"Overrated" largely a generational concept?
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Topic: "Overrated" largely a generational concept?
Posted By: Peter
Subject: "Overrated" largely a generational concept?
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 13:06
 Hmmmm... I wonder if the whole "overrated" thing (at least in regard to older albums) often breaks down along generational lines.
For those of us "of a certain age," we "were there" to experience the impact some of these ground-breaking, "important" albums and artists (ITCOTCK, SEBTP, Foxtrot, Brain Salad Surgery, TAAB, CTTE, Sgt. Pepper's, etc.) made at the time, and we may thus often treat the albums with a certain nostalgic reverence. (We rate with a view to the album's place in rock/prog history, and our own lengthy, happy, youthful history with it.)
With NO disrespect intended, I often find myself assuming, when I read some post saying how this or that widely-loved classic is "overrated" (I still hate that word because of what it implies about the album's fans and fond reviewers), that the writer must be much younger than I, and just wasn't there to feel what we did when the music was fresh and new, and really stood out from the prevailing norm. (Thus, I tend to take such disparaging, glaringly counter-to-the-majority statements with a HUGE "grain of salt.")
I also think, when classic albums inevitably garner a lot of gushing praise, that new listeners may approach them with the unrealistic expectation of being "blown away" (you'll see that a lot in their subsequent reviews: "from all of the previous reviews, I was expecting to be blown away, but I wasn't), or of having some sort of revalatory, life-altering, quasi-religious experience.
 What do others think? Is there a generational, "you had to be there" kind of phenomenon at work in these cases? We see it time and again: 40-something reviewer gives top rating, teen/twenty-something reviewer knocks it down because "it didn't blow me away."
Or is it just the innate cynicism of youth? Yes, I was a teen, and I have a teenage daughter, so I have some experience with this "everything sucks, especially what you like, Pops) mindset.
Waddaya think? Would big band or swing music, say, likely hit me anywhere near as hard, at this point, and so long after the form's initial societal impact, as it would have someone for whom this was the "rebellious" parent-offending music of his youth?
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Replies:
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 13:08
It must be about the hundred time you get angered on the terms of "overrated"/"underrated", Peter.   and it's the hundred time I say I don't have the simplest of care on these words.  ------------- 
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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 13:08
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After your post in the LA Woman thread I was expecting this...........   -------------  |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 13:16
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this thread is overrated. hah i made a joek! I'm cynical enough to use "popular" and "overrated" as interchangeable terms - after all, if the existence of one band overshadows other equally talented bands - which they almost always do - then it's justified to me. And honestly if you're moved defensively to assume immaturity on the part of a poster who feels differently about your favourite music then you should get some thicker skin grafted on to you. ;) ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 13:20
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Certainly the fact that you known this golden period affect (not in a pejorative way)your judgment, but you don't have to blame yourself for.
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 13:30
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I dont like the terms overrated/underrated for the same reasons as Peter, and do my best not to use these terms (I may have done in my earlier reviews before I full thought about the meaning of the terms). I take music on its own value and, for those classic albums, for their historical value. The problem is, the classic era of prog effectively came to and end 30 years ago, so their is going to be a lot of people that werent there when they were released so cant full appreciat and realise the effect they may or may not have had, being 21 I'm one of those. When writting reviews I just try to find out what kind of impact teh album had on the music scene when it was released, and also consider what effect the music has on me now. Its probably the best way to go about it and completely forget the overrated/underrated debate. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 13:31
(First of all, I am NOT "angry," but completely calm, and merely being thoughtful.)
 That's a rather knee-jerk, superficial response, I'm afraid, Rico. It's not so much the word that is the issue here, as what seems to be generationally-disparate ratings of widely-revered classics.
Think it through -- Beethoven's Ninth was absolutely revolutionary in its day. Can the modern first-time listener, who has been exposed to all that followed in music history, expect to have anywhere near the same jaw-dropping reaction, as the original audience reportedly had?
Without living through Beatlemania, and the Vietnam War, "flower power" era, could the music of that time (which was so much "of" that time) mean anything like the same thing to a modern youth? (in general.)
I think it works both ways, BTW -- lots of the stuff that is 'revolutionary' today (Mars Volta, etc.) may not hit the oldster with the same impact as it does the youth. (a lot of us are done with our "rebellion" -- now we are 'the man."
Again, this is NOT meant to offend, or to be a case of "us against them." I just wonder if art appreciation is largely "of its time" and a generational thing. (I was young too, remember. My parents sure didn't "get" Zeppelin or Quadrophenia -- my buddies and I sure did! The latter album REALLY 'spoke" to me when I bought it at 13. I still enjoy it now, but I don't walk around loudly singing -- and living -- the lyrics as my buddies and I did in '73!)  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Ricochet wrote:Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 13:37
Again, folks, the focus here is not meant to be the word "overrated" (perhaps the topic title was misleading -- sorry! ), but the ratings themselves.
Does having "been there" at the time (or not) largely colour the reaction to the art?
(I seem to see that it often does.)
Just a calm, reflective debate folks, just a debate -- I actually find this topic highly interesting, and want to hear from all ages. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 13:43
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As you say, Peter - your parent's didn't "get" LZ or Quadrophenia & had I played my parents ITCOTCK, they would have banished me from the house, never to have been allowed back - so yes, on a generational basis, whereas I love LZ, The Who & Crimson, my parents (and many of their generation) would have considered the albums I loved then (and still do) "over-rated".
Given the above, therefore, it's not altogether surprising that this generational divide works the other way - my parents loved Jim Reeves, The Joe Loss Orchestra & Country & Western... My reaction to such music has rarely been so polite as to consider them "over-rated" - ergo, it's only natural that so called "classic" albums from our "golden era" may seem to some younger listeners as dated, or +++that word+++
just don't sweat the knee jerks ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 13:46
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Maybe the plainest meaning to these words are the fact that a lot of attention get in front of one's disgreement, and viceversa, a lot of deceptions in the eyes of mine comes as unexplainable to one very addicted listener. The fact of generations, of oldsters taking it personal on the youngster's new perfected ways, or viceversa, the fine recent music listeners getting less the taste of the extensive past. To me,agressively, the "trend of words" can be a low-deserved and unfair in all scratched annoyment expressed towards an opposite expression or a massively-appreciated thing. If we have to say it so loud, maybe it can be in the human-nature to bicker unnecesarily. But let's put such a thought aside...  About Beethoven's Ninth, if you mentioned such an ageless thing, nevertheless as an example of estranged music to keep in mind these days, to the extent desired, I dare say it's about people enjoying or daring to take such a leap "back" (as if it's a regression of a music, not the best effort in art, by sound and composition, EVER) to classical music. Didn't "what the heck is Mozart compared to <<Schrapnel Gang>> I'm listen to" (or rather, in an opposite way, the thing of knowing classical music only by Mozart or by the "catchy" things spotted on) get sometimes to awful to everyone's years. not to "offend" myself anything now. But, again by impact, it's pretty rudimentary to make people think of their oldest roots, in a comfort they have no idea (or no interest of). perhaps.(I'm just saying this because, only a few days earlier, some member described the four-notes motif on Beethoven's Fifth as the mindblow of humanity - in its way, rather unsubtle. Then asked if prog music or rock plethora ever came in close to such a thing - a compliment, but rather an underappreciation to everything that "Beethoven's Fifth" ment. What actually about ratings. Don't they come as the last resort of an appreciation's outlook. Those, the words inside a rustling case of "under-appreciation" or "over-heaped euphoria" (generic) being mentioned, discussed, digressed or bickered? Time should be irrelevant, but it isn't. -------------
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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 13:48
Time is irrelevant - lunchtime, doubly so... -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 14:07
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Another (extended) analogy: When I read a Charles Dickens novel, for example, I read it for the story, certainly, but also largely as a sort of "time machine" or window on the past that can teach me a lot about a time well before mine, which nonetheless shaped my time. I know when the 19th Century science is wrong, and I grew up in an era when you marry for love, not class or money.
Still, without extensive reference to the literary scholarship and historical research whicjh informs the book's accompanying notes, I often won't really understand what is going on -- the sub-texts, implications, "in jokes" and contemporary references which Dickens original audience would have instinctively, instantly understood. In short, the book will never "speak" to me in the same manner that it did to my counterpart in 1850.
