Best Drummer
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Polls
Forum Description: Create polls on topics related to progressive music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4400
Printed Date: November 29 2024 at 17:45
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Topic: Best Drummer
Posted By: Calvo
Subject: Best Drummer
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 04:41
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Dream Theater is my favourtite band so my vote goes to Mike Portnoy. But I have to say that Neil Peart is the best. |
Replies:
Posted By: Miaugion
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 04:52
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Where are Manu Katche, Dennis Chambers, Vinnie Colaiuta, Simon Phillips, Mark Zonder, John Molo and Mark Brzezicki etc.? Neil Peart for me then. |
Posted By: Calvo
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 04:54
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It's impossible to list every drummer in the world in this poll
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Posted By: Miaugion
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 05:00
Err, they are not 'every drummer'. At least Manu Katche and Dennis Chambers should be listed as well. Oh, and I forgot to mention Trilok Gurtu. Ahem. 
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 05:11
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Prog:- Peart........... then Palmer,Hiseman,White,Bruford,Collins,Csorz and the guy who drums for Par Lindh. Non prog:- Bonham,Moon,Starr,Paice plus the Iron Maiden drummer..McBain(sp?). |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 05:11
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Neil Peart gets my vote. Collins, Bruford, Palmer & Bonham are also brilliant. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Miaugion
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 05:30
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Another hero ... |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 05:42
But you have the option of include more names to that list (25 in total??) and then have a couple of continuation lists as well. Incomplete (actually far from complete) polls aren't even fun anymore, and they tend say more about the limited horizons of the compilers and those fill 'em in - sorry but that's how I feel after being bombarded with too many far from sensible polls, here in prog Archive in the last 11 months. The only thing I've learnt there is bias towards Neil Peart - and this is at least the second poll to say so - but personally I don't buy it. However, having tried myself to compile a more concentual poll, by asking which names Progarchives' subscribers would like be included, but only got 3 or 4 responses, I know running "sensible polls" is difficult/impossible. How flexible is the system here and so that some persons create separate polls of 100 keyboard players, guitarists, bass players, drummers etc. (listing names alphabetically to reduce pollsters' bias) and giving everybody 3 votes for each poll to nominate 3 drummers (but not the same one three times)? Then again, who do you make drummers or guitarists 101 to 350..........................?
And named names in this poll? If Weckl and Bozzio are there, now firmly in the jazz rock fusion medium, why not Chad Wackerman, Vinnie Colaiuta, Gary Husband, Dennis Chambers (who seems to do more session work than most drummers, from straight jazz via jazz rock into prog rock), and then a long list of ecertas.? |
Calvo wrote:Posted By: 3rd Impression
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 06:50
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I'll go with Carl Palmer & Bill bruford.
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Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 06:52
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What about Christian Vander, Jaki Liebezeit, Chris Cutler, Daniel Denis, Pip Pyle, Pierre Moerlen and Billy Cobham? Bruford is my pick from the available options. ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: mikem
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 09:35
| I went for Collins because of the work he did with Brand X |
Posted By: maani
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 10:26
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As I noted in another similar thread, for me the determination of who is the "best" drummer (which is already a subjective idea) is made by asking a single simple question: who could play who else's parts? For example, could Peart play Bruford's parts in Crimson, Yes or UK? Could Collins play Peart's parts in Rush? Could Portnoy play Collins' parts in Brand X? Etc. In this regard, I believe the two best drummers in prog are Marco Matteuzzi and Claudio Trotta, both of Deus ex Machina. Either of them could easily step into Crimson, Yes, Rush, UK, Dream Theater, et al, and play those drummers' parts. However, with the possible exception of Bruford (and possibly Collins, maybe, given his work with Brand X), none of the drummers above would last four minutes in Deus ex Machina, especially when DeM is really moving... If you want to hear "frightening" drumming, listen to DeM's live album, Diacronia Metronomiche. Trotta's drumming on that album is almost beyond comprehension: no matter how fast or complicated they get, Trotta does not lose one second or miss one beat. And we're talking about live drumming, where you don't get a chance to overdub if you screw up. Peace. |
Posted By: arkitek
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 10:29
Mike Portnoy hands down 
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Posted By: The-Bullet
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 10:40
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Far from an expert here, but I'd go for Bill Bruford and Billy Cobham. Jazz seems to be the foundation of choice for upwardly mobile drummers. ------------- 
"Why say it cannot be done.....they'd be better doing pop songs?" |
Posted By: Cluster One
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 11:58
BRU(d)FORD! He's played with KC, YES AND GENESIS!
