Black Sabbath inclusion
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42512
Printed Date: December 01 2024 at 23:42
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Black Sabbath inclusion
Posted By: Sean Trane
Subject: Black Sabbath inclusion
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 04:48
|
As wished by Max, himself!!
Those not happy with it, please use this thread to spill your bile, it won't make a difference
 http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3253 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3253
Please read before overeacting!!! ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Replies:
Posted By: Kotro
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 04:50
|
Having in mind all that has been done before, can't really say I disagree... ------------- Bigger on the inside. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 04:51
|
Hughes, the first album is listed twice |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 05:00
Of course it is.. we've added them at the same time! Edit: please Admins, can you delete the double entries, please? |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 05:02
Now that that is settled, let's move on to Judas Priest ... little by little we'll also get to Metallica. I know that they've been officially refused - but never say never!
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
|
Posted By: Dragon Phoenix
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 05:09
|
Seriously, as much as I like listening to BS, this is the last straw.
This site is making a complete mockery of itself. I am out of here.
------------- Blog this: http://artrock2006.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 05:12
I can sympathise with you, but we've tried to make it clear we don't own it. If you think other sites are more 'purist', you're welcome to try them. BTW, now someone else can add some albums.. .I've added a few now, and I have other things to do. |
Dragon Phoenix wrote:Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 05:12
|
a mockery as ProgRelated?... I doubt it, besides it was the owner's decision |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 05:14
That's a superb bio Hugues  , but I fear people won't beable to read it through the red-mist that forms over their eyes.
Lost Angeles  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 05:23
Like it happened when I added Iron Maiden ...BTW, Dean, isn't that a song by Colosseum? And one of my favourites too...  |
Posted By: glass house
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 05:28
So just because of one man's decision you are out of here?
Great job on the bio Sean.
I'm kinda blank on the fact BS are here. It is just a movement of lounges.
 |
Posted By: Kotro
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 05:30
|
Two entries for each album, how lovely... ------------- Bigger on the inside. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 05:32
a clever ruse to halve their ratings. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 05:33
 (not directed at you, Kotro...)
|
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 05:41
It's hard to see how Metallica can be refused now - and Priest are an obvious omission, if you listen to their early material.
I'm glad to see Sabbath here - it makes more sense to me than, say, Led Zeppelin...
...now that they're here, has anyone heard "Volcanic Rock" by the Australian band Buffalo?  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 05:49
|
my position on Metallica has actually softened but one thing Sabbath has on their side is that they were active during the prog era which gives them some credibility as a parallel part of the Prog family... Metallica don't have that on their side. |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:00
I deleted the double entries for Black Sabbath,Paranoid and Masters of Reality.I had to delete the ones you added Raf because they had no reviews. -------------  |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:02
| Don't worry, Jody.. Yesterday Hugues asked me to add the albums, and I agreed, but had no idea he wanted to do the first three himself! |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:04
|
Yerkwantai doesn't like them. Tell me Mikenregalia and Progtologest did my sabbath review cause offense to you about metal? I was just voicing my opinion but if it does seem hostile I apologise and you may feel free to edit it to a more appropriate way. The audience I was going for with it was the non-metal folks such as myself so they can see why Sabbath belongs here and find out their supurb music. |
Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:04
|
to all the admins: i salute the one inclusion i disagree the most with and the one that i'm most excited about... s/t debut already reviewed... STAY HEAVY.... God, i feel like i'm sixteen again... ------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:06
But of course...he already had the reviews written for them!!!! ------------- |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:07
| yerkwantai has given two one stars unwritten reviews, a bit suspicious if you ask me. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:10
| ^ on a prog site.. how so? |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:10
|
Get ready for A LOT of that.We will keep on eye on the ratings without reviews. ------------- |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:10
I am so happy you saw that!!!
Yes, Raf!! This is in reference to the Colosseum track. LA was the drug capital of the world (as far as consumption is concerned) during the 70's and it is little wonder why English groups settled there (the famous "Ryatt hotel"). When I got to LA with a bunch of friends, all we could think off was to get out of there. The only song we played that night was the Colosseum (both version >> the studio that stands on the Grass Is Greener and the live version) and we got out the next morning.....
DP: come on, this is not so bad either. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:10
Looking at his ratings for other bands & albums I think he's being consistant in his views ------------- What? |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:12
I've six or seven ready (I relistened to the albums I have while writing the bio, so I reviewed them as well), but for the first three, I wanted first shot at it.