If I'm going to relate to the characters at all, I HAVE to put myself in their shoes. Romeo and Juliet couldn't just say "screw you Mom and Dad -- we're eloping to Verona to have a kid and live on welfare" because moving to a new town then, without prospects and contacts, was VERY difficult, and because, legally and morally, they OWED obedience to their parents. This expectation of obedience to one's elders was at the very core of their identity. Marriage for love, without consideration for class or wealth, was almost unheard of, and a dangerous concept which threatened the very fabric of their (and later, even Dickens' ) society.
To Dickens' (or Shakespeare's) contemporary readers, however, a book like Hard Times or Oliver Twist was modern -- it was up to the moment, and accessible entertainment for the masses (not "high brow" or anything).
Contrast Shakespeare's audience then (all walks of life, rich to poor, noble to labourer, to lowlife thief or prostitute) with his audience now (largely older, educated people in suits).
So: imagine me as a teen, experimenting with music (and other such consciousness-altering things
) listening to Tangerine Dream, ELP or Can on my headphones in my bedroom in the dark, with my parents sleeping across the hall, versus me lying on my couch now, with book in hand, a clear head, and my kids playing downstairs.It's just not the same! Synthesizers are old news! ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 14:19
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Thanks for the fuller thoughtful response, Rico. Now you see what I'm really getting at here, I believe.
We can never fully feel what the Ninth's first-time audience must have felt, because the Ninth is not revolutionary in symphonic structure (five movements instead of the normal 3 or 4, a CHORAL section, a popular, "revolutionary" poem integrated into the whole) any more.
We can try to feel what they felt (and reading the historical notes accompanying the disc will help a lot), but we never really can, as we are not 1800s men, living in a world recently rocked by the French Revolution and one Napoleon Bonaparte, but still clinging to tradition and what had been "right" for centuries.
(Ol' Nappy may seem a cool, romantic figure now, but he scared the living sh*t out of the established order then -- a regular "antichrist" or Hitlerian figure.)
PS: I'm still calm, still not angry, still interested! ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 14:31
You know me well, by now.
(Anyway, I thought few might see and/or read it there, in a thread with that title.)
And yes, in view of its LENGTH, few will bother to read it here, either....
 ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 14:33
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Um de dum de dum....
Tick
tick
tick....  ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 14:36
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^ BTW, Sleeper, that was a good, insightful, considered response -- thanks! I really appreciate hearing your (much!) younger thoughts on this issue. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 14:37
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Peter, I think you have a point here, but only if older prog is concerend. Otherwise I cannot see how this deals with the fact that Dream Theater is overrated as well, and already? No DT bashing intended, I once bought all their albums myself. (and I think it was Ugly Kid Joe who sang that 'sex is overrated too' about 15 years ago ) ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 14:51
Thanks, Angelo.
Yes, I'm largely thinking of older albums, and the unrealistically high expectations many younger, first-time listeners may have for them, after reading the gushing reviews of a bunch of older reviewers, who experienced the music as young, impressionable people, and in its historic setting.
Still though, I think the phenomenon cuts both ways -- one has to BE a teen or twenty-something, to relate to contemporary music (targetted to -- if not in fact made by -- that very demographic) the way a teen will.
Of course, there are ALWAYS exceptions to this generalization, and there are many such atypical listeners here, I know.  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 14:53
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I do not think that the liking/disliking of older prog has to do with generations. Maybe it has to deal with the way these albums/bands were introduced, people saying it is the best (being subjective all the way) or comparing it to a few things and saying something somewhat subjective about it (like I think this album sounds like so and so at times it is very good I appreciate the jazz influences). I think it is the younger generation reading too much into the older generations reviews (when the sound was new and totally awesome) and seeing that this album is said to be really good and having listened to music that came out of this period of older prog, were not "blown away" because they had heard similar sounding stuff in less doses. It may have to do with expectations of something. I try to not have expectations of somehting (meaning I don't really judge any book by its cover but rather by the content of the book) and am usually satisfied with the albums I listen to (does not matter how new or old it is) because I did not expect things from it. I read reviews and see people with similar tastes to me like the album so I buy it to give it a shot. I do not take the song by song reviews fully until I have heard that album and want to know this persons opinion on that specific album. So I think the "overrated" thing has to do with people forming opinions on reviews and taking the subjective as objective and not seeing the subjectiveness that was in the review in the music. I hope that made sense. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 14:58
An interesting point Jim. I have found of late that I am far more receptive to the music of artists my late parents used to enjoy. Now that I am freed of the shackles of having to deride such artists as boring, dull, out of date etc.; in order to retain my credibility, I find that I actually quite enjoy some of them.
(I won't actually name the artists as I feel my credibility is not entirely invincible!
) |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 15:43
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I don't think "overrated" is gerenational-related...if pure EGO-related... let me explain:
there are two ways of saying "I don't like X"
one is "I don't like X"
the other one is "the people who DO like X are wrong".
So while the first option is completely valid and expresses an opinion that comes directly from the person's mind, the second one is just a negation of what others have to say. If we leave the expression without any further explanation, you are not saying "I don't agree with you", but "you are wrong"... Instead of relying on giving one's personal point of view, the weight of this expression lies on the negation of what others' point of views consisted about... And why would a person choose that expression instead of the "I don't like X"? One can say that a thread called "i don't like X" wouldn't be so interesting or would incite discussion, but I, on the other hand, think it would be great if someone just started a topic with "I don't like X", gave us his reasons, and then asked for opinions. But when the thread is "the most overrated", the creator is saying "the band (or album or whatever) most people around here are completely WRONG about while I AM RIGHT", which is in itself a purely ego-driven remark.
So I don't think it has nothing to do with generational concepts but with ego situations. Because if I take as true the opinion that younger people may find older things not a relevant or as "blowing-away" as the people who were around that time, what would I (and coutless others) be? We love older stuff. In a way, we could say we are more of a true music fan than those who were around in, say, The Doors' time, for if you like it for a lot of reasons, we like it ONLY for the music.
I don't know what I just said but I hope someone gets my point.
 ------------- 
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Posted By: peter_gabriel
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 17:10
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why are so mad at us (teenagers) for having an opinion of something? i dont found a classical to be bad, but if I think an album is bad I will say it, dont care if its old or young now you are acting like a children.. why is it so important for you, the way we talk about classical albums... just hear the music with your mates.. |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 17:30
I agree with the general gist of your post. The term 'overrated' is one I tend to steer totally clear of because even if I don't like an album that is immensely popular, I do respect the fans of the album in question and I find the term 'overrated' faintly obnoxious to those fans. The 'classic' albums are often considered thus for a reason and are still beloved, often nigh on 30 odd years after they are made.
But it's not necessarily a generational thing, imho- certainly, it isn't in my case. I'm a 19 year old and pretty much all of the recognised 70s classics I do honestly love to bits. It's the more modern prog acts which I often would be a lot more reticent about writing 5 star reviews for (though I like what they do), or indeed, wonder if they will live up to the 5 star reviews which may well surround them because I came to them later than the 70s albums- this could probably be said to be the reverse of some who find some of the classics a bit disappointing.
I tend to personally think some reviews of more modern prog albums occasionally resort to sensationalist statements which can negate the legacy of not only the album in question, but also the legacy the classics have left (especially the more minimal 5 star reviews- a la 'band X is the best prog band ever and this is the best prog album ever'), but then perhaps it's because I discovered prog with the old albums first and the newer ones some time later. Had it been the other way around, chances are I may have had different feelings. I feel it sometimes depends on what you heard first which can create the impression of a generally considered 'classic'.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 18:14
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: Neil
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 18:19
Puts pedant's hat on "The actual quote is "Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so"" takes pedant's hat off. ------------- When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 19:36
At this time in my prog journey, I am definitely looking for that new thing to blow me away. I can name a few albums that, though I can give a 5-star review to many albums I own, will always be untouchable. Close to the Edge, Selling England By the Pound, and Images and Word will be associated forevermore with feelings I hope to recapture with new music. What's that you say, Pete? Images and Words with those classics? I gues there's that idea of having to grow up with it, eh?
Not everyone is like that.  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 00:46
Again, I am not angry at anyone.  I am just trying to have a sensible, grownup conversation with different people about a concept we should all have an opinion on, as this site has such a diversity of age groups: How does experiencing music at the time it is evolving differ from coming to it years later? To what extent is art "of it's time," and best (or as Mike suggests, differently) experienced by an audience from (and during) that time? Wouldn't a "revolutionary," even "dangerous" band (as the Doors were said to be by the American establishment at the time) be only fully "experienced' by their contemporary audience, with the Vietnam War and the draft still going on, as Jim crooned 'The End" or "The Unknown Soldier"? (Lyrics, particularly political ones like those, can be especially topical, and "to the moment," speaking directly to the audience's concerns and world view.) On a related note, how does aging effect how the long-term music listener reacts to music? Do we view the music we get into while younger (and first starting to really explore music, likely in the company of like-minded friends) differently than that which we come to when older, "seasoned" music listeners, with less, perhaps, of a sense of wonder? Is popular (rock) music (prog too) not "to the moment?" Is its immediacy not part of it's appeal? I know we can still thoroughly enjoy good music from before our time (I like lots from before mine), as most of our younger prog fans do. I know we older listeners can also gratefully "discover" albums from the era of our youth, that we had not heard then, and, of course, we can get into new music made by bands much younger than us. (I do all of that.) I know all of those things -- I am just wondering about the roles of age and "timing" in the reaction to art (music). I know myself, and I have my thoughts on the matter -- what do others think? BTW, thanks to all for the responses thus far -- some really good ones, from all angles and points of view! I'll respond to my esteemed colleague Mike next. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 02:21
Thanks for the response, Mike -- I knew I could count upon a thoughtful (and thought-provoking) one from you. As Maani used to say "peace".... and good night!  Chr*st -- that was two hours to type those two posts -- with I could type like the computer-savvy young folks can!  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Completely agree! I have some beatnik and Fifties, even Forties stuff I love (plus classical, baroque, rennaisance, medieval, etc)!Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 02:48
I know, Andrew -- I couldn't teach if I believed otherwise, and thanks for your excellent response! ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 03:42
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^^ Thanks for the elaborate reponse, Peter! About the"rose-coloured glasses": I think it boils down to whether someone wants objectivity or "subjectivity". I choose the latter, because I think that being completely objective about music is ultimately not possible ... guys like Certif1ed get very close - of course you can analyze the music and apply generally accepted music theories - but the result is IMHO not very useful for most people. This is why on my website I try to make the rating a very subjective statement ... just rate an album from 0 to 10 with 0="worst album of all time" and 10="My most favorite albums". About "old" music: One of my favorite pieces of music is the Rhapsody in Blue by George Gershwin, written more than 80 years ago ... And about the "grumpy old men": Of course I wasn't referring to you personally ... you're not that old! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 04:30
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Wow, this has been really interesting.......
I must say I totally agree with The T, I find the "X is rubbish" argument the thing that drives me most insane, and the thing that really makes me blow a fuse,... either excuse your self from the table (ie keep schtum) or be realistic (I don't like that, it's not to my taste). Having said that, those types of discussion lack passion, and passion is required with music (I believe) I don't care if your opinion is different to mine as long as it has passion and conviction...... saying something merely for the impact of the words will make me angry. I also have to agree with some of what Peter's initial points were..... although I am not sure if it is generational, maybe more "sibing rivalry"??? I don't know, but I do sometimes see it more as that "stick poking in the weak spot" that siblings find so entertaining. However, the generational thing does come into play a lot, and I don't want to come over as disrespectful, [because I am in awe of the many kids here who have found prog in such a difficult musical landscape] but I think there are some things that you can't "get" at a young age. I also remember the anticipation of waiting for some albums, the 'listening parties' at friends houses, the sheer JOY of some stuff....... and I regularly see this stuff labeled "overrated" by someone who was in nappies (or not even born) at the time. That is infuriating, because it feels like you are negating my youth. Of course you are not, and of course we are basing this on feelings...... there is no way we can predict the feelings of others, but as long as we remain POLITE and as long as we LISTEN as well as TALK then I think that everyone here can have equally valid and interesting points of view. I might think more when I am more awake............ ........but I might not!!!
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 08:07
I love that beautiful piece too -- ever hear the groovy 70s version by a guy called Deodato? It likely won't appeal to the purist, but it used to be a late-night FM radio staple. Check it out some time!  Thanks for that, whippersnapper , and thanks again to all who joined in this discussion.------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 08:22
Well said, P-C... I, too, remember the 'listening parties' at friends' houses, the long and intense discussions afterward, the replaying of certain tracks to make sure we "get" exactly what the musicians wanted us to... or sitting in dumbfounded silence the first time we heard 'Misunderstanding'
I think there's also an inherent laziness in the word 'over-rated'; instead of saying "I don't like this [classic] album, it's not to my taste, because...", it's a lot easier to say "nah - that's over-rated" -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 08:24
Thanks The Chai. I do get your point -- it was well made. I see the word that way too: not so much a comment on the poster's own taste, as it is an unfavourable, presumptuous judgment of the tastes of others. Effectively: "I don't like this popular thing, and those who do like it are less qualified to judge it than me, deluded, or deluding others" -- rather an insulting, condescending stance to take!  Whatever the actual age of the poster, I see using the word in a musical context (or perhaps any such other rating manner) as pure immaturity, and pure arrogance. Re the Doors and their time, what about the lyrics -- often targetting the issues (such as Vietnam) of the day? Now they refer to history, but then they referred to current events and mindsets. (Lyrics are very important to me.) What about the feeling of "Wow! This is really different and new -- no one else is doing stuff like this! How revolutionary!"? That might apply to someone hearing, say, Genesis or Yes in 72, but now, after acts like IQ (yay) and Starcastle (yuck), those pioneering bands' sounds are not really new any more. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 08:32
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How about underrated? Although the late '60s and '70s albums don't have the same impact as they did on many of you guys and girls, I still love a lot of the releases just as much. I'd love to have been around when the Softs were in full flight and touring, I'd love to have seen VdGG in their heyday, but alas, I cannot, but I do have their records (both studio and live) to fall back on. Nothing really beats a live concert by a favourite band (unless it's a stinker - Jim, was that you?) of course. The music would have been fresh back then, as nothing like it had gone before. There's an inherent problem with many modern bands and that's a lack of creativity in many respects. They have the musical ability, but they try too hard to sound good and often end up sounding mediocre. Bands from the '70s not only tended to be more original compositionally, but they were also treading new ground and people were more difficult to please. Music has been saturated now. You get a lot of progressive moments in a lot bands' music now and so to those brought up in the '70s, the music sounds less original in many respects. My parents have often commented on my music saying "oh, they were doing stuff like that back in the day". Of course, they are correct. What does annoy me quite a bit though, is youngsters nowadays who basically hate regressive music. I have a friend who dislikes anything that whiffs of old music. He likes fresh sounding music and dislikes minor notes. Anyhow, this has turned into more than I planned, so do continue on and get back on topic. -------------   
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 08:32
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^ And thanks to Prog Chick for another fine, insightful response. Glad to know I'm not the only one who really dislikes the near-ubiquitous use of the "O" word here. Talk about your OWN tastes -- don't presume to judge the "rightness" or "honesty" of MINE!  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 08:38
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I don't really need to be up yet -- in view of last night's sleep-depriving posting frenzy, perhaps another hour of sleep is in order.... Later, progholes!
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 08:41
I'm not sure that T's explanation actually tells what happens when someone uses the word, but it's an accurate depiction of how it looks like from the outside. I do find it very condescending, even if I suspect the person is trying to be objective and make a judgement. It hurts and people should refrain from using it, and find better words to express their critical attitude. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 08:42
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Ignore me then, Peteykins! Have a good sleep. That sounds like a good idea. -------------
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 08:43
| Hmm no one has commented on my previous post. Hmmmm |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 08:43
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Wrong room, Ben.
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 08:45
No not the wrong room. I meant this:
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 08:45
Sweet dreams, and THANKS FOR THE FINE RESPONSE, GREEKOIL! ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 08:46
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Oh, I thought you meant the bass playing post in that other room next door.
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Posted By: kazansky
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 09:16
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I think the way things become considered as overrated actually is only a matter of point of view,or tastes. Because something that good for someone won't always become a good think for other people. 'Overrated', i think is just a different term that used as a different way to say that someone actually doesn't like a particular thing.
As a matter of musical tastes, (and other things too, i believe) generations sometimes can make a gap, and it's normal. The more important thing IMO is to think 'If you don't like it, then just leave it, no need to bashing it in public'. It's not that it would kill you to have other people like something that you don't anyway. Taste is personal, and people shouldn't be too bothered complaining other's tastes. For example, i hate rap, but should i say to everyone that listen to rap that their music is crap ? Terms such as overrated (and underrated as well) while sometimes is inveitable, it shouldn't be made as common terms among society. yours sincerely  ------------- The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 14:57
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All of you people are overrated....I, on the other hand, am underrated...
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 14:58
No you just don't get it. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 22 2007 at 15:14
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Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 14:51
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Instead of saying overrated how about popular selections I don't care for? It actually is more accurate. Overrated usually means something that is highly touted by its makers and sometimes professional critics that actually falls flat on its face in public opinion. In that case all of prog is overated.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 20:13
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The thing about overrated is that it can mean anything from "great, but not a pure masterpiece" to "pondering how this album could have achieved success causes me to lose sleep". Whenever I use it, I use it in the first extreme, and anything I find atrocious doesn't even get the honor of being called overrated.
As for the generational argument (the actual argument of the thread), it's hard to say. I certainly think witnessing the impact an album has is a lot more powerful than someone like me picking up a CD remaster thirty years later and not liking it. However, I call an album dated extremely rarely because I recognize that many of these album have made impacts and it's unfair to dock points from an album for not sounding relevant thiry or more years later (though it certainly wins points for staying relevant i.e. Quadrophenia). In the end, it depends or whether or not the listener can accept that the album was made for the time it was made and some things won't sound fresh, but others may still be as poignant today as they were then.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 04 2007 at 05:51
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Coming back to the initial topic (Peter's post): I think it works both ways. Sometimes youngsters might feel that the old masterpieces are overrated ... sometimes "oldsters" might feel that the masterpieces of modern prog are overrated. In the end both are wrong - and right. The word "overrated" is the problem ... it's suggesting that the ratings of other people are wrong, which is not possible since they're all opinions. If someone feels that Dream Theater - Images & Words deserves 5 stars and is a prog masterpiece ... there is *nothing* that anybody can do about it. And if the same person gives 2 stars to Yes - Close to the Edge ... again there is nothing we can do about it. Bottom line: we all have favorite styles and albums ... we regard them highly, and sometimes we wish that more people would share our opinion. But you can't change other peoples' minds - all you can do is to present your arguments, give them a chance to explore these albums themselves and *maybe* they'll change their minds, but as soon as you try to "push" them in the right direction, they might turn the other way. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 04 2007 at 06:28
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We judge the music+artist rather than just the music on its own merits. This means that a 3-star album could get a extra point if the person *loves* the artist or be docked one if they don't. This happens across the generations, we all do it subconsciously - it is human nature. It is like that first painting your 5-year old kid brings home after their first week at school (12 years on an it's still blu-tak'd to the 'fridge door
) - you know it's not very good, but it's by your 'baby'.The eye-opener for me on first visiting this site was the impresive number of 'youngsters' who venerate the old bands beyond reproach, compared to some of us 'oldsters' who can now see only their faults and foibles. If anything, it is the grumpies who dislike modern prog that are the problem I don't dislike the 'overrated' word as such and see nothing wrong in pointing out that some albums are not that good even when viewed in context, some old albums that are 'rated' today weren't that well liked back-in-the-day, sol the reverse can be equally true. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: August 05 2007 at 00:01
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Wow -- some great new responses to an old thread -- thanks!
I know that sometimes I might come across as condescending here, but it's not my intent. I value all opinions, and hope that others, on whatever "side," might find this topic interesting too. Age and generation, old prog and new prog are facts of life here -- we should be able to discuss them and their impacts. Thanks for taking part so civilly, all!  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 05 2007 at 00:38
For me the word OVERRATED implies many supositions:
Ergo Overrated is the most arrogant term in English language, it simply means all the others are wrong I am right, their taste sucks, mine rules.
 Iván
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: August 05 2007 at 17:09
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The term overrated is so overrated........ |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: August 05 2007 at 17:18
This joke is also overrated ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: August 05 2007 at 19:34
Perhaps it is just too great for you.
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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: August 06 2007 at 03:42
Not to forget of course that opinions, being the subjective fickle things they are, can change; how many times have you seen an old 'classic' album referred to here, thought "That's a great album - I haven't heard it for years", bought it on CD, listened & thought... "Oh... ". Thus, over the years what you considered once to be 'under-rated' can on later listening and with grey hindsight become 'over-rated'. -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |