Watershed some light
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Recommendations/Featured albums
Forum Description: Make or seek recommendations and discuss specific prog albums
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49320
Printed Date: November 23 2024 at 08:17
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Topic: Watershed some light
Posted By: Chris S
Subject: Watershed some light
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 01:27
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I was just noticing all the five star reviews on Opeth's new offering ' Watershed' Is it really that good or are the review ratings skewed by overzealous loyal fans? I was thinking that maybe the novelty of a new album will wear off and we might see some more realistic overall ratings down the track. I must confess not having listened to it other than seeing the video on PA but if it is really that good.... ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Replies:
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 01:33
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Every single new album from any popular band gets a bunch of five star fanboy reviews at first. I remember Nil Recurring had a rating like 4.90 after some forty reviews, but now after 121 it's 3.77. It happens every time. But well, I can't say if Watershed is really that good, I've listened to it about 15 times, and I still don't have any big picture. It's difficult at least. |
Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 01:53
Due to the glowing reviews I feel I better check it out , I'm not into Opeth much but it feels like the glowing reviews are twisting my arm to the point its nearly fallen off !  The rating at Rate Your Music for this CD is a bit lower, They have more reviews so far perhaps things will start to become more accurate in time here with more reviews etc. |
Posted By: Prospero
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 01:56
| I don't like it, none of the riffs are of any appeal to me. |
Posted By: KeleCableII
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 02:09
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I've had some trouble getting into it. I listen to the first few seconds of a song and I'm already bored of it (although I haven't checked the last few songs yet). It just isn't as immediately appealing to me as Ghost Reveries (which is the only Opeth album I've been able to get into). So I dunno, I'll give it a few more chances but I have a feeling you may be right. |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 02:23
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I can't stand it.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 02:40
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Avantgardehead wrote:Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 02:58
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My copy has arrived - and I truly expect it to end up on eBay like the other Opeth albums I bought.
Review imminent... ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 03:42
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It doesn't have the flow or power of Ghost Reveries. It's more of a transitional album, though it is a darn good one. Not as good as the reviews say, but a worthy release. ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph  
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 03:44
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Ye Gods - I've only got to track 3, and I'm bored of it.
This is NOT a Masterpiece of Prog - be warned!!
There's nothing wrong with it, if you like this sort of music, but the 5-star reviews are misleading...
...actually, they're not - if you read them, they almost all say "This is good because I like it a lot", and nowhere does it actually mention anything that's progressive.
And to think there's a thread in this forum questioning the proggyness of Pink Floyd... ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 04:19
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I agree that this is NOT a five-star album. I've had the mp3s for quite a while but only reviewed it after purchasing the album on the day it came out. It's far short of a masterpiece. Most of the reviews focus on the usual things reviewers hear when they first listen to an album - cool moments, odd things, solos - but not on the songwriting. If you're a casual progger and not an Opeth fan, don't buy it yet. Wait for more even-handed reviews ... |
Posted By: Genesister
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 04:44
It's my favorite Opeth album, even topping Blackwater Park and Still Life. I've had a good two months to make this decision.
I see your point on mentioning why it's progressive, but aside from that what do you expect them to do, say "This is good because it sucks"? |
Posted By: Baza
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 04:48
| This album is pretty good but not great - it's far behind "Still Life" and "Blackwater Park" which are masterpieces IMO, and it also isn't as good as "Ghost Reveries", which is a very good album too. I believe that a month or two from now this album average will be around 4.0-4.1. |
Posted By: SilverAnubis
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 05:04
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Is a very good album! But not a masterpiece... Still Life or Blackwater Park are more better. In Progressive Metal, albums like SFAM, Perfect Element or Lateralus are more better than Watershed. The five stars are overrated sometimes... |
Posted By: Demonoid
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 05:05
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I thought the album was pretty good. Obviously won't be as good as Still Life. But Heir Apparent, Lotus Eater and Hessian Peel were all great songs imo. Certainly a solid release. I'd give it 4/5. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 05:05
There is no "aside from" when it comes to progressive on this site.
I don't understand the second part of your question. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 05:37
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plan to two-star this.
yeah i know i always two-star metal but Dark Suns and this year's Meshuggah fared better and so will To-Mera the album just isn't very exciting ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: Apsalar
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 05:54
| Spun this twice on the day of purchase and have not felt inclined to listen to it again. Should be interesting to see if itmakes the player again... probably not; made me feel awkward. |
Posted By: The Crow
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 06:58
Have you heard the album only one time? And you've made a review giving it only one star yet? What an accurate reviewer! I don't write a review of an album after a long time of hearing... Usually months. Because the first impressions are often wrong. Reading your review carefully, I really doubt you've heard the album completely, and I even don't think you've paid attention to it... And these comparisions with Nickelback! 
About "Watershed", I think it's a really good album... Maybe not my Opeht's favourite, but the most complete album the've ever released. Maybe the death metal fans will miss more growling and hard parts, and people who are not into death music, will find some songs annoying... But speaking from my own point of view, I can only say that I enjoy all the songs included in "Watershed". Of course, this album deserve the 5 stars rating... But it also deserves the 1 star rating. Because everyone has a different opinion, and everyone has the right to give it. My favourite Opeth album is "Deliverance"... And it only has a bit more than 3.5 in ProgArchives! But it will not change my mind. I don't know how many stars will I give to "Watershed"... But it's a worthy purchase, without any doubt! |
Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 07:15
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I love the new album. Don't care what others have to say.
------------- 
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Posted By: Marwin
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 08:28
After listening to the album for a few days many times i can say i love it and if i were to review it right now i would definately give it 5 stars
------------- http://myspace.com/toxicmindfin http://myspace.com/porcelainprog |
Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 08:31
I'm with this, but I'd give it three.
I'm an opeth fan for sure, but this album doesn't stand out for me. I miss the atmosphere of earlier albums. It's a solid record, I enjoy it, but I can say that the honeymoon is already over between me and this album and I like pretty much all the others better than this one.
As a rule, never believe the 5 star reviews. It's good that we have 5 star and one star reviews so you know which ones NOT to read. ------------- http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic ALTAIC "Oceans Down You'll Lie" coming soon |
Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 08:55
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Posted By: Zitro
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 09:18
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I heard the album as a whole at least 10 times, and some tracks individually. I just feel that this album is as enjoyable as "Still Life" which was my favorite from them. As I stated in the review, I feel it is not as coherent as Still Life (and actually a few others) and they could improve on that aspect in the future. Nevertheless, the album's songwriting/arrangement bring some of Opeth's most exciting and beautiful songs to date. to Certified: did you just listen to the album once and reviewed it? you got the album and reviewed it on the same day. Give it more time, like I did with some albums I initially disliked and after several listens grew on me. Of course, sometimes they get even worse after more listens like the last album from Mars Volta *sigh* |
Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 10:15
Correction: I like this one better than Ghost Reveries, but I like the older albums better. Just a matter of personal preference. ------------- http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic ALTAIC "Oceans Down You'll Lie" coming soon |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 11:22
I wouldnt have thought you liked To-Mera, what did you think? Its a good album, better than Ghost Reveries, Damnation and Deliverance, but not as good as their mid period albums, it doesnt quite have the atmosphere of those albums, 4 stars. As for Cert1fieds review, well any review made on the same day as perchase is useless IMO and Cert's a well known prog metal hater so I ignore his comments on anything to do with this genre. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Vince
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 11:42
Based on the opinion in this thread, it seems like this album should probably have a 3.5 rating 
One thing I can say is: I miss Martin Lopez... ------------- "The mind is like a parachute: it doesn't work until it's opened"... Frank Zappa. |
Posted By: enteredwinter
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 11:43
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It's pretty simple - if you like Opeth, in general, you'll probably like Watershed. If you hate on them and seem to be on a quest to prove that they are not prog - not to name any names - then surprise surprise, the album won't sound good to you. I personally think it's one of their best albums. I like it better than anything they've done, actually, except for My Arms, Your Hearse and Still Life. But I think Watershed is almost equal to those in quality. I don't like the ending of Burden, or the entire Porcelain Heart song (except for the beautiful folky almost-falsetto part about 2/3 in), but aside from that, the album is comprised of some of the best music I've heard in a while. In particular, Heir Apparent, The Lotus Eater, and Hessian Peel rank up there with the best of Opeth's epics. ------------- 
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Posted By: Genesister
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 12:22
| If writing a pretentious review was your goal by the way, gg. I can understand you not liking it, but your compraisons to Nickelback (as someone else mentioned) just stripped any of the credibility you had, imo. |
Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 13:04
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Actually, the Nickelback comparison is strangely reasonable. It's laughable, but when you step back and look at some of Mikael's vocals... When he gets a bit throatty I can see the connection. Of course, he's much better, as is the music. But of course reviewing the album after one day is probably a poor idea. It's clear that he was bias against the band before the review, though, so as long as the bias isn't loosened a bit the review probably wouldn't be different if he listened a few more times. The album definitely isn't worth five stars so for the time being the ridiculous score evens out the average. ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph
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Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 14:34
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As disappointed as I feel about this record, I still can't help but like it a lot. ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 14:34
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I think it´s a definitve 4 star album. It is very good but I wouldn´t say it´s anywhere near 5 stars.
------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 14:47
| I've only listened to the two Myspace songs thus far, and the music is strange. Simpler than usual, I guess, but with a fresh, distinctively new flavour, quite unlike past Opeth or anything else I'm familiar with. This bodes very, very well indeed. |
Posted By: Baza
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 16:48
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I think that Cert1fied's review is a disgrace to this site, it's unbelievably biased, he heard it only once and wrote here (in the middle of listening to this album) that he is bored by it... this is not serious. I think that his review should be deleted and also that he should be removed from the collaborator position, because this review affects the credibily of this site and it's colloborators. And I'm not saying that because I'm insulted by his bad review and rating, I don't think it's a great album, I would give it 3 stars, but at least I came to this desicion after at least 10 spins. |
Posted By: *frinspar*
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 16:51
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I can "play" a lot of prog songs in my head from end-to-end. I remember so many things about so many bands and songs. And I was a metal kid. Grew up on metal. Which should lead you to believe I'd be in love with this band. But to this day I cannot remember anything done by Opeth as soon as I'm done hearing it. They've got the talent, but something about them is seriously lacking if I can't really recall a thing about their music once the echo dies away. I've listened to 'Watershed' several times now, and it's good. But again, it just doesn't stick. And I think it's high time Akerfeldt drops the hamburger vocals (hamburger vox = sounds like gargling meat ). It weakens what I think he's trying to achieve at this point with Opeth. They're trying so hard to be a new branch of progressive music, but they've got a serious anchor holding them back. In the end. I like the new album well enough, and I might finally find some bits I'll remember later. But I don't see that it's anywhere near the definition of 'masterpiece'. Fans will love it, but it's still not likely to win new ones over. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 17:09
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I think it's a very good album, but not on the same level of "Ghost reveries" or "Still Life"... At times it sounds simpler.. but my biggest problem is that even after repeted listens the songs still fail to leave a durable impression on my mind.... I can't see the same magic that I found in "Ghost of Perdition" the third time I heard it...
About the mentioned review, it's quite ridiculous to say things like "review should be deleted" or even more to say that the reviewer shall be demoted... Especially when the person asking this is a new member with no history of collaboration and the reviewer is a long-time member here with a vast amount of collaboration for this site...
I disagree with that review as I do with most of his prog-metal reviews. He can't see the prog in prog-metal, well I (we) can't do nothing about it but respect. I'd say that one listen is not enough to be able to write a fair review, but it's the reviewer's right in the end, isn't it? Of course saying that "the cd would end in Ebay like the rest of Opeth cds" doesn't really help the credibility of the review, but again, the right to express his opinion shouldn't be harmed by that statement, especially when it was done in the forum, not in the review itself.
------------- 
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 17:10
It's not a "disgrace", he's entitled to give it 1 star if he gives reasons. However, if he really only did listen to it once then it's not really a valid point of view and the fact that he said "I truly expect it to end up on eBay like the other Opeth albums I bought." makes me wonder (a) why he bothered to buy it and (b) why he bothered to review it when he'd already made his mind up about it. |
Posted By: Zitro
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 17:22
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I feel like it was totally biased from the beginning, made his mind up before reviewing, and tried to go the most negative he could. People gotta give prog albums more than a couple of listens. _claiming it's not prog: I've read that in almost all his prog metal reviews (dream theater's concept album not prog?) _writing 2 paragraphs over one note which I think fits the harmony. If I'm wrong, then Opeth is known for disharmonic writing. _saying it's not prog then complaining about certain complexities and unusual song structures (tho I admit is a bit disjointed in a couple of places), things that get better after several listens. I actually thought that the last album from the Flower Kings was a mess, but now it feels adequately coherent. EDIT: there are a few occasions where I really really disliked a prog album and didn't want to listen to it several times so that I could review it. I just abstained from giving a 1-star review. An example is Ayreon's "Into the Electric Castle" which I think is one of the dullest albums I have in my collection. |
Posted By: KeleCableII
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 18:15
| Why is everyone jumping on certif1ed's back for giving the album 1 star instead of the 30 people who are already calling it a prog masterpiece? Surely if you are all claiming reviewers need more than a couple listens to give an album 1 star, you need to listen to the album much more to claim it is worthy of the title "masterpiece." Yes, certif1ed's review may have been written too quickly and with bias, but there is no more bias in his review than the others. |
Posted By: Zitro
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 19:27
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Well, I think the point that most were making is that certif1ed is a collaborator. I am well aware of the over/under rating from non-collaborators on an album that just came out. Usually the ratings are higher at first. I remember Beyond Twilight's flawed opus having a 5-star average for quite a bit. I think Watershed would deserve a rating closer to My Arms Your Hearse, Still Life, or Blackwater Park. Something like 4.2 - 4.3 once the ratings even themselves out. |
Posted By: explodingjosh
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 19:35
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Just read the reviews and think for yourself. Stars mean nothing. ...I think Watershed is great, though, I would definitely recommend it to any music fan who can atleast tolerate metal elements ------------- 
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Posted By: agProgger
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 22:41
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Hi, I'm one of the people who gave it a five-star review, so I thought I'd "Watershed some light." I don't appreciate the generalizations about such reviews from some of the people, but moving on... GIVE THIS ALBUM TIME! I admit that this one took some time to get into. I was kind of getting bored of Ghost Reveries, though I really enjoyed it for a while, and Blackwater Park never hit me like it did some of the other fans, so I was hoping this one would fill in the hole. The first few times around, after track 3 ended and on throughout the rest of the album, there was one overwhelming thought going through my mind: DISJOINTED!!! After a few more listens, though, I found that the disjointedness was intentional. The main character seems to snap back and forth between moods, and the music conveys that perfectly. He goes from satanic to calm, calm to satanic, all in an instant. Having a blend of the two is what made Opeth famous, but the ingenious thing -- and the thing that probably turns people off the most at first -- is that they almost completely do away with transitions in some parts. It's an on/off switch. At first it seems like bad songwriting, but if music is meant to convey emotion, I can think of no better instance than this album, in that it not only conveys the emotion, but it conveys the mental instability that goes along with it. Case in point: the first bout of heaviness in Hessian Peel. Also, I had been listening to this album at roughly 2x a day since it came out before I wrote the review. I made sure I knew what I was talking about. I suppose that as a Tool fan, they've trained me to look pretty deep into the music beyond just the music: what is it trying to tell me? It's not simply a matter of notes for the sake of aesthetics. Looking at it that way, I can easily see this being a very pointless and lackluster album, especially to anyone not into metal. The feel of most of the album kind of makes me think of Sweeney Todd: light and kind of upbeat, but also very macabre. I meant to go see that movie, because that whole concept seems interesting to me. I will say, though, that if you're not a death metal fan, though, skip track 2. I have recently really started liking death metal just because of the general proficiency of the drummers (I am a drummer). Maybe as a result I'm "immune" to death metal, so to speak, because I actually really enjoy the growls now. I absolutely detest metalcore growls/yells, though. ------------- Friend of the honest; enemy of the arrogant and closed-minded. |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: June 10 2008 at 23:59
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I agree.
I'm looking at some of my fellow collab reviews (along with many of the non four stars), and they either look biased or they were made on the spot right after they got done listening to it for the first time. That is no way to review an album, I dont know how you Gods of music listening are able to somehow make a review of an album off one or two spins, but as a fact, there is no way to properly analyze an hour long album off that. I've had the album for almost two months now, and I still feel I cant make a solid review off what I've heard, though I admit I havent given the album a lot of attention, and tthis is just my personal way of going through an album, with lots of time, and lots of spins.
Bottom line is, I cant trust a review made after a couple of listens through, it's just stupid how this album just NEEDS to be given either A) A five star fanboy who dosenteven give the album a fair listen, and is just so excited he needs to give the album the highest rating possible, or B) Have some super harsh collab give it a one star review just cause he's tired of the fanboyism, and feel he needs to level the scale a bit more. Seriously, give the disc some time! ------------- 
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Posted By: Campbald
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 00:19
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It's funny how music is. You can listen to something and not really like it then boom, you finally get it and then you can't get enough. That's how it was with Opeth. I bought "Damnation" because I read Steve Wilson produced it. That is a wonderful CD, easily 5 stars. Then I bought Blackwater Park and thought how could Steve Wilson be involed with this horrible growling band. That was the end for me until I found Ghost Reveries in a used CD bin. It had such glowing reviews I decided to buy it. After my 2nd listening I got it. I now own all their CDs. Watershed is 5 stars and is definately a progression in artestry for the band. The interesting bands will always change on every CD. They still sound fresh. Who likes the Rolling Stones new CDs? They turned into a so so band after Mick Taylor left. Now they're like the Beach Boys, if you see the live please don't play the "new" stuff. I am a 55 year old grandfather who got hooked on Progressive Rock when I first heard Sgt. Pepper when I was 14. I feel lucky that I got to see Progressive Rock develope. ------------- Listen to it 
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 03:23
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Hey, I'm popular today!
Let me take each item directed at me in turn - I will try to answer in kind.
If you were rude to me, I will be rude back - fair's fair
Why thank you!
I like to think that I "get" music quite quickly.
I gave it 1 star because I think it's poor - very simple.
Just because you can't review an album quickly doesn't mean that nobody else can - I'm trained to review music quickly, and I've written about some hideously complex music after first hearing, so something as SIMPLE as Watershed posed no problems.
FYI, I listened to every minute of the album, rewinding several times where particular points of interest (or rather, stuff to write about in more depth) jumped out at me.
What's so funny?
 I explained WHY I thought that - you don't have to agree. And you don't have to mock either - I find that very rude.
Indeed - I often review on first hearing - my review of Kraftwerk's debut, Gentle Giants "Acquiring the Taste" and Fantomas "Suspended Animation", for example, were all done the moment I'd got the CD out of the packaging. THOSE are complex prog albums.
When I listen to Magma's " http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=3304 - 1001° Centigrades " and " http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=3306 - Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh " for the first time, I will write my review at the same time - it's how I like to work, as it keeps my thoughts fresh and my musical instincts on edge.
I gave Watershed 1 star because a) It's NOT prog, and b) I didn't like it.
I have made it clear time and time again that I do NOT hate Prog Metal - and many of the Prog Metal team will concur with this.
No it didn't.
Why would it strip me of credibility except in your eyes (and maybe the eyes of other die-hard Opeth fanboys)?
Your response makes no sense, as it is entirely a knee-jerk.
  The single worst thought-out reply I've ever read!!!
I think you're a disgrace to this site and unbelievably biased.
Why should I not state what I think about an album?
What has me being a collaborator got to do with anything?
What is so bad about my review?
As I said above, I am perfectly capable of making a rationale (and emotional) judgement about an album after a single spin - it's something I do.
Just because my opinion doesn't agree with yours, that doesn't make it a bad one.
Really?
Why?
Really?
How?
I would have given it more listens if there was any Prog in it.
I had not made up my mind before reviewing - rest assured on that. I NEVER do that.
I didn't try to "go the most negative" - it just turned out that way. I certainly wasn't as negative about previous Opeth albums.
Indeed - I'm searching for the "Prog" in Prog Metal, and am rarely finding it.
Please feel free to elucidate.
Yes - I put a LOT of thought into that, and listened VERY carefully - but it plain didn't work for me. If I think it's wrong, then I need to reason it out, not simply slam the band for it.
As I also said, YMMV.
Wow - I thought no-one would ever pick up on this!
See, that was a good response - while falling shy of actually asking questions, it REASONS and wonders why I may have reached the conclusions I did, instead of demanding my removal from this site - which ain't gonna happen, BTW.
The thing is, that the "complexities" are non-existent, and the song structures are not unusual.
- What "complexities" do you hear?
I understand the compositional process reasonably well, and have pointed out in my review how I think the structures are run-of-the-mill and predictable (I used that word a couple of times at least).
Seriously, I need enlightenment here, as I didn't pick up on any, and I like to think I listen pretty closely.
- What is so unusual about intro/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/multi-section instrumental?
- What is so unusual about quiet/loud/quiet/loud?
I welcome any reasoned discussion on my review - and will mercilessly rip apart any lame attacks.
Trust me, I haven't even warmed up yet.  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: mellors
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 03:48
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Define me your view of "prog?" |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 03:52
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Oh Flying Spaghettic Monster here we go again...
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 04:01
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I think you're review is valid, but you rail against it's supposed non-progressiveness at times, praise "Burden" for being typical, and dislike the anti-traditional melodic choices in "Hessian Peel." Also, you never came off as one who cared a lot about being "progressive" until now. It just seems like a lot of contradictions in there, Cert. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 04:07
Why do we even argue? -------------
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 04:34
Er... how long have you got?
Entire threads have been devoted to this subject - indeed, my many posts in them probably constitute an entire thread in themselves. Do a search and discover, or take a look at the technical definitions on the http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock - Wikipedia page - indeed, take a look at the first few paragraphs, which are more or less the same as I left them when I rewrote it (and there are teams of people behind the scenes with whom I've discussed these items at great length, so it's not just my work).
For now, I think we can leave it at a simple adjective - progressive music.
On a single topic, there's nothing progressive about the old song structure (for example) - it's perhaps the least progressive thing there is, and the whole thing that progressive music writers try to break away from. Form is core to Progressive music.
Hmm, not sure where I got the reputation for not caring about being progressive - almost every review I write concentrates on the Progressive aspects of the music, and this one is no different.
I liked "Burden", but never said it was progressive - indeed, I think I stated that it is "typical".
Entirely consistent and without contradiction, I feel.
There is only one "Anti-traditional melodic choice" in "Hessian Peel" - and it screams wrong note at me, simply because it is the ONLY wrong note. It is not "Anti-traditional" - if Opeth were going for that approach, then there would have been more or possibly different choices - but instead, it was crowbarred into the riff and repeated, as if repeating it would make it sound better (it doesn't).
I stated my reasoning in the review - and also that others may not agree with me. I don't understand why this is such a big deal - the tune and arrangement were entirely "traditional", but that note feels wrong - it's not progressive to "do it wrong" - any muppet can do that.
It's not an "Accidental" as someone else tried to claim - an accidental is a "wrong" note that resolves to the "right" one.
Because it's fun?
I'm not arguing, I'm enjoying intense and mildly warmed-up debate.
 I'd really like someone to be able to state why this album is so Progressive - but obviously, I'll have a question or two...  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 04:36
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It's fun indeed. Hehe.
-------------
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Posted By: oddentity
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 04:43
Your pre-listening comment on this thread that you expect your copy of Watershed to end up on ebay rather shows you up, I'm afraid.
I agree with those who think that your review was unprofessional. To write such a long review outlining how much you hate the album so much shows what a big grudge you hold towards this band.
If I don't like a band, then I just don't listen to them. To actively listen to their music for the purpose of writing a long scathing review strikes me as morbid.
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Posted By: Demonoid
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 05:09
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^ Agreed. Certainly doesn't seem like a neutral review. Hey, i dislike quite a few rap artists. Wanna see me write 1 star reviews about them? A perfect description about the artist/album...rite? Yup, I'm goona say i hate the artist and not take into account whether others will like it or not. A perfectly fine review I'm entitled to since it's my freedom and opinion. Get the point? |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 05:24
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To be fair, writing long decent reviews on an album you dislike lends, IMHO, more credibility to the reviewer. Certified's reviews are generally factually accurate whether one agrees or not with his/her sentiments.
Debates are healthy  . It is good to see a more balanced rating total not that I wish Watershed a poor outcome because I do not know it.------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: oddentity
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 06:05
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One could easily pull apart one of the iconic progressive releases, such as Wish You Were Here or Close to the Edge, in the way that Certified has done with Watershed, but what does it really mean? " Wish You Were Here just plods along with its verse/chorus structures and occasional instrumental passages. The tape effects are gimmicky, the experimentalism is all surface, and its all very predictable".
For some that would be a perfectly valid review, but for those who can tune into the magic of Pink Floyd they would just laugh at it. It is pretty evident that Certified isn't able to tune into the magic of Opeth. That in itself isn't a crime - no band can please everybody. But he seems to lack the maturity to realize that just because he can't tune into the magic of a band, it doesn't automatically mean that the band is crap.
I'm amazed that he is considered to be an "official" reviewer, to be honest.
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Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 06:28
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Righto. I'm not interested in dissecting Certif1ed's review, as he has a perfect right to it. However, I think Watershed is progressive rock because: - it uses some non-conventional time signatures and sequences - songs 'develop' rather than simply returning to their original simple motifs - the use of instruments is inspired by 'classical' prog - the band has been influenced by prog musicians from KC to Camel - the band demonstrates technical virtuosity in comparison to standard rock musicians - some of the songs demonstrate a quirky humour characteristic of prog - the lyrical subjects are standard prog territory - the album is more than a collection of songs: care has been taken in song selection and placement. None of these things, on their own, qualify any album as 'prog'. However, wouldn't most listeners suspect they were listening to something graced by progressive rock sensibilities? It's really hard for me to deny what my ears are hearing. Now I don't think 'Watershed' is the best example of OPETH's work - I gave it three stars - but I do believe reviews ought to be in the context of the BAND being reviewed and the GENRE the album sits within. If 'Watershed' is truly a one-star album, then we'd better be adding negative stars to the site! Finally, I will criticise Cert's review for one point: I don't think reviews aren't the place to argue that an album/band is 'not prog' (particularly not when making such a definitive statement). We all have such different definitions of 'prog' that unless the reviewer is very clear what his/her definition is, there is no context for the reader to judge the 'this is not prog' statement. In particular some reviewers see prog as 'anything progressive/original' and others as 'sounds like the 70s'. These two are usually mutually exclusive, and it's often not clear which one the reviewer means. It's also provocative, since experts on the genre have agreed to the band's addition. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 06:48
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1 star reviews by collabs for albums which are generally appreciated/enjoyed by most of the other collabs have a long history ... I used to fight them, but today I even enjoy reading them. The amazing thing is that they don't hurt the album *at all* ... if anything they backfire on the reviewer and make the typical visitor (who *probably* disagrees strongly with the review) take their other reviews with a *huge* grain of salt. BTW: In this particular case I agree with most of the facts which Certif1ed mentions about Watershed ... I simply don't hold them against the band, rather the reverse. For example, I hear much of Camel in Watershed, and I think that's a good thing. Of course one *could* say that how Akerfeldt achieves this is only a shallow copy of that classic band's style. It's really only two opposing opinions/standpoints. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: coleio
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 07:11
Countless times though, people have asked him to stop reviewing prog-metal, because he just doesn't 'get it'. It's as bad as the fan-boys giving it 5 stars, but the other way around. The hater giving it 1 star. Dreadful review, the analogies were dreadful. Nickelback? Cradle of Filth? Dimmu Borgir? No they sound like none of them. I can't even be bothered to go on. Awful reviewer. ------------- Eat heartily at breakfast, for tonight, we dine in Hell!! |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 07:20
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Stop ganging up on Certified and just stop reading him instead. You don't get to vote down which people have official reviewer status. Anyone can give an entire genre of albums one star of each if they sit down and take the time to write meaningful reviews for each album and absolutely NO-ONE cares if it offends a few touchy, possessive prog fans on the internet. ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 08:04
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We care a lot!
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 10:58
Fair enough, hate was the wrong word to use anyway, but I've never seen you mention any band/album/song from prog metal that you do like and because of this the question of why you bothered buying Watershed stands. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Paper Champion
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 11:20
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To all appearance, high ratings are quite fair, as the album is the most progressive thing Opeth have ever done. Now lots of prog fans (in spite of Metal/Death Metal fans)can discover this great band. "Watershed" is Opeth's best album to date and one of the most cohesive and progressive releases of 2008, IMHO. Listen to it carefully, and don't do justice only after 2 or 3 spins. |
Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 11:42
we are not still going on about what certified wrote in that review ? seems to me to be a waist of time even worrying about it, Certified is entitled to a point of view thats what makes this site great we all are entitled to a point of view ..... how about the next person to type something start with something fresh ? 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 12:21
Actually I don't think that it's very progressive in the true sense of the word. I've listened to it *many* times, and while I think that it's a step forward for Opeth because they broadened their style a little bit and gave the keyboards more room (hey, there's even female vocals!), the music itself is a combination of what they did before and a stronger orientation towards emulating some of the classic 70s prog bands (Camel most of all). "Regressive" would be more appropriate a label - the difference between me and Certif1ed is that I don't see this as a flaw. A band IMO don't has to constantly re-invent themselves and try to come up with totally innovative stuff. Sometimes it's better to simply refine your style and write good songs. Currently I'd give the album 4 stars - 4.5 really, but some minor glitches prevent me from rounding up. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 12:43
I've listened to it more than a couple of times. It's true, it was written with fewer listens than my average for Opeth, but I already feel like I know the disc. When I bought Ghost Reveries, when I listened to it the first few times, I knew that I wasn't acquainted enough with the album to form an opinion on it, but with Watershed after only a few listens I knew the songs. It just doesn't seem as complex in the finer areas of songwriting. I'm sure there will be little things I missed or have yet to cherish, but I almost know when I'm going to absolutely love an album.
I can understand where some of the reviews are coming from, but you're right about most of that. ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 12:57
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Hmm, apparently you can buy some Opeth from the Burning Shed, but not Watershed.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 13:27
Hey everybody: Watershed has an average rating of over 4. Cert's review was a drop in the ocean so stop sh*tting yourselves about it. he has the right to review the album in whatever way he wants as long as he actually reviews it, which he did. so shut the f**k up! ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 13:29
No, let's argue about it!  |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 13:35
OK! Cert obviously dos not like Mikael Akerfeldt. Because he does not praise Mikael Akerfeldt constantly, I can only assume he's a xenophobic Briton who hates everything that ever came out of Sweden. Not only that, be he has a general malcontent for all things Scandinavian, including Pain of Salvation, Ingmar Bergman, and Ricola. Based on this undeniable fact, I vote he be kicked out of Prog Archives and forced to wear a sign around his neck saying The Daily Mail is the word of God. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 13:37
nice |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 16:22
Thank you for some degree of understanding.
To clear up any confusion I wasnt trying to call out anyone, not Cert, nor Mo. -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 17:05
daz because Burning Shed has a distribution deal with Peaceville, not Roadrunner ------------- What? |
Posted By: KeleCableII
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 17:19
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Hey certif1ed, I'd be interested in why you think a lot of prog metal isn't really prog, and what prog metal bands you consider to be true prog. I feel like a lot of prog metal is pretty derivative and all that prog, so I'd be interested in your views on the matter. We can stop this attacking and perhaps try to have a more serious discussion... |
Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 17:46
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^Furthermore, why does it matter if it's "progressive" or not? A good album is a good album, a bad album is a bad album. And if it's on here, it must be "progressive" to some extent. I don't think it's up to the reviewer to decide whether it's "progressive" or not, or more specifically to rate the album by how "progressive" it is. There is more to music than that. I think to listen to music solely or largely because it is housed under the term "progressive" is absurd. I listen to music for so many other reasons and listened to a lot of the bands on here before I realized that they could be considered "progressive ______." The term can be superficial and/or elitist. It can even cause people who like the music, who are suppsedly the "open minded" ones to be more insular than those who listen to the radio. ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph
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Posted By: explodingjosh
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 17:51
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anyone noticed 'transend''s review? I hate reading reviews like that. -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 19:21
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^ well, it put a smile on my face. I know what I like, and such reviews are a very good indication that I'm right. Only really good artists get bashed like that ... I'm sure that back in the 70s there were similar reviews of extreme bands like Magma (no, I'm not comparing Opeth to Magma folks - in case you were wondering). It's the old "you call that music?" routine ... it's so childish and immature that you just can't take seriously.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 19:22
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9 year old trying to evoke Satan
with a piece of sandpaper in his mouth ../Collaborators.asp?id=2216 - transend ------------- 
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Posted By: agProgger
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 21:08
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I'm new (well, sort of -- I joined a while back, made a few posts and then stopped), so I was wondering what everyone's opinion of my very extensive review was. Also, I mentioned something earlier that no one responded to, and I was wondering if anyone else noticed it as well: the jarring transitions seem intentional, which conveys the whole feeling of being emotionally bipolar. It makes the main character seem very insane, and although it threw me off at first, I actually find it now to be a centerpiece attraction of the album. As for Cert, I think the statistics on his profile speak for themselves, with tech/extreme coming in at an average of 2.30. As for his comments on here, I won't dignify them with a response, because I can sense arrogance in an instant, and I want no part in such a discussion (when there is arrogance, there is no real discussion). Such people in my view need a few good slaps to teach them a lesson in humility. ------------- Friend of the honest; enemy of the arrogant and closed-minded. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 22:19
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^ ouch, why get personal? At least stick to the fact that you dislike his point of view and/or how he expresses it rather than advice for his parents, it only helps to elicit sympathy for Cert, who I like very much and who has been a good, informed and honest sparring partner |
Posted By: agProgger
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 22:24
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I just get turned off very quickly by arrogance on the net, because I've had too many arguments and discussions with people of the sort, and they lead nowhere. Such people need a lesson in humility and what the rest of us consider productive discussion. I'll edit it to be less personal, though.
------------- Friend of the honest; enemy of the arrogant and closed-minded. |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 22:33
Well...this is a progressive rock site. For purposes of this site it should be taken into consideration. Especially since the citeria this site uses for its reviews (masterpiece of PROGRESSIVE music...in a PROG collection)
If we are talking in general, then I agree with you. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: monolith
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 23:18
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I think too many people get prog rock and prog metal mixed up.Opeth is definately a metal band.
Although some of their ideas are progressive (to say the least), I would consider them a metal band. I think their best albums are Blackwater Park and Ghost Reveries. However some of the songs on these two albums get a bit tedious. If the new cd is as good as those, I would get it. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: June 11 2008 at 23:41
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Damn! This is something else... We're now discussing one review as if that review (or any review for that matter) was really important in the big scheme of things... It's one guy's opinion! Whether he's right or wrong, knows a lot or knows sh*t, hates the music or loves it, it's one guy's review. Suddenly we are giving a review much more importance than it really has... Do you think that because of that review Akerfeldt will become depressed and suddenly stop making music? Do you think it makes the album any good, if you think it is (I think so) or any bad if you think the albus is bad? Does it really matter THAT much to you?
Hell, the reviewer in question has written many reviews that I disagree 200% with... and you know what... do you think I suddenly sold all my cds because of his negative reviews? I still like the music? The same goes opposite: do you think i love everything he gives 5 stars to? Of course not. The same with anybody's reviews! They're just opinions.
If everyone is so concerned about that review, is because for some it may say some uncomfortable truths... maybe some of you started to doubt that OPETH is really that glorious because of that review... don't let that insecurity about your tastes make you denounce a single review... If you like OPETH, (like I do), read reviews, agree or disagree, and, well, go listen to the album! Or sell it! But because YOU like it or dislike it!
Damn is so ridiculous.... Writing 1-star reviews of albums everybody praises to the heavens is dangerous, believe me I know. -------------
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Posted By: agProgger
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 00:06
If you were including me in that, my short blurb about the guy was mostly in response to what he said here on the thread, not his review, though I found his review somewhat ridiculous. Maybe I just need some time between having played World of Warcraft for a month. I can honestly say that I became much more jaded against idiots who think they're the coolest thing ever in that month than probably the rest of my life combined. ------------- Friend of the honest; enemy of the arrogant and closed-minded. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 02:51
Hey, MY reviews are IMPORTANT - I'm a SPECIAL COLLABORATOR / HONORARY COLLABORATOR, so that proves it.
The statistics merely state that the albums I've heard so far have not agreed with me in those genres - nothing else.
You have, ironically, dignified my comments with a response with these words. Thanks - you underline my own opinion of myself that I am, in fact, the best.
That's not arrogance, just fact. 
Heard it all done a hundred times by other bands - when the effect works, it's good.
Here, it sounds lame, and drags the album down quality-wise - to me.
YMMV.
That's still very personal - and arrogant. I think you should be taught a lesson in humility...
Much wisdom here, T - but you know me, I like a bit of danger every now and again.
Damn.
Caught.
Sensible idea - but would take a new thread.
I do try to reason this out in my reviews - and I do give credit for where I hear Prog (I am carefully using this neutral term so you know I'm not getting mixed up with Prog Rock) - but if it's not clear, then a thread on Prog in Prog Metal would be a useful discussion.
Finally (for this post!), I simply do not hear Watershed as a Prog album in any way, shape or form - it's so run-of-the mill and like so many other rock/metal albums I've heard recently that it's not funny. I feel like the little boy in the crowd shouting "The King's got no clothes on!!!".
I'm currently listening to Coldplay's new album on MySpace - and it's more progressive.
People have picked me up on the grounds of credibility, yet it is the large number of "Masterpiece of Progressive Music" ratings that damage this site's credibility, IMO, not a 1-star rating from a Collaborator.
Imagine a dyed-in-the-wool proghead coming to this site, seeing a vast swathe of 5-star Masterpiece ratings for this album - and there is a warning when you select this, so really, you should think about this and decide whether it's a Masterpiece of Progressive Music or whether you just like it a lot - there IS a difference, and I have rated wonderful albums down simply because they're not Prog.
On this subject, I'm just a forum member like anyone else - I logged on one day and all of a sudden I had all these labels on my avatar - nice, but I didn't ask for it or expect it, and would not cry if they were taken away.
I'm aware that it gives me a high profile, and that large targets are dead easy for people to take pot-shots at, but this simply means that my opinion obviously means something to those taking them - and for that, I'm grateful, because reactions from others are what keep me thinking in fresh directions.
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 03:16
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I do like your reasoning, Certif!ed, but there's still a big black hole in there you're not addressing. 'Not prog' is, according to you - what? Do you mean 'this album doesn't incorporate the things we associate with 70's prog rock', or 'this album shows no sign of progressing beyond accepted musical boundaries'? Or by calling it 'run-of-the-mill' should I take it you subscribe to some form of the latter definition? If we could hear that loud and clear it would really help put your review in context. A dyed-in-the-wool proghead coming to this site might well understand that according to one of those definitions 'Watershed' is prog, but according to the other it is not. So ... |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 03:18
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 03:33
It's just not Prog. It doesn't matter which definition you use (and there are plenty all over the internet) - this has nothing to do with my personal definitions. I'm not sure how clear I can make it - it's well enough understood.
There are no progressive elements in this album - sure, some of the songs are long, and there's a Mellotron, but that's it.
One review stated that one song is Prog because it starts with an acoustic guitar... I mean, there are definitions of Prog, and there's jibberish.
If you're going to ask me this question, I might just as well turn it around with another question - why aren't Coldplay or Cradle of Filth Prog?
The answers, I suspect, will be blind prejudice. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 03:37
I did answer your challenge earlier in this thread, but you appear to have overlooked it:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 03:42
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^ I think that you simply set the standard *way* too high. As I see it, only about 10% of all the albums in the archives would fall within your definitions. For the typical music enthusiast a rock piece in 7/4 with Mellotron is prog. That doesn't mean that it can compete with one of Genesis' masterpieces, but still it's sufficiently different from mainstream rock to merit that label. All music magazines describe Opeth as a prog band. The German magazine Eclipsed is usually quite reluctant when it comes to the more extreme styles of metal, but even they recently featured a two page article and interview with Mikael Akerfeldt. These things will not convince you to change your mind - I'm just saying that most people use an entirely different definition of "prog" than you do. And as you said in the other thread: Defining "prog" is much more difficult than defining "table". Maybe one way of uniting the different attempts of definition is to introduce levels of progressiveness - that way you could perhaps grudgingly admit that Opeth are prog, albeit on a much lower level than for example Genesis. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 03:44
| I can't answer your question regarding Coldplay or Cradle of Filth, as I've not really listened to either. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 03:47
A.C.T. - Last Epic (actually, having heard it a few times since, I think I was probably being a bit generous).
Death - Scream Bloody Gore (OK, I admit, I was having fun with that one - but it IS progressive in the literal sense of the word, if not so much in musical content).
In short, I'd need to review a Progressive Metal album that had Progressive music on it, and, many times bitten, er... many times plus one shy...
Yes there is - Prog is short for Progressive and is used to prefix -Rock and -Metal (not to mention Jazz, Trance and a number of other Progressive genres). It means the same in all cases.
I do not make definitions up.
It's not just me - look further up this very thread. And that is EXACTLY the impression I have. What is so radical about this album? Acoustic guitar intros?
My "strategy" as you call it (and until now I had never considered) seems perfectly legitimate - if it's not Prog it can't be a masterpiece of Prog, can it?
Not caring about people that come to this site shows me where your heart is at - and it's misleading to brand stuff as something it is not.
It's clear that I'm now being accused of making stuff up and holding my own opinions.
Whatever.
YOU decide, and I'll keep listening and reviewing.
You're all different
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 03:57
Thanks - I did overlook it!
So does "Golden Brown" by the Strangers and "Take Five" by Dave Brubek.
Actually, one of my issues with this album is that this is not the case - there is next to no development.
Hmm - a Mellotron, an ARP and a Hammond?
Ever heard the Small Faces?
So were the Sex Pistols.
Really?
I must've missed that - and I did listen very hard, all the way through - no cheating or skipping stuff.
Very tentative and extgremely subjective.
What is this "standard prog" of which you speak?
Sounds like a collection of songs to me.
I expect ABBA were careful about song placement too, as was Frank Sinatra, when he compiled "Wee Small Hours" - widely regarded as the very first concept album.
Nor do they together.
Progressive music is progressive. SImple.
It is not standard rock - and Watershed is so similar to hundreds of rock songs I've listened to recently that it doesn't stand out from the pack in any way - apart from, maybe, the note I wondered about at length.
The reviews are the very place to do that, as the Rating system shows clearly.
Yes, but not every band seen as Progressive consistently releases Prog albums - for example, Yes, ELP, Genesis - so the experts credibility is not questioned for a moment.
It's provocative, because it's provoked discussion, which is a GOOD thing.
 ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 04:05
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^ No, the review rating guidelines say absolutely nothing about 'not prog'. In fact, given that we have a 'prog related' category, it seems to me clear we have to rate some albums differently - or end up with the maximum rating available for prog-related albums as a 3. And I don't agree that even if an album has those things I listed all together (I accept you dispute some of them in the case of Watershed) it still might not be prog. After all, the list was lifted from the definition of prog offered on this site. To be clear: are you arguing that the definition of prog offered on this site is NOT correct, but on the other hand insisting that we ought to abide by the LITERAL meaning of the rating guidelines? |
Posted By: oddentity
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 04:50
Please give some examples of rock songs that resemble the tunes in Watershed. I want to hear them!
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 05:10
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Vince
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 13:51
Did I mention I miss Martin Lopez?... ------------- "The mind is like a parachute: it doesn't work until it's opened"... Frank Zappa. |
Posted By: Demonoid
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 15:20
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Well from your(certif1ed's) profile- Dream Theater - Images And Words - 3 stars Pain Of Salvation - Remedy Lane - 3 stars Opeth - Blackwater Park - 2 stars Queensryche - Operation: Mindcrime - 2 stars Dream Theater - Scenes From A Memory Metropolis Part II - 2 stars All these albums are top-notch....definitely 4 stars in my book. I'm not trying to attack you or something...just that some of your reasoning seems absurd. I mean, how is being influenced by other artists but creating a new sound bad in anyway? Also, even I'd like to know your definition of prog, as very often you mention in these reviews that they are not progressive.
Well, we are on a discussion board rite....seems fine with me as long as its civil and productive. Any uncivilized post can be moderated. |
Posted By: KeleCableII
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 15:45
In his defense, as someone who doesn't mind prog metal, the only album on that list I would give 4+ stars is Remedy Lane (I haven't gotten into Blackwater Park so I'll withhold judgment there). |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: June 12 2008 at 15:55
| Watershed is significantly below Blackwater Park and Ghost Reveries. 3 or 3.5 stars from me. |