Sorry Raf, I Should've warned you  ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:15
and a few weeks ago who would have predicted that Sabbath would be your 2113rd review ------------- What? |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:17
What? that he hates music in general? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:20
No, not really - http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=15577 - http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=15577 ------------- What? |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:22
Oh right, when I checked his page earlier, the computer must have stalled because it showed only about 20 reviews and most of them were 1 stars.  |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:24
|
Crowley is not too keen on them either
|
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:30
|
There is going to be a lot of flack and negative reviews concerning BS.
I hate to say it but get used to it,you guys wanted them here and they are here,not everybody is going to like it. ------------- |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:33
did you check earlier in the post what I asked you and mike about the review?, I just don't want to inflame any metal ffans by any offhand remark in my review |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:37
It didn't bother me at all Michael. ------------- |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:39
Hughues, why did you leave that annoyingly long discography list in the bio? It's duplication of information at best  And I'm not going to fight the battle on whether or not they should be included. They're here - to stay and to be enjoyed (although maybe not by all).  ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:40
Jody,
You of all people (as an Admin) should know this was mailto:M@Xs - M@X's decision. Bob approached over a month ago for this and I don't think I have said one bad word of Sabbath in my text. Therefore I don't see why metalheads and PM fans should really take it badly.
I know BS gets a lot of bs for the supposedly satan image, but I don't see the same for hatred for Black Widow. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:40
great , just trying not to offend, too often I've read reviews by critics and in the process run down half a dozen of my favourite bands in ther process, and it get a bit as a result, so I don't want to do the same thing. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:42
Indeed, but what Metallica have on their side is that Dream Theater used their riffs, song and bridge structures, overall methods of composition, and covered their albums, and... ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:43
Because you're supposed to fill it in >> this is in the form you have to fill in., for one
I stopped at 1998, so it should be longer, for two
 I didn't pit the posthumous release, compilations and other, just historical studios and live albums. >> so I kept it short, for three ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:46
yeah, not gonna go down that road  |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:47
...and Black Sabbath have mellotron!  ------------- |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 06:56
Indeed - Metallica did it all first, and they're still better in many ways than Dream Theater; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5PkSiZCa2M - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5PkSiZCa2M
Improv: The heart of Progressive Rock.
/road ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 07:07
|
someone wake me up when he's stopped playing with himself... c'mon that nonesense doesnt suggest prog.That kind of interlude happens at thousands of heavy metal/heavy rock shows. It's politely called showboating... |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 07:19
|
I have been into progressive rock since the beginning. Sabbath was a heavy band that was in good favour with the progressive rock crowd, but they were never considered a progressive band.
I can think of a lot of people I would have placed before them: John Cale: He was a conservatory trained composer who made records combining contemporary concert hall music with rock. He was making loud electronic drone music with the Dream Syndicate as early as 64. When he was in the VU they were a far different band from what they became. His use of repeating organ and viola parts made the VU a background rhythm for his experiments mixing minimalism with rock. Brian Auger: Excellent British keyboardist, he was a huge influence on Lord and Emmerson as well as many others. He combined psychedelic rock and jazz early on to make groundbreaking music. Hendrix: Poor Jimi has been reduced to being a gratuituos guitar hero for the masses. The truth is, his guitar playing has been surpassed by Pete Cosey, John McLaughlin, Blackmore, Beck, Van Halen, Vai etc. It may sound pretentious, but Jimi's main contribution was that he was a shaman who revolutionized rock music. Also,he was there side by side with Soft Machine and Floyd bringing the new sound of rock to the masses. His effect on others was huge. Just talk to Fripp, Emmerson, Blackmore and almost any founder of progressive rock and ask what they think of his contribution. Also, in his later years he was able to break free from those who saught to control his career and and was able to write deep songs about loneliness and alienation full of suprising structures and chord changes ie progressive rock. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 07:24
I thought that you place form above all other things ... and that's a good thing, since Metallica hardly ever improvise (except for the late Cliff Burton) ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 07:26
|
I apologise for the totally useless post, but this is a thread about the inclusion of Black Sabbath in PA - not about Metallica, Jimi Hendrix or I don't know how many other bands and artists. Don't you all think it would be better to start another thread titled, "Bands/artists I believe to be influential for prog, or otherwise influenced by it"? In any case, no one is going to agree on anything. It's been CLEARLY said the admission was requested by the site owner, but still I'm sure in the next few hours there'll be people at each other's throats. What really bugs me big time is PA is considered a 'traitor' to the supposed purity of prog, when there are sites bearing the same word 'prog' in their names, and having everything from The Human League to Toto to Jane's Addiction in their database  .
