Miles Davis proto-prog
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45558
Printed Date: November 29 2024 at 17:37
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Topic: Miles Davis proto-prog
Posted By: bluemusic2000
Subject: Miles Davis proto-prog
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 12:49
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After hearing a lot of miles Davis's fusion. Especially in a silent way and Bitches Brew. The extended tracks and the sound of the albums seem to be opening the doors for prog. Is he proto-prog??? discuss |
Replies:
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 15:43
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not proto prog.. otherwise we would have put the 'creator' of jazz rock fusion in proto when we added Tony Williams. Personally.. from my own observation... Miles Davis is a shoe-in to be included... it is just a matter of who takes it on.. and when.. it's just a HELL of a lot of work to do for us unpaid smucks hahahhahahha
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: EnglishAssassin
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 16:42
| The only Miles Davis albums I've listened to properly are the above two, plus Live Evil, and, yes, on the strength of those records in isolation, he could easily qualify as a progressive artist. What may count against him is that, from what I've heard of it, the bulk of his vast back catalogue prior to the mid-seventies is just plain jazz (albeit acclaimed jazz) has no noticeable connection to progressive rock. |
Posted By: progaeopteryx
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 19:30
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Miles Davis has my vote. I'm surprised he's not already listed here. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 20:17
hahahha.. well you heard right.. .let me put it to you this way EA... suppose we have an artist that came around ..say... 1969.. did some prog albums ... and disappeared like a fart in the wind. Are they more prog than Miles Davis. of course they are not... what he did before prog really doesn't matter a damn ... and ..as evidenced by many groups here.. turning away from prog doesn't disqualify anyone either. This is a prog rock site.. not allmusic... technically what he did before...and after doesn't concern us. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
EnglishAssassin wrote:Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 20:22
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oh yeah EA.... your album collection is incomplete without a copy of Kind of Blue   ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 20:32
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I second that. Kind of Blue is probably essential to any music collection. I tend to think of Miles as an excellent jazz musician who dabbled in and was a major catalyst for much of great the jazz rock/fusion that came out of the late '60's and early '70's.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 20:40
Sort of not like adding Genesis because their albums were simply not important in the day . and are known outside of prog circles as something OTHER than prog I think dabbled is sort of understating it a bit... his albums are like essential jazz rockfusion albums and were massively influential in the genre. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 21:32
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Miles put out some of the most progressive jazz-fusion I have ever heard. Bitches Brew and Jack Johnson are even more progressive than Weather Report, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Return to Forever, and all of the other PA-listed fusion-era Davis spinoffs. No doubt that he belongs here.
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 22:06
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If people are into adding Miles I would be willing to help out.
If you want to hear some very original takes on what rock music can be check out Agharta, Big Fun, Dark Magus and a few others. Although Miles hit the early 70s playing jazz-fusion, by the mid-70s he was playing experimental psychedelic rock more influenced by Funkadelic, Hendrix, Soft Machine, Pink Floyd, Stockhausen and the Grateful Dead than jazz. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 22:22
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I'm no expert on J-R fusion...I'm just (word of the day here hahaha) stimulating the conversation... but as far as the concerns of this site.... wasn't that movement.. from teh prog side of it.. fairly well dead by the mid 70's anyway. Davis wasn't the only one to move on... Mclaughin went to Shakti.. William left.. and didn't things shift more onto the jazz side and become for the intents of this site at least.. out of bounds as far as 'prog' jazz-rock. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 22:37
| ^ that's basically correct, Mike, and I could name many others that 'moved on' around that period, though they may still do fusion music |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 22:42
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I figured as much David but advanced the premise more as a question. I didn't want to speak as an authority because I sure as sh*t am not on that subject
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 22:44
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I think I see what you are saying there. For those of us who were there hanging on each new release, jazz fusion seemed to start losing its initial spark just about a year behind the original progressive rock bands.
Most of the great innovative jazz rock musicians of the early 70s were playing "fuzak" by about 76 or so. What Miles was playing in the mid-70s was enterily different though, and does have a lot in common with some more adventurous psychedelic or avant-garde bands on this site. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 22:48
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I'm referring to the Pete Cosey on guitar bands, after his return from retirement he started as jazz fusion again but then became more commercial, but still very fresh and original. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 22:48
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Martin and I discussed him last summer for addition..but got sheleved when I had computer problems after getting back from Italy. That is what I got at in my first post. I'll talk to him.. if he is still a go for addtion.. and Richard is on board.....and if you want to help EM... we'll see about adding Davis.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 22:52
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Sure, let me know, I think some people on this site would really like a lot of his more obscure stuff. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 22:55
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great .. I'll talk to them and see if they are a go for it.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 23:44
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By the way, I'm not one to argue against his addition here, but once you add an artist don't you really invite the whole discography in? By the way, get him in and I'll be happy to add as many titles as I have that I don't get beat to. Birth of the Cool 1949 Round About Midnight 1955 Miles Ahead 1957 Milestones 1958 Porgy and Bess 1958 Kind of Blue 1959 Sketches of Spain 1960 Someday My Prince Will Come 1961 Sorceror 1962 Quiet Nights 1963 E.S.P. 1965 Miles Smiles 1967 Complete In A Silent Way Sessions, The 1968 Filles De Kilimanjaro 1968 Miles In The Sky 1968 Water Babies 1968 Complete Bitches Brew Sessions, The 1970 Tribute to Jack Johnson, A 1970 On the Corner 1972 Pangaea 1975 Agharta 1976 Amandla 1989 PS Bonus (bogus?) points and a cardboard cookie to anyone who can identify the Miles Davis section in my collection collage in my signature. Some hints: 1. I didn't start collecting Miles until the CD era. 2. I file artist-chronological. 3. Look for the Bitches Brew Complete Sessions. It was too tall to fit in a standard row but is still located per hint no 2 (I didn't set it off the side). Also, In A Silent Way Complete Sessions is similarly situated.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 22 2008 at 23:55
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those are the rules.... as I posted in a thread in the collab area one time.. for additions I handle.. I'll add the artists and maybe some essential albums but for the most part I let others (fans) add the albums when there is an large discography. It's one of the few things non-collabs can do to get 'involved' and we have no shortage of people that want to help out.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: January 23 2008 at 06:38
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For the importance for Jazz Rock and Fusion music my vote is yes! ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 23 2008 at 08:07
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Now about what category to put him in. I'm looking forward to the creation of the new progressivejazzrockfunkfusionprotoprogmusic subgenre. For an existing category, I'd go for jazz-rock/fusion as that is his primary intersection with the progressive rock universe. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 23 2008 at 08:19
bingo... that is the one.. and the only one for him.... sure as hell not symhonic ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 23 2008 at 08:28
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File him in a metal subgenre and confuse the hell out of everyone!
