Boston???
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43401
Printed Date: November 29 2024 at 18:01
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Boston???
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Subject: Boston???
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 13:50
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Every once in a great while I think of a band that I just assume is included here only to find out that they are not. In the past, those bands have included:
The Who (later included as proto-prog)
Todd Rundgren (not included, but apparently could be if somebody was willing to step up and do a bit of work on it.)
So today I noticed that Boston isn't on here.
Ok, I'm not claiming that they are symphonic prog or anything. If they were eventually included I think that prog related (or just maybe crossover prog) would be their home.
I'd base their inclusion on the strength of their first two albums (especially the second one.)
Boston has claimed that they were striving for a sound that mixed the styles of Yes and Led Zeppelin. I doubt that you could conclude that they were entirely successful in this, but for those of you who can remember back that far, the Boston sound was extremely innovative at the time and aped a few laters by countless bands (including other prog related bands listed here, most notably Asia.)
So would you think that they deserving of inclusion as prog related?
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Replies:
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 13:57
| Boston have been suggested various times, but people don't seem to agree about their inclusion. Remember that here we have to add a band's whole discography, and that would include "More Than a Feeling" too. However, you do have a point, and a strong one... If the Admins are listening, they might discuss the inclusion of the band in Prog-Related. As to Xover, I am not sure the team would agree. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 15:55
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Personally, I'd favour them (strange that until I voted there were no Yes votes). I believe a number of their tracks and albums have a relationship with Prog. "Third stage" for example is a complete concept album with some well structured songs.
The problem with this sort of poll is that even though they are being proposed for prog related, many will vote NO on the basis they are not prog.
With my Admin team hat on, just to clarify the Admin team don't instigate additions to Prog related, we provide decisions when someone comes to us with a definite proposal to add a band.
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Posted By: sircosick
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 16:07
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That thing of the majority's disagreement when it comes to add a band is a known issue, isn't it? And Ghost Rider said: Remember that here we have to add a band's whole discography, and that would include "More Than a Feeling" too. And when they added Radiohead, didn't they think that implied to add "Creep" also? So, that's definately not the point. As for their progressiveness........ I'd give 'em a chance in prog-related, since that "sub-genre" isn't prog but has some influences (as far as I'm concerned). "Foreplay" is an excellent hard prog tune IMO..... then, is that enough to include them? The answer isn't mine,,,, it's for the teams who are on that. ------------- The best you can is good enough... |
Posted By: cynthiasmallet
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 16:11
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I say No. Once Boston are In, that will open the door for the likes of Journey, Toto and Phil Collins, which will lead to the likes of Chris DeBurgh and Barry White. Before you know it we will be crawling around on our hands and knees flinging our own s**t at our PC monitors. ------------- Would you like to watch TV, or get between the sheets, or contemplate the silent freeway, would you like something to eat? |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 16:16
 That was priceless!Actually, of that list, I would say De Burgh belongs there more than any of the others. His early stuff was downright proggy in many ways, even now he manages to throw out the occasional proggy gem. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
cynthiasmallet wrote:Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 16:32
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I think that Boston would fit PR well, but am inclined to vote no as I tend to think that if a band ain't Prog enough to be seriously considered for a real Prog category, then it ain't proggy enough for this site. And I can't think of Boston as more than Prog-Related (even if I consider it to be definitely suitable for Prog Related due to some albums/ songs) unlike some bands in PR which I consider to have true Prog albums and some which are borderline Prog/Prog Related cases (which may fit Crossover, or may be considered for "stronger" Prog categories -- sorry can't think of a better way to put it now). But I won't vote. Prog or bust[on]! haha ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 18:39
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feeling like taking of a bite of this poor dead whipped horse... why not.. can't honestly deny them ... they were defintely prog related. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 18:45
ahhhhh.... no. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: cynthiasmallet
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 18:49
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Having listened more closely to their works, i retract the s**t flinging comment from earlier this evening. However, I still don't think that they are proggy enough. ------------- Would you like to watch TV, or get between the sheets, or contemplate the silent freeway, would you like something to eat? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 18:53
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They are the icons of AOR, that disqualifies them, it's just better POP than the average but nothing more, no way they should be added.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 18:54
Oh but that was the best post in this thread so far. You can't retract.
I've never been much of a Boston fan, but at the same time, can see that they took a lot of their influence from some of the heavier prog bands, so prog-related is probably a good place for them. They are definitely not prog though, xover or otherwise. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 18:58
exactly .. though there will still be people that say they should be here because they aren't prog  If they don't want these bands suggested.. they should have the damn Prog RELATED category.. but since they do... they should be there. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:04
Not accurate Bob, it has been done before
The question here is clear it's askd if they are PROG RELATED, and 73% of the members voted NO. please Bob, we know how to read, i don't believe they are related in no way with Prog.