|
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 07:29
|
^ I think it's quite normal that with the inclusion of BS the discussion also includes other possible metal inclusions. There are quite a few people who think that Metallica deserve to be included much more than Black Sabbath - or Iron Maiden for that matter. I for one accept the decisions made by the owners and the admin team, but it doesn't mean that we can't still discuss these bands in the light of such additions.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 07:34
Oh you don't have to take me too seriously, I just thought I saw a format for some petty griping and complaining. Mostly I just like to talk music trivia and throw some opinions out there. Just passing the time really, damn insomnia. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 07:38
| EM, I wasn't referring to you, but the situation in general. I'm sorry you have insomnia-related problems - I usually sleep very well, but there have been times I haven't been able to, and it was tough. Actually, I thought your suggestions were very nice and well thought out, therefore deserving of different, better exposure in the forum. |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 07:51
I see.... ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 08:08
Thought you would.....
John Cale and VU have been up for discussions, and most likely some day, they'll get included.
Why Brian Auger (both with Trinity >> Proto Prog and Oblivion Express >> JR/F or prog-related) isn't in PA, is a bit beyond me. I think they'll get added soon!
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 08:35
I think you misunderstood my post Hugues.
I said what I said because Michael seemed upset that people were giving Sab albums low ratings without reviews. ------------- |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 08:39
|
And next time...before you are in such a rush to get reviews out and announce the inclusion why don't you finish the discography first?
I have been deleting double entries most of this morning. ------------- |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 09:12
 !  That bilious enough for you, Hugues?
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 09:22
|
The category "Prog-related" probably always has and always will cause some of the most controversial additions to the Archives. With the other genres, the controversy is usually not whether the band is prog or not, but whether the band is prog in this genre or that genre (or any one of 6 genres depending on the band).
Prog-related is a compromise category where a band can be placed when there is enough interest in the prog community to include them but they aren't progressive enough to be included as a full-fledged progressive rock band. As has been stated in other threads "Prog-related" does not equal "Prog".
In regards to Black Sabbath, I personally have always considered them to be a heavy metal band (one of if not the founding heavy metal band(s)). Do I think that they should be referenced on a progressive rock website as "Prog-related"? Yes. Why? Because progressive metal is a category on the Prog Archives website and Black Sabbath as a founding band of heavy metal have much in common with many of the bands in the Prog Metal genre. Unfortunately, why is this a problem? Because where do you draw the line with including bands who have either influenced prog bands or who have created some prog songs but for the most part are non-prog. Should it just be the older bands that founded heavy metal and had some progressive elements or should late arrivers to the heavy metal scene also be included because they are cited as a source of influence to a truly progressive band? The great thing about the Prog Archives site is that bands are not added willy-nilly. People with many years of experience in listening to music debate the merits of various bands and only include bands after much discussion and debate. As has been stated in this case, the owner of the site has approved the inclusion of Black Sabbath so that is that. Obviously it is going to cause controversy because "if Black Sabbath were truly prog-related why did he wait until now to add them". I for one think that it is good that a lot of thought was put into this decision before it was finally made.
I believe that most PA users who enjoy the Prog Metal and Heavy Prog categories are probably happy to have Black Sabbath on PA so that they can review their albums and express their opinions on this great band. Those that don't like these categories of prog are probably not too happy to have Black Sabbath included. This is unfortunately a problem with the huge range of music that is covered under the umbrella of prog.
In conclusion, all that I can say is that I hope that everyone respects the sites guidelines for preparing reviews. If you have actually listened to Black Sabbath albums and you truly do not like them then feel free to give them a bad review. If you have never listened to their albums but you just don't like the idea of them being on PA, then don't review them because it is not fair to people who use PA as a reference source. On the other side of the debate the same should hold true for positive reviewers, if you haven't heard the albums then don't give them a positive review just because you want to counteract nonsense negative reviews. Also, remember as great as some of their albums might be, the 5-star category as a PROG-ROCK Masterpiece should probably never apply to a Black Sabbath album unless you truly believe that the album is a work of Progressive Rock. ------------- 
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 09:28
Yup, sorry, I did misread it!!
