Hard-Prog/Dark-Prog
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Topics not related to music
Forum Name: General Polls
Forum Description: Create polls on topics not related to music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31227
Printed Date: November 29 2024 at 15:39
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Topic: Hard-Prog/Dark-Prog
Posted By: ANDREW
Subject: Hard-Prog/Dark-Prog
Date Posted: November 18 2006 at 14:46
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Hard Prog: RUSH, DEEP PURPLE, URIAH HEEP, ATOMIC ROOSTER, T2, LUCIFER'S FRIEND etc...
Dark Prog: VAN DER GRAAF GENERATOR, BLACK WIDOW, ARCADIUM, BRAM STOKER, Dr.Z, CZAR, HIGH TIDE, MONUMENT, ZIOR, NECROMANDUS, STILL LIFE, AREKNAMES, WRITING ON THE WALL, MALOMBRA, STANDARTE, IL SEGNO DEL COMANDO, ABIOGENESI, PRESENCE, JACULA, ANTONIUS REX, ARS NOVA, WICKED MINDS, etc...
What do you think???
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Replies:
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: November 18 2006 at 16:27
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Cool idea, but I think King Crimson should be included in Dark prog
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 18 2006 at 16:32
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No, it makes no sense as a genre.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 18 2006 at 16:36
I don't know/care. I have no ideas about genres anymore. Let people who really think they know what's best for categorization and who like doing it take the helm.  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: November 18 2006 at 16:55
| Aren't there enough genres already? |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 18 2006 at 17:28
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^ there are not enough genres to properly describe the music - Symphonic Prog, Avant Prog, Art Rock and Prog Metal contain bands which are completely different from each other. But the problem is that further subdivisions would create inconsistencies too - some bands would need to be placed in multiple genres. Solution: Tagging! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: ANDREW
Date Posted: November 18 2006 at 18:21
Yes, but i think that this new subgenre is much more important than Prog-Related or Proto-Prog.
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Vompatti wrote:Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: November 18 2006 at 19:12
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The genres are most useful helping people find music they might like. Dark Prog would not do this; a VdGG fan looking in Dark Prog might find themselves surrounded by Prog Death Metal and Prog Black Metal. Perhaps bands could be placed in multiple subgenres; Atomic Rooster could be Hard Prog and Art Rock, or said Prog Black Metal band could be put in both Prog Metal and Dark Prog. -------------   |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: November 18 2006 at 19:16
Rather the other way 'round I'd say. Prog Death/Black fans would find stuff like VdGG or King Crimson, band which would disappoint them. Prog Death and Prog Black should of course be kept in Prog Metal if the Dark Prog category ever sees the light of day. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 18 2006 at 19:24
Then we must create Soft Prog/Bright Prog where we could add Moody Blues, Asia and many ore that were lighter and catchy. 
Please Hard and dark are too vague terms.
I bet Trespass is darker than most albums but no way they would leave Symphonic.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Revan
Date Posted: November 18 2006 at 19:31
so do we have to create Camera Prog, progressive acoustic, Pre-rock, proto-garde and prog plastic? A variant isn't justified by the name, you have to stablish the parameters. ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 18 2006 at 19:43
Good reply Reevan
But:
Hard: Can be Hard Rock, a hard approach (All Classic Prog bands have hard moments and tracks, like Crimson, Genesis, Kansas, VDGG, etc). Dark: Wider, again what is dark? Heaven and Hell by Vangelis is a dark album, Trespass is even darker, 666 has a darl concept, Darl may also imply unknown likle lets say Rainbow Theatre is a dark Australian band.
We have more than enough sub-genres IMO.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 19 2006 at 04:25
This is exactly what would be solved by tagging. Imagine you have the following set of tags: Hard, Dark, Art, Prog, Rock, Black Metal and you could apply any number of them to any artist. So you could "build" genres for each artist - one could be "Dark Prog Rock", another could be "Dark Black Metal" ... ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Seyo
Date Posted: November 19 2006 at 05:32
| The problem is: the more sub-genres we try to intoduce under prog rock, the more debate would arise as to where to put this and that band... I am very sceptical about this. Even now we have too many sub-genres! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 19 2006 at 05:43
Ok, I give up ... the idea of fixed genres has been cemented in peoples' brains.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: November 19 2006 at 05:56
I'll just pop in again and say that I support Mike's tagging ideas. 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 19 2006 at 06:45
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^Thanks! I'm not saying that it's a perfect solution though ... play around with the new chart builder on my website (front page -> sidebar) and you'll see that assigning tags on a fine grained level can lead to somewhat peculiar results. For the archives I would recommend a less complex solution ... how about this: - Reduce the number of genres to something like that: - Prog Rock - Jazz-Fusion - Prog Metal - Avant-Garde And then add a number of tags. - Symphonic - Artistic ("Art ...") - Spacey ("Space ...") - Psychedelic - Post ("Post ...") - Folk ("Folk ...") - Italian - Prog-Related - Non-Prog (for the non-prog albums in the discographies of Prog/Prog-Related artists) - Zeuhl - RIO - Canterbury and then some new tags to further describe the music: - Melodic - Atonal - Experimental - Hard - Dark - Melancholic - Uplifting - Cheesy/Fantasy - Neo-classical Each album is assigned to one genre and to any number of these tags (each tag is implemented as a checkbox in the database). I doubt that this will be implemented any time soon - but it's what I would do.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: November 19 2006 at 21:56
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 19 2006 at 22:44
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The funny thing is that despite is that despite Prog Archives has no new genres being added, no extra tags, no further experiments, we have grown enough to be the N° 1 Prog Resource in the net.
Just type Progressive Rock in Google or Yahoo and guess which site appears in the top?
Most respectable Prog sites have started long before Prog Archives but still we have managed to be more popular and visited than all of them
This means somebody must be doing things right...Don't you believe so?
It's obvious people likes simpler structures, 18 sub-genres (Against sites that have over 80), no moods atmospheres, just a sub-genre per band and let the reviews speak for us.
Why make dramatic changes if we are doing so well?
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Bastille Dude
Date Posted: November 20 2006 at 00:46
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I prefer the status quo.
------------- DEATH TO FALSE PROG! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 20 2006 at 03:28
Ok, the most popular website is always the best ... Pardon me, but the archives seem more and more like this guy to me:   ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: November 20 2006 at 03:38
| I agree with Mike again. |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: November 20 2006 at 08:04
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I agree with some forum members that we don't need descriptive flags such are "dark", "melodic", "atmospheric" or whatever, but what about gothic/industrial genre? I'm not big fan of that genre, but some bands are melting this genre with prog. For example Einsturzende Neubauten and Nurse With Wound (both not included on PA) are very prog but they don't fit into RIO or psychedelic subgenre...
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Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: November 20 2006 at 08:16
| It would hardly make any sense as genre. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 20 2006 at 08:44
Well, for me it's the best site and will continue being tha best as long as some of us work hard to try to make it the best instead of complaining against everything and finding defects where there are not.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: November 20 2006 at 08:48
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 20 2006 at 09:23
I have nothing but the deepest respect for the hard working members of Progarchives.com ... it is indeed the #1 prog resource on the internet - thanks to the members and collabs. But that doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything that happens here. And the collabs don't need to take my complaints personally ... whenever I'm talking about "the archives", I'm talking about the *owners* ... they're making the big decisions. Some of them are offensive to me - two obvious examples would be the advertising and the illegitimate audio samples. But neither of these problems are related to the collabs in any way. BTW: I greatly reduced my complaining in the last few months ... I am only joining discussions about tagging because I'm interested in the subject, I'm not aggressively starting such debates anymore. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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