Area's sub-genre
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Topic: Area's sub-genre
Posted By: Oneiromancer
Subject: Area's sub-genre
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 20:41
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Are you sure that Area fits on Italian Symphonic Rock? I'd say Fusion, Canterbury, RIO, or even Raga Rock... but it doesn't sound like symphonic at all! It's so angular and strange when compared to PFM, Banco or Genesis... (ok, I admit it doesn't sound like anything I've ever heard before). I mean, the discussion isn't that important, but it would be similar to put Caravan on Avant Rock, wouldn't it?
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Replies:
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 20:48
you are quick.. they were moved today... read the defintion. That sub-genre is not a symphonic only sub-genre. ... it needs to be renamed. that is being worked on ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Oneiromancer wrote:Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 20:52
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as a matter of fact.. a more complete definition is being worked on as
well. In short is for the Italian progressive rock movement...
similar in nature.. but differently musically of course ..
to Krautrock. The musical similarities are there.. just much more
sublte
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 20:56
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and nice review of Arbeit Macht Frei... stunning album
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: October 09 2007 at 23:20
I just saw the review pop up and had a little chuckle when I saw the subgenre...had a feeling about what's going on. I'm sure many will disagree, but me likes it
On the surface, PFM and Area have about as much in common as Genesis and Univers Zero, but if you look carefully you can spot the things that unify "Rock Progressivo Italiano" in both groups. ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: October 10 2007 at 06:10
How can Caravan be 'avant' when after Soft Machine their are the archetypal Canterbury band, further the 2nd Caravan album If Could Do It Again was an attempt to jazz it up like Soft Machine IMHO.
Why do we get our knickers is acomplete twist wrt what aband's music is, by overdoing the sub-categorisation? - I'll repate yet again: we need the flexibility here to multi-tag bands since many bands simply don't stay musically in one sub-genre. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 10 2007 at 14:18
| I think the poster was making the same point Dick, he was saying it would be ludicrous to classify Caravan as Avant in order to make a point. |
Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: October 10 2007 at 15:50
Does that mean all Italian bands in the archives eventually will be classifyed under one genre?
 I consider Area Jazz-Rock, since they are Jazz-Rock, so I start wondering if they got moved only because they're from Italy?  ------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on! |
Posted By: andrea
Date Posted: October 10 2007 at 16:33
What's exactly jazz-rock for you and why are you so sure that Area "are" jazz-rock?
This is an interesting article about jazz-rock, but I think that Area don't fit this subgenre... http://www.ibiblio.org/johncovach/jazz-rock.htm - http://www.ibiblio.org/johncovach/jazz-rock.htm
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 10 2007 at 17:17
I suggest you listen to the albums.. . they are not a J-R group. Let me note Bj. This move was agreed upon by two teams... RPI... and .... yep.. Jazz-Rock. Those who know the group.. and the music. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: andrea
Date Posted: October 10 2007 at 17:19
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PAOLO TOFANI, from the foreward of the book http://www.musicalnews.com/articolo.php?codice=8281&sz=4 - Il libro degli Area (Editorium Edizioni) by Domenico Coduto: Per descrivere il significato e l’impatto che il gruppo musicale Area ha avuto a livello sociale, politico e artistico nel corso del breve ma intenso periodo della sua esistenza, bisognerebbe effettuare un’analisi ben profonda del tessuto giovanile e delle tensioni sociali, tenendo presenti le immancabili dicotomie collegate alla gestione del potere in un periodo storico complesso... Invece di passare interminabili ore nella sala prove cercando di vestire di significati la musica e i contenuti dei vari pezzi, tenevamo delle lunghe e stimolanti discussioni per cercare di mettere bene a fuoco il senso di quello che volevamo trasmettere, tenendo in considerazione i linguaggi, le problematiche e le speranze del mondo giovanile di quel tempo. Solo dopo aver chiarito e compreso gli argomenti trattati, cercavamo individualmente di esprimere a livello musicale quel che avevamo realizzato a livello mentale, per arrivare poi, finalmente, all’incontro collettivo presentando le diverse idee che venivano analizzate e dalle quali venivano estratti i vari elementi che andavano a creare una composizione musicale che esprimesse al meglio il concetto di unità nella diversità. Credo sia stato proprio questo aspetto a fare degli Area un’esperienza unica nella storia della musica di quel periodo... Sorry, I’m not going to translate... I think that the people who moved Area from Jazz-Rock to ISP should do it... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 10 2007 at 17:42
they were moved yesterday after J-R approved it... and more are to come. Frickin Antonious Rex are now in J-R. what some of you need to realize that some groups are put in subgenres ...not always because they ARE.. but because they fit best.. .when new subs come along, a band, if fits better in that new one, they will be moved there. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: October 10 2007 at 18:36
Hey, I have heard their three first studio albums, and they're jazzy enough to me(the reason I still consider them as J-R). Crac is one of my favorite albums these days actually, so claiming I don't know their music is a bit wrong to say, eh?
 But hey, I respect your decisions, but I was just wondering why they got moved so no offence to any of you. I just wanted to know
 ------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 10 2007 at 18:49
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a bit wrong perhaps.. my big yapper gets the best of me...sorry about
that. My last post .. pretty much says it all. They had
strong jazz influences.. enough to be put in J-R... but they fit better
now in RPI now that ISP is dead.. though it never really lived.
The new definition...when it is finished and posted on the front page
will explain why they are. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: October 10 2007 at 20:27
Going by the perameters in the essay, Area could be anywhere between prog rock and jazz - fusion. Although their work has an unmistakable jazz sound, composition plays a large role - but I haven't heard many live recordings, so I couldn't say how they went about these compositions in a live setting. Of course there's also a hefty serving of mediterranean/folk and avant-garde in their sound....really they defy categorization (I believe the members themselves preferred "International Popular Group". The first album and Crac! are closest to the "crossover" music Covach is talking about, but Caution... and Maledetti are mighty close to experimental jazz. I'd be interested to hear the opinion of RPI and fusion experts.
------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 11 2007 at 18:18
that is a great article Andrea posted... he posted that somewhere else before.. I had read it before. As far as my opinion... on Area.. yes they did have a hefty amount of jazz in their sound and music. However the way they fused arabic and greek musical influences in the sound .. added with a definte slant toward the avant electronic simply put them out of being considered a J-R group.. they weren't. and were never meerly a J-R.. Going back to what I posted earlier.. the question came to pass... which sub does this band fit best. The RPI team to a man thought RPI.. and J-R agreed as well. Instead of trying to think Area being in the same sub as Le Orme or PFM.. think of them being in the same sub as Battiato and Osanna.. who took a wide range of influences.. and made a sound completely unique to themselves. That range of influences.. which groups in RPI shared.. though in differing quantities of course. Some had a more symphonic natuare.. some folk, some jazz..Yet all used elments of all of them. That is what binds them together. The ambiguous musical nature of RPI.. is a perfect fit for Area.. and their ambiguous, and as you say hard to catagorize style of music. What holds it all together.. is the fact that these groups were part of a movement.. within a movement. The musical differences between them are so slight.. not once since I've been here have I heard complaints for those who have exlored the genre about bands that don't all sound symphonic or whate have you... they simply have a common sound that leads listeners naturally from a group like Banco to Pholas Dactlylus.. to Area... to the other extreme.. Battiato. not sure if I make any sense or even what you were looking for  . but that is my take. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: October 11 2007 at 23:20
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thanks for your reply micky,
not long ago I probably would have been confused with the way all of these bands are put into the same category, but I've come around to see that the so called "RPI" scene must be viewed through a socialogical perspective: it really was the product of a particular environment, with all of these influences present and a particular mindset...this is the impression I've had from listening/reading about people who were actually there - and it would be foolish to argue with experts, the ones who lived it and experienced it (ironically, there are probably still some who will).
Anyway, I understand what you're saying and I think this is what I was feeling in the first place. However, it is inevitable that when we begin grouping music on environmental/sociological grounds rather than aesthetic/structural grounds, it will cause confusion and mixed feelings.
btw, to all the collabs involved in this work: great job so far  , and you have quite a load of work in front of you, I'll look forward to possibly seeing more of the deep well of Italian progressive rock turn up at PA.------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: Cesar Inca
Date Posted: October 13 2007 at 15:27
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After reading the definitions, the term eclectic prog seems to me the one that fits AREA. There should be perfect consistance between the invention of new sub-genres and allocations. The musical essence of AREA goes further the Italian symphonic thing, farther so that it bears no symphonic traits at all.
Kind regards.
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Posted By: andrea
Date Posted: October 13 2007 at 17:02
I think it's wrong consider Area just in musical terms...
What about the meaning of tracks like "Il massacro di Brandeburgo n.3" or "Lobotomia"? They should be considered more as "conceptual or political acts" than as pieces of music... What about lyrics and Area's attitude on stage? If you don't know the Italian musical scene of the early seventies I fear you can't really understand Area's music... Of course, you can like it or dislike it, but you miss essential information...
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Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: October 13 2007 at 20:25
I would be very interested to read about the meaning behind of some of Area's music and the political events surrounding them. It's so frustrating not to understand what Demetrio is saying, but I would be plenty happy if someone could point out a site or articles (or whatever) that discuss this intriguing band. ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 13 2007 at 20:28
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I'll see what I can dig up for you Jimmy...
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: October 14 2007 at 01:59
kool thanks  ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: Cesar Inca
Date Posted: October 14 2007 at 18:37
I am aware of it although my Italian is very poor, and even one of my fave Area songs was sung in Greek, anyway. Nevertheless, as important as the political-philosophical aspect is for Area as a unit, it shouldn't be regarding this particular issue, which is the categorization of Area in PA. For instance, being RIO didn't make SMM a politically-oriented band, and that was one of the desired standards for the aforesaid movement; also, it's possible to be a band full of counterculture thinking musicians without being Zheul or RIO. I think that we should leave these lateral aspects for the reviews, which are supposed to explain (at least some) this kind of things to the reader.
Kind regards.
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Posted By: andrea
Date Posted: October 15 2007 at 10:01
Cesar, the problem is that most of reviews just tell if the reviewer likes or dislikes an album...
Just some examples: http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=896 - http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=896 http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=378 - http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=378 http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=2290 - http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=2290 I think that all the reviews above are good ones, well written (although with different styles) by competent people... Nevertheless the only information I can get is if the reviewer does like or not the album and more or less what kind of “musical landscape” you can expect to find... So, I feel there’s something important missing... For instance, “Lobotomia” was conceived not as a piece of music but as a “political act”: it was dedicated to Ulrike Meinhof, a German terrorist of the extreme left wing that some people would have liked to “lobotomize”... Cesar, you’re right when you say that it is “an exercise on electronic experimentalism designed to ultimately lobotomize the captive listener (or even displease the unsatisfied one a bit more for a bit longer) so that they can focus on their own organic reaction: it is not a piece to be enjoyed or hated, it is a piece that seeks to provoke some fireworks in the listener’s flesh”, but you don’t say what the song is exactly about... Many people don’t care about lyrics or ideology behind music, but a “prog ultimate resource” should give such kind of information and I don’t think that the single reviews are the good spot... What’s the best way to organize information? Just writing reviews or a “retrospective” in the blog space and put a link in the biography of the band? ISP is a subgenre that needs to be re-defined and it was an error to move Area from Jazz/Rock to ISP before a re-defining it, but in my opinion it’s better keep in mind that, as wrote Edward Macan, “music exists as a form of communication between people of a certain time and, most often, a certain place... Analyzing the sounds should not be an end in itself. The ultimate goal of musicology, in my view, should be to document the relationship between music and society, because people do not exist for music: music exists for people. I felt that only through reconnecting music to real people in specific times and places could musicology connect with society at large, engage it in a symbiotic dialogue, and thus avoid the death by social irrelevance to which a continued reliance on unexamined positivism will surely condemn it...” |
Posted By: Cesar Inca
Date Posted: October 15 2007 at 12:32
Point no. 1: Well, then let's write reviews that really go to the core of some needed explanations beside the aesthetical values.
Point no. 2: That's an example for a piece of information that might be included in a future review.
Point no. 3: I agree that there's much more to understanding and diffusing music than just facts and formal appreciation. On the other hand, I've always been against that gratuitous ISP label. The jazz-rock thing, on the other hand, doesn't feel too well defined, and the same goes for a couple of sub-genres here. AREA's music shouuld ba labelled here in PA accordingly to their defiant, eclectic approach to avant-garde rock. Macan was right on spot, although it takes an analytical approach to critizice the positivist concept of analysis. Even under the wings of a post-positivist approach, a certain distance between the analyzer and their object has to be achieved.
Kind regards.
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Posted By: andrea
Date Posted: October 15 2007 at 14:06
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Point no. 1: Well, then let's write reviews that really go to the core of some needed explanations beside the aesthetical values. Reviews have to be subjective and should express in some way the feelings of the reviewer about an album... According to the guidelines, the reviewer have to say if an album is essential in a prog collection or if it’s simply good or rather poor... Of course, reviews can be informative but there’s a lot of misleading reviews on PA and information sometimes is inaccurate (depending on the reviewer)... At the moment you can’t really give to much credit to reviews for “objective information”... Furthermore, criticize ferociously reviews with inaccurate information could inhibit some people to express themselves and post new reviews... Point no. 2: That's an example for a piece of information that might be included in a future review. Of course, it could be... But I fear it’s not enough. You can’t simply say that Area supported Terrorism without an explanation... I think you have to describe in some way the movement that generated those feelings, those energies, those sounds ... Sometimes ago I posted a blog about the Italianprog scene, but it probably needs to be updated for the purposes of the site... Any suggestion will be well accepted! Point no. 3: I agree that there's much more to understanding and diffusing music than just facts and formal appreciation. On the other hand, I've always been against that gratuitous ISP label. The jazz-rock thing, on the other hand, doesn't feel too well defined, and the same goes for a couple of sub-genres here. AREA's music should be labelled here in PA accordingly to their defiant, eclectic approach to avant-garde rock. Macan was right on spot, although it takes an analytical approach to critizice the positivist concept of analysis. Even under the wings of a post-positivist approach, a certain distance between the analyzer and their object has to be achieved. In my opinion a sub-genre is most of all a way to organize information... Keeping together in the same “sub-genre” the bands that “grew up” in the Italian scene of the early seventies and their legacy in my opinion is useful, ISP needs to be re-defined not dismantled... You can’t be too rigid when you “label” a band... Area’s music could fit other sub-genres, that’s true... But even if they didn’t want to be “labelled” at all and they always defined themselves just as an “International Pop Group”, in |
Posted By: Cesar Inca
Date Posted: October 15 2007 at 20:35
| Two books about AREA!! I didn't even know that one existed... I've got to purchase them in the near future. Oh, BTW, thank you for tour ideas. Andrea, as well as for you compliments regarding some of my reviews. Kind regards. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 15 2007 at 20:44
 nice job you two.... I really enjoyed reading that. Andrea was right Cesar, it was a mistake to move them without properly redefining the subgenre first, that has been corrected, and the matter of setting the parameters of that subgenre is being worked on. I asked Andrea to join the team... I think you can see why
We did had our reasons ....which Andrea noted, for moving
Area. It wasn't handled the best way though.. which Andrea has
told me in no uncertain terms  It would have saved a great deal of misunderstanding. He's the brains.. I was just the muscle hahhahah  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 15 2007 at 20:54
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^ I thoroughly enjoyed that discussion as well.. learned much about a perspective still unfamiliar to me, but am fascinated by |
Posted By: Cesar Inca
Date Posted: October 16 2007 at 09:40
That's a total bone of contention between us. The reasons why I am against the existence of the ISP label are the same ones why I'm against the hypothetical existence of French SP or Spanish SP, regardless of the idiosincrasies of their style as different from the tytpical British SP. If a band isn't symphonic, then there's no point in putting into a scheme of Italian or Iternational or Interplanetary symphonic prog, or whatever. That goes, of course, for Area, but also for Picchio dal Pozzo, Il Baricentro, Opus Avantra, and even Pierrot Lunaire, whose transition from pastoral prog to avant-prog makes them more eclectic than simply folk-prog. Thank God they're not at ISP.
If a band is symphonic, then there's nothing else to do but put it in the right label regardless of its country origin.
A Spanish band like Crack is very close to Italian symph, yet it would be out of place to put it in an ISP label, wouldn't it? We can also make clear distinctions between a band from Bahrein that plays neo from another one that plays RIO or fusion, right? Or is there a special kind of neo created in the Near or Middle East?...
The Canterbury label is a particular case, since it was an accidentally conceived word used as a label, but again, we know what we mean with it. But creating and maintaining a label such as ISP is opening door to arbitrary things. If ISP has to exist, please, let it be the only extra unnecessary label that exists in PA. Now that art-rock has diversified into a couple of more explicit labels, then OK.
Kind regards.
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 16 2007 at 09:43
| Cesar, I think you are absolutely right, especially since the label is a misnomer. Most of the bands currently under ISP are NOT symphonic at all - such as is the case of Osanna or Osage Tribe, to name but two. I don't know how things are going to develop in the future, but surely they can't stay like they are now - for the reasons you have just expounded, and for many others I won't go into now. |
Posted By: andrea
Date Posted: October 16 2007 at 15:42
I don’t think that there’s a “ total bone of contention” between us... Actually, I’m more concerned about “how to organize and to document information” than about “how to label bands”... Italianprog in my opinion should be “studied” as a whole entity... Re-define (and re-name) ISP from my point of view means “trying to explain and document in a rational way the common background and characteristics (musical and non-musical) of hundreds of bands coming from Italy in the early seventies and their legacy”... A label should be a tool, not a goal! First of all, what’s the purpose of a sub-genre? Just two examples, but I could post many more... According to the introduction to GEPR system, “the idea of genres comes basically from the question "What does it sound like?" In describing the indescribable, the music fan uses a number of mechanisms to help identify traits that further elucidate connections between what is known and what is being explored. Whether these traits can be considered valid or otherwise, it is clear they exist, and exist as a trait of the consumer, rather than the artist who often feels such labels to be limiting and corrosive. The intent of this writing is not to create labels, but rather to document them and explore their connections both legitimate and tenuous”... According to Allan F. Moore in his book “Rock: The Primary Text”, “because of the contradictions inherent in the notion of a single “progressive programme”, I shall treat “progressive rock” as a series of related but separate styles, each with their internal consistencies, some of which are not necessarily reactionary, but which deny the monolith of a single “progressive” rock. In their internal consistencies, these styles acquire a relative autonomy, but it is strict relative. As with all musical styles, they are grounded in social practice and historical conditions... In order to anchor my subsequent discussion of styles, one factor in particular cannot be ignored. It seems to me that the most important feature of mid-1960s’
Then, according to Progarchives... “One of the most defining characteristics of prog is the classification of bands and artists. There are various sub-genres of progressive rock (or "prog", as it is sometimes abbreviated). People can (and will) argue for hours about whether this or that band belongs in this or that sub-genre. This list below is just a simple outline of the characteristics of each sub-genre, and by NO means a strict guideline. Remember, this is not a definitive list...”
That’s true, discussions about sub-genres and labels could be infinite... |
Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: November 02 2007 at 16:28
this is also my point of view! ------------- 
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