Southern California is Burning
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Topic: Southern California is Burning
Posted By: Garion81
Subject: Southern California is Burning
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 13:08
The smell of smoke is really revolting as it has been in our nostrils for two days. The brown haze is on all the horizons and people losing their homes by the hundreds now. 
The reports are not good as the high winds are fanning the flames through the end of the day today carrying embers miles and miles. Really no safe place with hills and brush right now until the winds go away. Fire fighters don't know where to draw lines because the direction could change quickly. Up near where my daughter and grand children live (they have been evacuated) the fire is so hot the pine trees are exploding as all the moisture is drawn out instantanly. I heard a report the Chargers may play their 'home" game in Arizona this week. San Diego county has been hit really hard. This time of year is always horrible but this year the fires all started nearer to structures than ever. Many are because of arson . Could have been worse as we actually had about an 1.5 inches of rain this month.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Replies:
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 13:10
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...
For what it's worth, you and all affected have my thoughts and prayers. |
Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 13:55
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So very sorry for all southern Californians. I can only imagine what a nightmare it would be to be told you have to leave your home because it is going to burn to the ground just a few hours from now. My heart goes out to all of those affected. ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 14:22
Brian - I thought you & Dan were in the north of the State; all OK, buddy?  ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 14:25
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We had our own problems with wildfires in the Georgia/Florida area this year. Not nearly as bad by all accounts. Wish you guys the best of luck. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Chris H
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 14:27
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That's what I like about Connecticut, it seems we're in a black hole of weather. Nothing extreme ever happens, just the way I like it.
Ya'll stay safe down there. ------------- Beauty will save the world. 
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Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 14:40
Dan lives a little north of Fresno in Merced which is in the central part of the state. I live in Corona about 40 miles from the coast and about 50 miles south east of LA in the southern part. Everything is OK where I am at at least none of these hills have burned. Down in San Diego and up around some of the mountains to the east and just south of the grapevine (hills that surround LA to the north) and by Malibu on the coast is where most of the fires have been. But they effect us all with smoke and ash. Really hoping for the winds to die down soon.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Jim Garten wrote:Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 15:02
Thanks for the thoughts! Here are some pictures that might help expalin:
 A link to the a map of all the fires:
http://stb.msn.com/i/ED/40C27C964D7ACC5E874553DCBA88B.jpg - http://stb.msn.com/i/ED/40C27C964D7ACC5E874553DCBA88B.jpg
Some pictures (after going to MSN click on the multimedia link) :
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5114929/?GT1=10450 - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5114929/?GT1=10450
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 15:15
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It's really unfortunate that these fires happen so frequently out west, I can only offer my thoughts and wishes to all affected. Let's hope that the brave men and women working to bring the the fires under control can do so succesfully. ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: Greg W
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 20:13
| Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have heard the environmental laws were so strict, that they wouldn't even allow people to come in there and cut out the dead rotting trees, citing that we would upset the animals there. In such a hot and dry climate, that seems like one is inviting disaster. |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 20:22
Isn't that ironic? That move certainly killed more wildlife than it saved. Thanks, enviro-terrorists! -------------   |
Posted By: Greg W
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 20:39
Well keep in mind, arson is expected. The high winds certainly have more to do with it more than dry rotting wood as well, but still, I'm sure dead wood contributes to the problem at hand.
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 20:51
My sincere sympathy, Brian, to you, yours, and all those affected by this terrifying disaster.
We had a forest fire near here this spring, right on the border of a nearby, favourite park with tall pines and lovely lakes for swimming. (It was soon contained, & the park was not hurt, luckily). Riding through the burnt area recently, I could already see signs of re-greening, as mother nature revives.
A couple of summers ago was also bad, with choppers constantly going to and fro overhead like a war zone. One day the neighbourhood filled with smoke. I know how scary and surreal the situation can feel -- and things are much worse in magnitude down there!
I'm not trying to be funny now, but at least there's some comfort in knowing that the same areas won't burn again next year.... Stay safe, and here's hoping the situation improves soon!
 ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 20:53
| Keep safe man. And I hope your daughter will manage. Props to all of the firefighters. It's really saddening to see it this bad. Southern Cal is home for me. Maybe homes will be somewhat affordable now when this is over. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 20:53
I will have to correct you because you're wrong. They are having a drought. Whoever or however the fires started, they are being spread and fed by a phenomena sort of like a dry hurricane, which spreads embers and fire. If they'd just get rid of all the trees and houses they'd be just fine. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 21:14
Where did you hear some nonsense like that ? It sounds fabricated to me. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 21:19
Not to deny that drought is a major factor in this case, Slart (when we get less snow here in the winter, fire season starts earlier, and is worse), but according to what I've read, dry, dead wood (deadfall) left to accumulate on the forest floor certainly can make these fires more likely, and worse.
