one), which uses minimalism to stunning effect, but I'm rambeling now.

Some film music is indeed incredibly cheesy and insincere-sounding. I particularly dislike that rampantly predictable 'romcom' soundtrack stuff. Dead

What bores me is the lack of a point to what is going on in music. Simple can be intersting if done in a clever way and with a clear goal, Pink Floyd were masters of this IMO but electronic bands are the complete oposite (generalisation here, I havnt explored the electronic genre much and been given little desire to do so from what I've heard).The opposite is true of complex music, which can get lost in its own technique and forget that clinical technique isnt the only aspect of music. In general, though, I would much rather listen to complex music than simple. I'll take this furthar and say that listening to music that I find simplistic to a fault (pop, R&B, rap, a lot of indie, nu metal, "emo") is depressing for me to the point where I find it difficult to work more than 4 or 5 hours at work (where its on all the time) and not leave in a thouroghly sh*tty mood.

Personally, I can't stand Pink Floyd, but that's because for some reason I find their music really creepy and unsettling. Confused

<shallow> Also... t-shirts tucked into jeans. </shallow> LOL

The best combination is when the musicians have excellent technique that is so excellent it becomes pretty much subliminal/instinctive - they are not there posturing and thinking, "Oh yes, I'm going to impress everyone by playing this really fast bit. Golly, I am such a virtuoso! I am now making the Guitar Face! Go me!!" LOL

Instead, they are just playing naturally, magically. Big%20smile

In the end, I think I was always more predisposed to listen to prog, and by extent jazz and classical of which I am now beginning to explore, than pop from the beginning and probably has a lot more to do with nature rather than nurture as my dad's jazz days were long past by my earliest coherent memories and music actually played a near non existent role in my life before that first CD.

I guess at the end of the day, there has to be some sort of instant appeal (whether it's the music itself, or some idea about it) to give you the impetus to start and continue listening, and the experience/learning you acquire can only deepen your enjoyment and understanding. Smile

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 29 2008 at 06:09

James wrote:

I'm actually appreciating classical music a lot more now, than I did in the past. It is partly due to wanting to discover where the music I listen to comes from and partly because my ears are more finely tuned to that style of music, due mostly to my experience with chamber prog and klezmer.

I've never managed to get into classical music, thus far. But similarly to you I am curious about some of the classical influences on my favourite music. I've got a box set of Stravinksy that I really need to get listening to. Good old Igor seems to have influenced pretty much everything! (And very profoundly my two favourites, Zappa and Magma. The universe is telling me to listen to Stravinksy. LOL

)

This is one of the reasons I do not write reviews as much as I could... because I like to know the influences. I could review an album I love and then find out that something else sounds like it and from an earlier era and that could affect my overall vote for the album. Discovering the influences of a band/artist you appreciate, goes a long way to appreciating them more, I believe.

Indeed, indeed! This is a tricky conundrum. I have tons of stuff I'd like to review but I can't imagine myself doing so without hearing a lot more. Present needs a review from me but not without hearing more of their stuff and Univers Zero's too. Guapo will get some reviews but I need to hear the whole trilogy first (and much more Present/UZ/Magma listening will probably be relevant there too! Tongue

). I feel so weirdly au fait with Magma that I've done a number of reviews for them. Embarrassed

What I like is when you find something you love that is itself very influential. It's a great way to expand your musical time frame, for one thing. I've finally made it out of the 1970s (whilst still liking that musical decade more than any other)! Big%20smile

So I can certainly see my tastes changing... I just hope I never move away completely from my current musical loves. I can see myself listening to more and more jazz and classical music in the future and perhaps moving away from the noisier stuff.

One of the best things about this type of music is the wide ranging combination of different ingredients and antecedents. You can just bet that there is someone out there playing cathartically noisy and yet pastorally peaceful, 20th C. classical influenced, chamber prog with a dash of jazz and a soupçon of [insert attribute of choice here]! LOL

Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: July 29 2008 at 13:58

song_of_copper wrote:

Galaxy, eh... if it's the one I'm aware of, your Dead

is spot on!! LOL

I'd say yes on that one, I never had any understanding of complex music but it was quite plain to these ears that what I was listening to was a bit more than the average pop song and I liked it.

And yes, it is that Galaxy. Ouch

Well, what I'm about to write is going to throw a spanner in the works of my original ramblings, but I've probably contradicted myself enough already for that not to matter! LOL

I think you might have something there. With the example I used (The Mars Volta) I liked it pretty quickly (maybe first listen, I cant remember, but it didnt take long either way) but it was never an "easy listening" album and my ear certainly wasnt "trained" to pick up any nuances in music, it was just built up with improved familiarity I think.

Speaking purely from personal experience here... I think what attracts me to this sort of music is the knowledge (or at least, the fair suspicion) that I could never do that myself. I could never be that good. There is a certain amount of awe, and a certain amount of mystery, too. "How can a human being create that?!" With really basic music, I get that feeling of "Huh, well, I could have done that!" Making a pop song - even a good one - is quite easy. It's down to fashion and marketing as to whether it turns out to be successful or not. There is not much mystery in that. LOL

My thoughts exactly Thumbs%20Up

.

Those links that Certif1ed posted would appear to support that. There are people who can keep in tune, people who can't but know it, and people who can't and don't know it! The people who are aware of not being in tune might be able to learn to sing, with enough training...

If someone puts their mind to it and some effort into it then anyone can learn to sing in tune but that wont improve the quality of their voice. I'd bet I would still have a very low range and sound dreadful, I'd just be on the notes properly now.

That's another really interesting topic. Why do some people like 'happy' music and some like 'dark' music? I might have to come back to that at some point! Tongue

The really odd thing is how these apparently dark and melancholy things actually make me feel cheerful.

Nothing raises the spirits like a nice melencholic piece, eh. LOL

I actually have no answer to why I prefer darker or more melencholic pieces to nicer, lighter ones but I'm able to connect with them better thats for sure.

Some film music is indeed incredibly cheesy and insincere-sounding. I particularly dislike that rampantly predictable 'romcom' soundtrack stuff. Dead

Worse still, the lazies that just lift songs of albums for the length of the film with only samll pieces of original music. Thumbs%20Down

Personally, I can't stand Pink Floyd, but that's because for some reason I find their music really creepy and unsettling. Confused

<shallow> Also... t-shirts tucked into jeans. </shallow> LOL

I would have thought you liked creepy and unsettling. Wink

Instead, they are just playing naturally, magically. Big%20smile

Ah yes, trying too hard is not a good thing.

I guess at the end of the day, there has to be some sort of instant appeal (whether it's the music itself, or some idea about it) to give you the impetus to start and continue listening, and the experience/learning you acquire can only deepen your enjoyment and understanding. Smile

Agreed

I've cut my previous post out to avoid creating a monster.

You mentioned in your original post empathy. I think this can be a major part of enjoying music, personally its one of the biggest reasons why Pain of Salvations The Perfect Element is my favourite album, I empathise with the charecters in the concept a lot and the music works to bring this out. In fact, I've just had a thought (does happen occasionally). Empathy might be part of the reason that I (we?) like darker and more melencholic music (lets ignore aggressive dark music as it requires different emotions) because it is a response that this type of music is trying to bring out in the listener and some people are more readily capable to empathise in this way. (The end of that sentence is badly worded, I seem to be missing a word or two from my vocabulary, so I'm not sure if I'm gettting my point across.) This might be partially or even totally wrong, but it might at least offer a starting point.

-------------
Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: July 29 2008 at 17:25

sleeper wrote:

song_of_copper wrote:

Personally, I can't stand Pink Floyd, but that's because for some reason I find their music really creepy and unsettling. Confused

<shallow> Also... t-shirts tucked into jeans. </shallow> LOL

I would have thought you liked creepy and unsettling. Wink

I know, it's very peculiar! LOL

It just seems kind of desolate, shiny and emotionally unavailable to me, somehow. I know millions of people love Pink Floyd, and I'm not maligning their taste, but it just makes me feel unpleasant. Dead

You mentioned in your original post empathy. I think this can be a major part of enjoying music, personally its one of the biggest reasons why Pain of Salvations The Perfect Element is my favourite album, I empathise with the charecters in the concept a lot and the music works to bring this out. In fact, I've just had a thought (does happen occasionally). Empathy might be part of the reason that I (we?) like darker and more melencholic music (lets ignore aggressive dark music as it requires different emotions) because it is a response that this type of music is trying to bring out in the listener and some people are more readily capable to empathise in this way. (The end of that sentence is badly worded, I seem to be missing a word or two from my vocabulary, so I'm not sure if I'm gettting my point across.) This might be partially or even totally wrong, but it might at least offer a starting point.

I'm sure this is an important factor, and it's actually alerted me to a weird paradox. Many things that I like are often described as 'dark' or 'sinister', but I don't always feel as though they are particularly dark or sinister... to me, anyway. I guess the thing is that not many things are just dark - there are other elements in there too. Music that has a streak of humour amongst the darkness is always fun. Sort of... with an evil smile on its face. Evil%20Smile

Also, I'm sure many people want music that chimes in with what they're feeling. Maybe they want the music to empathise with them, in a weird way... Not sure if that makes sense... Confused

Myself, I don't like to have those kinds of unpleasant feelings amplified (see above re. PF!!). But the 'dark and sinister' stuff I like tends to give a different feeling - uplifting in a weird way. But I think that might be the complexity, rather than the darkness... There is something strangely exhilarating about flamboyantly-precocious, sulky and sinister music. Big%20smile

I suppose different people have very different reactions to the same thing - or pick out different elements to focus on...

Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 30 2008 at 18:11

I was thinking yesterday (shock horror! Shocked

), whilst listening to Shub-Niggurath's debut, that I wasn't listening to them to instill images into my brain but rather to listen to the instrumentation. It's a dark album. I like to call it Chamber Zeuhl myself. Yet I did not have images of caves or any Lovecraftian images. I did maybe a few times but that was because I was thinking about this subject matter and tried to imagine a situation that would fit the music. I was listening out for the drums, the guitar, the bass and the voices.

So I guess I'm not "synesthestic" (not the correct word--not sure what the right word is here) in terms of my listening. It would be interesting to know if someone was though.

-------------

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: August 01 2008 at 17:32

James wrote:

I was thinking yesterday (shock horror! Shocked

), whilst listening to Shub-Niggurath's debut, that I wasn't listened to them to instill images into my brain but rather to listen to the instrumentation. It's a dark album. I like to call it Chamber Zeuhl myself. Yet I did not have images of caves or any Lovecraftian images. I did maybe a few times but that was because I was thinking about this subject matter and tried to imagine a situation that would fit the music. I was listening out for the drums, the guitar, the bass and the voices.

Well, that makes sense - listening to the sounds! I don't suppose many people listen for the purpose of mental images, although weirdly enough (now that you mention it) I've heard a few things recently that immediately made me think of a vivid visual ('Elixirs' for one...). That's not habitual for me either, though.

So I guess I'm not "synesthestic" (not the correct word--not sure what the right word is here) in terms of my listening. It would be interesting to know if someone was though.

'Synaesthetic'? I think that's more a case of sounds having specific colours attached, though. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synaesthesia - this page of Wikipedia. Big%20smile

Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: August 01 2008 at 17:45

song_of_copper wrote:

James wrote:

I was thinking yesterday (shock horror! Shocked

I always thought the purpose of Post Rock was to invoke imagary... maybe that's why I find it quite dull and aggrandising.

Oh, I know what Synaesthesia means, Melissa. An interesting phenomenon as well, actually. I was just curious if there was a verb for "imagining images to music", so to speak.

Something else of quick note: I was watching that wonderful BBC programme about British minimalism and contemporary composers and now I want to explore that as well. It seems I am going backwards in terms of my listening patterns somewhat. Trying to find out the origins of all the music I love. The more I discover some of those old contemporary gems, the more I realise how little music has moved on in 50 years (or perhaps longer).

Note: apologies for any spelling errors, I am forced to use Internet Explorer and it does not have the ever-so-handy spelling applet that Firefox has. Luckily my spelling is not to shabby though.

Hopefully Firefox will start working for me here again soon...

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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 01 2008 at 17:51

song_of_copper wrote:

I don't suppose many people listen for the purpose of mental images

and yet what a great source to draw on for review writing

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: August 01 2008 at 18:31

James wrote:

I always thought the purpose of Post Rock was to invoke imagary... maybe that's why I find it quite dull and aggrandising.

Hehe, I never realised that! If they mean for everyone to have the same mental image at the same time, then they've got a tough job! Tongue

Oh, I know what Synaesthesia means, Melissa. An interesting phenomenon as well, actually. I was just curious if there was a verb for "imagining images to music", so to speak.

Oh, ok then! LOL

It's certainly something that fascinates me.

Hmm, you're right, there ought to be a word for that. If there isn't, I'll have to make one up. Big%20smile

You could call it "aural mirage", perchance...?!

Note: apologies for any spelling errors, I am forced to use Internet Explorer and it does not have the ever-so-handy spelling applet that Firefox has. Luckily my spelling is not to shabby though.

Hopefully Firefox will start working for me here again soon...

Haha, I'm not going to go grammarhound on you! Tongue

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: August 01 2008 at 18:33

Atavachron wrote:

song_of_copper wrote:

I don't suppose many people listen for the purpose of mental images

and yet what a great source to draw on for review writing

You're so right. Haha, when I write reviews I certainly indulge in linguistic flights of fancy (and I do mention mental images when present...), but that's mostly because I have zero technical know-how! Tongue

Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: August 01 2008 at 18:40

song_of_copper wrote:

James wrote:

I always thought the purpose of Post Rock was to invoke imagary... maybe that's why I find it quite dull and aggrandising.

Hehe, I never realised that! If they mean for everyone to have the same mental image at the same time, then they've got a tough job! Tongue

Well most of it bores me... so people must find something in post rock that makes them not want to hit a wall in frustration! I like minimalism. I like some solo piano works. I like small free jazz ensembles. Post Rock though... it does very little for me. So people must therefore listen to it because it invokes images... or maybe I just miss something. LOL

Oh, I know what Synaesthesia means, Melissa. An interesting phenomenon as well, actually. I was just curious if there was a verb for "imagining images to music", so to speak.

Oh, ok then! LOL

It's certainly something that fascinates me.

Hmm, you're right, there ought to be a word for that. If there isn't, I'll have to make one up. Big%20smile

You could call it "aural mirage", perchance...?!

Aural eargasm. Wink

That's an interesting one. I guess it's taken a long while for some of these things to become accepted (even just a little bit). Those composers must've been way ahead of their time!

It seems to me as though some people are going a bit too far in an effort not to be derivative nowadays, and are alluding to all sorts of very disparate and seemingly unconnected influences. Sometimes I read people's lists of influences and wonder whether someone is pulling my leg... ("Hmm, Mozart and Tupac...?")

Oh I know how you feel there. Some bands list all sorts of influences and I am left scratching my head in amusement, a lot of the time.

This minimalism I want to explore though are obvious influences for many avant-prog and avant-garde bands.

Note: apologies for any spelling errors, I am forced to use Internet Explorer and it does not have the ever-so-handy spelling applet that Firefox has. Luckily my spelling is not to shabby though.

Hopefully Firefox will start working for me here again soon...

Haha, I'm not going to go grammarhound on you! Tongue

I do not mind. I have got Firefox working again now, so all misspelled words should be underlined when I type. Except of course, my grammar can still be atrocious. LOL

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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: September 07 2008 at 03:07

It is difficult to pinpoint what makes people appreciate in a certain way that other people can't, not least because there are so many aspects to it. I have never learnt music formally and have to play keyboard with one hand as opposed to two because I was never taught how to play with both hands - something I propose to correct soon - but I have no problems in picking the tune on the keyboard flawlessly. I don't have technique, but I have an acute grasp of sound. I think it is innate because I have been doing it since I was a kid of 9 or 10. I have met people who can play sheet music beautifully but tell them to pick the tune on the keys without notes to read from and they can't. Let's get to singing. I never pursued singing seriously, I have a very limited range and my voice isn't anything special either. But when I LISTEN to music, I can spot subtle variations in the vocals that contribute to the mood that I find some people who sing seem to miss while they can reproduce the song in a technical song accurately. Ergo, the conclusion is that some part of music appreciation is necessarily innate, you either get it or you don't, training can enable you to perform music but I doubt it would help you appreciate it - the two things are not related too strongly in my opinion. On the other hand, a person with music in his/her blood would benefit greatly from formally learning music in my opinion because taking my own example again, I can never get behind the music and decipher HOW it was made. I am interested in the mood, the imagination shown in constructing and stringing together passages of music but the technicalities are alien to me beyond a point because I don't understand that side of it.

Since this is a prog forum, let's also talk about what makes one listen to progressive music. Prog means different things to different people, for me it means expansiveness, the unshackling of rock music from the verse-chorus constraint so that it can explore newer and newer frontiers. The motivation to listen to prog rather than hard rock - and I love hard rock by the way - is the same as it is when I choose to read Thomas Hardy or Somerset Maugham rather than Sydney Sheldon or James Hadley Chase. I think the latter two are excellent writers, I'd love to be able to handle English with so much confidence and to be able to write so crisply and racily. But with them, I only get a story to read, enjoy and forget, with Maugham, I get a perspective on life I ponder about for weeks. Progressive music too in the same way lends itself to explorations of life because it offers a greater scope to do so for musicians than radio-oriented music. This is not to say that radio-oriented music is necessarily always shallow and lacking in profound thoughts but it has certain limitations that prog is free from. So, if you love music and if you are interested in exploring the meaning of life, chances are you will chance upon progarchives and become an ardent follower of progressive rock - it happened to me.

Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: September 07 2008 at 18:58

rogerthat wrote:

It is difficult to pinpoint what makes people appreciate in a certain way that other people can't, not least because there are so many aspects to it. I have never learnt music formally and have to play keyboard with one hand as opposed to two because I was never taught how to play with both hands - something I propose to correct soon - but I have no problems in picking the tune on the keyboard flawlessly. I don't have technique, but I have an acute grasp of sound. I think it is innate because I have been doing it since I was a kid of 9 or 10. I have met people who can play sheet music beautifully but tell them to pick the tune on the keys without notes to read from and they can't. Let's get to singing. I never pursued singing seriously, I have a very limited range and my voice isn't anything special either. But when I LISTEN to music, I can spot subtle variations in the vocals that contribute to the mood that I find some people who sing seem to miss while they can reproduce the song in a technical song accurately. Ergo, the conclusion is that some part of music appreciation is necessarily innate, you either get it or you don't, training can enable you to perform music but I doubt it would help you appreciate it - the two things are not related too strongly in my opinion. On the other hand, a person with music in his/her blood would benefit greatly from formally learning music in my opinion because taking my own example again, I can never get behind the music and decipher HOW it was made. I am interested in the mood, the imagination shown in constructing and stringing together passages of music but the technicalities are alien to me beyond a point because I don't understand that side of it.

I completely agree with you here! Your experience is very close to mine. I haven't a clue about the technicalities of music, but I'm very definitely 'musical' and can pick out most things by ear. And that's been a lifelong thing with me. I liken it to being able to spell well without effort. Despite various people's vehemence on the matter, I believe that this is an innate attribute that cannot be learnt. You can learn to read music and to understand music theory, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have that 'unlearned feel' for music, that some people have. Probably lots of people have it, but without the musical education to go with it, it may not shine brightly enough for others to see.

Since this is a prog forum, let's also talk about what makes one listen to progressive music. Prog means different things to different people, for me it means expansiveness, the unshackling of rock music from the verse-chorus constraint so that it can explore newer and newer frontiers. The motivation to listen to prog rather than hard rock - and I love hard rock by the way - is the same as it is when I choose to read Thomas Hardy or Somerset Maugham rather than Sydney Sheldon or James Hadley Chase. I think the latter two are excellent writers, I'd love to be able to handle English with so much confidence and to be able to write so crisply and racily. But with them, I only get a story to read, enjoy and forget, with Maugham, I get a perspective on life I ponder about for weeks. Progressive music too in the same way lends itself to explorations of life because it offers a greater scope to do so for musicians than radio-oriented music. This is not to say that radio-oriented music is necessarily always shallow and lacking in profound thoughts but it has certain limitations that prog is free from. So, if you love music and if you are interested in exploring the meaning of life, chances are you will chance upon progarchives and become an ardent follower of progressive rock - it happened to me.

Haha, I am more ardent with every passing day. Embarrassed

Discovering music is such joy. Again, I agree with you! Complexity is the bees knees! If I want a dumb pop song, I'll write one. Wink

Music that does weird and marvellous and unique things is my very favourite kind. Big%20smile

Thanks for commenting! Smile

Sorry for the dull response on my part, but... yeah. "I Agree"! Embarrassed

Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: September 08 2008 at 05:45

rogerthat wrote:

It is difficult to pinpoint what makes people appreciate in a certain way that other people can't, not least because there are so many aspects to it. I have never learnt music formally and have to play keyboard with one hand as opposed to two because I was never taught how to play with both hands - something I propose to correct soon - but I have no problems in picking the tune on the keyboard flawlessly. I don't have technique, but I have an acute grasp of sound. I think it is innate because I have been doing it since I was a kid of 9 or 10. I have met people who can play sheet music beautifully but tell them to pick the tune on the keys without notes to read from and they can't. Let's get to singing. I never pursued singing seriously, I have a very limited range and my voice isn't anything special either. But when I LISTEN to music, I can spot subtle variations in the vocals that contribute to the mood that I find some people who sing seem to miss while they can reproduce the song in a technical song accurately. Ergo, the conclusion is that some part of music appreciation is necessarily innate, you either get it or you don't, training can enable you to perform music but I doubt it would help you appreciate it - the two things are not related too strongly in my opinion. On the other hand, a person with music in his/her blood would benefit greatly from formally learning music in my opinion because taking my own example again, I can never get behind the music and decipher HOW it was made. I am interested in the mood, the imagination shown in constructing and stringing together passages of music but the technicalities are alien to me beyond a point because I don't understand that side of it.

To be completely honest, the whole "music is either in your blood or not" is normally just a load of garbage, unless your speaking of perhaps someone born with perfect, who will then usually have an inherent advantage over the people without it in the field of music.
I don't really understand how people believe that sort of crap to be honest (no offense to you on my part, I mean in general). I guarantee you there are people out there that went from "not having music in their blood" to being virtuoso musicians.
I spent most of my life knowing nothing about music really.
How do you explain that I now possess a good sense of relative pitch and can sometimes tell what an arpeggio is from just by hearing it?
I wasn't born with any of these abilities, nor do I believe I was born with an "innate musical sense".
Taking from your examples, if I hear a vocalist, I listen to spaces, vocal phrases etc, but I guess it makes more sense to speak as a guitarist (which I am), and that I know how to apply subtle nuances in my playing, have a sense of phrasing (which all came from learning technique). It was all developed from playing, and then from ear training, listening to other musicians and how their make their approach.
Anyone with a reasonable level of intelligence, any able body, and the drive could learn to play guitar as I did, learn to here the phrases, have a sense of relative pitch and compose music.
After spending much time studying music theory, a lot of things really "come into the light" so to speak and it can really help you to break through limitations like not having perfect pitch for eg.
It also really helped me from not really appreciating complex, technical music, to absolutely loving it.

"but I have no problems in picking the tune on the keyboard flawlessly"
What do you mean by this? Being able to hear the key signature? Being able to play it exactly by ear?

Other questions... do you really have to fumble around first before you "pick the tune" or does it come to you straight away?

Since this is a prog forum, let's also talk about what makes one listen to progressive music. Prog means different things to different people, for me it means expansiveness, the unshackling of rock music from the verse-chorus constraint so that it can explore newer and newer frontiers. The motivation to listen to prog rather than hard rock - and I love hard rock by the way - is the same as it is when I choose to read Thomas Hardy or Somerset Maugham rather than Sydney Sheldon or James Hadley Chase. I think the latter two are excellent writers, I'd love to be able to handle English with so much confidence and to be able to write so crisply and racily. But with them, I only get a story to read, enjoy and forget, with Maugham, I get a perspective on life I ponder about for weeks. Progressive music too in the same way lends itself to explorations of life because it offers a greater scope to do so for musicians than radio-oriented music. This is not to say that radio-oriented music is necessarily always shallow and lacking in profound thoughts but it has certain limitations that prog is free from. So, if you love music and if you are interested in exploring the meaning of life, chances are you will chance upon progarchives and become an ardent follower of progressive rock - it happened to me.

I think you'll find that if you can't find non prog bands that also are quite outside those "limitations" you speak of, you're really not looking hard enough.
There are so many non prog bands and non prog rock genres that are also incredibly far removed from pop music.

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Posted By: song_of_copper
Date Posted: September 08 2008 at 06:45

HughesJB4 wrote:

(orig. post trimmed for readers' courtesy!)
To be completely honest, the whole "music is either in your blood or not" is normally just a load of garbage, unless your speaking of perhaps someone born with perfect, who will then usually have an inherent advantage over the people without it in the field of music.
I don't really understand how people believe that sort of crap to be honest (no offense to you on my part, I mean in general). I guarantee you there are people out there that went from "not having music in their blood" to being virtuoso musicians.
I spent most of my life knowing nothing about music really.
How do you explain that I now possess a good sense of relative pitch and can sometimes tell what an arpeggio is from just by hearing it?
I wasn't born with any of these abilities, nor do I believe I was born with an "innate musical sense".
Taking from your examples, if I hear a vocalist, I listen to spaces, vocal phrases etc, but I guess it makes more sense to speak as a guitarist (which I am), and that I know how to apply subtle nuances in my playing, have a sense of phrasing (which all came from learning technique). It was all developed from playing, and then from ear training, listening to other musicians and how their make their approach.
Anyone with a reasonable level of intelligence, any able body, and the drive could learn to play guitar as I did, learn to here the phrases, have a sense of relative pitch and compose music.
After spending much time studying music theory, a lot of things really "come into the light" so to speak and it can really help you to break through limitations like not having perfect pitch for eg.
It also really helped me from not really appreciating complex, technical music, to absolutely loving it.

Harry, I know that you are a technical maestro, and that you have spent many hours honing your musical skill and studying the theory of music. I hope that nobody reading this could underestimate how much dedication and effort that has taken, and how completely admirable it is. (Esp. by a no-talent hack like me! LOL

)

However, my personal belief is that there are two routes to 'musicality'. Some people just are innately musical - perhaps everyone is, to varying degrees, assuming that they do not suffer from any neurological difficulties! There is the route you have taken - training, practice, self-improvement. And then there is the other route - followed by those of us who cannot remember a time before song.

Both are, in my opinion, equally valid. Both have their problems, too.

Someone like me who can't read music or get their bimboish little brain around music theory is at a major disadvantage, compositionally speaking. I can imagine very complex music, but I can't play it or write it down.

On the other hand, someone who is wholly technical may find themselves relying on learned conventions rather than following their creative instincts. (NB: I'm not suggesting that this is you.)

I guess what I really mean is that yes, music has rules. But you don't necessarily need to have been taught them (or have taught yourself these rules, in a formal manner) to understand them. Just growing up hearing music is enough to be aware of that stuff, if your brain is arranged in the right way. Plenty of people don't need to 'know' that a particular type of chord goes well [here] - they don't need to know what it's called, or anything else about it - they can just sort of... put it in.

"but I have no problems in picking the tune on the keyboard flawlessly"
What do you mean by this? Being able to hear the key signature? Being able to play it exactly by ear?

Other questions... do you really have to fumble around first before you "pick the tune" or does it come to you straight away?

Speaking very personally, I can pick out almost anything (unless it's totally weird) pretty immediately, with one finger on the piano. (No way do I have perfect pitch, though. But I can easily transpose what I've heard to an easy-to-play-in key.) Like I said in my reply above, it's like spelling. The musical equivalent of two-finger typing. This may be to do with the way one's brain and hearing works, though. When I was very young, everyone in my class at school got tested on how good they were at naming intervals, singing back short musical phrases, clapping rhythms, etc. I totally aced that test at 8 years old (with the bare minimum of musical education behind me). Cool

There are plenty of people who can read music and play an instrument well who are not very good at that sort of thing... not very good at all. You certainly can improve at that stuff with practice, but some people can do it very easily without being taught how. (Haha, sorry, that all sounds very vain. I didn't mean to boast!! Embarrassed

)

[trimmed again!]

I think you'll find that if you can't find non prog bands that also are quite outside those "limitations" you speak of, you're really not looking hard enough.
There are so many non prog bands and non prog rock genres that are also incredibly far removed from pop music.

That is undoubtedly true.

Anyway... I think that having BOTH the innate instinct for music and the dedication to learn the technical side is what makes a true musical genius. Talent isn't enough, and technique may not be either, depending on the person.

Well... I've rambled enough! That's all! LOL

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: September 08 2008 at 10:29

HughesJB4 wrote:

To be completely honest, the whole "music is either in your blood or not" is normally just a load of garbage, unless your speaking of perhaps someone born with perfect, who will then usually have an inherent advantage over the people without it in the field of music.
I don't really understand how people believe that sort of crap to be honest (no offense to you on my part, I mean in general). I guarantee you there are people out there that went from "not having music in their blood" to being virtuoso musicians.
I spent most of my life knowing nothing about music really.
How do you explain that I now possess a good sense of relative pitch and can sometimes tell what an arpeggio is from just by hearing it?
I wasn't born with any of these abilities, nor do I believe I was born with an "innate musical sense".
Taking from your examples, if I hear a vocalist, I listen to spaces, vocal phrases etc, but I guess it makes more sense to speak as a guitarist (which I am), and that I know how to apply subtle nuances in my playing, have a sense of phrasing (which all came from learning technique). It was all developed from playing, and then from ear training, listening to other musicians and how their make their approach.
Anyone with a reasonable level of intelligence, any able body, and the drive could learn to play guitar as I did, learn to here the phrases, have a sense of relative pitch and compose music.
After spending much time studying music theory, a lot of things really "come into the light" so to speak and it can really help you to break through limitations like not having perfect pitch for eg.
It also really helped me from not really appreciating complex, technical music, to absolutely loving it.[/QUOTE}

You know better but it is quite possible that you had latent musicality that you didn't explore and didn't attempt to endeavour. I have seen people who have learnt music formally struggle to match scale with me when I accompany them, so there ARE people who probably cannot be taught music no matter how hard you try. Ergo, you get music or you don't, how far you get music is a question that depends on your experiences in music and your learning too. As you can see from my earlier post, I am aware that the technical aspects of music elude me and I am not scornful of it and wish to correct it. If only wishes were horses! Cry

HughesJB4 wrote:

"but I have no problems in picking the tune on the keyboard flawlessly"
What do you mean by this? Being able to hear the key signature? Being able to play it exactly by ear?

Other questions... do you really have to fumble around first before you "pick the tune" or does it come to you straight away?

I can pick the whole sequence of a note formation without any trouble. If I experience trouble, it is because my fingers cannot obey my brain's command and fumble and trip over each other but not because of hitting the wrong note ever. I don't have to fiddle around and then "Eureka, I got it.". It just comes to me naturally and I have no explanation why I can do it. I never played keyboard upto the age of 9, so I discovered my musicality only then. LOL

[QUOTE=HughesJB4]

I think you'll find that if you can't find non prog bands that also are quite outside those "limitations" you speak of, you're really not looking hard enough.
There are so many non prog bands and non prog rock genres that are also incredibly far removed from pop music.

I don't know that I implied that ONLY prog music is removed from pop and has profound thoughts. Shocked

I said one reason for certain kinds of people to take to prog could be because of what seperates it from prog. I have also said that pop (or rock) is not necessarily always as dumb as hardcore proggers make it out to be but it suffers from constraints that prog doesn't.

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: September 08 2008 at 12:40

HughesJB4 wrote:

I spent most of my life knowing nothing about music really.

I am taking this up again because I would like to add a few more points. What is the definition of "knowing nothing about music"? I am sure even in that part of your life, you would have been able to separate tuneful patterns of sound from pure noise though you would have been indifferent to music as such, which is what musicality is all about if you ask me. There are people who cannot make this distinction and I don't think they are a minority because merely being endowed with hearing ability does not help you perceive music - it is a suggestive pursuit. There is no reason why a pattern of sounds should suggest some thoughts, some feelings to you but they do because you can grasp music. As the lines between noise and music in the normally understood sense get more and more blurred, it becomes a more and more elusive pursuit because fewer people are willing to persevere that far. To again use a reference to reading, how do you explain that often scholarly, intelligent and articulate people have no interest in reading fiction, whether prose or poetry? Because it is an artistic pursuit and it fulfils a need for some people whereas for some others the need doesn't exist at all. The same goes for music.