I believe the opinion of the members is clear,. Boston is no}tven Prog Related, the polls are clearly written, they mention Prog related, nopt Prog, so why must we assume people don't know what they are voting for?
Iván -------------
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[26.83%]Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:14
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^ it's a good thing then we still have members here ...and an admin
team that actually evaluate groups fairly without just hearing a name
and a label and voting based on that hahahhah. How many groups
have failed such polls Ivan.. only to be voted in by a panel of
objective people... the admins. Those polls are worthless ...
always have been. We had people that wanted ELO not in PA's at
all... why... because they thought of the group as a disco group.
Enough said on the polls. Obviously the admins have never put
this up to a vote. They should.. if only to have the definitive
word on this.. so they aren't suggested yet again.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:23
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I fear we would be loosening it up a little too much if we allow Boston in. Personally, I like the band, but just because they have a big sound doesn't really make them prog. I voted no. E ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:29
that door has been flung wide open Eric... lets face it.... PR additions are 'if x then y'.. because they are not .. and can not be judged individually. Simply because you are not talking about adding a group IF they prog.. or rejecting a band because they are not prog. That is black and white has has nothing to do with any other group. PR is different... you are talking shades of prog.. and once the benchmark is established.. especially with well known groups... you either appear to be playing favorites.. or just doing a shoddy job if you pick and choose who is added or not. You have to ask... is Boston as Prog Related as some addtions ...if they are ...they should be here.. simple as that. IF not.. they shouldn't be. For what it's worth.. there were those who warned about the door being thrown open.. but the site is to be inclusive.. so that is what we have here. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: sircosick
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:54
That label of AOR is such a nonsense when it comes to add a band like Boston; they were responsible to resurface Classic Rock...... yep, classic rock more than "Pop" they are certainly (oh, neo-classic rock if you wish ).So I'd dare to say Boston is progger than Deep Purple, for example.... but only due to their protagonism on AOR scene, they shouldn't be added?  I'm not promoting their addition; I don't even care about it..... I just love them. But there are points beyond their addition that need to be discussed IMO. ------------- The best you can is good enough... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 19:57
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^ exactly.... lots of things to dicuss... other than tossing stupid labels around let's start with that bullsh*t about Boston being proggier than Deep firckin Purple  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 20:23
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Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 20:25
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Whaa?
Are we talking about the one album wonder whom are considered a staple calssic rock band.
No, no... no. ------------- 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 20:39
 I guess that means me as I am the only member of the Xover team who hasn't heard any of his solo work.....Ah Grud!
 Now Boston - you got me there too - I have no knowledge of them either so would be hearing them with fresh ears. But since Micky has already indicated "no" for Xover, that's academic.However I do agree with Logan - if a band cannot be seriously considered for a true prog sub, then they shouldn't be put in PR either. Any controversy should err towards Prog, not away from it (ie "X are far to Prog to be PR" type arguments). ------------- What? |
Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 20:42
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Strictly arena rock. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 21:00
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Dean... we can take up Boston for Xover.. but do recommend bringing
your athletic supporter with the big ass cup.. and even a
bulletproof vest to our meetings. We might need as squad to SAS
troops to keep us from getting mowed down as we enjoy our linguine and
chianti btw. I'll get you some Rundgren so we had put that baby to rest.... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: markosherrera
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 22:35
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT_jCPSGraohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_c9rBpLBo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT_jCPSGrao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_c9rBpLBo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_c9rBpLBo - AWESOME AOR band but not prog imo
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 23:03
thanks ... all us who thought they were can sleep easy now...say 3 times please.... http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42309 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42309 but thanks for proving my point why these polls are useless  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 23:35
Phil Collins and Toto both have a strong case for prog-related in my opinion. (Not that I'm a fan of Toto by any means.)
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 23:40
Start with Initiation, and then A Wizard, A True Star. The argument I've made with Todd is that if Utopia is included, so should he be, so judge him on that basis.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 00:01
Why is people obsessed with adding non Prog or Prog Related artists, instead of caring about real Prog bands?
Phil Collins has no reason to be in Prog Related, the definition is clear:
Phil Collins has never released a single Prog song or similar to Prog or related to Prog in any sense during his solo career, so it's absurd, the relation must bne MUSICAL.
Phil Collins dioesn't fall in any of those situations.
Toto is ridiculoyus, after Roxana, Hollyana, Hold the Line, Africa, Georgy Porgy, etc etc etc, that are simple POP tracks blended with diluted Jazz, they released one song that could be considered remotely related and that's Child's Anthem, one song in more than 20 albums doesn't justify their inclusion.
Neither Boston, not a single Prog or similar to prog or related to prog track.
Check Prog bands, this is a Prog site.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 02:41
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It would be clearly idiotic to claim that a guy who PLAYED in one of the seminal progressive rock bands was not the slightest bit influenced MUSICALLYy by what he had spent a decade playing., and no doubt Phil Collins fans, should there be any, could point out exactly where those influences manifest themselves. So condition #1 is clearly fulfilled for Collins, and a strong argument could be made on that basis for the Pocaros' as well.
As a recent thread has declared, prog-related is not prog. Your standards don't match your requirements.
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 03:37
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I hear what you say Ivan, and thankfully this thread has so far been devoid of such comments. In times past though, even though the wording of the question was clear, we still got posts saying "no because they are not prog".
For me, the question here is would adding Boston to the site bring in people who would be interested in prog? I believe the answer to that is a definite YES.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 05:47
I wouldn't want to pit the SAS against the massed ranks of the Prog Battalions, it would be a blood-bath
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 05:59
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Posted By: Lady In Black
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 06:00
And for me this is a case like the case of Journey or Toto (more Toto, of course!). ------------- It's dark... I've fear... I have strong pains... A serpent is being born... That badly I did, I? |
Posted By: Lady In Black
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 06:06
Improper sentence Ivan, because if PR isn't a genre this sentence isn't totally correct because It seems to make understand that PR is a genre, thing that isn't.
This is the motive for which they made these proposals of inclusions. It isn't clear the concept of family, to apply, according to me, also to true genres. ------------- It's dark... I've fear... I have strong pains... A serpent is being born... That badly I did, I? |
Posted By: Casartelli
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 08:51
When thinking about prog, Boston is not the first name that comes to my mind (nor is Toto or Journey), but the argument can be made for some of their single songs. I'm in favour of the fact that complete discographies are here (if not, discussions could really go on forever), but it's clear that a lot of bands are only partly prog (Genesis as the fairest example). The same goes for Prog Related and Proto Prog: most included bands were only fitting the PR or PP definition in a part of their career.
Perhaps we can define that 'part' a bit, rather than making the obvious popular laughs?
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 11:22
In first place, if nobody tells you, I won't accept to qualify my opinions of idiotic, this is disrespectful.
Second: In his SOLO CAREER Phil Collins din nothing related to Prog, we don't add a musician because he played in a Prog band, if not Billy Joel would be here because he played in a semi Prog band called Attila.
Focus in his solo carrer. noty a single Prog or Prog Related song.
BTW;: For the person who accused me of having heard all Toto, I stated before, I have all Toto albums because my sister is a fan, and I don't see anything Prog in them.
And saying Prog Related is not Prog doesn't mean the artist doesn't has at least to be related MUSICALLY.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 11:44
Now the second:
Surely my English is not as good as a native born USA or British, but I believe I was clear, I said Boston doesbn't have a similar or nearly similar or Related Prog Track.
BTW: If you read the Prog related definition, my name is in the botton, because I wrote it and was approved by the Adms and mailto:M@X - M@X so I believe i know what Prog Related means.
The last sentence, is a request for people to worry for Prog bands not for doubious related bands.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 11:50
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Ivan, I was not suggesting for a minute that you had misunderstood the poll question!
Looks however like you may not be reading mine though.
 I said "bring in people who would be interested in prog". |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 12:07
You are engaged in a paradox of massive proportions here. You claim that prog related is NOT progressive music, but you justify rejecting music because it isn't related musically (i.e. doesn't sound like prog.) Well, what is progressive music except something that sounds like it? The fallacy should be quite apparent to anyone. You are refusing to let in bands to a genre that is there for music that doesn't sound like prog because the music doesn't sound like prog.
You probably need to read that a couple of times so that what you are really saying has a chance to sink in.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 12:55
I think the Dune soundtrack was as close as Toto got to prog.
 ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 13:15
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 13:40
This may be the most interesting comment in the whole thread, as it provides a clear and concise reason why Boston should be included, why Toto should be excluded, and why Phil Collins solo should probably be excluded as well.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 13:47
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^ they didn't make Bob an admin just for his looks alone you know
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 13:48
Skipping all of the other obtuseness, this is extremely clear. Boston received clear musical influence from this genre, which has been thoroughly documented, and which I cited in my original post.
The "or" in the above thread is a conjunction that signifies that if one of the conditions (such as the one mentioned above) is true, then the statement is true regardless of the other conditions. Boston received clear musical influence, hence Boston is prog-related.
If you support the definition you cite, you support Boston's inclusion.
And yet you still persist in your obtuse insistance that to be prog-related something must sound like prog. That's silly. What sounds like prog IS prog!!!! Not prog-related, prog!!!! If you don't like the sound of Boston, that's fine, but don't pretend that you are following the definition instead of your whims and preferences.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 14:23
Seems the only obtuse are you, I don't believe Boston received Prog influence,Boston is AOR = Classic Rock + POP, as simple as that.
I don't say a band must sound like Prog to be prog Related (PLEASE QUOTE ME), that's what you add because of your lack of understanding, A BAND MUST BLEND AT LEAST SOME PROG ELEMENTS....BOSTON DOESN'T BLEND THEM....AS CLEAR AS WATER, NOT ONLY FOR ME BUT FOR THE HUGE MAJORITY OF THIS FORUM MEMBERS.
But who cares, probably they will be added and each time our identity will be more lost.
Iván
BTW: Don't try to teach me to uinderstand the definition of Prog Relater, I WROTE IT!!!!! -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 14:33
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hahahhahah.... let me step in between you two, here before someone's head explodes here You don't... we don't.... admins define PR... you all are just getting yourselves worked up for nothing. I don't... and you don't have any say in this.... if someone proposes it to the admins... they should and will hopefully evaluate them. Let's give it rest.. for your sakes.. and ours as well. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 14:40
Ghost of Morphy wrote:
Just one more thing Micky before i stop this.
Something that shouldn't be done is changing my words, Ghost of Morphy has said i claim that to be Prog related, a band must sound luike Prog.
I checked the 10 posts I wrote in this thread, and never said that:
I have used the terms:
1.- Related
2.- Close
3.- Similar (just as a pleonasm)
4.- Influenced
5.- Influential
But I never said that Prog Related has to sound like Prog.
So please, if you are going to quote me Ghost of Morphy, please use thje words i use, ddon't invent phrases that I never said.
BTW: You never documented anything in your first post, you only gave your opinion, that for me and 7 out of each forum members is wrong.
That's all.
Iván
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 14:40
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oh well... I tried people
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 15:58
I don't believe that's the case on either count. I won't get into details about their albums but I believe the evidence is there on all their releases.
27 votes in total so far. Hopefully that's not a majority of our forum members!
(By the way, I don't have my admin hat on in this thread
) |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:08
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Chowduh, anyone?
Perhaps we can settle this over a nice steaming bowl? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:09
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well Bob if the admin hat is on.... lets cut the crap about trying to tell you all what PR is about and discuss Boston... I think everyone with half a head would agree that they fit in PR... but the question is... should they be inducted. Is the policy is to be ALL prog-related groups... or the select ones that have some special relation to prog. I thought we on the XOver team had the finest line to walk.. we got nothin... on you all hahahha. Just what are YOUR thoughts, since the admin hat is off, on PR addtions. All... or select ones. Targeted to the site.. or a sense of completeness. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Neil
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:19
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No. A good rock band with an interesting sound but not prog rock at all. (Bit like Iron Maiden really) ------------- When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:21
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Personally, I agree with Ghost of Morphy that at the very least Boston is Prog-related. When I saw them live a few years ago I couldn't believe how progressive they sounded to me. They certainly can go toe to toe with pretentiousness with any prog band on this site. 7 to 10 years in between albums. Every note having to be in the perfect place.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:22
Yes Bob, it's not the majotity of members of the Forum, but yes the majority of the ones who care to vote, the previous poll I quoted had 41 votes and the percentage of rejection is higher.
Statistically this is a representive sample of the members of the forum.
I know you're not with your Adm hat on, because in Administrator issues, I wouldn't disagree, I respect the limits.
BTW: There is also another surprising thread,
In this case it was about Prog, but it's interesting to see how some opinions change depending in who defends or disagree's with them, the same person who when I said Boston was AOR replied:
^ exactly.... lots of things to dicuss... other than tossing stupid labels around
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43401&KW=Boston - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43401&KW=Boston
But this same person called Boston twice AOR in gthe same post.
Now, this is a paradox.
Iván -------------
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/new_reply_form.asp?PID=2032339&PN=1&TR=16">
Posted: June 17 2006 at 15:59Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:23
Just let me know when I can start flinging my own .... at my PC monitor.
But seriously...(sorry for the Phil Collins reference)...I've sort of changed my opinion on the whole PR thing in the last few months. If we're going to have a policy of inclusiveness, I think any band which sensibly could be considered as PR should be inducted. If the idea is to expand the scope of the site, then the criteria should be along the lines of what Bob said earlier about will it attract people to the site who might enjoy prog...and also, would it be something that prog fans would find value in. I see no problem in having a PR section that is inclusive as long as it remains distinctly identified as non-prog. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:28
I don't think that Boston would necessarily bring in people who would be interested in Prog - I think it would be more likely that people interested in Prog would become acquainted with Boston's music.
To my mind, only "Long Time" on their first album is even Prog-Related.
