Progressive Metal Pioneers?
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Topic: Progressive Metal Pioneers?
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Subject: Progressive Metal Pioneers?
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 17:03
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I just stopped over to the Progressive Nation website, which is an excellent idea, but I was a bit taken back by Dream Theater being called Progressive Metal Pioneers. Not that they don't play a huge part in this genre, but I always felt Progressive Metal had roots in the mid-70's to early 80's.
Thoughts? Is this statement a marketing tool?
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Replies:
Posted By: Modrigue
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 17:06
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To me Prog Metal began more with Rush...
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqf2srRfppHAslEmHBn8QP6d_eoanh0eW" rel="nofollow - My compositions |
Posted By: FranMuzak
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 17:20
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I'd say that some Metal/Hard rock bands from the 70's and few from early 80's started to show a Prog approach in many songs, like Led Zeppelin, Iron maiden and others, but for me the closer definition of Prog metal pioneers belong to bands like Queensryche and Fates Warning. |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 17:21
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I think Dream Theater helped put a label on it... but i think that many other bands had been toying with the idea more during the late 70s early 80s. Rush indeed with albums like 2112. Others had messed around with this idea as well. Queensrych with operation mindcrime, Some of Iron Maiden's classic works like Caught Somewhere in Time and Seventh Son, even Helloween with albums like Keeper of the Seven Keys all toyed with mixing metal into prog. However, few (if any) of those bands really created anything progressive out of the mix. Dream Theater may have been the first (in the public eye anyways) to do that. Others likely have a wildly differing opinion... but that's how I see it. |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 17:24
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Fates Warning and Queensryche were both early prog-metal bands. A lot of people don't consider Rush metal. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 17:28
Nor do I, but I think they definitely had influence on a number of heavy bands that would later come out. But I do know a lot of people who consider them full on metal and shun them for it... I just cock my head and give them a drooling-deer-in-headlights-stare. |
sinkadotentree wrote:Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 17:29
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King Crimson pre-dates Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, and even Rush with the development of prog metal
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 17:33
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I'd have to give it to Maiden for bringing together progmetal elements under one roof however... Voivod anyone? |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 17:36
Red was a breakthrough in a progressive sense, but to credit Crimson with developing progmetal is a stretch... heavy elements in rock music don't make you metal |
Posted By: FranMuzak
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 17:43
Exactly! There are a lot of Heavy Prog bands that use heavy or even some metal elements like Porcupine Tree lately, but i woud never call them Prog Metal.
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Posted By: JROCHA
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 18:32
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Rush for me,from Caress of Steel through Hemispheres would be considered some of the first Prog Metal/heavy albums. But thats just what i think
------------- Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights... |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 18:41
I don't think of Rush as metal as all.But I think they influenced quite a few prog metal musicians.
When I think of prog metal pioneers,bands like Iron Maiden,Queensryche and Fates Warning come to mind.I am not saying IM or even Queensryche are prog metal,just that they helped to lay the groundwork. -------------  |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 18:50
I agree completely about KC. Not a metal band but some songs had serious Prog Metal elements well before it was a band focus. -------------
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 18:52
I would consider I&W by Dream Theater more Progressive Rock than Prog Metal. I think they somewhere along the way decided to really embrace the Prog Metal genre. -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 19:40
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Taking the pioneers of Prog Metal back into the 70s and early 80s is stretching things a little to far, certainly those bands heavily influenced Prog Metal, but they influenced lots of other flavours of metal too - they were the ancestors of PM, but not it's pioneers. I think it is tenuous to take Prog Metal any further back than the mid 80s when a new breed of metal bands were emerging that looked beyond "just metal"
I'd put Savatage in there somewhere. Not sure where though, but before DT at least, with Gutter Ballet and Hall of The Mountain King being embryonic (Symphonic) Prog Metal.
Another pioneer band that has influenced a lot of european Prog Metal is Celtic Frost whose use of experimentation, classical instrumentation and operatic vocals opened up the world of extreme metal. ------------- What? |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 19:58
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don't know much about prog metal but I suppose it must be Rush...
If not it must be Led or Sabbath or Purple, metal pioneers, not saying they're metal in fact I hate saying those bands are metal. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 20:02
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Interesting that no one has mentioned Metallica. In my mind, they are kind of the missing link between Rush and Dream Theater. I do agree with other bands mentioned such as Savatage, Queensryche, and Fates Warning as being some of the first forms of prog metal.
I think that if one of the Bald Angels were here they might throw in High Tide as one of the first prog metal bands. ------------- 
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Posted By: akiko
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 20:30
Hmmm, maybe we should have a new sub-category here in PA: Proto prog metal 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 20:47
^ how about proto prog jazz as well  Brubeck anyone?... don't tell me he wouldn't fit here. Name a prog fan that doesn't enjoy Time Out for example... on it's merits at least.. overexposure being another matter. Not to mention it's influence on popular music.. and prog. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 20:52
I have never heard that tune. Actually the only Brubeck I know is Take 5. -------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 20:54
I was going to say the same thing. Overexposure??? I don't believe that I have ever been exposed to it. -------------
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 20:57
OMG! Go here http://www.mp3.com/albums/103834/summary.html and check out the song Blue Rondo A La Turk. That time sing and style sounds like something we've all heard more than once by different Prog bands. -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 21:07
Time out is the album the song Take Five is from.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Out_%28album%29 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Out_(album) every prog fan... music fan ... should have that album. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 21:20
Blue Rondo A La Turk should be familiar to all of us, though some might not have heard the Brubeck version. Emerson and the Nice covered it as 'Rondo' on both studio and live albums.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 21:26
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^ in 4/4 time not 9/8 though.. ELP did cover it as well... for years in concert up through the BSS tour.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 21:45
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I have definitely heard the Nice and ELP play Rondo. -------------
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Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 22:09
My thoughts exactly ------------- |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 22:20
missed this earlier... that has been a criticism of the album.... you all are prog fans... you know the drill... an album that is unknown or underground is somehow a bit greater than normal knowing that you.. and your buddies know about it .. yet when an album hits the 'big time' an album can sometimes lose something when you realize that everyone and their dog sees the brilliance of it. As if the truly great albums.. by their nature.. can only be known by the true fans. not to mention... just sit back and watch commericials on TV.. you'd be surprised (or perhaps not if you have already noticed) just how often songs from that album are used in commericals. It was an album that transcended jazz.. became more than just a jazz album. this article says it well....
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
The Dave Brubeck QuartetPosted By: verslibre
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 22:46
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Rush isn't prog-metal, but the first side of 2112 is the first spark, IMO. And check out Yngwie's second, third and fourth Rising Force albums (Marching Out, Trilogy, Odyssey), with the great Jens Johansson on keyboards, for some solid proto-prog-metal riffage. All predate WDaDU, too. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: EvyE
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 23:04
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Rush is like a pioneer hub with spokes of influence shooting off in all different directions. I find it hard to imagine progressive metal without traces of Rush DNA. La Villa Strangiato merits that on it's own. (Off Topic: Has anyone here tried that weird contest for front row seats at http://www.rush.com/ - The first two Alcatraz Albums no 'Parole for Rock 'n' Roll' & 'Disturbing the Peace' are at the top of my list. I used to hang out with a bunch of bands during those years and I remember Alcatraz and Stanley What I am saying it wasn't any one style of music or band at the genesis of progressive metal it was a primordial soup of techniques coming together with a need for speed. It seems to me at least on the guitar level that when these elements finally came together it gave birth to many of the early shredders who later evolved into progressive metal guitarists. One of the things that makes the two Alcatraz albums standout in the evolution of Progressive Metal is both Yngwie and Vai both magnaminous shredders during that time were forced to back the band instead of fronting it and that dynamic in my opinion played a big part in the genesis of progressive metal. Guitarists who were paying attention to what happend on those two albums suddenly had a 5000 foot view.
Tracing out all of the roots would be like an episode of Lost, and that’s just it. I was just listening to Echoes of Eternity’s debut album and I swear the second song on the album is a waltz. Of course there is the flip-side of the coin. What I consider progressive music is not someone else’s. It’s all a matter of opinion. |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: April 03 2008 at 23:06
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Well, King Crimson, Deep Purple, and Rush were probably the biggest influences of the 70s, along with Rainbow to an extent. For the 80s, I'd say Voivod, Celtic Frost, Metallica (Cliff Burton introduced a number of jazz and classical influences into the band), Iron Maiden, Queensryche, Crimson Glory, and Watchtower. Also, let us not forget the man who brought Alice Cooper theatricality and (along with Celtic Frost) atmosphere to extreme metal: King Diamond  GRANDMAAAAAAAAAAA! |
Posted By: unclemeat69
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 01:30
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KC ofcourse was pretty much prog-'anything'. I think Mercyful Fate
could be seen as protoprog metal, considering their very complex
compositional style
------------- Follow your bliss |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 01:40
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The Progtologist said what I was going to say more or less and said it better that said I think one could say Dream Theater at the very least expanded a lot on the prog metal style ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 02:53
Exactly. Prog Metal started in the mid to late 1980s ... with Queensryche, Fates Warning and Dream Theater as the key bands of the "core" PM movements, and a few experimental, more extreme bands like Voivod and Watchtower. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 04:11
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It's always hard to mention pioneers of a genre. You name Band X, and then you're stuck with " Yeah, but what about the influences of Band X? Aren't those the TRUE pioneers?" And suddenly you find yourself stuck with a downwards spiral ending somewhere in the 50's ^^ Those are the few I come to think of as well, Mike. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/LinusW88" rel="nofollow - Blargh |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 08:19
When I think of a pioneer, I think of someone blazing the trail or creating something not done before. The style was well under way when the bands you mentioned came into prominence. Other bands mentioned like KC, Deep Purple, Rush, even Led Zeppelin and early Metallica were molding some of their music in the Prog Metal vein. Again, this does not take away the importance of the bands you mentioned, but they drew their ideas from concepts already available by more popular bands. For this reason, I wouldn't call them pioneers.
One thing to keep in mind, metal has a definite very heavy sound. Technology in the 80's provided tools/effects for metal to gain that unique sound. The style was in place already. The new guys just capitalized on it though adopting those concepts by bands they admired.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 09:01
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^ I know what you're getting at ... but I don't agree. Modern Metal was born in the 80s, and while many bands in the 70s may have used a lot of distortion, the elements which define Modern Metal weren't used back then. If anything, the NWOBHM pioneered Modern Metal ... and Prog Metal was the result of the combined influences of (heavy) Classic Prog and NWOBHM.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 10:33
Exactly. It's pretty obvious to me that Elvis was the originator of prog metal (or was it Robert Johnson?) For myself though, it was Metallica that set the stage for my interest in prog metal (and prog in general, specifically with the And Justice For All album), along with Rush. And I think those two can be pointed to as the most noticeable influences on DT. Just my opinion of course, as I'm not a big prog metal, or DT for that matter, fan. In the mid 80's, I was in to many of the metal bands of that time, like Maiden, Sabbath (Mob Rules was a great metal album), Ozzy, Queensryche, Metallica, etc. But I also liked Zeppelin and other "classic" rock bands. So I do have some background in metal I suppose. In any case, I enjoy reading what the REAL metal affectionadoes have to say about the subject, as it points me to bands I've not heard or heard of before. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 12:00
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I think the bands that were beginnig to play definitive prog metal, and therefore be its pioneeres were Metallica, Iron Maiden, Queensryche and Fates Warning. None of which can be considered full on prog metqal bands in the mid 80's but certainly held a lot of the ingrediants to be prog. In the cse of Fates Warning and Queensryche, they became full prog metal (inFW's case, befor he end of the 80's). There are other bands, like Watchtower, that can be put in this group, but these four are the real pioneeres IMO. However, I think its fair to say that Dream Theater were very much at the forfront of the movement, leading prog metal into being a genre all of its own. Sieges Even and Threshold were doing the same on this side of the Atlantic, though with nowhere near as much success. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 12:07
| My 2 cents, only because I've been a DT fan since 1992 - when "Images & Words" came out, I believed that I was listening to something really new. It was a sound that I had not encountered before - early descriptors were a marriage of Yes and Metallica, and being a huge fan of both bands I was instantly captivated. Stuff like "Metropolis", "Under a Glass Moon", and "Learning to Live"...that was really a new approach in the early 90s. The obvious influences were there (Rush, Maiden, etc.) and certainly those bands paved a road, but I have no problem giving Dream Theater the moniker of PM pioneer - I think they certainly were charting a new course at that time. |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 12:21
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ok, there are a lot of thought just being tossed around. Allow me to order them. Rush was a very big influence on prog metal, although they were not metal (they were a hard rock band, for Christ sake!) Sabbath, Led, Iron and some others alike helped the genre because they were big influences to. Fates Warning and Queensrÿche are probably the pioneers on the genre and were also a big influence on bands to come. Dream Theater is the big name of the genre, dragged a lot of attention to it and helped to consolidate it. Images and Words is, to prog metal, the same thing In the Court of the Crimson King was for progressive rock: it putted together all the elements that came before it, added some more and drew a clear line dividing what is and what is not prog metal. They are also the most influential band of the genre, being responsible for hundreds of "dt clones" -------------   
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 12:37
Well said CCVP ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 12:40
The truth about DT is somewhere in the middle, as they were not the first, but Images and Words was an album that really shook the prog-metal scene in 1992. Dozens of bands were influenced by this album only. They also probably changed the way prog-metal tracks were composed after I&W... |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 12:47
thanks!   -------------
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Posted By: wilbur44
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 12:49
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I might be pushing this a little but I would have to say one band would be Captain Beyond. ------------- P.Hardy |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 12:51
wat? -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 17:40
Exactly. People here keep mentioning Crimson or other bands that belong pure to the prog side of things even if they have some elements that helped create prog-metal. But if we're talking about progressive-METAL, we also have to look at the metal side of things; Metallica, with And Justice for all and Master of puppets, created the original long metal structure that eventually Dream Theater worked upon to create When day and dream unite and later, Images and Words. So yes, I think DT were pioneers in that thwey truly incorporated METAL into progressive metal with riffing and strcutures taken from METALLICA, merging it with influences from bands like Rush, FWarning, Zeppelin, and yes, even mighty Crimson (one would think King Crimson created all music if one reads enough postst in this forum  )------------- 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 17:42
Good post. Though I still think it lacks mentioning the other side of things: METAL. And not NWOBHM but THRASH meatl which is the one DT and all its clones worked upon. Yes, DT heard more METALLICA than KINGCRIMSON before they created Images and Words. -------------
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 17:51
Damn, i forgot about Metallica  .I think DT haves its moments of consolidating their influences on their albums. For example, FII have a clear Rush's farewell to kings influence. Octavarium have a clear Pink Floyd's WYWH influence. Train of thought is their most Metallica album. However, their groundbreaking albums, such as awake, images and words, scenes from a memory and six degrees, simply puts their influences together plus something unique. -------------
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 21:57
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I love CAPTAIN BEYOND but i think like DEEP PURPLE and LED ZEPPELIN they were maybe more blues influenced and more "heavy' than "Metal" no? ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: April 04 2008 at 23:04
| Yep Metallica for me too. |
Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: April 05 2008 at 01:41
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IMHO, i don't think IM, DP, Sabbath or Led Zeppelin had anything to do with the development of prog metal... surely, they set the standards for hard rock/heavy metal but as sby already said going back like that will lead you to the 50's... of course prog metal already existed before I&W: Watchtower, Fates Warning, Queensryche, Sieges Even, Voivod etc... but that's not the point... up till then the only albums of any significant success or popularity were Empire and Parallels, probably the most commercial prog metal albums by that time... what I&W achieved - which actually supports the "pioneer" charcterization is that it successfully combined AOR (Asia, Foreigner etc), metal (mostly Metallica, sth that, by the way, proves nothing of the influence Metallica had on prog metal) and prog (Yes, Rush etc)... it was new in that way.... it was exciting, impressive, commercial... pioneering... can someone else pelase find any other song that sounds like Metropolis Pt1? for instance, Tool sound like a mix of KC with Led Zeppelin on Prozac... so what? have you ever listened to anything like it? ------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: April 05 2008 at 01:49
Good point Teo.I neglected Metallica in my original posts,because I consider Master of Puppets and And Justice for All early prog metal albums ------------- |
Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: April 05 2008 at 07:44
Between you I think that just about sums it up perfectly.
totally agree but i would add Watchtower alongside Fates Warning and Queensrhyche as pioneers and they were certainly an influence on Dream Theater. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 05 2008 at 07:47
It also depends on the track. For example, I think there is a good dose of King Crimson in Metropolis Pt. 1, a decent amount of Yes in Surrounded etc.. But you're right in that Thrash is a constant influence in most DT tracks. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: April 05 2008 at 07:57
Agreed Micky
a classic.The above mentioned Blue Rondo a la Turk can also be found on that album.
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: April 05 2008 at 08:12
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"nos esse quasi nanos, gigantium humeris insidentes, ut possimus
plura eis et remotiora videre, non utique proprii visus acumine, aut
eminentia corporis, sed quia in altum subvenimur et extollimur
magnitudine gigantea" ("we are like dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, so that we can see
more than they, and things at a greater distance, not by virtue of any
sharpness of sight on our part, or any physical distinction, but
because we are carried high and raised up by their giant size"), as Bernard of Chantres stated. also "ex nihil nihilo fit", "nothing comes from nothing", as Parmenides of Elea stated. what am I trying to say by this? simply that trying to answer questions like that is futile. human beings want to classify everything and draw lines, putting every phenomenon neatly into a drawer of its own. the world, however, is not made like that. to quote Goethe: "denn eben wo Begriffe fehlen, da stellt ein Wort zur rechten Zeit sich ein" ("because just where concepts are missing, a word will appear just in time"). having said that I will go and nullify everything I said and of course name "High Tide", which, as someone already noted, is expected of me -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 05 2008 at 08:21
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"What's in a name? that which we call prog metal By any other name would sound as sweet;"  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: April 05 2008 at 09:03
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yep, whether a rose or prog metal. I should definitely have remembered Shakespeare had something to say on the matter too
------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 05 2008 at 09:24
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Hey guys, since we are going to list influences let me list some other ones here. I would like to remember the north american black slaves, that came up with blues. From blues came jazz and from jazz came rhythm and blues and from rhythm and blues came rock and from rock came prog rock, metal and hard rock, which influenced prog metal, which influenced prog rock. As a result, prog rock nowadays is "harder" and prog metal is "proggier". -------------
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Posted By: dedalus
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 03:39
| fates warning. |
Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 04:48
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For me:
- Andromeda (Uk)
- Deep Purple
- Blue Oyster Cult
- Guess Who
- King Crimson
- Atomic Rooster
- Rush
- Rainbow
- Warlord
- Jeff Beck
- High Tide
- Black Widow
- Led Zeppelin
- ELP
- Wishbone Ash
- Quatermass
- Le Orme
- Black Sabbath
And many more... ------------- 
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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 06:39
| Topic title makes me think of stuff like Rush and Budgie, and Black Sabbath. Dream Theater weren't pioneers. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 08:24
Those bands you mention were never playing prog metal ... I can't see how they can be pioneers of the genre. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 13:55
These may be METAL pioneers in that they helped shape METAL, just METAL. But PROGRESSIVE METAL.... that's a different thing.
Rush or Badgie? Where's the METAL part of their "pioneerism?" I don't think so. They were influences on progressive metal, sure, but they were not playing metal, therefore how can they be prog-metal pioneers?
It would be good to start a thread about the meaning of the "metal" word and genre... all of these bands were INFLUENCES, but none of them actually played METAL. -------------
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 14:41
2112 not Prog Metal? Explain please Mike.  In the 70s Rush were often described as metal... |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 14:54
rush is only described as metal by the retards on metal archives. -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 16:17
I see what you're getting at. The problem here is the difference between classic metal and modern metal ... some people simply can't - or refuse to - see it. It's really like two separate worlds ... they may have similarities, one might have influenced the other, but in the end they remain separate. Dream Theater don't sound like Rush at all ... and I'm not just talking about sound as in guitar/amp settings or drum sets, I'm talking about all the musical elements. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 16:31
thanks for your pithy wisdom CCVP. |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 16:39
Thank you -------------
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 16:41
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Back on topic. Mike, I accept that DT dont sound like Rush, but stylistically Rush have been an influence, surely? |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 17:21
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^ sure, of course they have ... everybody knows that Portnoy is a big fan of Peart. But that doesn't mean that Rush invented Prog Metal. Nobody's saying that Stravinsky invented Prog Rock, but still Yes were inspired by the Rite of Spring on CttE.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 17:38
Rush influenced DT, but the prog metal pioneers were more influenced by metal pioneers and hard rock bands. -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 21:55
Take what progressive metal mostly is. Not counting new genres as post metal, most of what we know as PROG-METAL is mostly based on thrash riffing and strcutures that come in good part from METALLICA, not from Rush. DT were influenced by Rush in the hard-rock/prog side of things, but the core influence of their METAL sound comes from Metallica. That's my p[oint. -------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 22:00
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Crimson Glory, Fate's Warning, Queensryche, NWOBHM That's what I can trace easily. Black Sabbath surely had some influence, but really I think it's logical to say it began with the above. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 22:02
| OK, King Crimson's Red is a prog-metal album. King Crimson is not a prog metal band (well, they pretty much are now), but that album is every bit as heavy as anything Black Sabbath put out. The Great Deceiver box set shows the band at their jazz metal peak. Some of the stuff they play there scared me as much as Sabbath did when I first listened. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 22:04
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Yeah, I have to agree, sure you can hear Rush in Dream Theater, but it's not really that prominent in their music, and I think it's a major stretch to call Rush a prog-metal pioneer.
If you watch the score DVD, you will learn that when Mike Portnoy, John Petrucci and John Myung (as Majesty, the pre Dream Theater period) would frequently play Iron Maiden and Rush songs in the rehearsal rooms at the Berklee College of Music. I think it's safe to say of the two bands they would cover, we hear more Iron Maiden than Rush in Dream Theater's music. Also bear in mind, they began to play/jam in Berklee prior to Master of Puppets being released, which is of course an album they cite as a big influence (although I can imagine they would have possible been listening to Kill 'Em All and Ride Lightning though). ------------- 
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 23:12
WHAT? has ignorance gone this far??? How can RED be a progressive metal album???? it is a guitar-driven album. Or it is best to say AN AWESOME guitar driven album. But nor prog metal. -------------
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: April 07 2008 at 10:19
Jazz metal would certainly be a good description of at least the first three tracks on Red, and the album as a whole is far more metal than anything Ruch ever did. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: April 07 2008 at 10:41
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I love the term jazz metal! And yes, King Crimson is a surprisingly heavy band. But I wouldn't call them pioneers of prog metal, they lack to much of what is modern metal. And as I've probably read earlier in this thread, being heavy doesn't make it metal. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/LinusW88" rel="nofollow - Blargh |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: April 07 2008 at 10:46
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I don't see anything metal in "Red" at all
------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: April 07 2008 at 10:53
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WikiPedia has a decent, if not interesting, entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_metal - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_metal
FW, DT, and Queensryche are noted as bringing into mainstream. However, I do not see them as pioneers so much as the gatherers of precursory ideas. They molded the style, giving it greater definition.
edit:
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock
"Several of the leading bands in the prog-metal genre – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Theater - Dream Theater ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States - U.S. ), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayreon - Ayreon ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands - Netherlands ), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opeth - Opeth ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden - Sweden ), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fates_Warning - Fates Warning (U.S.) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queensr%C3%BFche - Queensrÿche (U.S.) – cite pioneer progressive hard-rockers Rush as a primary influence, although their music exhibits influences from more traditional metal bands such as Black Sabbath or Deep Purple as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_%28band%29 - Tool have cited pioneers King Crimson as an influence on their work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock#cite_note-10 - [11] King Crimson opened for Tool on their 2001 tour and expressed admiration for the group while continuing to deny the "prog" label. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock#cite_note-11 - [12] " -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 07 2008 at 12:40
This is exactly what I mean. They're a big influence, but their music is clearly of another genre than Prog Metal.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 07 2008 at 13:30
Neither do i -------------
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: April 07 2008 at 13:31
I have no argument in saying Rush is not Prog Metal. I'm right there with you. However, they are pioneers in the genre. One of those many bands that broke ground. I have even read in articles saying that they deserve the most credit due to their inclusion of keyboards with the heavy metal sound and Progressive Rock song structure.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 07 2008 at 14:48
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^ yes, and even without a keyboardist! Seriously, it depends on how you define pioneering. For me a pioneer is someone who does something before all other people. Obviously for you someone can be a pioneer in something without actually doing it ... it is sufficient if the artist is preparing or laying the foundation of something.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: April 07 2008 at 14:59
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heavy != metal necessarily
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: April 07 2008 at 15:03
I think it can be a gray area but I think a pioneer also opens the door for others. This would include trodding on ground not previously ventured. I would almost consider the end of Cygnus Book 1 as early Prog Metal.
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 07 2008 at 15:50
what? so Deep purple was metal . . . . -------------
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: April 07 2008 at 15:56
You've never written Java, huh? |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 07 2008 at 19:38
Well, there is no need to. There are many customizers available on the net for everyone. Besides, i never really needed to write in any kind of writing except the traditional writing. You can call me a newfag, but i don't have any kind of programming / writing / hacking abilities simply because i had never seen the use of such things. -------------
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: April 07 2008 at 21:20
*psst don't use terms like "newfag" on PA they're somewhat frowned upon*  a simple mistake, I should have made it more obvious like this heavy =/= metal -------------
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 07 2008 at 21:33
now i got it =P -------------
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Posted By: oracus
Date Posted: April 07 2008 at 21:54
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Check out Elegant Gypsy by Al Di Meola and you will how Dream Theater rip Meola off (ok, in a good way). For me, that record played a huge role in Progressive Metal as we see it today. ------------- 
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 08 2008 at 07:07
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It seems clear to me that the real Prog Metal roots bands were;
Generation 1
Scorpions/UFO
Judas Priest
Rainbow
Rush
Generation 2
Metallica
Rush
...the 1980s were a bit short on truly progressive metal acts, although there were a lot of minor innovators, and most "NWOBHM" bands put in their proggy moments - even Def Leppard.
Deep Purple et al never really played heavy metal per se, but brought a progressive aspect to hard rock - and Black Sabbath were the original heavy metal band. I've always had a problem with identifiying Queensryche as progressive in any shape or form.
If you're going to start counting 2nd generation bands like Maiden, you should also consider 1st generation bands like Skid Row/Thin Lizzy and Wishbone Ash.
At the root are Pink Floyd, Spooky Tooth and Twink.
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: April 08 2008 at 08:21
Jazz has some great ideas that Progressive Rock has been influenced with. But with DT/Di Meola, which parts do you mean? I am having trouble putting them together. It wouldn't at all surprise me about DT re-interpreting his ideas. They are one band that wears their influences on their sleeve.
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: April 08 2008 at 17:36
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"Elegant Gipsy" and metal? That is the least I think of when hearing that album, to be honest.
-------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 09 2008 at 01:01
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It's so amusing when I see people trying to be more politically correct with the "prog community" mentioning completely NON-METAL bands as main influences for prog-METAL bands than actual METAL bands which may sound less, say, "progressively correct", like Iron Maiden or METALLICA.
Yes people, I concede. It was Beethoven who really invented metal.
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: April 09 2008 at 01:44
It's already been explained that other genres/artists have had an impact on the development of Progressive Metal.
Elephant Gypsy may have had a fairly big impact on Prog Metal, but so did Yes, King Crimson, Jethro Tull etc.
Bach and Vivaldi might have been huge influences on neo-classical metal, but they aren't neo-classical metal pioneers are they?
Same goes for Al Di Meola, Yes, King Crimson, Jethro Tull etc, they are merely influences, not pioneers of the genre we now know as prog-metal. Metallica, Megadeth, Fates Warning and Queensrÿche would be good examples of Prog Metal pioneers -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 09 2008 at 02:45
Progressive Metal is a varied genre ... most of the bands are quite eclectic and draw from a broad range of influences and styles. What separates them from the other (Prog Rock) bands is that this range also includes NWOBHM/Thrash Metal/Death Metal/Black Metal. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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