Actually the understanding I had with Raf is that I opened the page up and she would fill in the albums, since I lacked time .
So I PM'd her I had opened the page, but thinking she's in the US, she might be still asleep so I added the first three albums myself then when I finished, I returned to the forum only to find Raf had also started adding the albums.
But I only added the fiorstthree, so there would only be three entries to take away unless someone else is working without checking.
Sorry for the inconvenience
 ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 09:35
|
Through the forum the progholes whine Could it be the end of prog and time Back on PA the flame of life burns low Everywhere is misery and ... Burning metal through the atmosphere
mailto:M@x - M@x remains in worry, hate and fear With the forum battles raging on....  Ach, sure 'tis only music, me hearties!
or near enough.... ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 09:57
|
So it's done then ?
I for one won't complain, understanding the prog-RELATED meaning, but boy, I'm eager to see the purists screaming HERESY !!!
I'll be one to post a few reviews for sure ! ------------- "One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio |
Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 10:18
|
Black Sabbath's inclusion doesn't affect me one way or the other, but what worries me is that we're steadily losing credibility with every controversial prog-related addition, imo. Max seems to think these additions will attract new audiences - and hey, maybe he's right. We might notice a few Sabbath/Zeppelin fans cropping up in the near future, but at the same time the actual prog fans might abandon us - as has already happened with Dragon Phoenix's announcement. This is a worrying development, imo.
------------- 
|
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 10:46
|
I just want to say this. I respectfully disagree with the inclusion of bands like Sabbath, Who, and several others because I am simply in favor of a more purist site. That said, if these bands are here, I will have my fun reviewing some of their work as I'm a big fan of some of them. But I have one suggestion: Can we change the star definitions to say "rock" instead of "prog" or "progressive." There are now many albums here that I would consider "essential to a rock collection" but are most certainly not "essential to a prog collection" or a "masterpiece of progressive music." Just a suggestion. If the site wants to move to a wider inclusion of mainstream bands, they should adjust that terminology accordingly, no? Have fun OZ fans! |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 10:50
|
Prog Related probably needs its own set of star definitions replacing the "prog" with the "rock". -------------
|
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 11:04
|
My words about the inclusion:
 Prog Archives and ...changes
! |
Posted By: PROGMAN
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 11:14
------------- CYMRU AM BYTH 
|
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 11:17
|
Not sure if this was the point of the above post, but I do really like "Changes" from Black Sabbath. That is a great song. -------------
|
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 11:26
PA front page: 3,087 bands (as of today)... it means that almost 100 bands were added in the last 45 days! I'm quite sure that 98% of them are real PROG acts... but who cares. 
Ah! and then we have this "related" addition which took 5 threads, 2 polls, many PMs (certainly), people leaving the site. "What did we do that was wrong?" ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 11:37
I'll only say two words to you, Scott: THANK YOU .If more people here (and in the world in general) adopted your attitude, the site (and the world) would be a much better place. However, as James (Finnforest) said, I think it is also time to change the parameters for PP and PR reviews, and take that word 'prog' away. In fact, I have never given less than 5 stars to those PP and PR albums (like "Made in Japan", "Led Zeppelin 4" or "Rising") that I consider to be masterpieces of MUSIC, just because they're not prog. Too many people give them low ratings for that reason, and I think it's not fair. The categories are here to stay, but that doesn't mean the rating of the albums has to suffer just to show the world they are not fully prog. Just my two cents, of course... |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 11:42
|
Thank you for that info Atkingani. I would have added something to that effect in my longwinded post but was not aware of the actual statistics. I suspected something to that effect though. I was kind of figuring for every 100 bands added there might be 2 or 3 that are somewhat controversial. But I guess that these are the ones that will be most talked about because there is controversy. Such is a "prog's" life. Personally I think that those of you that are running this site are doing an excellent job, and that this decision that wasn't something that was taken lightly. -------------
|
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 11:47
I agree with you entirely, Raff.... ... in fact, I have just graded ALL the Black Sabbath albums which have been added thus far (with the exception of Seventh Star & Eternal Idol, which I've never heard)... and if you're interested, gave 5 stars to Sabotage, my favourite Sabbath album....------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 12:36
|
I first found Prog Archives when I was looking for information about Krautrock. Although I was familiar with most of the "big" prog groups and some of the less well known, I had no idea just how much prog was out there. PA has helped me discover some fantastic music.
If someone stumbles upon PA while looking for information about Black Sabbath, I reckon it can go two ways. Either they'll say "Sabbath aren't prog" and look elsewhere or, like me, they'll find out about fantastic music they never knew existed. ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 14:51
| Spot on ABN, the latter is what we hope will happen! |
Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 15:14
|
With the points made about adding Sabbath make sence,though i feel 50/50 about their actuall genre.But i deffintley dont take it as serious to argue about it and seeing their related to prog why not put them in prog-related. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow"> 
|
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:09
can't fault his taste in music...very consise reviews http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=134190 - http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=134190 or fault those who rate, as I do, based on the premise this is a prog site. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:15
and why don't we change the name of the site as well
It is a prog site... personally I think a few 1 star reviews based on the 'prog
quotient' of the music, isn't going to have people jumping off bridges.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:20
|
as a further thought on that... if the albums are to be judged the same
way... why then did the site remove non prog albums from the most
popular album list. Those who call for the 'same' means of
ranking and reviewing should also accept to have non prog album near
the top of the album list.. on a prog site. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:22
|
Black Sabbath is about Prog as Cannibal Corpse.
|
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:25
|
I don't care either way. I never saw them as prog related at all, but apparently others do. But what irks me is it seems only the big name, classic rock, 70s bands are being now viewed as prog-related. For example, I think the Flaming Lips are 300% more prog than Black Sabbath ever were. However, I wouldn't want them on this site because they clearly don't belong in the grand scheme of things. Add prog-related bands if you wish, I just don't know what the point of it all is. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:26
|
considering what I think of my reviews..and how they suck. I
hesistate to do this . but will anyway.. and offer an example of
the way you can fairly treat reviewing an album by a non prog group.
How much more better is served the person who is a prog fan, who
made not have heard the album ()
then just another 5 star review because it is a classic album. Rate the
album on it's prog quotient.. with due regard to it's classic status. http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=110332 - http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=110332 ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:44
First off, as I said in my original long-winded and dry quote for which your eyes probably glossed over and you didn't bother or finish to read (or only read want you wanted to read) I did say that those who review the Sabbath reviews should not give them 5 stars because they are not prog masterpieces, unless the reviewer really thinks that they are prog masterpieces. But I also think that there will be too many people who are peeved because of this addition to the site, even though as only prog-related, who will give 1 star ratings just because they are peeved and not because the albums are poor. If you have listened to the Sabbath albums and think that they are poor then please feel free to give it a 1 star; preferrably with a well-written and thought out explanation not a one sentence "Sabbath sucks and shouldn't be on a prog website".
My follow-up sentence that you quoted was in agreement with responses made by Finnforest and your beloved. I don't think that that is a bad idea since prog-related has been separated from prog and is not being included on the page 1 list with prog bands. As Raff said, she has given some prog-related bands a 5-star rating because they are masterpieces of MUSIC, but based on the guidelines of this site, a 5-star rating means that it is a prog-rock masterpiece. Does that mean that the wording should be changed? I think it would make sense, but I also don't think it is a big deal because I think that we are smart enough to make the distinction that because it is prog-related, a 5 star just means it is a masterpiece in the reviewers beliefs not a prog rock masterpiece. -------------
|
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:52
|
Black Sabbath are here, I dont care too much, this sint that bad. ------------- 
|
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:55
I answered your post without quoting the big one...sorry about that.... who really gives a flip if they do get 1 star reviews. I hope you aren't planning on jumping off a bridge for a few ignorant 1 star reviews. We have all kinds of reviews.. the good.. and the bad. The reviews you speak of are of course the bad ones... until we decide to edit people's opinions .. we have to live with it. Do you really think anyone pays attention to 1 star reviews that took 5 seconds to write.. no... only those who place some notion in those damn rankings as if it were a game. If some clown wants to give it one star because it isn't prog.. so what. This is a prog site.. and the life of the site is having differing opinions... but what should not be a matter of opinion is this is a prog site. And we have PROG reviewers here... not album reviewers. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:57
|
Wow when I start a thread about a 10000% prog bands, it doesn't get to the second pâge unless I bump it up six times. Here inless than 3/4 of one day, we're at 4 pages. You guys sure you like prog????? ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:59
|
that was a hell of a nice bio Hugues... good one
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 17:59
Fair enough.  I haven't jumped off any bridges since I was a teenager vacationing in Ludington and a bunch of us were jumping into the lake. That lack of fear/disregard for life left me along time ago, so no, 1 star reviews will not make me jump off any bridges. -------------
|
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 18:00
No reason to post if it is not controversial.
Where's the fun in everybody posting that they agree with the addition?[Edit] Besides I haven't downloaded the new Radiohead yet, so I can't participate in those discussions. -------------
|
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 18:05
good deal
As I tried to illustrate with my LZ IV review... is possible to review
an album by a non prog group fairly.. with regards to the
OVERriding concern of this site... prog rock... and yet take note that
the album IS a classic of rock music. I just don't see the need
to monkey with the rankings and how we rate them. Again.. the
real downside is that if we judge the albums in the same way.. the prog
and non-prog.. you have to then reflect that in the rankings.. and you
don't want to have to endure ENDLESS bitching about why Paranoid is
ranked above Brain Salad Surgery in an album list... on a prog
site. I agree with your sentiments regarding reviews.. but the
big picture ..and the focus on prog can't be lost. IMO of course.cheers. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 19:23
That's the attitude!
Either non-yet-prog-fans will stumble with Sabbath on their searches and find some incredible music (then we gain more people to the prog cause) or "elitists" will leave PA because of this inclusion... Well, it's my opinion, that ANYWAY WE WIN HERE.  ------------- 
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 19:27
I'm one of those.... Whilst Black Sabbath is only marginally influential to prog-metal (but it IS, hence it's inclusion in prog-RELATED...), much more so is Metallica which actually has a FULL PROG-METAL ALBUM called "And Justice for All" and "Master of Puppets"..... But I won't say anything about this ever again....The owners seem to think BS is more prog than M, and it's their site, and I'm able to say all kinds of bullsh*t thanks to them, so I'll just shut up. -------------
|
Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 20:44
|
I'm happy Black Sabbath, the grandfathers of metal, and the infleuence of heavy music as a whole, are here! Yeah, Metallica should also be here, but they were already rejected... ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Barla/?chartstyle=LastfmMyspace">  
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:04
|
that's a great Zep 4 write-up, micky |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:11
|
M@x's argument is basically "Sabbath influenced every metal group, so they influenced prog metal." Well, Chuck Berry influenced every rock group, and thus he influenced prog rock, but that doesn't mean HE should be here. Black Sabbath's influence was not related to progressiveness at all. This is just another silly move towards including every classic rock act ever into the Prog Archives.
-------------   |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:14
| I'm surprised how people are keeping cool heads over Sabbath's inclusion |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:15
listen to the albums from Sabbath bloody Sabbath to Never Say Die you'll be surprised how proggy they actually became |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:18
not exactly, your logic doesn't quite follow-- Chuck Berry influenced every rock 'n roll band, not every prog band (if any), but Sabbath did and does have an influence on progressive metal |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:20
|
Rock 'n' roll begat rock, rock begat prog rock. Replace Chuck Berry with Cream, if you'd prefer a more immediate influence. ------------- |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:23
no not at all... prog rock musicians were moving away from the music of blues-based rock... Cream, Doors, Hendrix, Beatles, whomever.. Sabbath took up that spirit of expansion in the hard rock/metal arena |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:24
|
Towards...of all things...blues based rock! It's basically Cream, but simpler and with more distortion.
------------- |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:27
|
the fact that Sabbath came from rock, which is blues-based, doesn't negate the fact that they progressed their form in a direction - however limited - away from it within the context of heavy metal... this is in essence what Progmetal artists do |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:35
| I don't care who they decide put on here, but there are a lot of blues derived riffs in Sabbath's music. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 12 2007 at 21:36
|
Well guys, you know I'm not in favor of the inclusion of BS, but the chief has spoken and we must accept, there's no use for more debate.
The T wrote:
BTW: T please, as we know how to lose and accept some facts we don't agree with, you must learn to win, all those cheers, rubbing in our faces and calling us elitists that must leave Prog Archives, cause more problems, please avoid them.
Knowing how to win is harder than knowing how to loose.
Iván ------------- 
|