Forest fires existed long before we came along (as long as there have been trees, and lightning). But modern man started to "manage" forests, and the old traditions of harvesting fallen wood are suddenly not allowed. It piles up. Native Americans frequently burnt areas to clear land for farming and even easier hunting, but that wise & useful tradition is gone too. (Again, deadfall piles up.) Finally, a MAJOR contributing factor is the way we seek to quickly extinguish ALL fires (remember, they are a natural phenomenon), so instead of periodic, smaller, localized fires (which, BTW, would not only clear out dead wood, but also re-vitalize some areas, creating richer soil via the ash, and a natural habitat for light-loving berry bushes and creatures like deer, which feed on the new growth), we now get less frequent, but HUGE fires.
The authorities pretty much HAVE to put out all fires because, well, we humans insist on moving into the forest (much like we love our riverside properties -- which are all very nice & scenic until the river floods, as it always has).
No easy solution, I'm afraid. There's just too damn many of us living in nature's back yard. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 21:22
That would be the right wing noise machine. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 21:30
Very thoughtful post. Here in the Georgia/Florida area we've been having drought and wildfire problems this season. In other seasons, hurricanes. But to my memory the wildfires around here are a recent problem. I've lived here since '72 and this is the first year smoke from distant wildfires ever saturated the area. They haven't affected houses to the extent that Califonia has been hit. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 21:32
 EM, if you (or anyone else with sufficient attention span and reading ability ) is interested in actually learning more about forest fires, forest management and deadfall, etc, I just found a very informative article from the Canadian Forest Service. (I simply Googled "forest management fires deadfall." ): http://www.nofc.forestry.ca/fire/research/management/wui/factsheet1_e.htm - http://www.nofc.forestry.ca/fire/research/management/wui/factsheet1_e.htm
It's not too long a read, BTW, but I'd better not just copy a document which, as our good Bob/Easy Livin would point out, is most likely copyrighted. This brief article/fact sheet has lots of links to related topics, too. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 21:44
Thanks, Slart.
Please do check out the link I just posted. Though it's Canadian, it still applies to your US situation as well (it touches upon pretty much all of the things we've mentioned here), and even mentions aging forests, and a worsening (recent) problem.
Ain't Google & the Web wonderful? It's almost like living in every major library on earth -- minus that cursed, confusing Dewey Decimal system!  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 21:44
Always interested in good information. Used love to flip through encyclopedias as a kid. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 21:50
| Hi Peter, I like your take on things, also my sympathies go to those effected. I just don't think people should take advantage of this and use it to push a pre-determined political agenda. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 22:00
I quite agree -- the (inevitable) finger pointing can and should wait. Now is the time for human empathy and united action!
(Ain't politics a lovely game? No disaster is so horrid but some oily, cynical, sleazy, self-serving, slimeball schmuck politico won't seek to take advantage of it to garner votes!)  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 22:02
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This is nature reclaiming itself. We cannot control it forever. If we try to mess with it, it will mess with us on a far greater scale. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 22:06
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In CA when the Santa Ana winds blow at 70mph in dry weather, and the humidity is 4%, you're going to have wildfires. Regardless of what environmentalists do. Clearing dead brush is helpful but this whole angle about environmentalists being at fault is a huge ironic joke IMO. Our thoughts are with any and all of our PA kin in the area. Please stay well! ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 00:51
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Um guys lived here all my life. The fact is we have had below normal rainfall for two year straight with last year only netting 3.5 inches. This area is surrounded by mountains as high as 8000 ft along with the accompanying foothills right up to the Ocean. We are not flat. These hills grow scrub brush that dies out every summer even in wet years. When the winds come it lowers humidity to less than 10%. A spark is all you need to set these off.
Greg W prior to 2003 we had a drought related issue in our local mountains that caused the Ponderosa pines to be devastated by an insect called the Bark Beetle that literally killed the trees from the core out. Once infested there was no way to save the trees. We had tens of thousands of these dead giants all over the place. Some of the blame goes to over forestation the other to drought that weakened these trees in the first place. I am not here to make a political debate. Even before the devastating fires of 2003 the forestry service was contracting many people to remove them. After that devastating fire a gold rush economy boomed in getting rid of the rest.
No the real reason for this devastation this year is arson as it is so many times in the past. Natural fires caused by lightning do happen but more often than not these things are caused by insane people who care nothing for the environment and other people.
You could make a case for overpopulation but really someone would be affected somewhere when these things happen. The only difference would be the fires would burn more acres until they reached homes as they did when I was a kid.
Btw Peter thanks for the thoughts. My daughter is safe and we are hoping since the winds are dying and humidity is growing her home will be OK. -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 01:52
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As I read this, in Decaur Georgia, we are being treated to a nice overdue rain and I wish you guys the same soon.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Bastille Dude
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 02:50
Most of these fires were started by sick individuals who get a kick out of watching the destruction they've incurred, Not by mother nature. October is always bad in California, When the warm Santa Ana winds start to blow and the humidity is low, Arson fires are to be expected. Thankfully the low pressure will be coming back in and we might have some rain by the weekend which could quell these fires. I hope they catch the degenerates who started the fires. 
