Help us fight piracy
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Get The Word Out
Forum Description: Promote your Prog shop, website, concert, book or CD...
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45773
Printed Date: December 02 2024 at 04:51
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Help us fight piracy
Posted By: BigBoss
Subject: Help us fight piracy
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 22:05
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I know this is an explosive topic and I don't intend for this to turn in to a flame war on this board, but myself and other artists and labels have 2 sites going www.myspace.com/progagainstpirates and progagainstpirates.blogspot.com where we are working on a campaign of education on the dangers of illegal downloading, both to the artists you enjoy and to yourself based on current laws that can see you liable for millions of dollars in damages. If you're a musician and want to put your name to our list, just let me know, if nothing else, come and get involved in the debate. ------------- Best Regards, Shawn Gordon President ProgRock Records www.progrockrecords.com www.mindawn.com |
Replies:
Posted By: sean
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 22:16
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Good job! I'm glad to see someone taking action against this. I don't care what anyone says, piracy is wrong and shouldn't be supported. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 22:38
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I never liked the whole Napster thing (various reasons:bad sound quality, ripping off musicians etc) so I didn't participate. At least one of my friends who was very enthusiastic about it ended up owing a couple thousand dollars. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 22:47
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It's not a clear-cut issue.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 22:49
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as Stonas said you can't be gung ho for either side because neither are completely right on one hand you have people who hoard music and don't give a second thought to pay for any of it on the other you have 40 minute albums for sale for defunct bands for 17 dollars clearly the industry needs to reshape itself on a large scale and it isn't going to happen quickly ------------- 
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Posted By: BigBoss
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 22:57
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You can certainly find corner cases, but I'll keep it real simple. All the stuff on my label, I don't want being pirated, and I'm finding a lot of it being pirated. It's all readily available from many resellers around the world, with plenty of samples, including full songs. Our group is all interested in stopping the piracy of our material and we represent about 10,000 albums. ------------- Best Regards, Shawn Gordon President ProgRock Records www.progrockrecords.com www.mindawn.com |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 23:01
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I definitely understand what you mean its a tough battle though to be sure -------------
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 23:03
| It's a crystal clear-cut issue. Stealing is stealing. You don't take something you don't pay for. Don't like the $17 price, don't buy it. Just because you have the technology to steal music from the comfort of your own home doesn't make it not a crime. Don't justify that *illegal* downloading is any different from shoplifting. It is not. Good luck Shawn. |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 23:15
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The stealing is not the issue, the impact of it is one problem with this is that while larger labels complain about the stealing (which doesn't have too much an impact on them, lets face it, the four main labels are HUGE) and no one pays attention but smaller labels and artists definitely feel the impact a lot more for example, I had read a response from Toby Driver of Kayo Dot with a similar complaint, and he pays most of the price of his music and does it for the MUSIC, and yet if no one supports him/the rest of the band there will BE no more new albums by them. I post on another message board, and the collective responses seemed to fall into two categories: those who thought he was being whiny and completely disregarded it and said they'd never buy the album no matter how much they liked it, and those who enjoyed it and bought it when it was possible for them to. (I own both Choirs of the Eye and Dowsing Anemone with Copper Tongue if you were wondering  )Another complaint I've noticed people having is that a lot of people feel that a "short sample" doesn't give a feel for the whole album. As a prog rock fan, I can understand this  perhaps there is more of a future in the way of streaming entire albums on myspace pages etc....The Mars Volta, Muse, and Coheed and Cambria have recently implemented this with their latest albums and it's a practice that I genuinely like. edit: I'm not proposing these as solutions, just trying to give another perspective to work with -------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 23:23
Fine, the artist/label doesn't like me sampling their music, then either buying the album I sampled (and more), or buying further albums that outweigh the one I downloaded, then it's their loss, where it could have been a gain. Would you call downloading an album and then buying it stealing the album? Would I have stolen it then given it back? What to do about obscure music that can't be found anywhere for under $40. I'd gladly pay $20 if it's reputable, but $40 for a CD is just stupid, so it's getting downloaded. The person offering it could have had $20, but now they have $0. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Finnforest wrote:Posted By: endlessepic
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 23:37
| I agree with Stonebeard, 40 dollars is a lot for a cd and what about downloading and then buying. I gladly spend hard earned money on prog musicians hard work. Downloading is a way for a person to get to know the music and then I would hope they would be the album and support the musician. |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 23:43
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/\ this is a very common practice too the problem is there's just as many people who'd rather have the music and not give a damn about paying for it as there are who genuinely like the music and only financial barriers stand between them and owning a hard copy I wonder, and this would be somewhat odd, and a bit out on a limb but if there were to be an album that one could download in its entirety but the files would be programmed to delete themselves after a day or two not able to be burned to CD's etc. so that way the consumer would have a better feel for the music and at the same time would still have to buy it eventually as for the imported/rare albums, that's a far more difficult problem to solve -------------
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Posted By: BigBoss
Date Posted: January 28 2008 at 23:43
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Stonebeard - you are falling in to the same trap that most people use to justify illegally downloading albums. Albums cost on average $15. You can hear plenty of samples on the bands or labels pages or myspace pages, for my label in particular you can hear the entire songs up to 3 times on www.mindawn.com - as for myself, when I bought music, I'd buy a whole CD based on one song I heard that I liked. Since there are legal ways to sample plenty of the album to make a purchase decision (needing to hear a whole album a dozen times before making a decision is not valid). Since 95% of downloads do NOT convert to sales, the whole "I'll buy it after I listen" argument is almost totally invalid. ------------- Best Regards, Shawn Gordon President ProgRock Records www.progrockrecords.com www.mindawn.com |
Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 00:03
| So what if I don't buy it if I don't have the money. Would the artist just want me fully avoid their music? |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 00:09
For most people who don't care about the music as much as I do, then it can be counted as a loss. But I am constantly expanding my musical horizons, especially to the 60s and 70s, and not many obscure bands from then have myspace pages. Also, the music is likely expensive, more so than I and many others are willing to pay unless it's a surefire, guarantee, love it like a son masterpiece. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: BigBoss
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 00:31
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Ok, so if a painting by DaVinci is too expensive, but you want it, would you steal it? If you feel like Lobster, but can't afford it, do you steal it? If you want a BMW but can't afford it, do you steal it? Just because something is easy to steal, doesn't make it right. Imagine if the death penalty was quickly applied to someone stealing music, would you stop doing it? This is obviously an extreme example, the point being, if the penalty is severe enough, is that the point you will admit it is wrong? ------------- Best Regards, Shawn Gordon President ProgRock Records www.progrockrecords.com www.mindawn.com |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 00:36
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Yes, but you have to ask yourself this question (in a hypothetical scenario).... Someone downloads an album from an artist (whether they replace it is irrelevant). Suppose we count this unequivocally as stealing, but they felt there was no other way to fully understand what kind of music the artist made and whether or not they would enjoy it. They do enjoy it, and buy 3 more albums from the artist. Would you rather have had that person not stolen that album and not bought 3 more, or do the ends justify the means? ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: BigBoss
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 01:36
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This is the crux of a lot of the pirates arguments, claiming that they then purchased dozens of albums because they illegally downloaded it first. The evidence refutes this argument, and the artists involved in our movement don't want people to download illegal copies, period. There are plenty of legal methods of getting the music to check it out. Even people in the most improvished countries are paying for there internet service, which isn't cheap (I know because I have friends throughout asia, south america and eastern europe who tell me what it costs), so it is a matter of budgeting your expesnes. ------------- Best Regards, Shawn Gordon President ProgRock Records www.progrockrecords.com www.mindawn.com |
Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 01:48
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You might find this program to be of note in this discussion: http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article3261591.ece -------------  <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR] |
Posted By: BigBoss
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 01:59
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you should read this then http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23121891-1702,00.html I talked to our rep at WEA (warner/emi/atlantic) today and he said they have no agreement. This isn't the first ad based music service to start, and none have been successful so far and that is because pirates will pirate, you can't give them an alternative they will accept despite anything they say because we've countered every argument and they have no solution. No one wants ads in their music, this model will never catch, it hasn't so far and it likely won't ------------- Best Regards, Shawn Gordon President ProgRock Records www.progrockrecords.com www.mindawn.com |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 02:21
I understand that prices can sometimes be prohibitive, but as small labels and bands are more and more effected by this issue, unfortunately they'll be ramping the price UP!
A lot of pricing is down to pure economics and is far too big a political potato to hang at the door of the bands and labels.
