Yes’ Topographic Oceans - The debate
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Topic: Yes’ Topographic Oceans - The debate
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Yes’ Topographic Oceans - The debate
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 11:15
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Yes' Tales from Topographic Oceans must be one of the most debated Lps in prog history. Is it a meisterwerk? Is it an exercise in padding? Is the Ancient really that Bad? (Yes!) Did it ultimately force their best talent (wakeman) out? Often seen as the pinnacle of Prog Excess by the detractors - I was just wondering what other people's thoughts were on this OPUS? To me Tales certainly isn't Yes' best LP? (Relayer is!)but it isn't there worst either. (Talk is). I think it operates as a sort of yes' White Album - could it live without Ancient and Remebering musically?? - but of course part of its pleasure was the overlying four-part concept of the Shastric scriptures, its very epic- quality. And it does have that sense of Homeric epic-ness about it - it's like The Lamb by Genesis, like settling in for a long journey at the start of Side One. But ultimately I think its padded out by some lazy recycling of leit-motifs, and unispired playing, unlikely The White Album which is very varied and full of in your face incongruity. Wakeman in particular is absent a lot of the time, just providing synth washes a lot of the time - and even his solos are uninspired compared to his best - even on the standout tracks 1 and 4. I also think production wise it lacks the vibrancy of Close to the Edge and Relayer (a beautiful, brittle coldness). Stories of them getting cardboard cut out animals shows there ego's were starting to show a bit. And yet - something inside of me wants to champion Tales despite all its flaws. It does have some peaks - few though they are - Squire's work on Ritual (as good as his work on Relayer)Steve's guitar shines thru on Side one - the vocal intro - one of the most loved Yes pieces of music in their canon. I just don't think it would have worked with just Side One and Four as a single LP - and stands as a "great failure" rather than a "muted success". Last time I saw Yes at Liverpool I was spellbound - I'd seen them on the Union tour, ABWH, and a few times since - but this last time was special - the set list was perfection - THREE EPICS!!! Ritual, Gates and Close to the Edge - and the symphony orchestra backing - OK Wakeman wasn't on this line-up but it was a minor quibble when presented with Gates!!! Anyone got any views on this? |
Replies:
Posted By: Swinton MCR
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 12:15
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I think this has been done before....BUT most Yes fans tend to think it's a fabulous piece of music - which of course it is A VERITABLE PROG MASTERPIECE !!! ------------- Play me my song, here it comes again |
Posted By: Wrath_of_Ninian
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 13:22
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I prefer their other works - Topographic Oceans just doesn't have that spark, and frankly I find most of it pretty boring compared to CTTE or Relayer, even the Yes Album. I still dont understand why Wakeman left when all he did was go on to produce prog fodder of a similar ilk. Perhaps his ego needed a boost. I'm sure he said he'd achieved everything he could with Yes and wanted to move on, but that was clearly rubbish, as he returned two years later for what in my opinion was their best work 'Going For The One' and then their worst 'Tormato', which were two new extremes of brilliance and mediocrity Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are those of the author (me), and they are not intended, in any way, to denigrate the Yes fan club or lovers of the Tormato album. I salute you all
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 13:24
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it is rubish. come on BORRING to the max. not kool haha |
Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 13:33
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On the plus side, it does contain some superb passages of Yesmusic (mainly on Disc 1) On the minus side, it is frequently rambling and incoherent. On the balance, any album which contains Ritual(Nous Sommes Du Soleil) is, quite frankly, bit of a turkey. ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 13:34
Unfortunately I have some sympathy with this half-wit's "position". Much as I love Yes, this album just never did it forme.Over-overblown (sic) everything. I bought it on release on LP and only listened to it occasionally after the first couple of days. Actually bought the CD-why, I dont know-and despite giving it a few spins I can get nothing out of it. What am I missing? ------------- 
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Shocktaktix wrote:
Apart from a brain?
Posted By: Wrath_of_Ninian
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 13:40
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Not very much, there's nothing there to get. Stick to the classics. They're not rubish or borring.... |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 13:51
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One of the main flaws of this album is Wakeman. He clearly isn't really involved. He plays uninspired. Where the synth-keyboard could have made the album more cohesive, Wakeman failed the band. Him leaving the group gave Yes a chance to further develop and create Relayer. I'm a huge fan of Wakeman but on Tales he totaly messed up.
------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 13:52
A brain, most likely... its probably just a little too cerebral for you!! Actually I love Tales.. always have. But its a mood piece. Its almost like New Age.. To me I could care less about the words.. well except for the third side... "Do the leaves of green stay greener thru the autumn....", but its the general mood you get when you listen to it. Its soothing, its meditative and its freeing.. and I think thats just what Jon Anderson was trying to convey... And I'd much rather meditate to that than some chant in sanscript.. ------------- THIS IS ELP 
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 14:26
That's one of the reasons I like TFTO...Wakeman doesn't ruin the mix for once. As much as I respect his talents, a good number of my favorite Yes songs have synth parts that sound unnecessary or jarringly prominent to me. Unfortunately, Squire is also buried throughout TFTO- I think he could have provided more of the structure that so many people find lacking. Not me, though...if anything, I think it should be more formless, impenetrable, and meandering! I guess you could almost call it the best Anderson or Howe solo album, except that there isn't much competition there. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi"> 
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Posted By: Swinton MCR
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 14:43
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Tales from Topographic Oceans - Yes, It's title tells you that it will be self-indulgent to the nth degree - Oh yes...Let us pray at the alter of Musicians who play music that the proletariat HATE !!! The logo is the finest for any album - The colours - Do you know how long it took to enbroider on my denim-jacket - about a month...... I may be wrong - but if you sip from the chalice of High-progressiveness - you must show no disgrace at the liking of this august and profound musical masterpiece.... yea...Though You may stand in the shadow of mariah carey, I shall fear no evil coz Those wacky Yes men gave us the light...It was their cross and our salvation.
------------- Play me my song, here it comes again |
Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 15:17
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i think it as a masterpiece. IMO the only reason people have problems with it is cos it is soooo demanding, challenging and daring, too experimental and long and building up the soundscapes. its one of those albums you have to listen to a few times to get used to it. also it helps if you play it all as one piece instead of playing the tracks individually, cos that way it jus dont sound as good. if you are gonna listen to TFTO then set yourself about an hour and a half of free time and play it as one whole piece. once i did this i saw how amazing it was, and although it is demanding, once you meet its demands, it is so worthwile and rewarding. patience is the key with this album. i know most cant be bothered to listen to a hour and half odd piece of music which can get boring but those who do will be rewarded with a masterpiece ------------- The Worthless Recluse 
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Posted By: Vegetableman
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 16:11
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Speaking of TFTO... has anyone noticed that a good number of the big prog bands released a controversial double album after the album widely recognized (I'm saying that very loosely) as their best? ELP - Brain Salad Surgery -> Works Vol. I Floyd - Animals -> The Wall Genesis - Selling England by the Pound -> The Lamb Yes - Close to the Edge -> Tales ------------- "Mister Fripp, your music is quite different than everything else out there. In one word, how would you describe it?" "Progressive.... yeah, that's it..." |
Posted By: Shatterwolf
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 16:47
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This is probably the most heated debate that always brought up on this forum. Tales is a beautiful album, the crowned king of my Yes albums. The Revealing Science of God was absolutely brilliant, and I only listen to it when I am alone in the dark, because I usually cry, the song is so powerful. I even have the cover as the backround for my desktop. Though I agree it's not as vibrant as CTTE, I thought it was great that Yes was able to expand their horizon, and produce something so good and original. (In other words, kudos to Squire and Anderson) So why did Wakeman leave? I'm pretty sure that him and Howe didn't offer any insight into Tales. They didn't help create it, which really says alot about the minds of Chris and Jon. They probably felt left out, and they shouldn't have; prog rock should be and always has been a combined effort of all it's members. But thank God he came back. It was pretty sad, if this Yes album was getting the praise as it deserved, Yes would be as widely recognized as Pink Floyd with the adults, and the kids too. (EVERYONE knows atleast on 'Floyd song. Yes? No.) I don't see how the critics were so merciless... ------------- 
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Posted By: Swinton MCR
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 16:50
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Howe / Anderson were the writing partners for TFTO - They jammed by candlelight according to Jon Anderson.... ------------- Play me my song, here it comes again |
Posted By: Shatterwolf
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 16:57
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Yea, I thought I was missing something. My bad, but you get my piont.... -------------
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Posted By: DallasBryan
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 19:46
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Topographic Oceans was the biggest reach the
band ever went for, and Rick Wakeman left afterwards only to have the band produce the best album they ever recorded with Patrick Moraz at the keyboards. The band needed soundscapes and atmospheres and Ricky got lost. Tony Banks for instance was much more prolific. Rick is more of a solo virtuoso. Patrick did it right, and boy did he! Thats why I feel Ricky cant hang with the big boys! Rick Wakeman is overrated and Topographic Oceans was his minus opus! By the way Larry Fast used to build synthesizers for Wakeman and showed him how to use them. Like him but he aint great! Great album cover and title that keeps making you want to figure it out, but it aint happening, face it! |
Posted By: Matt0001
Date Posted: January 07 2005 at 20:22
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Am I the only person in the entire world that loves The Ancient? The
tripped-out, manic intro may be favorite passage of music by Yes. It is
just so entirely alien and strange. I have no idea where it came from.
I love it. Back as a teenager in the height of my Yes loving
days Tales was one of my least favorite and least listened to Yes
albums. Fifteen years later it joins Close to the Edge and Relayer as
the few Yes albums I keep easilly accesible and listen to regularly. It
seems that the less Yes-obsessed I became, the more I appreciated
Tales. It is a fascinating thing to listen to. It is not a masterpiece.
It has numerous flaws--as mentioned here...padded, repetitive, weak
Wakeman, and so on. But it keeps drawing me back. There's just
something intriguing and mysterious about it. In many ways I still feel
like I haven't entirely figured it out. And The Ancient is killer. |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: January 08 2005 at 00:38
Good point (I think?). One of the reasons might be, they gained confidence to take their ideas one step (or even more steps) further. BTW. I really love the album, but like Relayer it took me several spins before I got it. And the only reason it isn't a masterpiece (IMO) is because of the keyboards. The vocals, guitar and bass parts are amazing, and the drums are better than OK. ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: sky_mellows
Date Posted: January 08 2005 at 00:53
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Tales is a great work of art, but as with much Yes material, it may be
VERY hard for a new (non fan) to listen to and appreciate. I think a lot of this has to do with the instrumentation and mix. For example, almost every Yes fan loves Relayer, but I don't think new listeners could deal with Gates of Delirium's most intense sections. Just to put my comments in the appropriate context, I think one transitional section in Gates of is perhaps the greatest moment in music ever! I've often thought re-arranging Tales and Relayer and produce a more mellow mix of the instrumentation. But then of course .. it just wouldn't be the same. As with all Yes music, you really have to be taken there .. you have to let yourself go to that place of Topographic Oceans ... and from that place looking back you can 'see it'! Sky |
Posted By: sky_mellows
Date Posted: January 08 2005 at 00:58
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ps - Agree with DallasBryan about Wakeman .. he was pretty good, and
kinda cool in his time, but the dude simply has a bit too much Mozart
and Bach programmed into his chops. Moraz was by far the most interesting player but I guess he was just too arrogant for the band to deal with .. .. also .. I could do without the whole Trevor Rabin era .. Steve Howe blows him away so bad it's pathetic |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: January 08 2005 at 01:15
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Trevor Rabin is a fine guitarplayer. He was just to dominantly present on the albums he produced with Yes. and his Style of playing didn't match the sound we are used to and expect from Yes. 90125 is a very fine album, which brought Yes back to life. (took 6 years before it all was good again. but still.) BTW. Welcome Sky_mellows. Always good to have fresh blood for the grinders. ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: sky_mellows
Date Posted: January 08 2005 at 01:36
Nothin' wrong with his guitar playing .. it's more on the creativity side that he's rather a boring in comparison to Howe's writing. Agree about 90125 but it's kind of in the Drama category .. it feels like another band .. not Yes... as do the other Rabin era Yes albums. I don't think Rabin is a prog rocker ... I think that point is pretty solid .. he's more of a rock guitarist/writer with a touch of added pop. ps -- thanks for the bloody warm welcome  |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: January 08 2005 at 09:46
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To be fair to Rabin, he never intended to join Yes. He joined Squire and White for what was to become their Cinema project. Tony Kaye and Jon Anderson were then invited back by Squire(White and Kaye had never worked together before), and "90125" was born. I enjoy the Rabin era Yes material, but do not regard it as beign by the same band as the one which made "Close to the edge", "Relayer" etc. A big welcome Sky Mellows (interesting monicker
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), how about revealing your "location" country in your profile?Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: January 08 2005 at 09:48
And he never wanted an Electric Haggis 
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: January 08 2005 at 09:59
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Here's something to amuse you Velv: http://haggishunt.scotsman.com/ - http://haggishunt.scotsman.com/
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: January 08 2005 at 09:59
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Several things just switch me off about "Tales". First is the overall texture, which rarely changes in any substantial way - - There is little sense of movement in the harmonic texture, which remains around "soft" chords too long for my comfort. - The instrumental texture seems to vary from really good, when the bass and drums get into a groove, to horrible, when some of the naff keyboard sounds shine through. This has nothing to do with indulgence, just bad choice of sounds, IMO. - The vocals are generally quite nasty - I don't like Anderson's "precious" style of singing, and repeated chords on a single note are not virtuosic, they are wearying. The overall vocal harmonic style has not really progressed from Yes' early albums, on which they sounded strikingly like Crosby, Stills and Nash. - There are many sections of repeated motifs, which seem to do little to increase dramatic tension in the piece, and more to make me want to reach for the off switch. When there is so much repetition, I do not understand why people seem to think this music is complex! Most of it seems to be in a standard 4/4 time, and the riffs do not imply further harmony, implying that they are mostly based around single chords. This strikes me as a particularly simple style of writing, even if they do back several riffs together - each one represents a single chord with added jazz harmonics, which is not a particularly challenging method of composition. The "complexities" seem to be ones of perception - all the little technical runs and so forth, which all seem to be an attempt to decorate a very simple and long structure. A classic example of "Emporer's new clothes", it would seem. |
Posted By: DallasBryan
Date Posted: January 08 2005 at 10:01
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90125 vote YES
forget the band member comparisions, Trevor Horn is the genius behind 90125, No need to compare old this with new that. Take it for what it is one of the last great accessible progressive rock albums to come out of england! If it werent for Trevor Horn this whole project wouldnt have worked and you wouldnt even have to be debating this. Who gives a flip about how fast this guy plays and how many drum beats per second, forgetting the whole picture, it either is or aint great and I vote a yes for my ears. Jon Anderson produced what I think are his best and most coherant vocals of his career, this is the one that makes all the others OK with me. Wish all their albums had vocals like that, amazing it happened at the end of the career as opposed to the beginning, usually it is the opposite, I find this interesting. Trevor Horn was also genius in producing "Close to the Edit" on "whose afraid of the Art of Noise". Brilliant!!! |
Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: January 08 2005 at 10:53
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everyone is mass debating... hehe that say it out loud and it will sounds like something a lot dodgier ------------- The Worthless Recluse
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: January 08 2005 at 10:56
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Art of Noise is fun. Rabin-era Yes is not. IMAO. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: January 08 2005 at 11:01
I agree with 99% of what Cert says, however Never heard of "Emporer's new clothes" but have heard of "The Emperor's New Clothes" Nick-picky Reed. Well, I'm listening to Man U v Exeter on the radio and Utd are struggling! Somebody has to suffer with me!
-------------
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Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: January 08 2005 at 12:36
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By an odd coincidence, that's also what Yes were doing over much of TTO ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: January 08 2005 at 13:56
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That'll be those walking bass lines then...
My typos are really bad today... |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: January 08 2005 at 13:58
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Total Bass retain Mine even worse ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