------------- Marmalade...I like marmalade. |
Posted By: Possessed
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 12:01
| Bill Bruford |
Posted By: legembor
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 13:19
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Ian Paice ------------- 
He is comming, He's the Giant, Touch the Giant |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 13:30
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Check out: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000002J2Q/ref=m_art_li_1/104-5031100-8251915?v=glance&s=music - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000002J2Q/ref =m_art_li_1/104-5031100-8251915?v=glance&s=music and who is present; it supports your case. |
Posted By: FloydWright
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 14:16
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Manu Katché and Martín López also deserve to be up there...
And I would like to vote for Nick Mason, but Jason Rullo wins. He's kind of unknown, so I figured I'd give him some support--which is well deserved! Check out his work on V: The New Mythology Suite to see why. Man, I am so, SO glad to see Rullo even get mentioned! |
Posted By: elpprogster
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 14:20
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Hello!!
PHIL COLLINS...
Roger, from Portugal |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 14:51
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The master... Carl Palmer I took this of him a couple of weeks ago in Venice... He still makes some great faces while playing... and he was playing 150%... incredible energy for someone turning 55 in 2 days. HAPPY BIRTHDAY, CARL!!!
------------- THIS IS ELP 
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 14:55
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Bill Bruford ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Swinton MCR
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 15:09
So thats who's playing the baddie in the new Doctor Who...He'll have to grow a beard.... ------------- Play me my song, here it comes again |
Posted By: Swinton MCR
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 15:11
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And I voted for (No peers) Peart..............of course ------------- Play me my song, here it comes again |
Posted By: arkitek
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 15:14
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Cozy Powell
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 15:17
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*Sigh* I go for "the journeyman" Peart,who appears to me, technically far ahead of the others.I'm listening to Burning For Buddy Vol II now and all the rock drummers sound fine to me.Whilst Peart was in awe of Rich and Krupa,he decided to play a different genre with different playing requirements- you cannot compare like for like.Prog Rock allows all its musicians to plunder different styles and genres,ie be more flexible than the relatively rigid constraints on the jazz,pop and reggae fraternity.
------------- 
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Posted By: vaportrail
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 15:59
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------------- I can feel no sense of measure |
Posted By: Ben2112
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 17:36
I voted for Peart because, well, he's Neil Peart  . But Bruford is a close second; I love the unpredictability of his drumming. You never know when he's gonna hit the snare, which I'm sure comes from his jazz background. He's the ultimate "asymmetrical" drummer as he never plays the same bar twice in a row.
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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 17:43
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Rod Morgenstein ? His drumming is still as fresh as in his beginnings with Dixie Dregs. And his solo drumming on the Dregs performance that appears on the 'Sects, dregs and r'n'r' (with a sampler of Rudess in the background) is AWESOME ! ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Lunarscape
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 17:45
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Had to vote Alan White since my favorite drummer wasnt listed ANTONIO FERNANDES....and no Curt Kress or Pierre van der Linden ! ! ! _______ Lunar ------------- Music Is The Soul Bird That Flies In The Immense Heart Of The Listener . . . |
Posted By: Ben2112
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 17:56
Anyone who is interested in Rod's drumming should give the first Jelly Jam CD a listen. He is incredible on that one. And it's a very good CD too, with John Myung on bass and Ty Tabor (King's X) on guitar & vocals. |
Posted By: plodder
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 18:00
| Carl Palmer for me. Much more versatile than the rest in the list. But the best drummer in my opinion has been mentioned before and that's Billy Cobham, who blows all those on the list away. |
Posted By: Valarius
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 19:31
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You all know I'm obviously gonna say Mike Portnoy.
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Posted By: CrimsonKing
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 19:55
Claudio Trotta is the best. ------------- RED EYE |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 20:02
Somebody told me Cozy Powell couldn't do a drum roll to save his life - a drummer who can't do one of the basic moves, can't be true - but coincidently I don't remember hearing him do anything like that on the 5 or so album I have with him drumming. Any one enlighten me??? |
Posted By: 3rd Impression
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 20:25
Really that old three fates,he sure looks well. I love the ELP band but don't know much about them.
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Posted By: CrimsonKing
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 20:29
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Welcome my friends to the show that never ends...Carny Krap. ------------- RED EYE |
Posted By: 3rd Impression
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 20:37
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Hello Crimsonking.How long's this nonesence going to go on? Have i upset you in any way? Thanks
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 20:42
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LOL...just kidding, don't flame me. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi"> 
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Posted By: Ben2112
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 21:15
LOL good one! Unfortunately, that is many modern musicians' idea of a good drummer. |
Posted By: billyshears'67
Date Posted: March 18 2005 at 22:05
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TERRY BOZZIO Billy Cobham's my fav though. Peace & take care |
Posted By: starofsirius
Date Posted: March 19 2005 at 00:31
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Andy Ward! ------------- "I'm in a freefall like a snowflake falling down down down down down." |
Posted By: Hierophant
Date Posted: March 19 2005 at 00:51
| portnoy = overated |
Posted By: Tarkustra
Date Posted: March 19 2005 at 01:06
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^ So is Peart! ------------- When you speak, is it you that hears? Are your ears full? You can't hear anything at all. |
Posted By: Valarius
Date Posted: March 19 2005 at 06:23
| What he said. /\ |
Posted By: Passionist
Date Posted: March 19 2005 at 06:43
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It's Neil Peart. Can yuo doubt it? NO
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Posted By: Manunkind
Date Posted: March 19 2005 at 07:30
Just as with the guitarists, I can name neither a best nor a favourite, since they all compliment one another to my ears. But Dave Weckl with zero votes ! That's plain wrong.------------- "In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: March 19 2005 at 11:54
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Here we go AGAIN : Who is? What is? The best this, the best that the best WHATEVER! WHAT IS THE POINT OF POSTING A FREAKING SUBJECTIVE TOPIC LIKE THIS WHEN YOU GET REPLIES LIKE BILL BRUFORD HANDS DOWN THEN, NO WAY MAN, MIKE PORTNY HANDS DOWN THEN, YOU GUYS DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IT'S NEIL PEART and on and on and on and on and on and on................. For some reason I voted for Carl Palmer, I don't know why maybe it could be because I had a friend in high school who was the Carl Palmer incarnate. Carl was his drum hero while Guy Nadon was my drum hero. It was good as young musicians to have our heroes. Maybe these topics should be re-worded. And even though I responded to another thread about jazz drummers recently in the Musical instruments and equipment section naming my drum hero as the best jazz drummer I guess what I really meant was that Guy was my (and still is my hero). I would just like to say also that that was a cool photo of Carl that Three Fates posted. ------------- |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: March 19 2005 at 11:57
Vibe is the best drummer !!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: March 19 2005 at 12:06
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Yeah ! Velvetclown just resolved this argument /debate I'm the best drummerof them all! I'm even better than Ringo! So there! ------------- |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: March 19 2005 at 12:11
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Nuff said !!! ------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Bartsboys
Date Posted: March 19 2005 at 15:57
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Have to say Neil Peart, Watch Rush in Rio, for 51 (?) Outstanding!!!! Right off the record! They don't call him the Professor for nothing!!
------------- This World is Totally ...... |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: March 19 2005 at 20:33
But everybody is better than Ringo, unless he's narrating Thomas The Tank Engine  |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: March 19 2005 at 21:22
| My favorite drummer is Mark Zonder of Fates Warning. |
Posted By: Yams
Date Posted: March 20 2005 at 01:45
| Bill Bruford. His career in diverse genres is testament to his greatness. |
Posted By: Marcelo Xanadu
Date Posted: March 20 2005 at 04:49
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Neil Peart with any doubt! :] ------------- http://www.lastfm.pt/user/Marcelo_Xanadu/?chartstyle=basic10" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Rob The Plant
Date Posted: March 20 2005 at 19:40
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Bonzo is the most distinct, original drummer I can think of. His solos are the only ones I can really enjoy, although I like Tank. I went with Bonham though. Different drummers worl for different bands, like all other musicians no? ------------- Collaborators will take your soul. |
Posted By: Rob The Plant
Date Posted: March 20 2005 at 19:44
Oh yay he's back! YAY YAY! Yippie yay! We can all rest now. ------------- Collaborators will take your soul. |
Posted By: The Prognaut
Date Posted: March 20 2005 at 22:32
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Mattias Olsson
------------- break the circle reset my head wake the sleepwalker and i'll wake the dead |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: March 21 2005 at 00:19
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I don't know Land... that guy looks like he's sitting in the middle of a mushroom patch... Good to see you back, tho! ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: Eddy
Date Posted: March 21 2005 at 00:22
| nothing can beat the jazzy madness that bill bruford can bring into music! |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 21 2005 at 00:30
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Bruford and Phil Ehart from Kansas, both are the best IMO. Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Tristan Mulders
Date Posted: March 21 2005 at 13:37
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Mike Portnoy for me ------------- Interested in my reviews? You can find them http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=784 - HERE "...He will search until He's found a Way to take the Days..." |
Posted By: Pylo
Date Posted: March 21 2005 at 14:28
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Hello, The best is Guy Evans (Van der Graaf Generator) but he's not in the list So my vote goes for Phil Collins |
Posted By: RockFire309
Date Posted: March 21 2005 at 15:25
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Peart and Portnoy...no questions asked.....a drum battle between these 2 would be earth-shattering!
------------- "If you open your mind for me, you won't rely on open eyes to see..." |
Posted By: Richardw
Date Posted: March 21 2005 at 15:37
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Vinnie Colaiuta. The Master.
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Posted By: billyshears'67
Date Posted: March 21 2005 at 20:38
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Art Blakey? Peace & take care  |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 21 2005 at 20:42
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Some greats there, no doubt, but it'll always be Mr and Mrs Brudford's son William, for me. Next Palmer, then Peart. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: MS Paragon GT
Date Posted: March 22 2005 at 00:37
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4 pages and no mention of Nick D'Virgilio. I voted Portnoy. Portnoy is God -Art |
Posted By: Logos
Date Posted: March 22 2005 at 00:37
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I gave my vote for Bozzio because he only had one. Come on, the guy is a living legend and a spectacular drummer!! |
Posted By: Cygnus X-2
Date Posted: March 22 2005 at 00:38
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And not to mention one of the biggest drum sets I've ever seen. ------------- 
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Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: March 22 2005 at 01:19
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First is Carl Palmer Second is Virgil Donati.... ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: illustrated
Date Posted: March 22 2005 at 01:36
| Woah... you have Nick Mason in there but not Danny Carey? |
Posted By: PROGMAN
Date Posted: March 22 2005 at 05:30
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Nick Mason!! ------------- CYMRU AM BYTH 
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Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: March 22 2005 at 05:39
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Pike Mortnoy
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Logos
Date Posted: March 22 2005 at 07:20
| Wow. Nick Mason .. he has to be the worst. |
Posted By: adelepiani
Date Posted: March 22 2005 at 08:01
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Would it be possible to add more names to the list? If so, I'd like to give my vote to Virgil Donati, if not, then it will go to Peart/Bozzio/Portnoy, they can be very different to each other, but I like them equally... ------------- ...Carpe Diem... |
Posted By: Zero the hero
Date Posted: March 22 2005 at 08:14
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I find it really odd that a poll could be put forward regarding a ''Best Drummer''.No such thing as a best drummer,every fan of their best loved band are going to vote for that drummer,it's inevitable.However each drummer has his own individulal style of playing,tricks,exemplary timing etc.Some drummers may pull off an energetic 30 min drum solo live,where as another drummer of a simular band may not entertain drum solo's,in either instance this does'nt make any drummer better than another.
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Posted By: Possessed
Date Posted: March 22 2005 at 13:32
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He's not THAT bad. |
Posted By: topographic2112
Date Posted: March 24 2005 at 19:38
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Neil Peart - great, great drummer and all-around percussionist. ------------- "Rock is the medium of our generation." - Yes - "Release, Release" |
Posted By: Infinity
Date Posted: March 24 2005 at 20:10
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Is this not the hardest poll ever? It's got to be Neil Peart. The actual lines are as important as the technical ability. Bruford on UK and Red by Crimson is pure class though. Not to mention Mr Collins' work on Brand X...and Billy Cobham! Check out John Theordore too from The Mars Volta........keeping it alive for us younguns....hehehe
R.I.P JHB
------------- I can't remember what I said I lost my head. __________________________ |
Posted By: Hierophant
Date Posted: March 24 2005 at 20:32
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drummerworld.com educate yourself.... today! |
Posted By: rick
Date Posted: March 24 2005 at 22:11
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my vote goes to bill bruford in this list but overall my vote goes to bobby jarzombek of spastic ink. the only way to understand why i voted for him is to see him in action at: http://www.spasticink.com/ - http://www.spasticink.com/ http://www.spasticink.com/ - http://www.spasticink.com/ http://www.spasticink.com/ - http://www.spasticink.com/ |
Posted By: rick
Date Posted: March 24 2005 at 22:18
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check him in action http://www.spasticink.com/bobaquanet.wmv - http://www.spasticink.com/bobaquanet.wmv |
Posted By: rick
Date Posted: March 24 2005 at 22:33
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still not sure he's got it! then check this out http://www.bobbyjarzombek.com/video/PC.rm - http://www.bobbyjarzombek.com/video/PC.rm http://www.bobbyjarzombek.com/video/School.rm - http://www.bobbyjarzombek.com/video/School.rm http://www.bobbyjarzombek.com/video/DS.rm - http://www.bobbyjarzombek.com/video/DS.rm |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 01:34
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Where is Manu Katche indeed!!! Sorry folks but no-one not even the technical wonder of Bruford can come close to Mr. Bonham of Led Zeppelin fame. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Moribund
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 05:41
| Pierre Van Der Linden (Focus) |
Posted By: Moribund
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 05:42
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Oh and best non-prog drummer: Stewart Copeland |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 15:22
But Copeland was prog before he helped invent regatta de blanc - he was the last drummer of Curved Air - and somebody here reckoned he was married to CA's Sonja! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 15:45
| I really like Carl Palmer. Listen to Toccatta and KE9 and the choice is simple. He is nothing short of Buddy Rich. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 15:51
| Dave Lombardo (ex Slayer) is a fantastic and criminally underrated drummer, and Paul Whaley (ex Blue Cheer) developed an incredible (although arguably accidental) style. Lars Ulrich of Metallica also used to be an amazing drummer until around 1991... |
Posted By: Manunkind
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 16:09
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------------- "In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 16:19
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I have just been listening to The Very Best Of Asia and had forgotten Palmer was the original drummer. I'm on track 4 and can see no reason whatsoever why he would be considered the best drummer(obviously I am already familiar with his work with ELP).He is just a very good drummer no more no less.Comparing him with Bruford and Peart is wishful thinking. -------------
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 16:39
| Dave Lombardo is a great drummer. Very underrated. He has the speed and technique, but also some creativity that people overlook. |
Posted By: Xanadu
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 17:08
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That australian dude...whats his name ohhh Virgil something and not to meantion that twelve year old boy, Tony Ruster, probably got that wrong, but that kiddo got THE speed. But in the end i think it ought to be peart or portnoy |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 17:53
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Posted By: Darth Nisis
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 19:10
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Bill Brudford But Jason Rullo is amazing too.
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Posted By: Zero the hero
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 19:35
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I'm sitting here looking at everybody blowing the trumpet for the best drummer...Why! I'll repeat what i've already posted: I find it really odd that a poll could be put forward regarding a ''Best Drummer''.No such thing as a best drummer,every fan of their best loved band are going to vote for that drummer,it's inevitable.However each drummer has his own individulal style of playing,tricks,exemplary timing etc.Some drummers may pull off an energetic 30 min drum solo live,where as another drummer of a simular band may not entertain drum solo's,in either instance this does'nt make any drummer better than another.
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Posted By: MS Paragon GT
Date Posted: March 25 2005 at 22:47
Virgil Donati? If so than +1 VD is fantastic with Planet X. Still suprised noone has mentioned (or probebly never heard of) Nick D'Virgilio (Spock's Beard) -Art |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: March 26 2005 at 02:03
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As usual, you're way off base. You can't compare his work in Asia to anything he did before with ELP or afterwards with ELP, Qango and his own band. If you haven't heard it all, or seen him live, you really can't say that. Carl did dumb down for Asia... he'll even tell you that. You're in the UK... you should attend one of his masterclasses.. and then come back and tell me that...
------------- THIS IS ELP
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