is the term "song" used for prog demeaning ?
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Topic: is the term "song" used for prog demeaning ?
Posted By: Yorkie X
Subject: is the term "song" used for prog demeaning ?
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 11:38
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Ever felt like you are short changing prog by referring to a piece of prog say for example "Close to the edge" and saying to your friend "check out this song" ? could it be that the term "song" is best suited to pop music, country music, aor Rap, hip hop and metal ? classical music and prog deserve perhaps a little more distinction a little more clearer way of explaining it? I just feel when we use the term song we are indicating that the vocal melody is the main character and many pieces of prog don't even use vocals I know what I`m trying to convey here I`m not sure if you get what I mean ... here's hoping 
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Replies:
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 11:50
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I have no problem with useing the term song for shorter pieces, but calling Green Carnations Light of Day, Day of Darkness a song doesnt exactly feel right and the same goes for any of the big epics, say 15+ minutes.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 11:52
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hell.....there is too much prog with the description "song" the vital missing ingredient!
Nowt wrong with a good song! |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 12:01
| Neither of the two options really fits my point of view. I think that "song" is as good as any term - the thing is, a song should have vocals (singing is something you do with your voice, after all), and in prog there are so very many instrumental tracks for which the definition is not appropriate. However, as Rachel said, there should be nothing disparaging in calling, for instance, "Roundabout" or "Dancing With the Moonlight Knight" songs, while I can see the problem with longer tracks. |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 12:01
| I think the word "song" best describes relatively short, structurally simple pieces of music with vocals. |
Posted By: Okocha
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 12:01
| "Song" is ok with me... |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 12:28
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Song miight not be the best description for prog in general... but it helps in keeping conversations simple
------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 12:37
| What would be the alternative ? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 13:18
| ^ I tend to use the term "track" or "tracks.". |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 13:20
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Demeaning? Are you kidding? Regardless of content, it's only a song if it has singing. An instrumental is a tune. If it's really long and complex, perhaps neither fits alone, and needs either a new term altogether or another qualifying term. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 13:30
How about composition. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Easy Money wrote:Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 13:35
| In concert hall music a short compostion is called a piece. I think track is more hip though. |
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 13:37
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Not demeaning, maybe a bit misleading in some cases.
Really long compositions might be called suite or something similar.
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Posted By: kingdhansak
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 13:52
Song, track, number, whatever - just a word!!
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Posted By: R o V e R
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 14:00
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"Close to the Edge" by "Yes" is a Fantastic Song
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Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 14:04
Buddha, enlightment, nirvana - just words.Not my invention at all.
 Sorry for off topic.
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Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 15:01
| Depending on the track size...but it you refuse to call any prog song a "song" reminds me of those idiotic metal elitists. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 15:14
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 16:13
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It depends upon context I guess. But generally songs have to have singing in them - I could never refer to an instrumental as a "song". For the longer tracks it depends - I'd call Ritual - Nous Sommes du Soleil a song probably because the title is sung, whereas if I was refering to the track (or side) then I'd just call it Ritual. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 16:15
| Song it is. I see no problem with using song. |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 18:09
I don't know about you guys, but when I saw the tittle of the thread I thought: "Man. How pretentious can we get?!"  No Offense to the thread starter. It was just a thought.I don't mind calling them songs. ------------- 
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Posted By: valravennz
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 19:37
The term "song" is fine in general however I find it rather difficult to use it in the same sentence when talking about prog epics - the 15min+ er...compositions!!!  ------------- 
"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence" - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: anekglagard
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 20:17
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I call most "songs" on prog albums "tracks." I usually call the longer, more complex multi-part tracks "suites" or "pieces."
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Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 20:26
BINGO!
I personally think it is a slap in the face just to call Ctte or any other epic masterpiece a simple and crude song. The normal prog song is usually a track to me. ------------- 
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Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 21:46
when you think about it, Close to the Edge and Supper's Ready are really just 20 minute pop songs (albeit reeeeeeaaaaaly good pop songs).
The only thing that slightly bothers me is when people refer to an instrumental track as a "song"...c'mon, a "song" has words/lyrics
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 22:09
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No. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: September 10 2007 at 22:12
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I use "song" when appropriate, but I use "piece" at least as often.
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Posted By: Sckxyss
Date Posted: September 11 2007 at 01:19
| I don't use the word much at all, but I don't really care. I don't dislike it. There are often better words, but does it really matter? |
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: September 13 2007 at 09:33
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Songs or tunes. ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: jimidom
Date Posted: September 13 2007 at 09:48
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"Song" is fine, but I prefer "track". ------------- "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST |
Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: September 13 2007 at 11:40
Why would calling that a song make it seem "simple and crude" and "a slap in the face"?!  The word "song" does not infer simplicity or crudeness, nor is it a derogatory term or insult. I really don't understand the problem with the usage of the word song in progressive rock. Obviously, it's OK to call songs by other names, like track or composition, but that doesn't make the word "song" inferior in any way.... Progressive rock is not superior to other genres, it's just different, so there is no reason why it should be above the usage of "song". |
Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: September 13 2007 at 12:01
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Compact Oxford English Dictionary:
Song. Noun 1 a poem or other set of words set to music. 2 singing or vocal music. 3 the musical phrases uttered by some birds, whales and insects. 4 a poem, especially one in rhymed stanzas
If it's good enough for the OED, it's good enough for me. Really, how pretentious do you want prog to sound? ------------- Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 13 2007 at 12:40
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Posted By: Malve87
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 08:02
Well, actually there is a distinction, in your example you talk about "Close to The Edge", which is usually described, like more complex and longer pieces of music, as a SUITE... anyway there's nothing wrong with songs, since even progressive music is made of songs, how would you call "Wish You Were Here" or "Last Century For Man"? ------------- ] 
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Posted By: Malve87
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 08:06
I prefer "THRAK"  ------------- ]
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Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 11:59
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"Composition" is better.
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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 14:02
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One word is as good as any other. I like to say piece, composition or track in reviews but when talking to people that would be unnecessarily pretentious.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 14:07
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"Song"'s fine... it seems that the word has ended up being used even for instrumental pieces anyways. "Composition" somehow seems pretentious to me, even though it probably is a better term... that's probably just my working class roots or something ;-)
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Posted By: efoman
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 18:05
| Song is fine. It's a word everyone understands and uses. But it doesn't describe some prog music very well. Just another label.....kinda like "progressive". |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: September 15 2007 at 19:25
Lieder ohne Worte?  "Piece" certainly has its place, if there's no tune or if it's a seriously epic or off-the-wall piece of music. For anything else "song" will do just fine; I think this kind of semantic precision (or should that be pedantry?) is exactly what gave prog its bad name..!  |