Proto and Prog Related
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33517
Printed Date: March 03 2025 at 12:18
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Proto and Prog Related
Posted By: cmidkiff
Subject: Proto and Prog Related
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 10:24
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Should "Prog Related" and "Proto Prog" be on "Prog Archives" as reference only categories, and not be included in the reviews and top ratings lists? Or should they stay as they are?
I say as reference only,after all they are not genres of music. They make the site too watered down. You come to the site and what do you see on the home page? Led Zepplin or the Beatles? Even though "Prog Archives" isn't claiming that these are prog the casual visitor may not pick up on that. Or maybe we should go one step further and include another category called "Prog Opposite" and include everything that is absolutely not prog. ------------- cmidkiff |
Replies:
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 10:32
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I'm moving this poll to the Help Improve the Site section, as this is where it belongs. As to your question... What do you mean by 'Prog Opposite'?  |
Posted By: CrazyDiamond
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 10:32
Yeah, sometimes is.. uh.. strange to see on the homepage so much Doors, Zep or Queen reviews. You might be.. yeah.. right 
------------- 
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Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 10:42
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I say we return to the categorizations of day one on this site. And that includes getting rid of "prog metal" which to me is a contradiction in terms.
Yeah, that's right, you heard me...
Oh really, well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree...
Whoa...are you sayin' you want a piece of me?
Well, I got news for you, metalhead, I could drop you like a sack of dirt...so if you want to start something, just try me, just try me, because I would LOVE to take it outside and slam that flying V right upside your head...  ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: kazansky
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 10:43
i don't really get what you mean ------------- The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us. |
bluetailfly wrote:Posted By: andu
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 10:46
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Deja-vu... I suggest (again) that proto and related issues to be drawn from the ratings count (and consequently from the top 100), and also their links to be drawn out of the "prog sub-genres" menu from the home page, in order to have their own dedicated sub-menu (with various listing types of menus, definition pages, top 50, etc...) This would help the site and these categories both at the same time.
------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 10:46
I just goofing around...sorry,  ... that was a pretty obtuse rant, it wasn't directed at you at all, but to an imaginary "metalhead" who would be offended by my comment.
You know, this whole categorization thing gets pretty volitile sometimes, so I'm just satirizing the whole thing... ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 11:12
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I would vote "Be listed as reference only".. If I could vote. "You can not vote in this poll". OK then. Especially "Proto-Prog" and why not "Prog Related" too are a nice feature, but these items shouldn't be on the first page nor in the top lists, or they should have own lists or something IMO.
Edit: Voting problem solved...
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 11:16
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my two cents has always been.. let them have their reviews.. let the
main page be for prog albums only. Sure that would only involve some
tweaking of the program.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 11:17
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I think the home page should show only the "true" prog bands, and that there should be a door or a sign icon that points users to the alleyway that displays the message "Servants Entrance" that would allow users into proto-prog or prog-related band review... ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 11:22
Next time, please, when you are 'goofing around', add an emoticon as the site rules point out. Your post might very well cause offense to those people who like metal and don't like to be depicted as morons - even in jest. |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 11:23
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I can see maybe moving the poll, but why did you take away the ability to vote? I wanted to see what the opinion of the PA community was quantified in votes. After all its still a poll, maybe you should move it back.
As far as 'Prog Opposite' thats just sarcasm 
------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 11:25
hahahha yes.. even the acne-scarred masses have feelings too   ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: kazansky
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 11:25
my assumption is after the thread was moved, you can't vote for a while ------------- The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us. |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 11:29
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It is good the way they are. The owners want everything to be possible to review. Who really cares about the useless top 100 list? So this is the point. |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 11:31
If nobody cared, it wouldn't have been there.
If it was so simple, there wouldn't be all those bitter arguments regarding these categories and the respective bands. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: kazansky
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 11:34
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i dont' think that the top 100 list is useless as well. about the proto prog and prog-related, i think the way they are now is good enough for me. after all this site is about the ultimate discography of prog, so everything about prog could go on the front page
just my opinion... ------------- The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us. |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 11:34
Sorry...and for the record it wasn't my intention to depict metalheads as morons, just justifiably upset at someone who would claim that "prog metal" is a contradiction in terms... ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 11:38
The top 100 list was discussed many times and the conclusion reached is that the list doesn't have problems because people complain about it for some time and then forget it.