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 23 2008 at 08:31
nah... symphonic and watch Ivan's head explode and rivers of blue font flow like lava ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 23 2008 at 12:32
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How about making a new genre, symphonic metal, and putting Miles there? And why hasn't Ivan chimed in on this thread yet? He must be building up something really special. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 23 2008 at 15:29
I'm sure he's had enough of my bullsh*t hahahha anyway Davis is the poll booth right now and votes are being tabulated exit polls show a runaway victory for his addition in ... J-R.. we thought it was a better fit than Italian Symphonic which was the fall back option hahahha. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: February 10 2008 at 19:21
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yeah Davis should be added for sure,not only is it blatent fusion look at the musicians in his band ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 10 2008 at 21:48
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an update... was mentioned in another thread.. but will update here. Davis is under eval and all the votes in so far look good... but was asked to be patient with it. So I'll check back in a week or so and check in with the team and update here. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: February 10 2008 at 23:54
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I have no input or influence but what I've heard from Bitches Brew, I don't see why he shouldn't be here
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 11 2008 at 10:54
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Miles is with Trane, my fave jazz artistes.
Actually I think it is the responsability (or at least I would take it as such) of the collab that opens the entry page to fill at least all of the major releases (studio and live) or see to it it gets done? This in general requires teamwork, because alone...... >> In case of Miles, this could take days. This is a problem we had to face for LarrY Corryell (the collabs were three doing the work) and that we'll have to face for every jazz artistes we could include.
Theoretically Miles' inclusion is inevitable (From Miles In The Sky in 68 to Agartha in 75, everything is either jazz-rock fusion or jazz-funk) and I would favor it, but then will come Corea, Hancock , Shorter, Zawinul (may be in aleready), Vitous etc.....
So Miles' inclusion would not only be opening a can of worms, but also create an awful lot of work and plenty of straight jazz pre-68 releases in there as well. Furthermore Davis started recording in 48 (at least I think), which is completely out of the time scope of this site. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 11 2008 at 12:46
Unless I'm mistaken, Miles' first recording under his own name was Birth of the Cool, but he had already been playing and recording for a little while. By the way, I added a lot of Coryell titles and will be happy to do the same for Miles. Maybe we should have a little contest to see who can add the most. This guy's got a huge discography compared to his progressive intersection. I'll be happy to add a lot of titles. I have a really hard time when it comes to reviewing instrumentals though, but I'll do my part. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: February 11 2008 at 13:16
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One of the most over-used and misused words in PA is 'influential'. Somebody says Miles influenced prog rock - therefore name a mainstream prog band who were influenced? However, if asked to name a jazz fusion band, I can give dozens. But with John Coltrane and indeed Dave Brubeck it is easier. Coltrane influenced the Byrds (e.g. Roger McGuinn guitarwork on 8 Miles High), Allan Holdsworth (whether playing jazz rock or prog rock), Soft Machine even before they played avante jazz rock. The Dave Brubeck Quartet influenced Keith Emerson, hence Nice, ELP and other heavier Hammond driven bands - whilst DBQ's Joe Morrell influenced so many drummers.
I completely agree with this statement:
[quote] So Miles' inclusion would not only be opening a can of worms, but also create an awful lot of work and plenty of straight jazz pre-68 releases in there as well. Furthermore Davis started recording in 48 (at least I think), which is completely out of the time scope of this site [quote].
My past reluctance to included Miles, was with the hope that some rational thinking would kick in at PA, with the introduction of bands/artists with selective prog-valid discographies (rather the far from satisfactory 'all or nothing' policy - IMHO the 'all' approach doesn't do the site's creditability any good). Just for example look at reviews of Queen albums that can't be truly justified as prog but get written up by those who don't know any better. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 12 2008 at 05:37
Indeed, this would solve many problems but in Miles' case we'd probably argue as to where it really starts.
Most would say In A Silent Way
My feeling is Miles In The Sky
AMG says: Certainly, there have been many revisionist theories about On the Corner — since it proved to be so influential — by a number of critics who reviewed it rather savagely upon its original release. There are many others who still consider it the ultimate sellout by the biggest figure in the music at the time. Certainly Bitches Brew and Jack Johnson had their share of naysayers, but the the music that transpired first on In a Silent Way had its roots in the final second quintet recordings: Water Babies, Miles in the Sky, and Filles de Kilimanjaro. Bitches Brew took its cue from In a Silent Way and moved it further, creating more rock-like jams based on vamps and motifs rather than chord changes. Jack Johnson took it still further, but the notion of soloing was still a very prevalent thing, as it had been on Bitches Brew. But On the Corner, while related in terms of groove, is a further extension of everything from In a Silent Way on; it is worlds away from any of them — including the material that produced Live-Evil in 1971. The reason is simple — everything came down to only two things: rhythm and sound itself. Serious questions were being asked in the making of this music, and where it was going only manifested itself in the travel. How low could you go? How little could you play? How much space was necessary to get the groove to move and what would you fill it with?
Water Babies, Kilimandjaro???  I thought those were straight jazz albums,why not go back to the Gill evans trilogy (Porky, Sketches and the third one) in that case???------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: February 12 2008 at 08:40
Hi Dick, always nice to hear your opinion on things, I agree with much of what you are saying but gotta disagree with one thing. As far as mainstream progressive rock acts go you can hear a clear Miles influence in the music of King Crimson (there's a jam on the Great Deciever CD that sounds like it was lifted from Miles' Live at the Fillmore) and the underated Jonsey, check out their album Keeping Up. If you consider Santana mainstream progressive, check out Lotus. Anyway, as to whether or not he belongs on PA ... ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: April 05 2008 at 07:53
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Is it possible to do a selected discography for Davis or is that to half assed? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 29 2008 at 18:18
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im for Miles on this site. Is he here yet? any news? if you did the selected discography thing, where would you draw the line? Miles in the Sky? Kind of Blue? E.S.P.? and dont forget about his 80's albums. the early 80's albums are phenomenal and are just as essential as his 70's fusion albums. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 29 2008 at 18:21
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to quote myself from another thread i hate that this site has a sub-genre called Jazz-Rock/Fusion, yet Miles Davis is no where to be found! i thought this site was supposed to be the most comprehensive guide to progressive rock. Well that's exactly what Miles Davis did. He progressed rock by incorporating it with jazz, free jazz, funk, space, and made music that was waaay ahead of his time. He did it before anyone else did, minus Larry Coryell, but he was the first to popularize it and exploit its potential. On The Corner (1974) was not recognized immediately by some people as good music. Some thought it was garbage. It took over 20 years or so for people to realize he was doing things people didnt think of doing until the late 80's. Now it's considered to be one of his best albums. Is that not progressive or what??? "oh but he has too many jazz albums to be here" most of the artists in the jazz section all have a number of jazz albums. so what? the description says that it includes progressive jazz (which is what jazz is anyway) ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: akin
Date Posted: April 29 2008 at 19:12
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I just occured and I don't know if it is valid, but maybe these cases (PR or full prog) should be answered with a simple question and the answer for the question: What was the main genre of the artist? Miles Davis - Jazz. So PR David Bowie - Anything but prog. So PR Yes - Prog. So Prog Genesis - Prog. So Prog Moody Blues - Prog. So Prog Dream Theater - Prog. So Prog I don't know if it works, but I think it is a good parameter to determine if the artist should be considered for a full-blown prog genre or not. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 06:48
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Miles Davis is nothing more than an attempt to try to cash in on his inherent coolness cache. The rock n roll hall of fame would include him , just the same as some here would - for little more than a few albums where he kind of almost nearly played a type of music that sort of fit in with whatever genre the "wanting to be seen as cool fools" are part of. Or for simpler reasoning - count the number of albums Davis put out. Then count how many, i.e. the percentage/ratio etc ..., actually would meet the clearly loose requirements posited by the wanna be cool by association crowd. give it up, he's a jazz guy. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 11:21
mailto:M@X - M@X made it clear that the entire discography (at least the studio and live historic recordings) had to be entered.
But I'd prefer to see Miles in JR/F than in PR, should he be included. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 12:15
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I repeat my position/admonition. I think it is just an effort to try and somehow add some "hipness" to PA by including a great & legendary musician. As a previous poster mentioned - next do we add Coltrane ? Brubeck's imprint is big, does he fit in here. How about Duke Ellington? I believe he wrote a few pieces named with "classical music terms". The Louis Armstrong back catalogue could fuel an all night riff reverie, for the musicologist interested in seeing how many musicians copped his riffs, tempos & solos. And yes, that would include blues, jazz AND rock players, proggers amongst them. Thelonius Monk, Ornette Coleman, Sun Ra ... anyone off the beaten path in Jazz could be crowbarred in if we consider that they may have been even the smallest of influences on prog. Yet, many of those 70s prog guys got off on Elvis, right. So we get Elvis in, 'cause his melding of various american musiques showed the white people what could come about when you put music from various sources - ethnic, genre, period, style, era etc ... And if we really want to pay ultimate homages to those who contributed to prog history, well , how about Oohg, who invented the 7/4, 13/5, 3/2 and various other strange & exotic meters that get thrown about on these hallowed (digital) pages. It seems like we sometimes try to incorporate musical acts that have a legendary status or massive hip appeal so as to point out how cool we are. Judas Priest ? One album that might qualify as proto-prog metal, maybe. Miles Davis, he's got like what , 100 albums, and because 3-4 were jazz fusion, even if Bitches Brew is the only one that gets mentioned most of the time, we should automatically say, YES THIS IS A PROG GUY. David Bowie ? Maybe, but even then , what a few albums mid-career that were somewhat experimental ... Hell, BTO had a few jazz tunes scattered through their oeuvre. But it would be a stretch to even begin to say that they were jazz rock (and that's what those tunes were referred to as) And even some prog folkers are questionable if only because they seem to here due to having put out only one or two albums that happened to have multi-part compositions, with no parts that strayed too far from the folk genre mode. Can we get Dylan in here ? Seems he wrote a few long song poems in the 60s. Proto-prog-folk, any one ? Please, let's rein in our enthusiasm for certain acts enough to see that they need not be here to be artistically valid. And while we're at it, let's tell this Debrewguy to rein in the unraveling rants on refusing revered riff meisters entry.... ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 12:21
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well, it's a strong position but plenty feel that electric Miles Davis should have been considered and included as prog all along. I know it can only be a retroactive addition now, but if we were paying attention from the start then he'd long have been in the archives.
this is also my argument for expanding in other directions; once certain bands are in we'll wonder why they weren't always so. ;P ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 12:22
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deleted double post. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 12:24
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zomg debrewguy sandwich ;P I read your post the first time but you can't use your opinion as a barricade to so many others ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: bluesynight
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 13:32
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the guy is great, correct me if i wrong but its jazz, pure jazz.
------------- The Irish gave the bagpipes to the Scotts as a joke, but the Scotts haven't seen the joke yet. (Oliver Herford) |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 13:47
Starting definitively with In a Silent Way (though Miles in the Sky should also be included as well), Miles Davis essentially created jazz fusion, not to mention that he recorded some of its best albums. This continued mainly through the mid-70s, although his 80s comeback has progressive qualities all its own (with loops, synths, and electronica). If we could only add his post '68 material, I imagine he'd have been on the site long before now, but the policy is "all or nothing," which is fine and dandy for bands who start out with one or three straightforward albums before progressing, but Miles has somewhere in the area of a (and I'm using the official term) crapload of albums before his fusion output. |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 14:04
I have seen Miles Davis on pretty much every progressive rock site but this one. Sites that people mention whenever a group like Sabbath or The Who are added. Sites that some fear would mock such inclusions. And yet there he is, mainly because we are the only one with an all or nothing addition policy, so the rest can just cherry pick.
Elvis chiefly mixed gospel, blues, and R&B, three genres which already went kind of hand in hand. No one will ever ask him to be added. You're just being difficult.
After the briefest of searches, I found 15 full-fledged jazz fusion albums (live and studio) not counting his 80s electronica experimentations, which would also likely count. Throw those in, and you've got around 20. Add in what films you can find and you've got a more than qualified entry (the only qualification is one full prog album, which he has 20-fold).
But why deny someone who by all accounts should have been here from the start just because it would take work?
It would be nice if you wouldn't use bands that have already been voted down and have nothing to do with Miles Davis to support your argument, yes. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 14:05
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Albums like Agharta, Get Up With It, Big Fun and Pangaea contain some of the finest progressive psychedelic ROCK ever made.
If you are not familiar with those albums then you should listen to them before you comment on what Miles did or did not do. In Miles' own words, he referred to his band on Bitches Brew as the "best rock band in the world". ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 14:20
He was very important to cool jazz.
He is a jazz guy, but he's also a jazz guy who was very important to jazz fusion/ jazz-rock. His music is cool, but I'd rather see him in the archives because he's relevant. I think he should be included in fusion. I thought he'd been okayed before. He had along career, but I think he has more than enough appropriate albums to make him worthy of addition. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 15:44
but it's ok for bands who were once prog years and years ago to release new albums all the time consisting of generally bad and/or boring music or not progressive music and flooding the database with these useless albums that we dont need on this site. that's ok. but we cant put music made by a man who never cared about the status quo and was ALWAYS progressing up till his very last days. Every album of his, even his not-so-good ones have progressive elements. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 15:49
yea but these guys didnt do rock, or at least not progressive rock. all those guys are strictly jazz (though i dont like using the term 'strictly') Miles is the only one who did. Coltrane might have had he lived on into the 70's, but that's another discussion for another day. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 15:57
Agharta At Fillmore-Live at the Fillmore East Big Fun Bitches Brew Dark Magus Filles De Kilimanjaro Get Up With It In A Silent Way It's About That Time Live at Philharmonic Hall Live At The Fillmore West Live Evil The Man With The Horn Miles In The Sky On The Corner Pangea Star People A Tribute To Jack Johnson Waterbabies We Want Miles that's a lot of jazz-fusion albums. all are jazz fusion. and dont be thrown off by some of the live ones, most of them have original material as well. that's more progressive albums than most of the classic prog bands on this site have. i dont even think i listed them all. 3-4 jazz fusion albums is a bit of an understatement. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 16:01
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Why would Miles be in Prog Related??? that makes no sense! the genre of Jazz-Rock/Fusion would not exist the way it does were it not for Miles Davis. I cant believe people would think he'd be put anywhere BUT jazz-fusion section. im going to stop and let other people post now. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: April 30 2008 at 16:44
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I think anyone would agree that Miles belongs in fusion, the original post that suggested proto-prog was from a newbie who may have been unaware of the different categories and their definitions.
I know it took me long enough to understand the different genres. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 12:14
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Our problem - and has always been a problem - is while being carried away with too many genres and sub-genres (several made up here and meaningless outside PA), a band or artist gets lumbered with a single genre tag. Yet again I call for each and every artist to to be tagged with more than one genre tag , and best of all, specifically tag an artist's albums, hence we could happily and more precisely indicate, for instance, Kind Of Blue was 'jazz', Bitches Brew was 'jazz funk' We Want Miles was 'jazz rock', others 'be bop', 'post bop', 'cool jazz', etc.
Sorry to say, to label Miles Davis 'proto-prog' is (to borrow from the late John Peel): bollocks, absolute bollocks. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 12:19
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Miles Davis doesn't belong on this site. He is a jazz musician, plain and simple. If we include him, we might as well include Beethoven because prog uses classical music. The point of the jazz-fusion section is for jazz-fusion bands/artists who played songs that are proggy as well. Miles Davis is clearly jazz-fusion (at times), but in no way is he prog.
That said, The Velvet Underground is long overdue for proto.
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 12:58
Point of information. As one of the main driving forces for jazz rock fusion to be here originally, I have to say your definition/reasoning is two thirds right and one third wrong.
The fusion of rock with jazz in the early days of progressive MUSIC was there from at least 1967/68. especially where a rock tune took on board a jazzy solo - check out Timebox, BST, Chicago, Soft Machine (and their reference was more likely to be John Coltrane than Davis), Nice (and their reference was more likely to be the Dave Brubeck Quartet than Davis) - and Tasavallan Presidentti were doing this into the 70's (e.g. Lambertland). The underground jazzmen such as Charles Lloyd, Larry Coryell, Herbie Mann, the young Breckers, were trying merge rock from the jazz direction - 1966 liner notes for the Free Spirits album (Coryell's earliest recording) talked about playing music which was a hybrid of the Beatles and John Coltrane - whilst Roger McGuinn was attempting to achieve a Coltrane-like stream of notes in his Rickenbacker solos with the Byrds (e.g the RCA studio recording of 8 Miles High). Simply(??), whilst more clear cut main stream progressive bands were creating underground music/artrock/progressive rock, there were rockplayers who were evolving into jazzers and concommitently the jazzers who were taking on board rock instrumentation, amplification and rhythms, and both of these were part of the underground music scene and progressive music-makers. Jazz rock fusion both can stand alone, be a sub-section of jazz or a main subsection of progressive music.
I trust you've noted my subtle use and so the slight differences between what was called 'progressive music '(look at the title and the contents of one of the first ever progressive samplers listed in PA) and what is called (and the more limited) 'progressive rock'. So some and perhaps a significant proportion of jazz rock fusion may meets your definition 100%, but not all the jazz rock fusion bands nor all their albums do this fully. Therefore part of Davis's discography is most relevant and compliementary to what is here already, but the recordings and what he performed live from the 40's to the mid 60's are clealry outside the scope of PA. If we can't include part discographies (which I relatively supportive of), why can't we tag individual albums with precise genre tags, which in turn would prevent reviews of those albums which are not "prog" - something I would dearly like to do to a number of bands here already who IMHO discographies only include a few prog albums?
------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 13:02
I guess I would say that this should be the defining characteristic for whether a jazz-fusion band is included.
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 13:38
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The mid to late 60's underground music scene evolved first in progressive music in the UK ('68-'69) . Initially one of the main sub-genres was 'rock jazz' , which quickly and readily evolved/became 'jazz rock' with more jazz being played in tunes, and to become 'jazz fusion' in the mid 70's. Zappa's music was 'avant garde rock', Soft Machine's intially and Pink Floyd's were 'psychedelia', and so on, represented other component parts of 'progressive music'. When Bitches Brew hit the scene when Miles Davis had clearly shifted to seek out the mass rock audiences by more fully adopting components of rock music, then we had no problem assimilating the album into progressive music. Think about Soft Machine who went from a soul rock band, to a psychedelic band, to an avant jazz rock fusion band in 3 years;they had become the epitomy of an really 'progressive '(music) band. It is that that part of underground music , which was originally limited to Nice/ELP, King Crimson, Renaissance, Yes, Genesis, Gentle Giant (and in that order), that came known by the preferred name 'progressive rock'. It was convenient for a band such as Roxy Music, that lacked some of the component parts of the mainstream prog bands in their music, to use the borrowed name 'artrock' - and because of the stage clothing Roxy Music would have also been part of the 'glam rock 'scene (e.g. Bowie, Sweet, even Gary Glitter, Be Bop Deluxe). Nobody had problems including the third wave of jazz rock bands, e.g. Mahavishnu Orchestra, Weather port, Return To Forever under the heading of 'progressive rock'' as well as being 'jazz rock' at the same time - i.e. back in the early to mid 70's these were equally weighted classifications. In deed for many straighter jazz rock fans, RTF's Yes-influenced, Romantic Warrior is as close as you can get to mainstream (instrumental) 'progressive rock' without losing the 'jazz rock' tag.
What we take here as 'jazz rock fusion' are bands who play 'jazz rock' but in the literal sense have progressed the genre, without necessary having 'progressive rock' mainstream relevance. For example we have a current thread on Jonas Hellborg's music, and whilst approx half his discography has distinct rock and jazz elements, the other half may frighten away those have gone no further than RTF's Romantic Warrior within the genre - but I hope not.. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 16:11
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today it is difficult to clearly divide the Jazz by the Jazz Rock and understand the real differences. However, it is clear that Miles davies should be included in PA. But he created or only been a member of the Jazz Rock movement?
In my opinion miles Davies should not be included in the PA as well to see he has not created the Jazz Rock, but only helped to be born and more for the presence of certain musicians in the line-up of his discs.
I must admit that include Miles Davies, I would ask you to insert even Ray Charles... And this would not be a good thing. And all this because even Ray Charles has influenced Jazz Rock movement and the contemporary Jazz scene (As Chat Baker or Count Basie, for example...).
Much better to include the musicians who played with Jazz Rock bands (see Jaco Pastorius, Joe Zawinhul, Chick Corea etc...) or bands like Ian Gillan Band because much closer to the mission of PA. I've one Chick Corea compilation, two Ian Gillan Band CDs and three Jaco Pastorius CD and all have shown me that my thesis is right. I also have a compilation (in MC) and one album (in CD format) of Miles Davies ... Yet I can not find, at the light of my new experiences, points of convergence with the mission of PA.
So I think that it is better to enter (as said) soloist phases of members of three Jazz Rock bands for excellence (Return To Forever, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Weather Report) which are not yet included in PA.
Is it not better to act like that? -------------
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 16:16
Eh? |
Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 16:28
Strange, no? At the same time should be included for historical merits but not for the mission of PA.
The two statements clearly opposite and meaningless but reflect my state of mind on the issue. I think it is better to proceed in the direction that I drew in the second part of my post. If nothing else because the nearest to PA mission.
P.s.: I hope I have explained what I wanted to say. -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:35
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Wasn't Miles shunned by the jazz community when he went electric? Miles is probably just a genre unto himself.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 21:00
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OK, this is what I've gathered - Davis's 100 or so albums include about 15 that are considered jazz fusion, this number including live albums. Then he also added synths, loops, and electronica in some of his albums. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Just thinking here mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm So once Davis gets in, Are we going to admit Joni Mitchell ? Miles Davis is one of music's legends, a giant astride more than just the jazz scene, in that he attracted fans from many other genres. And if I seem to have gone overboard, I must say that some of the irritation stems from the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame wanting to induct him. My point there being that he is not related to what we generally consider rock n roll or that catch all Rock music. The Hall's arguement was the same - that he made some landmark jazz fusion albums (or at least one, if you put it out to the general public). But it still comes off as trying to add hipness to the site. I do believe, though, that he is probably the perfect example for the idea of a separate "non-prog" section of artists or albums that prog lovers would be interested in. There would be no album reviews or commentary by the PA community. Just a simple bio by a collab or admin, covering the points of interests and how they relate to the prog world. Otherwise, we're going to face rants about the reviews on the non-jazz fusion Davis albums somehow abasing PA's standing in the internet prog community. So think of it - a separate section, not prog related, but of interest to prog. So Metallica's Master of Puppets & Justice get their little piece of PA property. Judas Priest's Sad Wings of Destiny sees an appropriate appreciation for it qualities. And not only Davis, but Coltrane, Brubeck, some other jazzbos, some contemporary composers (Steve Reich, Stockhausen, Edgar Varese), maybe others who indirectly have influenced prog music can be included on the site, without having to include their entire oeuvre for debate as to its' proggishness. Heck, if we had the manpower, we could set up mini-sections that expose the sources for lyrical inspiration or musical form; example J R Tolkien, Ayn Rand, Sci-Fi, folk traditions, political beliefs etc. IF PA is aiming for being the ALL-INCLUSIVE site for prog, why not bring it all under one roof ? And while we're at it, why not question my mental sanity for completely not contemplating the massive work required to achieve a suitable result  ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 17:26
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If the intention of this site is to be comprehensive, I think this question answers itself. The decision whether or not to include Miles Davis (or any artist) ought to be made based solely on his musical output, not on the difficulties posed by his addition, or the can of worms it might open, or the people it might upset. Particularly unhelpful are the arguments 'If artist X is added, then artists Y and Z ought to be added too' and 'Since we've added artist X, we now have to add Y and Z'. Artist X either has at least one album generally regarded as progressive, or s/he does not. My understanding is that Miles Davis has a sequence of albums considered progressive jazz/rock fusion. I've listened to a couple of them and can't hear it myself: great stuff, though for me the jazz motifs dominate the other styles. But my tastes are irrelevant. If this is generally regarded as progressive, he must appear on PA. And yes, I know it's easy for me to say, given the extraordinary amount of work required to put him here. But it could be done incrementally, surely? |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 19:42
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Let me be the first to introduce PA's two new subgenres - Proto-Canterbury & Proto-Jazzfusion. Our first inductees will include Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Oscar Peterson, Dave Brubeck, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Thelonius Monk, Dizzie Gillespie. Django Reinhardt may be added in the separate Proto-AndalusianJazz prog subgenre if there are any other artists that can be found to fill out the category. Proto-folk prog is under consideration, with Jimmy Reed, La Bolduc (Mary Travers from QC Ca), Dylan, the Kingston Trio. One genre / sub-genre that has been ruled out for now is Proto-Zean, as no recorded history has yet to be found; although some fossils have been dug(up). Proto-Prog Metal has also been effectively ruled out, because even modern day Prog Metal is really just too full of loud guitars. I mean, just how far can we expect to go ? ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 20:17
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debrewguy! I know you're making a serious point, but it's just a reprise of the 'if X, then Y' argument. I don't care about 'then Y'. I only care about 'If X'. Everyone has a line beyond which they find something unacceptable, and in many cases our views are different to the 'generally accepted' view. Of course, if there's no generally accepted view, we'll have to debate it endlessly ... In the case of Miles Davis, however, the generally accepted view is that a significant portion of his output was progressive jazz/rock fusion. In my view that ought to be the end of the matter. (But not of the debate, of course, debate is healthy.) |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 23:29
| If the site is going to have a Jazz/Rock Fusion category -- which it does -- it seems there's no way to exclude Miles Davis. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: May 14 2008 at 20:01
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This is the conundrum with Miles Davis - he made more than a few jazz fusion albums. However, he also made quite a few other albums that were not . Some musical groups have been included in PA due to 2-3 "prog" albums out of 7 or more releases . fFor some of our Prog Icons - 5, 6, 7, or 8 are easily classified as "prog" out of a 20 records or more career. But we have also seen a few groups excluded because they only had a few albums in their career that could be considered prog. In this fist group, we've seen Split Enz, Sabbath, Styx. In the second, our prog gods like Genesis, Yes, Rush and even Jethro Tull could be argued (I'm not making a point for or against) to have more "non-prog" albums than pure prog records; this being mainly because they've enjoyed long careers with 20-30 albums to their name. With Davis, my arguement is that while he may have put out more than a couple of albums that influenced or were considered jazz fusion , this does not represent the majority of his output, nor for the most part, do these LPs serve as the main basis for his status as a legendary musician. I don't remember if anyone picked up on my comparison to Joni Mitchell. While clearly a folk singer, she did have an extended jazz influenced period. Do we include her in jazz fusion or prog folk based on these records ? And if we argue that Davis is a major influence on Jazz Fusion, does that mean Metallica has unjustly been excluded when you consider that many prog metal bands look to Ride The Lightning, Master of Puppets, and And Justice for All as templates for the direction their own bands took music in ? How about Stockhausen and Edgar Varese ? Do the Avant-Garde owe more than a little to their pioneeing efforts ? Maybe the thread that needs to be initiated, or rather the subject that needs debate is how to "quantify" requirements for inclusion at PA, whatever the genre. In the sense that, do we say that the majority of a group's music must be related to prog to justify its' place ? Do we allow groups that had a continuous period where their output was clearly prog, and is or was considered of some importance to the genre or subgenre ? Do we consider that most musical acts progress as their career advances, and may at a certain point become "unprog" (now there's a word fer ya!) ? How many albums, or what percentage of output do we set as a threshold ? Using the recent example of Judas Priest's being considered for Prog Related because of their first 3 LPs; I remember a few reviews that considered Rocka Rolla more blues based than later releases, Sin After Sin showing the first signs of the JP "sound, but being spotty quality wise, and then Sad Wings of Destiny being the album that could fairly be considered "progressive" in concept & composition without much arguement. After that, Priest becomes the Metal God, and progness is not even a memory. Then, flipping to the other hand, and using a fave of mine - Split Enz - that was included based on their first 2 albums, and one or two mid period releases out of some 10 studio records. The hard part would be determining these numbers without resorting to citing such and such a group's contribution. And it may be pointless, because then some resenters (i.e. sore losers) would have cause to revisit past defeats. And God knows there are more than a few intense debates that are best left done & decided. P.S. or maybe we add a very general sub-genre named porg (sic) that we could assign the iffy candidates so to make sure the purists cannot argue about the "progginess" of said acts. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Warhol
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 04:59
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How about the Gary Burton great album named "Duster"? There are tones of artist that could be described like been fusion (or proto-fusion if you want) and they aren't here. It's better to create a category where to put essential albums in this direction, not bands or artists. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 06:03
yes, that is the hard part, i.e. recently we've been looking at New Zealand band Dragon who's first two LPs were prog but went on to make five pop records, and if we are to stick to our guidlines they should be added somewhere (and may very well be) ..luckily it's self-evident that Genesis, Yes, Rush and Tull made iconic, impactful progressive rock regardless of later pop excursions ..same for Split Enz , that first record is definitive art rock no matter how you slice it and those early albums must appear at a prog site as this, so the whole catalog is included (this is an archives after all) ..and Split Enz are in Crossover, a full prog category, Sabbath is in ProgRelated which is an important difference |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 06:05
Its the pointless whole discography or nothing thing, that keeps this thread alive. Miles 68-74 = yes (I don't know his 80's output). If debrewguy knows the albums in darkshade's post, he would also know that they belong in jazzrockfusion. Its Miles with a very different band or bands. Imagine if he started calling it The Miles Davis Group in '68. Then this group would already been here. Same thing with Herbie Hancock, a couple of years later, starting with the Mwandishi albums. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 07:46
No no ... my point is how do we qualify a non-prog musician who has a portion of their output that is prog. Yes, Davis has more than one jazz fusion album. . My attempt at seeking a "criteria" is meant to see at what point do we say, "O.K. band X put out umpteenth records, and ? percent were or are prog.. there fore we can argue for their inclusion at PA". Please refer to my examples - Split Enz : 2 out of 9 studio albums, they're in. Metallica : 2 out of 10, not in; Deep Purple 3 out of ???, they're in; Dave Brubeck ? out of ?. not in (yet) Do you see my point ? If I've put out a hundred LPs, and 10 of them are heavy metal, and the rest are rock n roll or hard blues rock, am I a metal band ? Oh, and by the way, live albums, unless comprised of all new material shouldn't count, eh... ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 12:51
Personally I think Ms Mitchell is easier to deal with, simply with Hiss Of The Summer Lawns through to her 80's recordings with her ex-husband, you have many excellent examples of jazz rock fusion - which number exceed her earlier folk-oriented recordings. Shadows & Lights (even with the acapella contributions for the Persuasions), has remained in my top ten list of jazz fusion albums for a longtime- Metheny, Pastorius and Brecker are on fire on the record - but it is a pity the DVD version is a visual f***-up, however. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 13:01
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The jazz rock/Canterbury group are suggesting that one solution is to permit multi-labelling of bands/artists, e.g. Soft Machine would be canterbury, then depending on albums also be labelled psychedelic, or jazz rock fuson etc. This should permit tags other than those labelling prog bands to be used - but stop such albums being named other than in a discography - i.e. not being available for open review. Therefore with Miles Davis, by consensus certain albums would be labelled jazz fusion, or jazz rock or jazz funk and be open for review, but others labelled jazz - post bop, jazz -cool school, jazz- bebop wouldn't be reviewable. Similarly I would hope a lot of the early Beatles albums etc. would stop cluttering up the review section . ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 13:32
I get your point, and disagree. I'd much prefer the archives included two Split Enz, two Metallica and fifteen Miles Davis albums (and no Brubeck albums. he is just influence, while Miles is jazzfusion). Btw: Most Miles livealbums count in the same way Magma Hhai, Tangerine Dream, Encore or Can BBC. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 20:40
Yeah, but we wouldn't dare stop the Deep Purple reviews right ?  ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: May 17 2008 at 05:31
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Yep, Davis is certainly progressive! His music changed from Jazz, to Jazz-fusion and Free-jazz, to Funk/Jazz-fusion, to Hiphop! |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: May 24 2008 at 20:33
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any update on whether Miles will be added here? also, to add to the discussion, would it be possible if an exception was taken to Miles and only albums post-1967 be added to the site? that would help a lot, since his music prior, really has little to do with prog rock. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: May 25 2008 at 02:14
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Yeah it would be interesting to know what level of time or debate ensues before admin make decisions on inclusions. In Miles Davis's case I personally believe enough arguments have been made one way or another. Whom and when is the call made?
I vote for inclusion based on how influential this enigma was. ' Bitches Brew' must be one of the all time prog albums ever. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: May 25 2008 at 12:53
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Er, Bitches' Brew: is one of the most heatedly debated albums in the jazz world. Its' status within the prog world is not quite as high as you seem to see it. I've only been on PA for about 2 years now, and until this thread, very rarely saw Davis or this album mentioned. Which would be strange for an all time prog album ... ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 25 2008 at 13:33
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^ did a quick search. .and found 4 threads alone devoted to adding him... and it's a shame you aren't a collab and can't see the writeup on him one of the Jazz Rock experts did on Davis. I think his. .and the albums's status.. is as high as anyone would correspondingly hold up J-R as prog.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 26 2008 at 01:57
why not? and i mentioned in an earlier post that a lot of Miles' live albums consist of original material you cant find on studio albums. Also there's a lot of improvisation, so thats even more material. ALSO, different lineups interpreted certain songs differently. BTW whats the deal with Miles being included in this site or not? im getting tired of the waiting game ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 26 2008 at 07:29
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I alwasy believed Bitche Brew should be here and for some time I supported the inclusion of Miles Davis, not in Proto Prog, where he doesn't belong, but in Fusion which is his right place.
But an Administrator asked me...What about his pre. Bitches Brew discography?
Lets faced, the guy is correct, we would be adding a huge non Prog discography (54 pre-BB NON Prog albums to be precise and most of his post BB albums aren't Prog either), but what is worst,, we wouuld be adding to Prog Archives albums from 1949, when not even Rock was born...This would be misleading.
If there was a way to add Bitches Brew and a couple of his more than 100 albums, I'd say yes, but adding him....I have to believe the Adm was correct and I was wrong, his addition would cause more damage than good.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 03 2008 at 20:11
that's a shame........ dont get me wrong, i understand where the admins are coming from. i still say Miles should be an exception to the 'all or nothing' rule, since he's the only jazz guy to make such a transition from jazz to jazz-rock/fusion. And it's not like he went backwards either, he kept progressing into jazz-rock/funk, and the 80s which was jazz-fusion/electronic/funk/metal-jazz-fusion etc... he never made a 'jazz' album again. Miles Davis post-'67 is a completely different "band". everything post-67 should be added, with a mention in his bio of his previous work and why it does not correlate to the archives. i dont see why this would be a problem, and would make everyone happy. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 03 2008 at 20:52
That I don't agree, no exceptions should be made, once an exception is done, everybody will claim for a new one and we will have no excuses.
People will ask for one determined proggy album in a whole carrer and we will have to accept so the site will become anything but Prog Archives.
Hey if Miles Davis why not Meat Lof....Bat out of Hell is proggy?
Doesn't this argument reminds you of something that has happened thousand of times?
It's all or nothing and the policy must remain solid as a rock. If Miles can't be included because of his almost 100 non Prog Related albums, then sadly he should remain outside Prog Archives.
If the Adms and mailto:M@X - M@X considerall his 100 albums must be added, then OK.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 02:44
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the solution is a simple common sense one.... and one that has been used here my myself and my teams for some time with regard to artists who have extensive career discographies or artists who have large segments of their career that bear no relation to the site . When you add the artist... you add him and and the albums that bear relation to this site. If others want to add and review the other albums... more power to them. Remember.. this is a prog site... not Allmusic.com. If people want to 'complete' his discography... again.. more power to them M@X allows and wants that. Things like this should never hold up an addition... as I have been told by our admins before... add them.. and let everything else sort itself out. If people want his whole disography added.... let them do it. Everyone can add albums... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 04 2008 at 03:11
| Another way to look at this is that Miles did occaisonally have different names for his various earlier groups (ie Miles Davis Quintet etc). If you check out the different sections for Manfred Mann on this site, somebody did some clever "nitpicking" over specific band names so that Mann's earlier pop material could be left off of PA, unfortunately this resulted in Mann's brilliant Peyton Place soundtrack being excluded, but you can't win them all. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 05 2008 at 21:40
i agree. have his albums from Miles in the Sky onwards added, and if other people want to add more, let them go for it. Personally, I'd add Sketches of Spain and Kind of Blue (for their musical importance) then again, i'd probably add everything anyway, but only if i had the time.
this is true. now that i think of it, most of Davis' albums post-67 were credited to only him, and not a band or quintet. but this was true of some of his earlier albums too, so this is kind of irrelevant anyway. good point though. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 16:46
I'm a compulsive album adder. And even though there's a way to sneak them in, if they aren't "Miles Davis" titled albums, I'd leave those out. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 19:32
they're all HIS albums. everything after Birth of the Cool are Miles Davis albums, some just say "Miles Davis Quintet" ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 06 2008 at 23:59
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to me it is a no-brainer..... with a great heaping of common sense he'll go in as Miles Davis... as far as any earlier albums that people may add where there was some sort of group like 'The Miles Davis Quartet... or Quintet'. Just let common sense be the guide...as I alluded to before... Davis has more references across the internet than any artist here on this site... if the albums are generally credited to him as an artist on more specialized and complete jazz sites.. then they should be here as well. Can't think of any off the top of my head that wouldn't be. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 00:10
Fine with me, I was just trying to come up with a creative way to please the prog-rock purists and keep Miles' more trad-jazz off the site. Anyway, hopefully with Miles on the site some of these other artists will take more pride in their 'look' and stop wearing all that old hippie crap. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 00:16
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^ easy.... to be blunt... screw M@X's policy... and again... add them as people review them. can't think of more than a handful that will really get reviewed here. We'll add the pertinent albums.. and let the others twist in the wind... this is a prog site afterall.. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 01:40
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some of his more popular albums (fusion or not) will probably get reviews. It's the later 70s fusion albums and the 80s ones im looking forward to read reviews about.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 04:42
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I think not only his prog stuff but; ESP, Sorceror and Miles Smiles are also proto-fusion, roughly half of his career was prog. I also think Sketches of Spainj, Porgy and Bess were pretty experimental for the time
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 04:44
Anyone can add albums once the artist has been added. You won't be able to keep people from adding Kind of Blue ... ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 05:42
Sure they were. And Kind of Blue was maybe even more experimental for its time, but that's got nothing to do with it. Miles was always changing and experimenting, like many artists who's got nothing to do with prog. If being pretty experimental for its time was an argument in itself, we would have to consider virtually every profilic jazzartist of the sixties. Btw: I'm just joining in for the fun of it here. I'm perfectly happy with Miles being added. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: August 07 2008 at 05:49
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