The rest is Smokin' classic rock - great stuff, but not related to the stuff we listen to here! ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:32
I have never cared for PR to be honest.... but if we have it... you might as well do it right. And for all the tales of the site losing crediblity and sh*t like that... this site is the same site that it was before Sabbath was included .... Zeppelin was included. I didn't agree with any of those.. .but you know...who really cares. I am not a mission to purify PA's .. only make my corner of it the best I can for the users here. The whole mission here is to serve the site users. And if these kinds of addtions help the site and bring new people in... I'll surpress my damned prog sensiblitiies to realize that this site isn't about me .. or my ideas... but about the users.. and bringing new ones in...so we can hook them with the 'good' stuff. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:50
 . Way to go micky man.Boston for prog related.  ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:51
Exactly, one song in a career, dioesn't justify an inclusion.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:53
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bahh.. ignore me ...I'm mounted WAY up high on the high horse this evening
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:57
Raise those fists and say YEAH!!!!!-------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 17:05
hahahhaha.. sure.... I'll raise them.. comrade!  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 17:12
Then obviously you either expressed yourself poorly or you are not remaining true to your original expression, as I have more than adequately shown that Boston fits your definition.
Your problem, as I take it, is that you reject Boston on the basis that they are a founding band of AOR. Many people here like to take the idea of "progressive" as a movement, not as a genre label, and I can assure you that at the time that Boston's first album came out, it was indeed a progression. (You brought up Phil Collins, I believe, where the opposite is the case.) Nothing quite like it had been heard before and it quickly picked up many imitators, including several bands who are labeled as prog-related or prog. And it's not merely a matter of classic rock combined with pop, as you so dismissively affirm. Again, in Boston's case, I've already covered this ground.
As for prog elements, let's consider:
1. Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives, covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, love, and madness.
Check.
2. Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies.
Check.
3. Prominent use of electronic instrumentation — particularly keyboard instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog synthesizer, in addition to the usual rock combination of electric guitar, bass and drums.
Check.
4. Inclusion of classical pieces on albums.
Check given for Foreplay and some other organ solos in classical style.
Next, on to the hairsplitting about "sounds like." When one gets to the point where you feel that you have to draw distinctions between "sounds like," "similar," "related," and "close," in order to prove a point, it is probably time to start opening up your mind instead of closing it.
And finally the ad hominem fallacy that it is clear to you and many others that they are not prog-related. What is clear to me is that you and many others are judging based upon your own personal taste instead of upon the facts presented. If you want to hold up a definition as a standard, you should follow it.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 17:33
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Posted By: sircosick
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 18:22
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PorgArchives seems to be inclusive until adding representative bands of their respective genres like Radiohead (from the alternative scene), Deep Purple -and more recently Black Sabbath- from the Classic Rock scene; the representative of the AOR scene would be, in this case, Styx. But that's just an impression, considerin' that the first couple of Boston releases are quintessential stuff in the general rock scene..... Now, don't get me wrong; by my very own, I'd never start a thread promoting the addition of Boston, but since they're mentioned, why not discuss them? They're one of the cornerstones of AOR, and that implies something. We all agree that they didn't influenced prog bands; but the issue in question is if they certainly were influenced by some prog..... For me, there's not a clear-as-water answer for that, as Iván has been stating all along this thread, since music is not so easy and "standard" to label in...... I find 'em very similar to Kansas (a band that, in fact, has always flirted with Arena Rock) and tracks such Foreplay/Long Time, Smokin' and The Journey sounds fairly proggish to my perception....... Iván has certainly a plus for writing the definition of PR, but isn't he a bit extremist by saying that Boston has equally chances to be added as Journey, Toto or even Europe? Excuse me, but Toto is mainly a pop band who emerged several years after Boston and Europe is simply hair metal...... so, let's not deny either some merit by Boston. IMHO. ------------- The best you can is good enough... |
Posted By: sircosick
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 18:26
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Referring to Iván's last post, Ghost of Morphy spotted some characteristic that Boston has in common with prog. Iván proved one by one that they're somehow wrong, but what if Boston has all those things together?? ------------- The best you can is good enough... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 20:04
and you have shown more insight then any of the crap thrown about in this thread.here's some more for you... it is something the some people here don't understand..... it's a notion called subjective analysis....music is not absolute... what you see... is simply is what you see... and what others see is what they see. There is no set guidelines for what is prog or not.. or ...God forbid ... Prog-Related .
We all see this stuff differently. Thankfully this site is a
COLLABORATIVE site.... and people here understand that others
will interpret music... and prog... and such things as prog
quotient differently. The problems happen when.... some people here get it ^ ... understand that and work together... and some don't and think they speak in absolutes and refuse to see that others might see things differently. a case in point. I was highly troubled to see that groups that others think are prog..were going to be moved to non-prog categories.. just because someone else comes along later and doesn't think so. Thankfully I see the Admins put a big damn stop sign to that. That smacked of a big lack of respect for the others that work here... and have contributed to the site. That smacks of one saying.. I know prog... and you don't. That is not how a collaborative site works. So Jorge.... that is where we are left...Ivan makes good points.. and Morphy makes good points.... now the jury weighs in as it should. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: sircosick
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 20:11
Eeh! At least have a pair of clappies, man. ------------- The best you can is good enough... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 20:16
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thanks!  I love clappies ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 21:09
You forget the main ione, the structure, Boston is a good band, but their music is Classic Rock blended with Pop, yes they mix some classical tunes, they have good lyrics and good vocakl arrangements, but there are thousand of bands non Prog that combine the same elements.
The three characteristics (I won't bother replying to the instruments they use because this is complete irrelevant) mean nothing if the structure of the music is plain Rock with Pop elements, they are a great Rock band, I hjave their albums, but they are not Prog or Prog Related IMO.
Iván
PS: Only replied because I was mentioned. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 21:38
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 21:50
I don't know about this. But if we create a new subgenre called "regional prog" or something like that? Then we could all all those geographic-related bands that aren't so prog but that somehow could end up here. Chicago, Kansas, Boston, Asia, America, and let's add Europe, Alabama, and any other you can think of... and peace will reign supreme.... ------------- 
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Posted By: sircosick
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 21:50
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Sorry Iván, but you was the first who mentioned at least Europe, specifically....... We shouldn't care about Toto, Journey or PC; we're talking about Boston. And did I refer to Dust In The Wind...? I find the average Kansas song (I've listened to PONR & Leftoverture) similar to some outstanding Boston early stuff.... such Foreplay/Long Time. And do not deny that Kansas has always been way more popular than any other sympho band: that's why I said they've always flirted with AOR. ------------- The best you can is good enough... |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 21:55
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 22:25
I find this to be offensive. I do not understand why you are so belligerant, I understand that having your fallacious resoning pointed out is unpleasant, but why should it provoke personal attacks?
Grow up. Move on.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 23:02
Not fallaciious, I quoted you and proved:
Every word I say is supported by quotes, even when you started in the Phil Collins issue, insisted on it and said that any person who don't believe he's influential for Prog (solo career was idioti, just to change your position to say that Collins and Toto were never an issue. That's saying lies and trolling.
Read your own posts before you start with the fake act of the offended guy.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Chris H
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 23:05
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peace...harmony...justice... ------------- Beauty will save the world. 
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Posted By: Mikerinos
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 23:07
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I like Boston, but prog rock they are most certainly not. ------------- 
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 00:38
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Melgar, I feel no further need to respond to your slanderous posts, your obtuse persistence in your own opinion, your unbalanced rants, your dishonest dismissal of what has been said or any other thing you say in this thread. Anybody who cares to can go through these posts and make up their own minds about them. Not that I suspect many people will care to make that effort.
Now let me once again offer you some very good advice that you would be wise to heed.
Grow up. Move on.
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Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 01:03
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Doesn't the simple fact of if people like Boston or not effect the original intentions for this poll , i personally like Boston so I'd be happy to see them here, but that shouldn't be the reason I vote Yes should it ? however if I am to consider Tracks Boston have Done like Foreplay , The Journey , The Launch , Walk On Melody there's little doubt Boston is prog related and should be added ASAP As far as Toto goes I believe they too had several prog related songs Child's Anthem, Hydra, Saint George & The Dragon , Home Of The Brave , the entire Dune Album many moments on their latest CD "Falling In Between" so maybe in order to bring this site up to speed admin should take a listen and compare this semi progressive stuff to some of the questionables who are already here. Journey should be here too , listen to their first album and see for yourself I started a thread a while ago wanted to add Boston it was just after Brad Delp passed away I wanted to celebrate his life here at prog archives sadly it fell on deaf ears and never happened ... so here we are again .. and we will keep returning to this point , the Boston thing won't just go away too many prog fans are interested in them or have been into them at some stage Boston are so prog related they are a stepping stone to prog .. its amazing to think bands like Magnum & Triumph (who I like BTW) are here but these bands are not .. I know its a prog site but these bands like Boston etc draw in a wider audience and make prog a part of the unaware to prog typical peoples lives too and that's got to be worth while thinking about. In a sense this site would be lifting its profile adding such a mighty dinosaur aor prog related band like Boston ... wait ... prog would be gaining big time. You know when you are sitting at home watching a quiz show on the TV and you know the answer to the the million dollar question and you shout at the television but nobody hears you ? ... that's how this feels |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 01:18
The suggestion is that they are prog-related, not prog.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 01:58
Dishonesty?
I have quoted word by word, i don't claim Toto and Phil Collins must be here and after an Administrator posts a different thing, you change your post and say...No, Phil Collins and Toto shouldn't be here...I stand on my beliefs nio matter how unpopular they are.
You invent words I never said.
You offfend, insult, you add bands that are not part of this thread and then blame them on me.
I have proved my honesty (not that I need to) working hours for free in this site that you enjoy without any effort, and you dare to call me dishonest?
I will avoid qualifying you because I won't go down to your level, but calling me dishonest, is an offence i won't accept..
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 02:07
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I only care about the topic no need to fight about this stuff , if Boston gets added great if they don't great either way I'm sure admin will make the best call |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 04:32
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Admin hat on.
This thread was temporarily removed by another member of the Admin team (who is has not participated in the discussion), as it has been tarnished by personal battles and superfluous comment.
The original proposal is for Boston to be added as Prog related. Let's see if we can continue to debate that without any personal comments, attacks on others, attempts to make others look stupid, belittle etc.
Surely we can discuss such matter without the distraction of personal battles.
Admin hat off.
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 04:44
Well Bob, I think the debates about possible additions will only become more and more serious and heated because in my opinion it is so subjective and since my arrival on Prog Archives in early 2004 I notice that there is no consequent approach towards new additions. A year ago I proposed The Tubes and The Stranglers, obviously more prog-related than bands that are already on this site and I also would like to go for Journey, their first three albums are very prog-related. But I have given up to discuss it, to open threads about band additions and even I have stopped to add bands because I want to avoid discussions that often ends as in this thread  I prefer to save my energy, time and good mood for positive and 'harmless' threads.
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Posted By: Lady In Black
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 05:37
Surely my English is not as good as a native born USA or British, but I believe I was clear, I said Boston doesbn't have a similar or nearly similar or Related Prog Track.
BTW: If you read the Prog related definition, my name is in the botton, because I wrote it and was approved by the Adms and mailto:M@X - M@X so I believe i know what Prog Related means.
The last sentence, is a request for people to worry for Prog bands not for doubious related bands.
Iván [/QUOTE]
Ivan, I'm Italian and I speak Italian, sure. Proper for this the sentence isn't clear, because without examples it seems to tell want that also the PR bands are Prog (at least so I can interpret it). In fact PR is a family of bands that have inflienced true Prog bands (also in the 70's). But I think that also the case of Rock bands influenced by Prog bands are cases of Prog Related (better: Related to Prog). And this is the case of Toto. So for some people 10CC (and Godley & Creme) or ELO are 100% Prog. Also for me, in certain moments 10CC or ELO are 100% Prog. Mandrakeroot says to find Prog also in Démis Roussos music. Sure, this is true. Démis speak in Prog terms for to describe its 70's production (see the Italian compilation "Démis Roussos" [sleeve notes write in Italian by Démis...]).
For me Boston, Toto, Journey are good case of Related to Prog, nothing all. But I think that different it's the case of Mountain because produced 100% Prog songs or the case of Cream because an album of "Disraeli Gears" contain sure Blues, White blues but is innovative for 1967 and to sort Cream like PP band is simply obvious.
Well, Judas Priest with "Rocka Rolla" and Saxon with "Saxon" plays Heavy Prog in their debuts. Also the RCA phase of discography of Scorpions contain superb Prog moments ("Fly To The Rainbows" is a 100% Floyd song!) and sure these are great examples. Like sure, in a certain sense, Motorhead plays a sort of (excuse me for the language) Fukin' R'n'R very near to the Prog (but in R'n'R field!) like in the 60's sure an example of Prog in music is the case of many bands (The Shadows, The Zombies... For examples). So Grateful Dead. This band isn't Prog. Or better is Prog. But not Prog in Prog terms. Prog in Rock, Blues and Psychedelic field, like Jimi Hendrix.
So, if PR is a clear family of bands with the PA policy isn't clear the role of Related to Prog bands, that isn't PR bands because influenced by full Prog bands but remains true Rock (or Heavy Rock or Heavy Metal or...) bands or the role of bands like Cream or Jimi Hendrix that plays in an era of great changes (from Beat, White Blues and Psychedelia and full Prog era) that for me are all PP bands.
This is my personal opinion.
P.s.: The Related to Prog category/ family isn't a category for PA. But the bands/ artists of this category/ family are sure bands/ artists for PA. ------------- It's dark... I've fear... I have strong pains... A serpent is being born... That badly I did, I? |
Posted By: Lady In Black
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 05:45
I agree with you, Ivan.
Because beginning to insult itself we breed only discussions that don't carry to nothing.
Better my previous post, because seeks to explain (and I believe there to succeed) the reason come done certain proposals of inclusion.
That in definitive... Is a great field for to exchange ideas on thing is the Prog for each forum members. ------------- It's dark... I've fear... I have strong pains... A serpent is being born... That badly I did, I? |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 06:13
Of course it is subjective, this is music - "serious & heated" are fine, indeed sometimes necessary, but personal insults are not. Let's keep it clean guys, yes? ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 06:43
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hmmmm... not surprised Morphy and Ivan lost their heads... that
is what happens when you take this stuff too serously. I can
speak from experience... it is a place I have been as well. I saw
it coming... and tried to stop it before they embarissed themselves. Erik raised a point... one that I asked Bob for his personal opinion on (since the admin hat was off ) earlier in the thread. So I expand my question... and just offer a bit of advice.. take it or leave it. to the admins.... it might really help if you did clarify what the scope of PR admissions are . Are we shooting for a sense of completelness in the work we do here... or are these addittions targeted to the site in particular. Either for bringing in bands that many prog fans know and may love... groups that might bring others to this site.... or like the rest of the genre teams... shooting to make this site the archives of prog music... and since we have it here... by extension.... prog related music. maybe it will... maybe it won't help amoung the general posting population.. ...but it might with the collabs... and if you don't have the collabs all on the same page... you never will get the general population to undestand. just my two euro-cents... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 06:55
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The answer is rather simple but opinions make it vague. I personally am happy to vote to include "non-Prog" bands which have the following criteria: 1. They have been heavily influenced by Prog Rock in a way that can be demonstrated via documentary evidence or obvious traits in their music. 2. They have influenced Prog Rock bands in a way that can be documented. 3. They satisfy either of the above criteria and create music that will either be of interest to Prog Rock fans who wouldnt normally listen to the band because of negative pre-conceptions of the band or of interest to non-Prog fans who might use them as stepping stone to real Prog by finding them on our site. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 06:59
Whilst I am certainly not convinced Boston should be here, I wonder how being mainstream can disqualify a band from being included here. Genesis were THE icons of AOR for over a decade, certainly far longer than they were the darlings of the Prog scene. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 07:15
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thanks for the thoughts Tony.... I think we all tire of these kinds of threads every
time a group like this comes along. It would have been nice to
have people express their opinions... their reasons for thinking the
way they do...and just leave it at that. Not try to spend pages
convincing people that they are right.. and you are wrong. the
music is too subjective to ever.... ever .. change anyone's mind.
In the process.. people get amped up..and it turns
personal. Always has.. always will.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 07:24
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I think it is fair to say that this thread proves Boston are of interest to Prog Rock fans; certainly people contributing to this thread appear to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the band and all its albums. So from that viewpoint they qualify. My own personal impression is that they make well-crafted, intelligent rock music that has a broad appeal but I cannot see the link to Prog or how their inclusion would be of benefit other than the fact that they obviously have many fans who might get drawn here by via a search engine. Is that a good enough reason to include? It might be great for advertising revenue but on all other levels I would be opposed to their inclusion. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 07:26
back on topic.... I think there is enough in that to at least have you all consider Boston... it isn't particularly important.. and I don't buy the idea that their are masses of Boston fans skulking the web looking for sites where they might find Boston and might find this site . But for a
sense of completeness... and a nice way of showing how the
popularity of prog on college campuses.. especially on the east coast
really did influence up and coming bands.. like Boston in the early to
mid 70's. The same rationale that was used for Zeppelin... just
how big prog was for a short time... it's influence hit the biggest of
groups.. and those groups just getting started.------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Casartelli
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 07:29
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I'm still waiting for my vote, because I still have the open question which part of an artist's discography should be prog (related) to be included in our beloved archives resp. in the PR category of our beloved archives.
I'm almost sure about a No, because I think one song on five albums (Foreplay / Long Time) is not enough, but I insist on the fact that Toto is a more interesting discussion.
Europe would also be fair for some stuff from their debut (Seven doors hotel, for example), whether you like it or not... but let's not go into that.
 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 07:31
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^ hahahha... agreed.. let's not... .one fire at a time...
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 07:40
You are very wrong on this Micky. If they are doing a specific search for album info then they will get here. I just did a search for Secret Treaties by BOC and Progarchives came up on the first page.. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=blue+oyster+cult+%2Bsecret+treaties&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=blue+oyster+cult+%2Bsecret+treaties&btnG=Search so back at ya pal.. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 07:42
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oh Tony...I know that PA's often comes up first in the list of google
hits... my point is .... is it worth it to add a band just for the
ability to bring new fans here... and let's face it.. I don't think
there are THAT many hahahha. That was the point I tried to make.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 07:43
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I am afraid the problem is just that... There are lots of bands or artists who have recorded a few prog songs, or even a whole album, though they are generally known for a rather different kind of musical output. There are lots of such cases in the history of Italian pop music, especially since in the Seventies prog was such a big phenomenon in my country. Personally, I think the only solution to the problem would be allowing for single-album entries instead of having to add whole discographies which, in far too many cases, have nothing whatsoever to do with prog. However, it seems the idea is not very popular, so I'm afraid we'll keep on seeing threads like this one for a long, long time. |