------------- DEATH TO FALSE PROG! |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 09:20
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For everyone who lives in the area and are being affected by this my prayers are with you and hope you all are allright. -------------  |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 12:34
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this fire is all over the news in the UK, what a tragedy, our thoughts are with the suffering, and hope it stops soon.
-------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 16:57
| Jeez...just saw some pictures....Never seen anything like that before. |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 18:29
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I have JJ the last big one was just 4 years ago. It truley looks like a warzone. I remember after the last one and driving by the mountains that were burnt black
I was just outside a few minutes ago and it must have been 90-92 with no humidty at all. At least the wind died down. Saw smoke coming from a new horizon just due west of where I work.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 18:54
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First off , my prayers for all in the area, hoping that this passes quickly. When I fist saw the thread topic, I was of a mind to post a rant about how celebrity residents of California have it good compared to Darfur ( a favourite cause of mine as of late). Then I read the posts, and good common sense overwhelmed me. Suffering is not measured by comparing. Compassion is not doled out only in the most extreme cases, but whenever we see people just like us, who face a danger to their lives. Here in New Brunswick (Canada) we do have major forest fires, but because of a less dense population, the effects are rarely of the order that California has faced regularly. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 19:09
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Nice post. And to add to your last remark your forest fires were probably not started by arson!
BTW very few celebrities live in So Cal. Mostly a lot of regular people make up the population.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 21:08
Well ... years ago when I was much younger, there were always stories how some people would start a fire so they could get work fighting the fire, thus getting enough weeks to qualify for unemployment insurance, UI. That didn't last too long after one guy got his ass kicked by a local lumberjack who's income was cut off because the woods in our area were closed off because of a fear that a number of minor fires might combine into one big one due to a dry summer. I don't generally agree with small town vigilanteeism, but you know sometimes it works, eh. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 22:37
Damn. I have to admit I kind of shook this off because, you know, we hear about fires alot....but I was really shocked when I saw this. Especially the NASA pick of the smoke from space.
Hope you're alright, and everyone down there.
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Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: October 25 2007 at 13:11
I and my family are and thanks for your concern.
The thing is 500,000 people had to be evacuated form their homes. Some at a moments notice taking nothing with them but the clothes on their back, their families and maybe if lucky they had time to grab pets and pictures. Other areas get more time. In any case all of the evacuations were orderly and people didn't panic. For most of these people they will go back to their homes and resume their lives for the many who lost homes they will have their lives turned upside down in a litany of insurance claims, government red tape and the feeling of loss when they they have lost everything.
These fires can be every bit as tragic as a hurricane, flood or any other natural disaster. They are native to the area but the damn arsonists who set a lot of these things during these conditions are the real problem. You add in the number of people who live here and it is terrifying.
Today the weather is better and many of the fires are being contained. There are still two or three of the biggest ones that haven't so we hope and pray the weather continues to cool and we get more moisture. One more wind blast like Sunday-Tuesday thousands of homes would be destroyed.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: October 25 2007 at 13:32
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The arson really is sick. If I started a fire that ended up becoming one of these, I'd probably throw myself into it... disgusting. Glad things are starting to look a little better.
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: October 25 2007 at 15:26
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I just got back from my favorite coffeeshop down in the city and there was a guy from San Diego huddled over his laptop. He, the owner and myself got to talking and he had photos taken at night. Man, what a bizarre scene that is. He said that it's jumped Hwy 5 (the main highway that runs north/south). My thoughts and prayers are with the people of southern California as well. E ------------- 
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Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: October 25 2007 at 16:34
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My GF sent this quote form an article but not the link but I figured you could find something like this in any of local papers. I thought though the subject of the quote is too important to not share. These guys give so much:
A two-pronged fire there in the San Bernardino Mountains has destroyed more than 300 homes so far. Stanton told of his crew having to abandon one small neighborhood in Running Springs when it became obvious that flames were going to overwhelm them. Hours later, tired and in an almost dreamlike state, he described the scene: "It was dark, the sky was glowing, the winds were blowing fiercely, and the longer we stayed the smokier we got," he said. "The embers were getting bigger and thicker. I looked up, the entire ridge was glowing. "You could tell the fire was coming closer and closer," he continued. "Then it hit the tops of the trees. They were popping, exploding, all in flames. The call went out to evacuate the entire command post." He paused for a moment. "I really haven't slept. Am I making any sense or just rambling?" -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: October 26 2007 at 03:14
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Thanks Brian - the fire service are often seen as just that, a service; when you see first hand testimony such as this, only then do you get some kind of real perspective on the horrors these guys face...
[edit] Wrong place for such a discussion - remainder of comment removed. -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |