Canada, oh Canada...
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Topic: Canada, oh Canada...
Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Subject: Canada, oh Canada...
Date Posted: July 14 2008 at 23:11
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Just curious, especially on what Canadians think about http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080714.wwardeserter0714/BNStory/National/?page=rss&id=RTGAM.20080714.wwardeserter0714 - this subject ... BTW, before anyone attacks me personally please note I am a 12 year U.S. Marine Corps veteran, so I have earned the right to any opinion I choose to have  .------------- "Peace is the only battle worth waging." Albert Camus |
Replies:
Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: July 14 2008 at 23:27
| The only answer that respects even minimally the concept of democracy is that it's up to Canadians to decide the policies of their government. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 15 2008 at 00:03
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It's sad.... It's just sad....
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Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: July 15 2008 at 01:01
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Canida can do what ever it wants, its up to america to get americans to serve, if canada wants to help so be it, if not i'm sure it wouldent be too much a streach to wall off both our borders. ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Hirgwath
Date Posted: July 15 2008 at 02:38
I'm not disagreeing with you, but another important feature of any democracy is openness to immigrants and some pluralism. That said, I want to point out that draft dodgers (during the Vietnam era, especially) were not cowards. The vast majority of them wanted no part in a war that they felt was based on shaky moral ground. They fled because of their beliefs. And one of the great features of both Canada and the US is that we have always accepted people who are fleeing because their former society did not tolerate their beliefs. ------------- Skwisgaar Skwigelf: taller than a tree. Toki Wartooth: not a bumblebee. |
WinterLight wrote:Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: July 15 2008 at 10:41
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: July 15 2008 at 13:26
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Personally, as one who opposes the Iraq war, here is my two cents. If you enlisted in the army, you chose to serve the army. As far as I know, you are not given a checklist of places, causes or wars that you can opt out of. Vietnam was different, in that the draft was still in effect. But for a volunteer army, consciencious (sorry , can't find the correct spelling) deserter sounds like an easy way out of combat when faced with that possibility. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Hirgwath
Date Posted: July 15 2008 at 17:07
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^Good point, debrewguy, but you have to admit, they *could* have anticipated fighting a war that was based on "just war" theory, rather than a preemptive strike.
------------- Skwisgaar Skwigelf: taller than a tree. Toki Wartooth: not a bumblebee. |
Posted By: Hirgwath
Date Posted: July 15 2008 at 17:13
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I can't speak intelligently about Canada, but that's certainly not the case for the US: Washington has opened and closed its gates as to its benefit. Not always, but you have to admit America has a pretty great track record on the whole "accepting the oppressed masses" thing. Imperfect, (like the ban on Chinese immigration), but still very open. I guess I was speaking in terms of ideals. ------------- Skwisgaar Skwigelf: taller than a tree. Toki Wartooth: not a bumblebee. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: July 15 2008 at 17:54
I do believe that this option is not available when you sign up. So it's all or nothing. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Hirgwath
Date Posted: July 16 2008 at 00:51
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Legally or morally? Legally you're obviously correct, but morally I don't see how it matters. Remember, America had never self-consciously engaged in preemptive war before now. ------------- Skwisgaar Skwigelf: taller than a tree. Toki Wartooth: not a bumblebee. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: July 16 2008 at 11:14
Morally speaking, you're signing up with an organization whose existence is based on the fact that it will fight in the conflicts and wars deemed necessary by the government. Again, I believe that there is no exemption listed on your enrollment that you can check off. And just to repeat myself, I do not, and have not ever, supported the Iraq war. I do support the war in Afghanistan, however. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 09:26
As half Canadian myself, that's pretty close to what I think..... ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 13:42
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Well we just sent a couple of deserters back just this week. These guys volunteered and in exchange for a coollege education they had to serve 5 years if I`m not mistaken. I served in the military myself and found myself in some hot spots. I mean what are you joining up for ? The military is not a country club and perhaps one the most unfair jobs going regardless of what you do. The current slogan for recruiting in Canada for the three services is Join The Fight. That`s what you`re joining up for to fight. And if you don`t want to fight don`t join. So I would say send them back and let the Americans deal with these bums. As far as Vietnam, the dumbest war in history, goes that was different. Some guys came to Canada some went to Sweden and other European countries. I would say in that circumstance we should give them asylum. My cousin who is Canadian did two tours in Vietnam flying Hueys got shot down a few times. So here we are giving Americans refuge while our boys are volunteering while their boys are running scared to Canada. I don`t have the exact figure but quite a few Canadians fought with American forces in Vietnam an many didn`t come back. ------------- |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 07:11
Hi Ian,
I'd say things are a little different south of ther border though....
In Canada, you know you're getting in the army to serve and defend your country, and since Canada acts civilly in the world, the army is a safe place to be, eventually serving in peace-keeping force asthr high danger point.....
Sothbound, the US is an offensive (in matters of defence) nation where you're likely to go fighting for private interest (Exxon and Texaco and Bush enterprises in Irak) or Isreal (Iran), not the nation (that was eventually Afghamistan)
I can still feel a bit sorry for those that had that enlisted before 9/11 , thinking the risk was relatively minimal of heading into another foresseable Vitetnam-type fiasco like Irak. But for those that enlisted since, they were pretty dumb thinking of the army as a career...... ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 11:07
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Well these particular guys enlisted after 911. I think the problem with these guys volunteering is that they don`t really understand the implications of being in the US military particularily combat roles such as the infantry or as a gunship or fighter pilot the chances are that you are going to be sent to some hot spot these days. Because the American forces are beginning to be spread rather thin they need all the guys they can get and the recruiters are not being as selective and neglect to properly inform these young men and women about exactly what they`re getting themselves into. For many of these young people who have limited education I guess joining the service is better than working at a McJob or no job at all. It`s kind of sad they go over to Iraq or Afghanistan and get killed or maimed for life and they`re no more than 19 20 years old. But then again war has always been a young man`s game. Unfortunately since the American Civil War the Americans have traditionally taken heavy losses. On the other hand the Canadians I have talked to coming back from Afghanistan have a clearer picture of what the freak is going on. We also have a lot of reservists over there who have taken leave from their civy jobs to go over and are attached to the Princess Pats, Royal 22nd, 2 RCR or a support unit and many have been casualties. We have a different minset than the Americans and are generally better trained and informed. Nothing against the Americans here but this is a fact. ------------- |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 11:15
You know how the different European marines used to get recruits for centuries??? They'd start paying drink, than get you completely drunk, get you to sign the enlisment papers and throw you on the boat still drunk a few minutes before taking to sea..... ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 11:39
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well until recently many European countries had conscription but I think that this has been discontinued in many countries. I had a high school buddy that had to go and do his time as a radar technician in the Swedish Air Force. I think Switzerland still maintains a part-time army and air force with just a handful of regular units. I`ve met a few Swiss Air pilots and they all had to fly jets for the Flugwaffe twice a year. I have this friend from Germany who is now anexecutive chef in a large hotel who got his cooking papers serving in the German Army. Of course he had to go through basic training with all the other guys. I guess if you play your cards right the military can work for you. It worked for me.
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