For an example, I was recently looking to buy a camcorder. £300 (UK STERLING) on-line price in the UK. Same camera same specs etc etc etc $300 USD. So in real terms those customers in the USA are getting it about half the price in the UK. When we come to the states on a trip we think that restaurants etc are cheap, but when you lovely folks come to the UK I should imagine you are pretty horrified by the price of eating out, hotels etc etc.
About £15 for a new release (inc p+p) is about normal, some are higher, some are lower. That's about $30.
I think most artists/labels will try to keep the price 'normal' for each country, but to drop below $20 they are going to start losing on the deal.
$40 is a lot of money, I have paid £20 for albums, but at the end of the day if they is something in the marketplace I cannot afford, I simply have to wait until I can, or darn well go without. If I were to download it I am not doing any good whatsoever to the artist I am only satisfying my wants.
P-C x
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 02:46
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I buy used albums/vinyls almost exclusively, so the band/label isn't really getting my money to begin with...
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 03:39
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Interesting discussion. I don't agree with illegal downloading but I can't see any real way to stop it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10"> 
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Posted By: Lanor
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 04:17
People can go and view the Mona Lisa right? I mean the comparison would make sense if a download was the only copy ever in the world and no one could ever listen to it again. But really it's an illegal duplicate. I think if people could download genuine paintings, food and cars for free they would. Music is an entirely different ballgame. Imagine if my neigbour was playing music and I had to put in some ear plugs. Not because it was so noisy, but because I realised I didn't own a copy myself. Also think about all the albums being lent out, and bought second hand as aforementioned. Most people who listen to independent or local artists are the kind of people who are serious about listening and will also purchase an album. There is no way prog rock would have the fanbase it does today (referring more to the younger audience) if it weren't for the internet and downloading. |
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 04:31
A Catholic friend has a copy of DaVinci's The Last Supper. Is this theft? ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 04:42
Please don't confuse the old Napster (one of the first P2P networks) with the new, legitimate Napster (download shop + subscription service). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 05:49
Paintings are unique, and you can't compare it to musicalbums. But I wouldn't hesitate to download a near perfect documentation of Mona Lisa, print a good reproduction and hang it on my wall. Downloading normally prized by and easy to find music is wrong. Blogs with obscure music thats out of print is a great. Far better than the alternative; absurdly overprized, second hand versions. Imagine if the death penalty was quickly applied to someone stealing music, would you stop doing it? Eh...yes, who wouldn't? Would you stop using aftershave if death penalty was quickly applied to someone using that? ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 06:37
Everyone who lives in the U.S. should check out http://free.napster.com/ - http://free.napster.com/ . There you can listen to a *lot* of albums up to three times for free ... then you can either purchase the files or subscribe ($10/month). @BigBoss: I know you don't like Napster too much, but if your albums are available there (example: http://free.napster.com/view/album/index.html?id=12558582 - http://free.napster.com/view/album/index.html?id=12558582 ) I'll use the opportunity. The same goes for emusic.com ... ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 07:30
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I dont illegaly download and have no intention of ever doing so, well, except when a band offers there album for free on their website. However, without the likes of Amazon and Play were I can get many prog albums for just £6 from indipendant sellers (not second hand, which I dont exactly trust), I wouldnt be able to buy many albums at all. The fact of the matter is that charging £15 for an album is grossely over-expensive for a piece of plastic, and until the price comes down to at least £10 for all albums, not just certain new releases, then I dont see any real solution to the problem of ilegal downloading.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 07:39
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^ of course an album is not just the piece of plastic, vinyl or the piece of the hard drive which stores the mp3 data. There's also no way to determine the "reasonable" price for an album. When I buy a watch I could try to determine the price of all its parts and the work hours needed to assemble it, then add 10% and this *could* be a reasonable price. For an album it is much more complex ... there's the cost for recording the album, the cost for marketing/advertising, and then there are the artists who created it and want to make a living with their music, which includes touring/shows *and* album sales. My personal solution is to go for *any* legal opportunity which is available to me. The best solution for the bands would be to record the music all by themselves and to offer the CD or download on their own website, or at a artist friendly store like mindawn.com or cdbaby.com. But if they're also making the music available on subscription services like Napster or cheaper download sites like emusic.com, I'll use them because I have limited funds and I want to get as many albums as possible for my money. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 08:57
You are correct, the new Napster is different, I was referring to the old Napster. Hopefully I didn't mislead anyone. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: January 29 2008 at 10:24
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OK, the message has been addressed. Many thanks! ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |