Manu Katche

Iván

A couple of my favorites are missing from that list like Mike Portnoy, Jonh Bonham, Keith Moon and Alex Van Halen.

But Neil Peart is my fav.

Bozzio, Husband, Wackerman, Coluitta, Tony Williams, Andrea Marcelli, Ian Gledhill.... the list goes on.

Of the list provided? Billy Cobham

THE KING OF PERCUSSION:  MR. CARL PALMER...

As some of you know I'm a drummer, and have learned to appreciate derums before everything.

There are a few complete drummers, some are strong with the bass drums, other with the metals some are strong with hands but weak with the feet, so the complete drummer is a very rare specie, for example:

Phil Collins; Strong with snare and metals (Motown and jazz influence) but weak with the feet.

Carl Palmer is strong, fast and loud, very complete except with the metals and snare.

Few are really complte drummers and I will list some, but IMO the best one in this moment is Phil Ehart from Kansas, he's absolutely complete with feet and hands, fast and complex, but if you seen the video Device Voice Drums, you can notice he does something very rare, he almost never looks at the drum kit, he knows exactly where ech piece is and plays every drum in the exact moment, he seems as if he never sweat. I believe he's the actual number one.

Also complete drummers are

• Neil Peart: Complete drummer but a bit poser, nobody needs a 360° degrees drum kit, because he never uses most of it.
• Manu Katche (The guy does no effort, he plays with the whole body and he's totally loose)
• Tony Fernandez (From Rick Wakeman's crew) if you seen this guy you know what I'm talking about, Rick Wakeman always improvises, but Toony is always in the right place with the right beat, probably the most accurate drummer I ever seen. 
• Of course Bill Bruford, a percussionist more than just a drummer.
• Also a great drummer even far from Prog' is Fergal Lawler, he plays with Cramberries, the guy is a complete show, absolutely perfect, he deserved top be in a better band (even when I like some Cranberries).

Special mention to Zack Starky, Ringo's kid is amazing with The Who, seems he doesn't feel the weight of sitting in Keith Moon's place.

Iván

Rob The Plant wrote: Poor Nick Mason.

Do you really think he is a poor drummer - adequate surely?

Dick Heath wrote: Rob The Plant wrote: Poor Nick Mason.   Do you really think he is a poor drummer - adequate surely?

just can't stop bashing the guy. He's underrated, as far as I know, but what does Ivan say about it?

ivan_2068 wrote: Carl Palmer is strong, fast and loud, very complete except with the metals and snare.

Don't agree about the snare Ivan... (and I am a drummer also.. actually went to school for it, have a music minor.. altho I switched to purely tympani in college)

One of the things Buddy Rich even mentioned about Carl was his snare ability.  He always sets up his snare in a more jazz position, because he loves playing the rims, I always found that a bit uncomfortable.  But one of the most incredible things I've ever seen is the snare section of his drum clinics...  Actually all of those drum clinics is just incredible....

ALL of Pink Floyd are at their peak on Pompeii.

Personally, I don't think any of the others are in Cobham's league, perhaps not even Bruford.  Cobham is primarily a jazz and jazz fusion drummer, not a rock drummer.  And although many of the others (including Bruford and Collins) have some jazz chops, none of them touch Cobham.

Although it is arguably silly to debate who is "better" (technically, musically, etc.) as opposed to who one likes better, if one must debate it, consider one very simple question: who could play who else's parts?  That is, I would argue that Cobham could - technically, musically - play any of the parts played by any of the other listed drummers (including Bruford).  However, I doubt anyone on that list - possibly including Bruford - could play some of Cobham's parts.  That is really the only "legitimate" question one should consider when one is debating who is "better."  And by the way, two other drummers who are leagues ahead of the others on the list (because they are more in Cobham's league and genre) are Narada Michael Walden and Alfonse Mouzon.

As for me, I will take Marco Matteuzzi and Claudio Trotta - both from Deus ex Machina - over any of the names on the above list.  Based on my "simple question" above, I believe there is nothing the drummers on the list have played that Matteuzzi or Trotta could not play.  On the other hand, there are many things I've heard Matteuzzi and Trotta play that perhaps only Bruford, Collins and maybe Peart or Palmer could do.  If you want to check them out, the two albums I would recommend are De Republica (Matteuzzi) and Diacronia Metronomiche (Trotta).

Peace.

sigod wrote: threefates wrote: I think Nick Mason was at his peak on the Pompeii dvd... That's very true. BTW has anybody seen the director's cut DVD. Is it worth getting?

Agree with you too.

I have the Director's cut. It's very interesting, lots of backstage stuff, including a long scene where Nick Mason is explaining what kind of pie he wants. I'd say it's definitely worth getting.

slipperman wrote: ALL of Pink Floyd are at their peak on Pompeii.

Dave Gilmour improved a lot as a guitarist since Pompei.

Don't agree about the snare Ivan... (and I am a drummer also.. actually went to school for it, have a music minor.. altho I switched to purely tympani in college) One of the things Buddy Rich even mentioned about Carl was his snare ability.  He always sets up his snare in a more jazz position, because he loves playing the rims, I always found that a bit uncomfortable.  But one of the most incredible things I've ever seen is the snare section of his drum clinics...  Actually all of those drum clinics is just incredible....

I never said he was bad Threefates, I said he was almost complete but weaker with metals and snare, the problem of Carl Palmer is caused by the kind of work he did in ELP. A Power trio requires double effort from all the members, so the drummer has to be loud and Carl is great at this also has to be fast to cover blank wholes that always are left by the lack of enough musicians.

In order to be loud he must give preponderance to the bass drums and worry less about the metals and snares. Carl Palmer has the most powerful beat in the market and a perfect feet movement but in ELP his snares are weaker, somehow jazzy and too soft.

Phil Collins for example, is used to play in bands with 5 or more persons (Studio albums don’t count because he can over tape instrument by instrument) In early Genesis the had Peter who caught the attention plus Tony and Steve who filled the room with an involving atmospheric sound, on stage with later Genesis he always had Stuermer and a great backup by Chester Thompson, so he never needed to develop a strong or loud beat, his work with metals and snares is basic, but his bass drums and feet are weak. I’m sure Collins would be a complete failure in a real power trio, because he’s not prepared for that.

So Carl had to adapt his playing to the needs of ELP, and this band needed a strong and fast drumming with lots of bass and very few snares and metals, a musician is him and his circumstances, and this are Carl Palmer’s circumstances.

Surely Palmer must be good with the snares, but in ELP he doesn’t have the chance to prove it, and I’m being guided by that, because I never bought any of his clinics, and the clinics don’t represent the real quality of a drummer, because it’s a controlled environment, different is the case of a band on stage where the musician has to solve problems in fractions of seconds..

I have mentioned unsung French Canadian drummer Guy Nadon on this site before. I am a drummer myself and this remarkable self made man was my mentor. If anyone, particularily from Montreal, could comment on this local legend I would appreciate it. His words of wisdom to me were " Drumming is not about counting, we leave that up to the bankers. " 

And anyone from Montreal will tell you this is the guy that humiliated Buddy Rich when Rich invited him to play on his Slingerland kit. As legend goes Rich got into his sports car and drove off in frustration at being showed up by this kid who couldn`t even speak a word of English.

Nadon also refused a gig with the Jimmy Dorsey Band in the fifties because his English wasn`t good enough.

My hero.

ivan_2068 wrote:   Also complete drummers are Neil Peart: Complete drummer but a bit poser, nobody needs a 360° degrees drum kit, because he never uses most of it. Iván

Where's Neil supoposed to put his electronic drums? If he had two kits side by side you would still call him a poser!

ivan_2068 wrote: Manu Katche Iván

Would you have voted for him if he hadn't play with Peter Gabriel ?

richardh wrote: Well its got to be Peart then as I'm being objective at the moment

Stop it Richard.Being objective is the new "flaming" around here!

well, i voted for collins. collins indeed is slightly weak with his feet; usually jazz drummers are weak on feet. ex.: jack dejohnette.

the best with their feet are metal drummers, but that is another story! the best balanced drummer is probably neil peart.

the problem with bruford is that he is a mid frequencies drummer: he is weaker on cymbals: his best cymbals performance is on the music for piano & drums with moraz: i've seen better on cymbals.

peart.

i think even better than bruford.

ok don´t kill me but i just can´t overcome o baterista.

enjoy