Judas Priest (Prog Metal)
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47114
Printed Date: December 01 2024 at 22:39
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Judas Priest (Prog Metal)
Posted By: rushfan4
Subject: Judas Priest (Prog Metal)
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 09:21
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There hasn't been much spice in the forums lately, so after having a Judas Priest marathon yesterday, I have decided to spice things up a bit with what is probably a controversial suggestion that is likely to be shot down but might lead to a lively and hopefully enjoyable debate. I checked the list of bands on the Prog Metal team agenda on Mike's Rating Freak website and I didn't see that Judas Priest has been suggested for Prog Metal, so therefore I have decided to suggest them.
My suggestion is that based on current site guidelines, a band must have 1 prog album to be included on Prog Archives. It is my opinion that their first two albums Rocka Rolla and Sad Wings of Destiny might just qualify as progressive rock or progressive metal albums, and that their 3rd album Sin After Sin has some progressive moments. The remainder of their output is just good solid heavy metal music which may or may not have influenced many prog metal bands, but I am not suggesting that they are prog albums.
Therefore, might I request that the Prog Metal team discuss the possible inclusion of Judas Priest based on the merits of their first two and possibly three albums for inclusion into the progressive metal subgenre.
Obviously, Judas Priest is not some obscure band, and the fact that they are not already in the archives hasn't alluded me, but since I don't see that they have been rejected by the prog metal team, I figure why not suggest them. I would really enjoy reviewing their albums for the site, and since I very rarely visit the metal archives sites since I don't really care for much of what passes as metal these days, I would rather review them here.
Like other controversial metal band inclusions, if there were a proto-prog metal category, they would probably fit nicely there. But since there isn't and Judas Priest isn't old enough for the Proto-Prog category that leaves the prog metal sub genre as the only possible location where they might possibly fit.
Thank you for your time and hopefully this starts a friendly discussion.
Also, my apologies to my friends on the site that would prefer more lively discussions about lesser known pure prog bands. I know that Judas Priest doesn't need the press, but they are one of my favorite bands going back to my pre-prog days, and I really would enjoy reviewing their albums here. ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 09:35
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Not that I know much about Judas Priest, but their reputation at large is not connected to prog. And if you thought Iron Maiden was contentious.... ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 09:40
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or Metallica..... that said... Judas Priest does belong here.. the place.. .TBD... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 10:02
| Well, I could see Priest here, but I still think Metallica should be here a lot sooner than Priest. As you said, their first 3 albums qualify them, and I would say that Painkiller is prog-related with its mixture of pure thrash, NWOBHM, and symphonic elements on tracks like "Touch of Evil" and "One Shot at Glory". |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 10:24
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I don't think they fit in Prog Metal ... maybe Prog Related, but that would be for the admins to decide. BTW: I just added another feature at ratingfreak.com - there are now pages for each artist "as seen by" a particular reviewer. Here's rushfan4's page for Judas Priest: http://ratingfreak.com/_dbe,artist_info,_auto_5249053.xhtml - http://ratingfreak.com/_dbe,artist_info,_auto_5249053.xhtml The new pages are available on the user profile tab "Favorite Artists" through the "details" links.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 10:38
TBD???? Trash Bin Department?  I don't think they fit in the prog metal category. Just like others mentioned: Prog Related. ------------- 
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micky wrote:Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 10:58
 To Be Determined... PM isn't going to take Judas Priest.. I think we all know that.. if they didn't take Metaliica.... and we know why Metalica isn't here.. so PR is probably a pipe dream as well------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:04
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Make no mistake, I LOVE Priest, but I think adding them to PM would be quite a stretch, and that would mean moving Iron Maiden as well (sorry, Mike, I know you don't agree, and I don't want to reopen the controversy). Moreover, as others said before me, Metallica should be added way before them, especially because of the influence they had on the likes of Dream Theater. However, if I have to be perfectly honest, I don't think it's a good idea to add either band. If I could go back in time, I would never add Iron Maiden again, because the backlash was really excessive, and rather unpleasant as well. Let's face it, there is enough hostility about Prog-Metal as it is to force bands like Priest or Metallica down the throats of he more conservative members of the site. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:14
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^ I think the thread connecting Priest/Metallica to prog metal is on unsolid ground anyway. I can see the likes of Dream Theater being influenced by Metal and Prog and then synthesizing them into what they made. The end result is worthy of being on this site, but the original Metal element isn't. In my mind, Metallica, even disregarding those they influenced, should not be on this site. Long songs with solos and rhythm changes do not a prog (related) album make (or do they....?) Early Metallica was thrash and heavy metal, not much more. And post-Justice Metallica...do we need to even go there? But this is a discussion for another thread, I guess... ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:15
But I think Maiden belongs here. I mean, Powerslave and Somewhere in Time had their inclinations, but Seventh Son and especially the post-reunion albums have been fully prog. In fact I don't know why they're in related when Blind Guardian, who have 1.5-2 full prog albums are under full PM. Priest certainly qualifies for related, though I agree adding them would almost be more trouble than it's worth. But I still say that Maiden and Metallica could go under full PM. Priest has about 3.5 albums of really proggy stuff, but a lot more standard metal fare, so I would shove them into PR just to avoid a bigger backlash. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:19
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Probably no surprise to any one, but I have no objection to Metallica or Iron Maiden either for the same reasons as I would like Judas Priest here. Of course, I have no idea what the specifics are that distinguish a metal band from a prog metal band. I am sure that there are certain elements that the collabs are looking for that are beyond my realm of knowledge. If the Prog Metal team rejects them, then my next step would be to ask the admins to include them in PR. If they vote against including them then so be it. I love Judas Priest and I would love to be able to review their albums on PA. In case anyone is interested I have done some mini-reviews on Mike's website.
And although I perceive progressiveness in some to most of their albums, I accept that they are a heavy metal band after Sin After Sin and not a progressive band. But I feel that at least an argument can be made that their first two and possibly three albums (and as mentioned later some of Painkiller) are progressive. Site guidelines say that if a band has 1 prog album then they should be included. I know that this guideline upsets some members, but that is not my rule, that is the site owners' rule.
And since this is the song currently playing, as much as I would like to see the Priest here, I suspect that Some Heads Are Gonna Roll, or at least there will be plenty of eye rolls at this suggestion. -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:31
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:35
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If this happens (and it will), David Bowie will... no, he'll probably just stay right where he is, swimming on lots of money... ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:42
that isn't exactly constructive ..and has been the problem with trying to discuss bands like this. Those kind of statements. First off.. for reasons already stated... Judas Priest has a slight chance of being here and has nothing to do whatsoever with Bowie. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:44
| If we keep this up, we'll soon have AC/DC and Def Lepard here aswell! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:47
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^ my point exactly.... I'd suggest listening to the damn albums.. and if you still think they sound like AC/DC or Def Leppard... well.... hahahhahah.. .
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:47
Both good bands, but neither of them released 1 album that could possibly be considered prog. If you have read the other posts in the thread, there is at least argument that Judas Priest have released potentially 2 to 3 1/2 prog albums. -------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 11:57
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Mike, You said "They were most progressive in their early years when they weren't a metal band."
Does that comment suggest that they should be in a non-Metal prog rock category? As in the first couple of albums might be prog rock instead of prog metal. -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:04
interesting... pulling out the albums... if not metal.. then it comes my way... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:05
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I've always thought of Iron Maiden and Judas Priest as the metal blueprint. It's interesting to hear someone say that they're progressive because it makes me wonder what metal *wouldn't* be progressive when so many subsequent bands are based on their style... o:)
------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:06
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This is exactly the reason why I posted what I did earlier on... There is not enough open-mindedness around this site to consider EACH band on their own merits, and this leads to friction and unpleasant remarks galore. The sad truth is, no one trusts other members to know enough about music to suggest a band or artist on account of their prog quotient, and not just because they like them. No one believes that Judas Priest have been suggested after someone has actually LISTENED to their albums, knowing full well that they have NOTHING to do with AC/DC, Def Leppard or Kiss (to name but three). No one stops to consider that Journey, though well known for their AOR career, released three fully prog albums prior to that, unlike Toto, Survivor or Foreigner. They may be seen as part of the same movement, but they are NOT the same band. In my very humble opinion, stating that some suggest controversial bands for addition just because they like them is very offensive to the people involved, because it implies that they don't know a thing about music, and are just pursuing their own agenda. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:13
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no unfortunately there is not.... anyone who has heard Turbo would scoff... but the problem is when people who have incomplete knowledge of the group decide to muddy the waters and make having a real discussion on the merits of the band itself difficult. They find it easier to toss out labels and ridiculous comparisons.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:16
Laplace, Taking their discographies as a whole I agree with you that Iron Maiden and Judas Priest are the blueprints for metal. However, neither band was suggested based on their entire discographies. They have both been suggested based on very specific albums within their careers that have progressive elements or could even be considered full-fledged prog albums. Site guidelines state that if a band has at least 1 prog album then they should be included.
I seriously don't want to go here because I would like to keep this discussion friendly, but we have all heard the same Genesis argument. Genesis is the blueprint for Adult Contemporary Pop. Should they be excluded from the Archives because of that? And please, I am absolutely not suggesting Genesis shouldn't be in PA, because obviously they are one of the founding bands of prog, and belong here. -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:17
I think that *if* they get added then it would be a non-metal category - but I also said that in my own opinion even the early albums aren't progressive enough to merit such an inclusion, *maybe* in prog related. But I'm not an expert on early Judas Priest, I only listened to Rocka Rolla briefly and Sad Wings of Destiny twice. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:24
Well, there is a big difference between Genesis and Judas Priest in that regard: The first albums of Judas Priest were probably never regarded as Prog Rock or received much attention from the prog community back when they were released - the early Genesis albums on the other hand became blueprints of the genre. So I think that specifically for bands which only released one or two progressive albums in their career and then turned away from prog it's important to see how important/relevant the prog albums are - either in the scope of the artist discography or their genre. BTW: If they don't get added ... don't be too sad, I think that most of us long time members have a band which we suggested and which got turned down. For me it was Metallica, and I accepted M@x's decision. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:28
Agreed!  ... It happened to me with CSNY  ...And I accepted all of collabs decisions..
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:32
as the expert in the genre Mike.. .it is your call to decide IF JP was the blueprint of the genre.. if so ... I would go as far as to say you should include them. Even if they don't match what PM has BECOME. The site is ..or should be educational as well as informative. I know what Mark would say ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:37
| The thing is, far too many people stop at the NAME, without even bothering to wonder why a band or artist was added. We still have members who haven't understood (or pretend not to understand) what Proto-Prog or Prog-Related mean, and complain endlessly about Iron Maiden or The Doors being here, as if we had put them in Symphonic Prog together with Genesis and Yes. Since it seems to be impossible to make people see reason, and every controversial addition tears the forum apart, I have become very sceptical about the whole idea of adding bands who, while influential on the development of some prog subgenres, are too well-known for something else. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:40
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Agreed. And I am in absolutely no way suggesting that Judas Priest are more progressive then Genesis. It was a stupid point to make, but my first post was very specific in saying that Priest are a metal band, but that I think they might be eligible for PA based on their first couple of albums, and yet people still post things regarding their entire career. I am not saying their entire career they were a prog band. There are plenty of bands on PA who only released 1 or 2 albums and then broke up and were never heard from again, or their members went on to do non-prog projects. And they are here. They weren't groundbreaking. 99% of the posters on PA may not have even heard of them. I guess that what I am saying is that if Judas Priest had stopped making music after Sin After Sin and if based on those 3 albums they would be included on PA, then the fact that they went on to release 20 non-prog albums should have no bearing on the decision of including them. If it is decided that those 2 or 3 albums are not progressive enough by the power that be, then I might still disagree, but I can accept it. If the admins don't want to included them in Prog-related, I can accept that. There are plenty of other bands that deserve mention and attention for inclusion on PA.
Response to BTW: I would accept the decision and live with it and not go stomping off to my room in a pout. And also, as you might recall I went out on the line for Phil Collin's inclusion in Prog-related so I know I have to watch my back around here.  -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:41
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Raff.. that is where the genre teams has to stand up and defend .... be the 'experts'.. that they are. If they are known for something elsewhere.. this is a damn prog website.. what counts is the PROG music.. which is why M@X has the guidelines about if they did prog.. they belong. This is the archives of prog.. not a career retrospective site like Allmusic
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:43
In my humblest of opinions Judas Priest are not a blueprint for prog metal. The NWoBHM could be seen as a forerunner of what I call "modern metal" - and that label includes both prog and non prog metal. In a direct comparison based on their NWoBHM albums I would say that Iron Maiden influenced the development of prog metal more than Judas Priest did. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:46
Yep, quite right with that. There are many other bands named here that just did or made 1 or 2 prog and then lead to their commercial succes with another genre. (the one that they're famous cause, in this case metal) |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:47
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:52
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Mike "If we add them to Prog Metal people would constantly complain about albums like British Steel being not prog." Sort of like Moving Pictures through Snakes and Arrows for Rush? -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:54
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^ I'm not familiar with all the Rush albums of that period, but knowing both Moving Pictures and Snakes & Arrows I must say that I think they're prog. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:58
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I think that they're all prog, but I am biased in that manner. But I have seen plenty of posts regarding the various albums thoughout that period saying that they're not prog. More so with Snakes and Arrows then with Moving Pictures, but the comments are out there. -------------
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 15:21
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The first two albums just sound like Sabbath-worship to me with a few other elements. The names I keep seeing in reviews for these albums are "Black Sabbath" and "Deep Purple" and I definitely hear those influences. I don't hear anything progressive, though. I don't think it would be a good idea to open up the "prog-related related" genre...
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 15:28
lol... I really haven't heard any Judas Priest album, but I've heard them in VH1 Heavy: The Story of Metal... I don't think VH1 showed there prog side, cause I couldn't hear prog there, but I really don't want to get into them, hating metal.... Even though I know about them just like Iron Maiden, Motorhead, Metallica others... |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 15:30
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From AllMusic guide review of Sad Wings of Destiny: Although neither as commercially successful nor as technically flashy as subsequent releases, Sad Wings of Destiny was an important milestone in the eventual development of the progressive metal subgenre, and established a standard of excellence to which Judas Priest would adhere through the remainder of the '70s.
And this:
There are also two delicate, prog-style ballads, "Dreamer Deceiver" and the piano-based "Epitaph," demonstrating a compelling emotional range. -------------
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 15:45
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AllMusic also labels King Diamond as progressive metal. I don't trust them with genre assignment (especially after labeling Atreyu as "death metal/black metal").
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 15:49
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Scott, I LOVE that album, and I agree (to a point) with the AllMusic guide's statement. However, I would be grateful if you looked at my posts and gave some consideration to my remarks. Such an addition is going to wreak havoc on the forums, unless the Admins decide to crack down on complaints. As I have already stated, the general membership is not ready for a more 'open' approach to prog, and including a band that has such strong connections with a controversial genre such as heavy metal cannot but cause vehement reactions. Now that I am older and wiser, I wouldn't add Iron Maiden again... Unfortunately, you can't force open-mindedness on people. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 16:05
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Raff, Duly noted. All that I am asking is that they are given consideration. If the PM team doesn't feel they are prog enough or metal enough at the same time then it is what it is. If they are rejected for a prog category, as it appears they will be, then I think that the Admins should give it some consideration. If they don't wish to include them then it is case dropped.
Interestingly, based on this new info from Wikipedia for their album which is scheduled for release in 2008, their might be an even stronger argument for their inclusion. But that will depend on the actual final product.
In a June 2006 interview with MTV.com, frontman Rob Halford said in regards to the group's upcoming concept album about the legendary 16th century French prophet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostradamus - Nostradamus , "Nostradamus is all about metal, isn't he? He was an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy - alchemist as well as a seer — a person of extraordinary talent. He had an amazing life that was full of trial and tribulation and joy and sorrow. He's a very human character and a world-famous individual. You can take his name and translate it into any language and everybody knows about him, and that's important because we're dealing with a worldwide audience." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Priest#_note-15 - [17]
In addition to digging new lyrical ground for the band, the album will contain musical elements which might surprise their fans. "It's going to have a lot of depth", Halford said. "There'll be a lot of symphonic elements. We might orchestrate it, without it being overblown. There may be a massive choir at parts and keyboards will be featured more prominently, whereas they've always been in the background before." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Priest#_note-16 - [ -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 16:16
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^ sounds exciting! |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 16:28
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I thought it sounded quite exciting too. I am not sure if there is an anticipated release date yet or maybe some samples somewhere, but it sounds like this could be a great album. -------------
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Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: March 16 2008 at 00:57
The problem of discussing Judas Priest is Judas Priest. Bowie is just a vehicle to say "¿you seriously consider Judas Priest and reject Bowie?". Now, I want to make this clear: I do not think David Bowie should be added. That goes also for Mercury Rev and other bands wich I won't list right now. Having said that, if someone says "Judas Priest", it forces me to reconsider my concepto of prog - prog related. And within that "acomodated" logic, David Bowie sounds more than reasonable. On Judas Priest itself, I'm pretty sure that, if asked, they would laugh at the idea of being considered a prog band. Mercury Rev would react the same. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:19
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But as a Proto-Prog metal band, they dot all the i's and cross all the t's - more so than Iron Maiden. I'm not saying "If Maiden are here...", just pointing out that it would take a very long time to count the Prog Metal bands directly influenced by Priest (as opposed to indirect influence like, say, a particular Classical composer, where a PM band might quote a composer or write in the style for a few bars, but would never construct an entire piece that sounded like a classical composition).
"Rocka Rolla" is, to my ears at least, every bit as proggy as anything Uriah Heep released - just without the organ.
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:01
amen brother... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI0iX2q4pw8 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI0iX2q4pw8 ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:09
^^ I just love that song. And the band. Especially the 70s album, with my favourite being Sad Wings Of Destiny-Sin After Sin-Stained Class  .I don't have a problem with them being added, and I don't have a problem with a big Prog-Related section. I am however worried about the fact that those bands are given as much credibility as the prog bands on the site. Don't know how to solve that problem though...I also think that the P-R and P-P sections are great in for attracting people to the site, and thus help them discover that they like a lot of the "pure" prog bands. The battle rages on I guess. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/LinusW88" rel="nofollow - Blargh |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:11
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what great old footage! seeing them on The Old Grey Whistle Test is just too much.. akin to the Doors on Sullivan wonderful |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:13
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or this classic Mark hahhaha... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFx_kcypAGU - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFx_kcypAGU I'm no expert on Prog Metal... and I'll leave it to them to say... but it sure as hell sounds like prog metal to me hahhah. Oh wait .. no keys or tron... it can't be prog ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:22
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^^ Love that one as well! Really need some Priest now
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/LinusW88" rel="nofollow - Blargh |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:22
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hahhaha.. me too... just put some in myself ....
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 18:22
| Yep, THE BATTLE RAGES ON! |
Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 20:19
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Judas Priest as a prog band???? You have to be kidding. NO. That's absurd and ridiculous.
And therein lies the very crux of the problem with this way too generous profusion of "prog metal" bands on this site. Virtually anyone who ever performed a 3 chord riff and growled will be listed on here soon.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 20:24
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this discussion is (or has become) not about whether Priest should be considered a Prog band, but whether their music impacted other musicians who eventually developed true progessive metal frankly I think Cert has a point even though I credit Maiden with a bigger influence on Voivod, Metallica's prog periods and bands as DT |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 22:24
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I simply don't think Judas Priest are prog metal in the slightest.Great heavy metal,and they probably influenced many of today's prog metal musicians,but I don't see them as PM.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 22:30
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I didn't think so either... not by what constisutes PM by todays standards of course. but what may sort of throws the discussion off kilter is that .. at least for some including me till I sort of saw what PM was about and how you all are defining it... those early early years.. were definitely metal.. or could easily be called metal... and were quite prog. I do think Mark has a point... on the surface .. they were just as prog as a good many groups that occupy unquestioned spots here at the archives. ..such as Uriah Heep.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: WaywardSon
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 23:03
| I would say their output up until "Stained Class" was quite progressive, although I wouldn´t say they are a Progressive Metal Band, but could easily fit in the same genre as Sabbath |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: April 22 2008 at 23:12
I think their early albums can be considered "proto prog metal",but we don't have that category here. ------------- |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: April 23 2008 at 01:34
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Proto-prog metal would be Prog related, as it is related to prog metal.
personally i think Judas prieast aren't prog, and I wouldn't consider them for prog-related also, but if it's really the case they are proto-prog metal, I think they are elidgable for Prog-Related.
of course the problem with that is it basically means that Metallica again come into the equation as they can surely be considered proto prog.
my personal opinion is Judas Priest is an early metal band, pionering the metal genre, and by doing so paving the way for proto-prog metal (Iron Maiden and Metallica and 80's glam metal), so for me it's a no, but if their influence on prog-metal is really significant (which i can't judge, because i like metal, but hardly ever listen to progressive metal) it can be considered for Prog Related. ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 23 2008 at 05:05
I think the problem lies with blind opinions such as this.
You could at least make your argument more direct and support your opinion with some reasoning rather than hurling around terms like "absurd" and "ridiculous".
I fail to see any reason for NOT including Priest in Prog-Related, as I think they did more than pave they way for Prog Metal, they opened the doors and stretched the boundaries. OK, like Metallica they over-simplified after a few albums - but so did Genesis
 Check out "One for the Road" (from "Rocka Rolla"); Rodger Bain (Black Sabbath)'s production is so much better than on "Sad Wings" - and the song happens to be in 5/4 for much of it; http://youtube.com/watch?v=3zJ_J0NQKaM&feature=related - http://youtube.com/watch?v=3zJ_J0NQKaM&feature=related - OK, it's pretty much a single riff with a few stops and starts, but it's hardly standard hard rock/metal.
I also fail, as I always have, to see why Metallica are not Prog Metal, when they have released no less than 3 Prog Metal albums, one of which is definitive of the genre.
But that's another discussion entirely. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 23 2008 at 12:31
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Long thread, and I've barely skimmed it... From a compositional/ structural viewpoint, and approach to making music, just how similar is Judas Priest to Prog? How influenced was it by progressive rock? Do they blend genres and take an adventurous approach to making music? I seem to remember Judas Priest being considered quite groundbreaking and experimental in the early 80's, but since I wasn't into metal, I don't know. I don't think paving the way for progressive metal should be enough (there is no proto-metal category), or even expanding musical horizons (being progressive). I think it should similar attributes particular to progressive rock and metal. I just wonder if this was more influential to metal generally than to Progressive Metal specifically. I don't know about later albums or their career, but here's a little article I just found (I'll reprint an excerpt...) http://www.rollingstone.com/reviews/album/5204515/review/6054044/metalogy - http://www.rollingstone.com/reviews/album/5204515/review/6054044/metalogy
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: April 23 2008 at 12:50
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It would be weird seeing "Turbo" here. Although it would be even weirder and more sickening to see "St. Anger"...
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: April 23 2008 at 15:34
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Metallica's possible inclusion was decided by mailto:M@x,and - M@x,and he very emphatically said NO.So any dicussion about the addition of Metallica is pointless,because it will never happen. ------------- |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 23 2008 at 16:10
We're discussing Judas Priest in this thread...
 ...and even mailto:M@X - M@X will have to see the truth in Metallica eventually.
But not quite as sickening as, say "We Can't Dance", "90125", "Love Beach", "With The Beatles" or a great many other LESS progressive albums
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: April 24 2008 at 12:12
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In order to keep this thread up to date, I just wanted to relay a message from Easy Livin' that the Admin team has voted to reject Judas Priest for Prog Related. I still hope that the Prog Metal or Heavy Prog genre teams might be willing to consider them based on their first 3 albums since that is the basis of my suggestion for their inclusion, but if not, then life goes on. -------------
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: April 24 2008 at 15:24
I beg to differ, as St. Anger is 1000x worse than any of those albums. And thanks to this thread, I have "Breaking the Law" stuck in my head... ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 24 2008 at 16:52
| ^ at least that's better than "un-i-ted, un-i-ted, un-ITED we stand..." |
Posted By: Squonkman
Date Posted: April 24 2008 at 17:29
the antidote to that is Bobby Fuller's " I Fought the Law and the Law Won"
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: April 24 2008 at 20:02
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For those who are for JP's inclusion and consider the first 3 albums as being justification for PA, does the fact that Rocka Rolla & Sin After Sin suck big time have any bearing on arguing against them. Sad Wings of Destiny ranks up there with the great metal albums released by their contemporaries Sabbath, Purple and others. But the 1st & 3rd are mostly filler. Indeed, some reviews that I read before buying ( and later trading back) Rocka Rolla seem to consider it more blues based, in the way that the first Sabbath album was. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: April 24 2008 at 23:38
| Maybe a little historical context here...I can't imagine any JP fan way back when even remotely considering them anywhere near progressive. They were pure metal, to the point that my girlfriend at the time went near-catatonic upon hearing their version of Diamonds and Rust. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 25 2008 at 01:28
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I hope mailto:M@x - M@x one day open his eyes and forgets about the "metal" in "Metallica" and gives his OK..
Npw, about The Priest, I would accept an inclusion in Prog-related. But pure logic would tell me: "hell, why are they here and not....". Ok, whatever. I would support that.
But for prog-metal, I'd never give my vote. Never. They may have helped create and shape the thing, but they didn't PLAY the thing... Proto-prog-metal at best... ------------- 
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 25 2008 at 03:13
Hmm - personally I'd rather have St Anger on loop than be subjected to anything on the first 3. "With The Beatles" is actually a great album, but I would question it's prog credentials...
...and we're NOT talking about Metallica ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: April 29 2008 at 16:38
| IMO even the first three albums of Judas Priest do not justify their inclusion as prog-metal or prog-related because even considering they have some technically demanding songs in these albums, the major part of them are just good old 70's hard rock. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: April 29 2008 at 16:47
Be assured, mailto:M@x - M@x has the openest eyes you'll ever come across!
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 00:38
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I would say no for Judas Priest's inclusion. A great band, highly influential, but to my mind not prog enough to qualify for PA. ------------- 
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 11:11
I thought their version WAS near catatonic. Yer prototypical ham handed caveman grace. And one wonders why it didn't become a big hit such as Nazareth had with Joni Mitchell's This Flight Tonight (supposedly the inspiration for JP's cover of Joan Baez) ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 21 2008 at 14:10
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In case anyone is interested Judas Priest's new album Nostradamus will be released on June 17th.
They have the title track, Nostradamus, available for free download on their MySpace page. It has that classic Judas Priest sound. A bit of strings at the beginning and end, but mostly just straight ahead Judas Priest metal with the double guitar attack and the relentless drumming.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=210419730 - http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=210419730 -------------
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: May 21 2008 at 14:47
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i think that the3 first albums are woth to reach PA
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: June 16 2008 at 16:59
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Just to renew this debate. I haven't heard the new album yet, but this newly created thread does suggest that the new album is Prog Metal. I am curious to see what others think and have to say about the new album. It doesn't come out until tomorrow here, but I suspect that I will pick it up shortly.
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49484&PID=2876443#2876443 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49484&PID=2876443#2876443 -------------
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Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: June 17 2008 at 14:30
| No way they belong to heavy metal genre all the way so keep it this way please. |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: June 17 2008 at 16:17
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I know it is a hard thing to post, but from what I have heard across the web, many other sources cite Sad Wings of Destiny and Sin After Sin as genre-defining albums, but genre-defining for Heavy Metal, and few disagree that after Sabbath (in timeline), probably they were the next influential band over the genre. Being so, Heavy Metal includes SWOD and Sin After Sin and heavy metal is expected to have the same elements of these albums. Having said so, maybe people are looking to the wrong elements in some of metal bands to build an argument that they are prog-metal. Not that they aren't, but the use of wrong elements in argument can be misleading. |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: June 17 2008 at 18:49
I just bought the double cd today and just finished listening to it all the way through for the first time.It's excellent and a true return to form for JP.While it's a little more adventurous than previous material I still don't think Nostradamus is a prog metal album. ------------- |
Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: June 17 2008 at 19:22
I've only heard samples and free songs. First truly interesting JP album in a while. Will probably get it quite soon. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/LinusW88" rel="nofollow - Blargh |