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King Crimson

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Topic: King Crimson
Posted By: Zero the hero
Subject: King Crimson
Date Posted: March 27 2005 at 17:29
Can anyone explain what was the thought behind  the Beatles being included  on the Cover of King Crimsons 'Lizard' album?



Replies:
Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: March 27 2005 at 17:35
they are? can you find a pic?

they also appear on rolling stones satanic hidden in the 3d cover

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The Worthless Recluse


Posted By: Zero the hero
Date Posted: March 27 2005 at 17:58

Originally posted by frenchie frenchie wrote:

they are? can you find a pic?

they also appear on rolling stones satanic hidden in the 3d cover

 


Around the 'I' in 'Crimson' see em?



Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: March 27 2005 at 19:48
si that definelty the beatles?? i only see 2 ppl, sure it aint ppl with simialr features? i'll search on google for a bigger pic

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The Worthless Recluse


Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: March 27 2005 at 19:50
no way is that the beatles! i got a reli big pic, they barely look or dress like em.
i think you're just off your face mate!

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The Worthless Recluse


Posted By: Zero the hero
Date Posted: March 27 2005 at 20:08

Originally posted by frenchie frenchie wrote:

no way is that the beatles! i got a reli big pic, they barely look or dress like em.
i think you're just off your face mate!

 

I'm not off my face at all it's the beatles

 

b
o
b
The pre-Bruford era is my least favorite of Crimson's periods, but of that group of albums Lizard is probably my favorite. This one just sounds more demented than any other KC album, and also shows a strange sense of humor which is probably what makes me like it. "Indoor Games" and "Happy Family" are great twisted songs, with the lyrics to the latter supposedly being about the Beatles (it's not very apparent, and I didn't really believe it until I noticed the four very Beatlish looking characters on the cover under the "I" in Crimson).

The disc bogs down a bit in the middle with "Lady of the Dancing Waters" and "Prince Rupert Awakes" being a little too twee for my tastes (although it's fun to hear Jon Anderson singing about staking a lizard by the throat). The "Bolero" section is nicely done (and the only part of the album that Fripp saw fit to include on the Frame by Frame boxed set), and the segue into it from the "Prince Rupert" section is very well done (except for that damn tape flutter in the opening cornet note). The remainder of the album is on par with the quality of the other early KC discs.

If you're looking to hear the band at their oddest, give Lizard a try. Even if you ignore the strange parts, there's still plenty on the album to appeal to fans of the band's other early work.



Posted By: Hierophant
Date Posted: March 27 2005 at 21:04
just cause the reviewer said so, dosn't make it true, although its possible.

is that off gepr?


Posted By: Yams
Date Posted: March 27 2005 at 22:25
http://www.progreviews.com/reviews/display.php?rev=kc-liz

I've never heard about this rumor, but somehow I doubt it.


Posted By: Hangedman
Date Posted: March 27 2005 at 22:31

If you look closely you can also see a representation of hendrix, i think it is supposed to be the beatles. Why? I dont feel like pulling a reason out of my ass



Posted By: Alfi
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 13:44
definitly the beatles - left to right: george (in buddha-pose), paul, john and ringo
and i'm almost shure that on the right side at the buttom you can see a guitar-player (Jimi Hendrix), a flute-player (Peter Gabriel?) and a drummer (Ginger Baker?).
those are just my guesses but they might be right.
you can't really recognise them on the cd-version - you need to have the LP (that's my main reason for prefering vinyl over cds - the covers)


Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 13:47
im not convinced, i found a really large pic on google and it looks nothing like them, sure it COULD be but its prolly jus coincidence or unintended.

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The Worthless Recluse


Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 14:03
I seem to remember Fripp confirming that the Beatles were indeed depicted on the cover of Lizard, and that the lyrics to Happy Family are about them, but I can't remember where I saw it. The old grey matter's not what it used to be, and it wasn't exactly top notch to start with.

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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom




Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 17:24

Originally posted by Hierophant Hierophant wrote:

just cause the reviewer said so, dosn't make it true, although its possible.

is that off gepr?

 

Heres another then:

Lizard
   An Analysis by Andrew Keeling
 
Part I

'Lizard' is a concept album with a difference from those of the period, where the idea of social chaos is wrapped-up in suitably fitting metaphors such as the circus, the family, The Beatles and the Lizard. I do not plan to analyse the complete work, but will concentrate on 'Cirkus' and 'Big Top', which are both related as they frame and balance the musical structure. This brief analysis (to be expanded at a later date) will be divided into parts.

Cirkus

'Cirkus' includes the letter C and K which, perhaps, stands for Crimson King in a similar way to the first album, which included the group's name in its title. 'Cirkus' has four verses which are prefaced by instrumental introductions. There is an absence of refrains, or chorus-like material. Instead, each of the verses, in turn, ascend to climaxes which create tension. This is also reflected in the structure of the entire piece, which begins softly (a harp-like, distant electric piano), gradually building in intensity throughout until ending with loud mellotrons, cornet and rolled cymbals.

The whole piece falls into fifteen distinct sections which I will deal with separately:

  1. Intro. - harp-like piano introduces the minor third 'rocking' motive (pitch-classes 0,3 [E-G]). Tonality = E minor/mode;
  2. Verse 1 - voice and electric piano sound the second important musical motive of oscillating tones, mainly E and its lower neighbour-note D (0,10) which gradually rise to the 'dawn' (V-B major) by the close of the verse. The verse also includes Phrygian cadence-like chordal progressions, which made an appearance on 'Epitaph' on ITCOTCK (1969);
  3. Bar 25 introduces the 'rocking' mellotron motive, Bb - G (6,3), played mechanically in crotchets, which rises to E natural in bar 28. The much later song-piece, 'ProzaKc Blues', also explores the same pitches, although differently ordered. However, I believe that 'Dinosaur', included on 'Thrak' (1995), also references the minor third 'rocking' motive of 'Cirkus' as a kind of musical archaeolgy. Returning to 'Cirkus', the bass guitar anchors the texture with a G natural pedal pitch. The music returns to E in bar 31. In this way, the original E - G motive (3,0) of Verse 1, has now been reflected in the harmony (G minor - E minor mode). 'The World's My Oyster Soup...' ('The ConstruKction of Light', 2000), also utilises the pitches G and E as part of its riff;
  4. Verse 2 - 'open' texture. Acoustic guitar word-paints the lyrics (i.e. 'pushed me down a slide...' is pointed-up by a guitar glissando;
  5. The minor thirds of the instrumental, following Verse 2, is accentuated by bass guitar Bb - G - E - G (6,3,0,3) which not only uses the material from the mellotron's minor thirds, but also 'magnifies' it;
  6. Acoustic guitar solo - a study in arpeggiated thirds (played as fast semiquaver triplets) which takes material from the mellotron's minor thirds. This another example of Robert Fripp's technique of closely unifying musical materials;
  7. Verse 3 intensifies Verse 2 in textural terms.
  8. Alto saxophone solo heightens the words, 'lest the wheel stop turning', by circling over Phrygian cadence-like chords (C major - B minor). These Phrygian progressions also reflect the falling semitones in the voice part of the verses (i.e. at 'gave me each a horse..' of verse 1). Once again, the Phrygian chord movement is very much a King Crimson musical fingerprint. The mellotron pitches are also sustained over the bars by one beat, which is connected to the phrase structure which, in turn, has been stretched from four to six bars. This has the effect of tripping-up listener expectations;
  9. Drums are omitted from bar 155ff. This is the still centre of the piece, and perhaps the fulcrum on which the structure balances. Idea of social chaos, reflected in the metaphor of the circus, is now mirrored by the musical structure. On either side of this quiet section are 114 bars, followed by 111 bars excluding the senza misura climax at the very end. The piece may then be regarded as being bipartite; like a huge musical see-saw or swing. This central section also balances with the opening verse, both being without drums. It is also interesting motivically: the left-hand of the mellotron plays B - C - A (minor 3rds) underpinning a B major chord;
  10. Verse 4 - absence of drums ('Elephants forgot...' [drums=elephants?]); rapid descending arpeggios in the guitar part; drums re-enter on up-beat to 'I ran for the door...' giving the music great upward-thrust;
  11. Instrumental - even greater intensity than before with minor 3rds reinforced in the piano part;
  12. Quiet section; rhythmic symmetry in the second mellotron (three crotchets/two crotchet rests/three crotchets) plus motivic symmetry: mellotron II plays ascending C# - E nat. - C# crotchets; mellotron I plays descending C# - A nat. - C# mimims;
  13. 'Rocking' minor 3rds are further intensified with the introduction of the cornet;
  14. Penultimate section introduces rising A - B - C - D - D# which outlines a tritone (A - D#); bass guitar underpins this with a chain of tritones (A-D#, B-F, F#-C, G-C#). The tritones have been previously heard as part of the minor 3rd motive (Bb - E nat. of Section 3);
  15. Coda - senza misura: the climax of the piece with huge mellotron-dominated chord cluster (F/Gb/Ab/B/C/Db/Eb) supported by cymbal rolls; F natural, as a root pitch in the mellotron, seems to give the impression of progressive tonality (i.e. a work which ends in a higher or a lower key as compared to the key of the opening):

Intro: E minor/mode (chord i)...Coda: f note-cluster (chord bii)

There is also a connection between this allusion to progressive tonality with the tone/semi-tone neighbour-note oscillations included in the melodic material of the verses.

The piece could be regarded as a musical metaphor: the idea of the circus, included in Peter Sinfield's words, is further conveyed by the bi-partite/symmetrical structural see-saw, which balances on the fulcrum of the still centre. More than that many of the musical motives seem to have symmetry as their basis, as well as rising and falling motion, which closely unifies the music with the words even further.
 

Part II

Big Top

'Big Top', the final piece of 'Lizard' and originally the working title of the album (letter from Robert Fripp to Andrew Keeling, Winter 1970), balances with 'Cirkus' by being placed as coda to the entire work, as well as to the title-piece, 'Lizard'. A listener is brought to ground with a conscious reminder that the idea of the circus has run like thread-like through the work in a similar fashion to The Beatles' 'Sgt Pepper...'. However, Peter Sinfield has said (e-mail to Andrew Keeling, 23-vi-00) that a visit to a 'Bertram Mills' circus may have served as a catalyst for the work: 'I was introduced to various animal trainers, acrobats, the stern black-top-hatted ring master and...Coco The Clown...I came by affection/infection honorary circus folk at a very imperishable age (between 4 and 8). Add that to my later fascination with fun fairs.' The front cover-painting, as well as the music, gives very careful attention to detail in term of this circus/fun fair atmosphere.

'Big Top' is an instrumental in 6/8. It is 33 bars long, and includes a motley collection of instruments, used to evoke a typically circus-like instrumental accompaniment, perhaps as accompaniment for the trapeze, where the spectators' attention is not fully on the music but, instead, on the circus act itself. We hear, in the foreground, the mellotron strings, the bass guitar playing fifths and octaves, the drums battering snare, cymbals and open hi-hat on the strong beats, piano, fast oboe chromatic arabesques, marimba and hidden sounds whirling around in the background. The piece is, essentially, a loop.

'Big Top' resolves the tension of the gravitas of 'Lizard', and employs two chords: G7 and C. The piece is in C major, and in this way serves as a long-term harmonic resolution. It begins with a short anacrusis-like dominant prolongation before we hear two melodic phrases, a) and b), which are heard in the strings. These include the interval of the 3rd central to 'Cirkus'. However in the case of 'Big Top' the 3rd has been filled-in and transposed: a) C - (B) - A - (B); and transformed into the major as well as by retrograde form: b) (C) - B - (A) - G - (B). The latter version also reveals two interlocking 3rds: C - b - A - g.

The piece is interesting in other ways. Being loop-like the material is repeated round and round, like a giant wheel or roundabout, and begins in the far right of the audio-space. It gradually becomes central before, at the very end, moving upwards and over into the far left with an accelerando. It's as though what began as a rational experience, symbolised by 'right', has now ingrained itself into the unconscious, symbolised by 'left'. Perhaps it anticipates its gentler successor, 'Islands', which, through its use of femine symbolism such as water, ocean, the feminine per se, is preparing to connect us with an experience of the deep unconscious? Interestingly 'Formentera Lady', the first song-piece of 'Islands', is also in the same key/mode as 'Cirkus', E, but in the case of 'FL' music of a more passive type evolves. It is as though the conflicts of 'Lizard' are subsequently laid to rest in favour of the more Eros-laden music of 'Islands', and what was begun as far back as 'In the Court of the Crimson King' is, by now, treated in a very different way through 'feeling'.
 

(All analyses of the music of King Crimson/Robert Fripp is copyrighted material: Andrew Keeling/Discipline Global Mobile, 2000.)



Posted By: Prog_Bassist
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 17:29
Lizard is one of my favorites.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhuxaD8NzaY" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhuxaD8NzaY


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 17:33

Originally posted by Prog_Bassist Prog_Bassist wrote:

Lizard is one of my favorites.

 

And mine.Jon Anderson never sounded so good.



Posted By: Hangedman
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 17:47
Originally posted by Karnevil9 Karnevil9 wrote:

Originally posted by Prog_Bassist Prog_Bassist wrote:

Lizard is one of my favorites.

 

And mine.Jon Anderson never sounded so good.

I think Mr.Fripp drives his musicians like slaves. Listen to Wetton on any non-crimson album. Huge difference.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 18:03
Originally posted by Hangedman Hangedman wrote:

Originally posted by Karnevil9 Karnevil9 wrote:

Originally posted by Prog_Bassist Prog_Bassist wrote:

Lizard is one of my favorites.

 

And mine.Jon Anderson never sounded so good.

I think Mr.Fripp drives his musicians like slaves. Listen to Wetton on any non-crimson album. Huge difference.

 

We al know Robert was billy no mates but he was the boss at the end of the day.



Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 18:06
 

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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 18:11
Looks like the beatles and Yoko to me!Big smile

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Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 18:15
looks nothing like them to me

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The Worthless Recluse


Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 18:21
http://elephant-talk.com/faq/faq4.htm#q78

The gatefold sleeve artwork for the 'Lizard' album, despite it's medieval motif, has many modern allusions. In addition, much of the artwork refers to songs on the album which, in turn, also have modern references.

For example, the "I" in "Crimson" features a drawing of the Beatles. The drawing is a direct reference to the song 'Happy Family', which Peter Sinfield stated was about the breakup of the Beatles. In the song lyrics, "Judas" is Paul, "Jonah" is John (who drew a wife), "Rufus" is Ringo, and "Silas" (grew a beard, drew another flask of weird) is George, a devotee of the Maharishi. [last update:] Also, in the line "Cheesecake, mousetrap, Grip-Pipe-Thynne cried out "We're not Rin Tin Tin"", Grip-Pipe-Thynne was a character played by Peter Sellers from the Beatles favorite radio program, 'The Goon Show'.


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https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection.

Commissions considered.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 18:35

Originally posted by Reed Lover Reed Lover wrote:

Looks like the beatles and Yoko to me!Big smile

 

Reed thanks for the el-biggo pic..people ar so f**king dence on here.

 

 



Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 18:50
here are some more beatles appearances

1. bob dylan - john wesley harding album, he supposdely hid the faces of the fab four in the tree on his album cover if you turn it upside down, heres an enlarged pic (sorry K9)



2. to thank the beatles for being included on the cover of sgt peppers, rolling stones hid the beatles in the cover of "their satanic majesties request"



george? is on the left with a multicoloured hat, his head is popping up where the guy on the lefts hand would be. john lennon is directly opposite on the right hand side above a camel. SEE THEM?

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The Worthless Recluse


Posted By: alan_pfeifer
Date Posted: March 28 2005 at 19:59
^ Wow, nice job.  And I DO think it's the Beatles/ Hendrix on the Lizard cover.


Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: March 29 2005 at 10:54
apparently the other 2 beatles are in that rolling stones cover but are much more difficult to find.

also that bob dylan one looks like a bunch of hooey, but i can see 2 faces.

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The Worthless Recluse


Posted By: sorcerer
Date Posted: March 29 2005 at 11:31

hey, Man Overboard, i'm glad i'm not the only one that remembers that story about how the song Happy Family was actually the Beatles breakup. Lets see..."happy family, one hand clap, 4 went by and none came back" yeah kinda makes sense. As an aside, the best info on crimso i ever got was the liner notes from " a Young Persons Guide" - Fripps diary, what a hoot! in the mid 80s, Musician magazine came out with later installments of this diary - great stuff. have no idea how you would get hold of this now tho...

 



Posted By: Dreamer
Date Posted: March 29 2005 at 12:07

How do you find such good analysis of songs? whenever I do a search I end up with rubbish. What do you type, is there one good site?



Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: March 29 2005 at 16:15
I think someone just had TOO much time.

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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: March 29 2005 at 16:20

Hugh Syme hid a picture of Greg Lake on this Rush album.Can you guess where?LOL



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