These arguments are very old, but nothing has changed because it seems quite good to those who rule the site. Those dissatisfied can ignore the bands or use another site. |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 11:41
I don't think you'll have the ability to vote at all now, and a vote would have been nice and seen by more on the home page. ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 11:44
Oops.. it wasn't me who took the ability away. Polls are not allowed in that section, so I'll just have to move it back to where it was. Edit: back to normal... |
Posted By: kazansky
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 11:48
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right ! now i can vote...the second option for me ------------- The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us. |
Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 12:01
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I think these categories are essential to invite the casual "surfer" to investigate true progressive music. I see no reason to narrow the scope of this site. Anyone who investigates further due to Led Zep or the Doors will figure out the main objective of progarchives soon enough and either stick around or move on. ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 12:17
But with that line of reasoning all rock would be included as its releated to Prog. As far as the lists go, it gives an idea of what is rated good here in relation to Prog rock, so those who may of never heard of an artist might check them out using the list. Those other catagories are simply not prog and you could check them out on an ordinary rock site. If you include them, then why not include "Prog Opposite" as a genre? Its also related, as it would be the opposite of prog. ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 12:19
Maybe we could lure them in with Madonna, too. ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 12:21
Thank you  ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 12:50
| Reference only! |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 12:51
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I would let proto the way it´s now, bands like the Beatles and Procol Harum opened many doors for what was to come (I would take Deep Purple and specially the Doors out, but that´s another story). But prog related should not be a part of the 100 list of album, as here it´s the prog albums we are taking in consideration...but to be honest, apart of havin every day more and more non prog acts in this site, this doesnt bothers me much
------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: CrazyDiamond
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 13:14
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^ me too. I will let the Proto Prog section where it is, 'cause my point of view is that band like Procol Harum or the Nice are far prog than some modern band listed under Art or Symphonic prog. Before Prog Archives I've always thought that Procol Harum or The Nice, for example, were THE bands who make prog music , and not a PROTO PROG music.
edit* ops the nice are no more under proto prog section.. eh eh.. but have they been once or I'm just drunk?  -------------
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Posted By: Proglodita
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 13:30
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Maybe you’re interested in a newbie’s thought, although I have been visiting this page for a couple of years or something. I agree to remove the prog related and proto prog from the home page because, for example, these pasts weeks I’ve been seeing a lot of The Doors, since it seems to be just added (am I wrong?). Is this the aim of the site? The Doors deserves a space, but like a related item, not a main one. If you are reading a top 100 of prog you don’t expect to see Made in And finally, I’d prefer not to see Iron Maiden never again on the site, understanding (well, I can’t, but I have to) that deserves a space too. ------------- P |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 13:35
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Reference only, I'd say. ------------- sig |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 13:35
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^ You see that with new bands that are still fairly popular. It will die down and then we will be back to normal on Close to The Edge, Wish You were Here and Selling England by the Pound reviews dominate the front page again.
All of the genres here are artificial. Not one these are meant to be strict guidelines to anything. It is a way for some people who feel the need to categorize everything. The best suggestion I have heard, and I promote it freely, is using multiple descriptive tags on albums not bands.
Of course by doing so we run the risk of having nothing to talk about anymore. ------------- 
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 14:05
Genres are more useful then just randomly placing things into catagories. If I'm looking for new music I won't waste my time checking out bands that are in the genre of "Rap". There are too many albums available to be checking everything out, and I'll save a good deal of time focusing on a genre that I like. I agree that the clasification emphesis should be on albums and not artists as its not impposible for an artist to change their style. ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: theBox
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 14:18
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Reference only guys!!! I mean, come on...who the hell wants to come
here seeking obscure underground bands only to find the front page
dominated by Iron Maiden, the Doors or Queen reviews????
------------- |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 14:43
So are saying if you came across an album by Frogg Cafe that was tagged Jazz-Rock, Fusion, Zappa influenced, Violin, Horns, Vocals and a Helmet of Gnats CD that was tagged Jazz-Rock, Fusion, Return to Forever influenced, Mahivshinu Influenced, instrumental .
Are you saying that is less descriptive than simply Jazz-Rock Fusion for both?
 And if you find rap albums here or Hip Hop and R&B as well because they all employ the talking vocal style we should blow this place up.
-------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 15:00
The Doors were only just added. There's always a flood of reviews when a well known band is added, but they soon settle down to a trickle.
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Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 15:07
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So are saying if you came across an album by Frogg Cafe that was tagged Jazz-Rock, Fusion, Zappa influenced, Violin, Horns, Vocals and a Helmet of Gnats CD that was tagged Jazz-Rock, Fusion, Return to Forever influenced, Mahivshinu Influenced, instrumental .
Are you saying that is less descriptive than simply Jazz-Rock Fusion for both?
No ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 15:09
Thats a good point. Altering the top100 list either by removing the "prog" refrence from it or removing proto/related artists out of the list would be a great move. Couldn't there be f.ex. another toplist for proto&related!
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 15:18
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I see as a contradiction to include a band in a mainly rating and reviewing Prog site and don't allow to rate them.
Leave it like this.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: ozzy_tom
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 15:20
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Keep them the way they are! I think that such a great bands like Procol Harum, early Deep Purple, Vanilla Fudge, The Doors, The Gods, Iron Butterfly, Touch had a big influence in prog-rock. (Anyway who replaced band "Salamander" to this genre? As I remember it was listed as an art rock band before and it was a good place for them. Besides they recorded their only album in 1971 so how it can be listed as proto-prog?!).
Anyway I think that name "proto-prog" should be change into "psychedelic rock" 'cause such a music was known under this name in these times... -------------  
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Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 15:26
The problem is they are not Prog. ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 15:27
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The delete them, there's no reason adding a non Prog band to a rating review Prog site and not allow rating and reviewing.
If they are here, there's a reason plus a relation with Prog and it's rating.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 15:34
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I feel like Bill Murray in "Groundhog Day"... ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 15:37
That's our fate and in every site I visited, the topics keep repeating.
4 decades of P¨rog....this means that there are very few really new things to add.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 15:54
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IMHO proto-prog/prog-releated bands and reviews will ever have the minority in the future - because this is a Progressive Rock site - leave it as it is! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 16:10
I agree, but the problem is that the site is infected, and that infection may grow, has the possiblity of growing and overwhelming the host site. As long as that possbility exists, I am not comfortable and will not be comfortable. Infidel bands are here mingling their low style of living with the hallowed prog bands. I myself have come to the home page to be personally effronted by a picture of Jim Morrison, a most un-proggy infidel, and a rave review by one of his most depraved followers.
I think a jihad-like movement needs to return the site to the prog boundaries set forth by holy men E. Macan and P. Stump. We need a cleansing by fire...
 [Note: the real emoticon I need here to convey irony doesn't exist; we need a better emoticon palate. I'm trying to cooperate with the emoticon thing, but they're not relevant to my purpose. Just an FYI to the admins.] ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: Proglodita
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 16:20
Yes, it has to be possible to rate them, but the results should be keep apart, not in the spotlight maybe. ------------- P |
Posted By: blaughida
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 16:26
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Both categories should be reviewable. I'm mainly here to explore progressive rock, yes, but I definitely appreciate having reviews of proto and prog-related bands. The idea as I see it is that many prog fans might be interested in these bands, too, and if I might be interested in an album I'd like to see what people think of it. I do somewhat understand the objection to having bands thus classified in the top 100, but while I wouldn't particularly object to taking proto-prog and prog-related albums out of this, I don't think it is at all necessary. The top 100 is phrased as "progarchives' most popular titles" and makes no claim to be the "best 100 progressive rock albums ever made" or anything of the sort. |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 17:03
If they are just in the minority, how is that they are making it into the top 100 on a progressive music site? ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 17:10
Exactly, see my previous post re. "infection." ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 17:24
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[QUOTE=blaughida] Both categories should be reviewable. I'm mainly here to explore progressive rock, yes, but I definitely appreciate having reviews of proto and prog-related bands. The idea as I see it is that many prog fans might be interested in these bands, too, and if I might be interested in an album I'd like to see what people think of it.
*But what if prog fans are interested in classical music as well. Should those be listed too, in case we want to see reviews of them as well* I do somewhat understand the objection to having bands thus classified in the top 100, but while I wouldn't particularly object to taking proto-prog and prog-related albums out of this, I don't think it is at all necessary. The top 100 is phrased as "progarchives' most popular titles" and makes no claim to be the "best 100 progressive rock albums ever made" or anything of the sort. *That is true, but isn't this suppossed to be a progressive web site? Isn't it peculiar to see "Abby Road" in the top 100? I think if I went to a Heavy Metal website and saw "Abby Road" in their top 100, I probably wouldn't take their site seriously.* ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: January 22 2007 at 17:29
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^^^And on this site you can see both Abbey Road and Heavy Metal, and please, you should take it seriously.
On classical music point - I would not mind to see it here as well. ------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 08:10
Unfortunately, I just realized you didn't move this poll back to where it was. Instead you actually moved it into "Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge" where of coarse those who come here will be more likely in favor of keeping them where they are. Pointless I must say. ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 14:12
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The reason it is in this section, is because it is about proto prog and prog related.
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Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 14:19
 ... infected and very clever ... ???
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 15:18
Actually, its about the whole site, and only those interested in proto prog and prog related will see the poll and of coarse vote accordingly. Those who aren't interested in proto prog and prog related may not ever even come to this part of the forum. ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 15:26
| I think it is a good addition to the site, but I am tired of seeing massive reviews for proto and prog related bands when they are added. Besides that I think it is a great idea to find out what bands influenced prog or are not exactly mainstream rock. It should stay as it is. The bands that are in these categories have been argued over a lot to include their entry into the site so I think the site isn't getting diluted too much. |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 16:05
I'm also intrested in these bands, but I didn't want to completely remove them. Just move them to a referance area. I have nothing against these bands and actually have albums from most if not all of the Proto prog artists and a allot of the Prog related artists as well. ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 16:18
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I think there is merit in the idea of completely seperating Proto/Prog-Related bands from the real Prog bands,however these "artificial" genres are here to act as a stepping stone from rock to Prog Rock.
Meaning: someone who likes the longer "epics" of Iron Maiden might just discover Dream Theater or other Prog-Metal bands by being drawn here. They see the "metal" part of the tag "prog-metal" and listen to some of the Mp3s.They like what they hear and little by little they get drawn into the world of Prog,join the forum and discover the broad spectrum of Prog Rock. Ok,so this might only happen 1 in every 2000 hits but we get more than 50000 hits per day so maybe its worth it. This might sound fanciful but its worth it if it works. |
Posted By: WaywardSon
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 16:29
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I voted keep it the way it is. I like the idea of proto/related used as a big net to lure people to Progarchives.
In fact I would like to see a bigger net!! (I´m probably in the minority here)
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 16:29
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What Tony says shows why these categories were included in the site, imo. Otherwise people would not be drawn to the site. |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 16:50
I'm sure sex could lure more people in
------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 16:51
It most likely is worth it, but like I said before I'm not saying to git rid of them. Its just not very accurate to list "Abby Road"(as good of an album as it is) in the top 100 on a Progressive site. I'm still curious how the rest of the members feel about this. Any chance of moving this back into the general polls forum? ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 16:53
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I want to expand my reply:
I.- I agree with Tony, it's necessary a link from Mainstream to Prog and that's Prog Related, I don't have any problem with Proto Prog because this sub-genre is widely accepted and the bands there already have enough Prog elements. A genre is not born in one song or one album it's a process and Proto Prog is the third step in this evolution:
II.- I believe there should be some limitations in Prog Related:
Opinions please? Iván -------------
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 17:02
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@cmidkiff We like threads to be in the right place. Otherwise we end up with chaos.Consistency is also important.Many members believe their thread is crucial and get upset when it is moved to the appropriate forum. If every thread was started in one forum most threads would be lost forever in a matter of hours. I know WHY you want it to be in the Prog Lounge and I have some sympathy with that,but this thread is not new news. We are well aware that there is unease about Prog and Non-Prog sharing the frontpage, the Top 100 poll etc, many collabs and some Admin share this unease. The man upstairs however wants it the way it is now. The Admin Team continue to update him with feedback about this and a host of other subjects and he is aware of the level of feeling but he doesnt share the level of emotion this subject stirs up.He doesnt really understand why people get so worked up about this. Of course it's his site and he has the final say. I feel the correct zone for this is in the "Help Us Improve The Site" Forum.
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Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 17:14
The "Help Us Improve The Site" Forum is a more accurate location, its just that it won't allow the voting option. I think I understand why the man upstairs doesn't get as emotional about it and wants it this way. -- My guess would be that ultimately it brings more traffic to the site. ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 17:16
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Guidelines: "Reviews should be a MINIMUM 50 words preferably substantially more, no maximum."
So how can we have less than 50 word reviews? NO WORD reviews? I'm saying this because that is a EXPLICIT recommendation that isn't followed... Now, to the topic. Ivan said we can't review a prog-related album with a 5. I'd say: It doesn't say so in the guidelines. Of course I know LOGIC will say: if the 5-star rating means "a masterpiece of progressive music", then we shouldn't be giving 5 stars to an album we don't completely agree is progressive. But then again, and only reading the text itself, it doesn't say "progressive rock music", but "progressive music", so I think we could interpret the rule as saying "you have to consider the album progressive in your view and a masterpiece", not as saying "DOES IT AGREE WITH THE DEFINITION OF PROG?" Of course, if we interpret furthermore and go to the SPIRIT of the rule, probably it was meant as to signify "progressiveROCK music"... but again, the rule is ambiguous so I think we perfectly can give 5 stars to a prog related album. The prog-related genre is necessary to build a bridge between mainstream and prog, some artists should be here and some in the other shore (as I said about Peter Gabriel), but now that we have the genre, shouldn't we be allowed to give it the same rating treatment as to the others? ------------- 
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 17:27
I dont doubt that but I dont believe that is the real issue regardless of how you interpret the benefits of bringing "more traffic to the site". I think the real issue is whether Prog-Related/Proto should be allowed equal prominance with real Prog.... Again Max wants to see reviews for Proto/Prog -Related on the frontpage but as The T mentions there are real problems with giving these albums 5 stars, it doesnt seem logical to award Rainbow Rising 5 stars, as a progressive music masterpiece, on a Prog site does it? Same with the Top 100, ok it is based on ratings but do we need to have Proto/Prog-Related albums in there? We have to balance the financial needs of the Site with the need to be a genuine Prog resource. It makes sense on both counts to include prog-Related bands but to what degree? Where is the happy medium? What other ways are there of drawing visitors to the site? |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 17:30
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I think Ivan's idea is good, it has my vote (and for T's sake, we'll change the guideline for the 5 stars rating into "Masterpiece of prog" ). That not impossible to comply to; for example I'm preparing to make a review of the full Zeppelin discography, it's my favourite band by far, every zepp item (and I mean even the poorest bootleg) gives me a 5 star experience; but I am not going to rate with 5 stars any of their releases, not on this site; from about 15 releases, maybe four or five gould get from me the four star rating... Nothing more. There can be objectivity, yes. However, I think it's impossible to get it done because it can't be applied retroactive. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 23 2007 at 19:00
Somebody said that his can't be applied because it would be retoractive..That's not necessarilly accurate, during one period we were allowed to give 0 stars ratings to some albums, I remember giving no stars to ABACAB, GENESIS (SHAPES), INVISIBLE TOUCH, BIG GENERATOR and a couple more, but when the rule was changed, the system automaticly changed my 0 stars to 1 star, and of course I had to accept it, being that the owners must always have the last word in the internal policy of the site and in this case it's a bit harsh to say your album is worth nothing.  -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 24 2007 at 00:26
Man, it must be a pain in the ass to be against you as a lawyer!
 OK, as a collaborator or more, you know that, I didn't. (I reallly haven't counted word-for-word...first mistake, you have to prove your evidence is good, don't you?
) About the related thing, I stay on my position that the guidelines are like an ambiguous article in a Law that the legislator didn't write with utmost clarity so that the lawyer and then the judger have to interpret its meaning.
But you said it right: donde manda capitan, no manda marinero. Y teniendo en cuenta que ni siquiera conozco al capitan, mi posicion es de polizonte.
But having that in mind, I can still post 5star reviews for prelated, as the owners don't complain! No problem anyway, I still haven't find the album that deserves that rating and is prog related...(actually, I was thinking in doing that with UP or Muse's latest). Let's see. But a 0 star rating, I wouldn't complain about that!
-------------
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: January 24 2007 at 03:51
| One slight correction to Ivan's post. Reviews with less than 50 words (actually 200 letters) are not deleted, the they are jsut treated as ratings without reviews. The text is retained, but not shown. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 24 2007 at 04:06
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No. I like Proto and PR, they enhance the site and I think it's great to see artists so crucial to prog development like the Beatles here that all can write about. There have been new catagories suggested, i.e. Influential Albums, that could work as reference only, but not PP or PR.
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Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 24 2007 at 08:36
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There is an interesting parallel here:
First the site starts out with just progressive music just like those first prog bands that started in the late 60's early 70's. But then as time went on pressure from the record labels pushed these bands into watering down their music in order to appeal to a wider fan base to sell more records. So as it was here as time went on pressure from some forum members who wanted their favorite band on the site along with the potential to bring in more traffic led to a more watered down criteria for inclusion. I guess its just the nature of progressive music and commercialism ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 24 2007 at 08:54
I think it is the nature of today's world, unfortunately. I don't necessarily agree with some of the choices made here, but I can understand that it is an undertaking that costs time and money to its owners. However, I'd like to point out one thing to those who scream to high heaven every time a controversial addition is made: most other Prog sites are much more watered-down. ProgGnosis has a huge database that contains artists like Evanescence, whose relation with prog seems to me to be so distant as to be non-existent. Sea of Tranquillity reviews bands from Poison to the most extreme black metal. ProgressiveEars has reviews for Iron Maiden, Blue Oyster Cult and Talking Heads. All of this has been personally verified, and it would be nice if some people took that into account instead of starting a war every time a band they don't agree with is added to our DB. |
Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: January 24 2007 at 09:33
That is a good point, and that is why I come to here and not those other sites. I'm just hoping this site doesn't catch up to them. ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: January 25 2007 at 07:30
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I love proto-prog and prog-related categories...simply because I like the majority of bands included in those. And someone said the site is infected by them...what an insult! There would be no prog today without those bands. Anyway, as far as the Top100 chart goes...it just needs a small box with a tick or "x" to enable/disable option of inclusion proto/related bands... As the front page goes, I don't know... I'm aware that owner of the site wants to attract as much pople as possible, and I know that people looking for rare obscure bands will be somewhate dissapointed seeing Zep or Doors on the front page... But then again, most of us started appreciating those obscure bands by listening to the well-known ones ...Iron Maiden , Purple, Queen could be pleasant surprise to some people...and if someone wants to find Hoyry-Kone on the internet, the Google search engine will happily show progarchives.com very close to first in search results, right? |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 25 2007 at 09:59
 Great post, Clarke2001, and loads of common sense! I think far too many people are obsessed with PP/PR supposedly 'infecting' the purity of the site. This is something I can't really approve of - with very few exceptions, all the bands/artists listed in those two controversial categories have undeniable ties to prog, either because they influenced it, or were influenced of it. However, your most important statement is in the last paragraph. PA's database is organised in a very user-friendly way, which will allow anyone to find the relevant info for any act they're interested in, including high-quality reviews. To say that the inclusion of high-profile, well-known bands prevents people from learning about new ones doesn't really make that much sense. I'm afraid some people have what I call a 'Taleban' attitude to Prog, which does more harm than good. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 25 2007 at 14:58
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