Odd Time Signatures
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Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Music and Musicians Exchange
Forum Description: Talk with and get feedback from other musicians on the site
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27339
Printed Date: November 23 2024 at 06:26
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Topic: Odd Time Signatures
Posted By: Leningrad
Subject: Odd Time Signatures
Date Posted: August 15 2006 at 16:37
| One of the reasons I listen to prog is for the crazy time signatures. For some reason, the more changes, the better. I like to be challenged by my prog. A year ago, I actually sat down after listening to Foxtrot and tried to decipher Apocalypse in 9/8 on paper. Anyone else feel the same? Probably not, but it's worth a check... |
Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: August 15 2006 at 17:15
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The apocalype breaks donw to an actual division of 4 + 2 + 3 /8, but since the 4, 2, 3 groupings repeat consistently throughout the section the time signature is given as 9/8.
Yeah, odd meters are fun. |
Posted By: Leningrad
Date Posted: August 15 2006 at 17:18
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Really? Well, what I found was something like this...
bum
bum bum
bum bum bum bum bum bum
repeated over and over.
But your way's cooler.
 |
Posted By: Rotten
Date Posted: August 15 2006 at 17:18
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I remember listening to Rush when I was real young, before I knew about time signatures and just figured that everything was in 4, but that they either added or subtracted a beat here and there. Since then, I've learned to look for the patterns and it is a lot of fun.
I've taught my kids how much fun they are because you can dance to them when you figure them out. For intance, in 5 you can dance to it like it is in 4 and then you get a pose at the end; they like that one.
To me, the key is when an odd time signature sounds natural, not like it is in the time signature for the sake of complexity. I thought Rush was really good at that. I think it is because their drum could rock out. So, yeah, I love'em.
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Posted By: Jeremy Bender
Date Posted: August 15 2006 at 17:22
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Oh yeah I like odd meters (being a drummer, I very much like to play them).
Today I listened to UK's 'in the dead of night, by the light of day', and that's a very cool song with all the time changes. BB is a master of odd meters.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: August 15 2006 at 17:36
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Chameleon,
My mistake. You were right it should be 3+2+4 / 8. I apologize for the confusion. If you look at how you set it up you can see it. Two bass drum and one snare=3. One bass drum and one snare= 2. Three bass drum and one snare=4. 3+2+4/8 with each beat being an eigth note. If you're determined enought you can count all the way throughit, but Phil gets all off the beats as the thing progresses and makes it harder than you think to count. I gotta believe that Tony and Mike probably wanted to hurt him at times for stuff like that. |
Posted By: EssentialFaris
Date Posted: August 27 2006 at 02:18
Yeah, I've simply just begun getting into odd meters, but tomorrow...AKA MONDAY MORNING, Ï'll be going to my first day of junior year in highschool, I'm taking a college music thery class, and the only 3 kids who it listen to prog as much as me are in it! All i know is, This awesome kid was in a hardcore punk band, and when he finished that class, started a math rock band, and they were amazing...recently split up  .
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Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: August 27 2006 at 03:06
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lol if you want crazy time signatures and ryhthm patterns to put your head in a spin listen to Meshuggah- I or Future Breed Machine is another good choice basically they make Genesis look like fools when it comes to time signatures, actually they pretty much make everyone look like fools in that regard. oh and a disclaimer: You probably wont like them because you will be closed - minded since they have the world "metal" as a genre title. As I normally say to such people, anyone who think metal is simplistic needs only to listen to Meshuggah intently to understand metal is not always that way, and you are stereotyping an entire genre of interesting music, making yourself look like an idiot. pick up Chaosphere, I, or Future Breed Machine for some crazy use of time signatures. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: unforgivable74
Date Posted: August 27 2006 at 09:45
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As a drummer (of limited skills) it took me years to work out what was going on in Suppers Ready - Apocolypse in 9/8. However, there is a few bars in the midlle of 'Fading Lights' from 'We Can't Dance' where the timing goes berserk and I just can't work out what's going on. Anybody know the bit I mean?
------------- Laughs as I clean my teeth, laughs as I rub at my eyes. |
Posted By: sean
Date Posted: August 27 2006 at 11:09
| how about the dillinger escape plan for some wacky time signatures? |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: August 27 2006 at 11:46
Or they make themselves look like fools because they spent so long working on time signatures that they forgot to make it interesting? I'll leave that up to you 
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OpethGuitarist wrote:Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: August 27 2006 at 11:49
The Middle Section Of "Keep it Greasey" By Frank Zappa is mind blowing 
It's a bar of 4/4 followed by a bar of 3/16.
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Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: August 27 2006 at 11:59
O rrry? I find them very interesting, but of course, its not for everyone. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: August 27 2006 at 14:31
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I love odd time sigs and the sort. I always look for them in music.
Meshuggah is wild, but I think they are a bit too relentless and often uninteresting. I do enjoy them periodically. Other bands who implicate them well are Dream Theater and Pain of Salvation, who have surprisingly not been yet mentioned. There's plenty of great examples though.
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: August 27 2006 at 16:34
For sure, it's a matter of taste, but I find Thorenda(a?)l's Special Defects considerably more to mine 
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Posted By: EssentialFaris
Date Posted: August 27 2006 at 19:51
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earlier caravan makes great use of odd times, most of the time you can't even tell, i like that. |
Posted By: Deadwing12
Date Posted: August 27 2006 at 21:42
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The weirder the time sig, the more prog
I'm kidding of course, but I really love a good time signature change every once in a while. It's more difficult to pull off successfully than a key signature change, and it shows that the musicians have a the ablilty to handle music outside the scope of 4 or 3 (you'd be surprised at how many 'musicians' cannot for the life of them think in odd times) Edit: You want strange time sigs, something incomprehensible? Try anything by The Mahavishnu Orchestra. Melodies in x/16 and the like. On another forum we talked about which song contained the most time signature changes, and we decided that 'Dance of Eternity' by Dream Theater is the reigning champ, although I forget the exact figures. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Deadwing008/?chartstyle=Basquiat"> 
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Posted By: Hierophant
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 12:52
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Most of what I heard from Meshuggah is in 4/4 with way over the top syncopation One thing I can't stand is bands using time signatures with little or no melodic development and just tastelessly pounding out the time signature almost as if to say "hey look we're playing in 7/8!", anyone can add or take away an eighth note or two, the real skill comes in actually feeling the time signature and playing comfortably. The musical phrasings should dictate what type of rhythms should be used, not the other way around - it's no wonder that many bands wind up sounding like droning machines rather than actually conveying musical ideas. I'm not refering to any band in particular here, but it seems to be like some sort of trend - to grind out those weird time signatures without the music to back it up. ------------- 
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Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 14:20
Indeed. I won't type out the whole thing, but it uses these times: 4/4, 7/8, 3/4, 6/8, 13/16, 15/16, 17/16, 14/16, 5/4, 2/4, 5/8, 11/4, 7/16, 6/16, 5/16, 10/16, 9/8, 15/8, and a couple others that I thought were kind of extranneous. These of course are used sporadiccaly throughout the piece. I know some of those can be simplified and all that, but it's how they are implimented that make the difference.
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Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 14:24
Yea. Meshuggah likes to do wild polyrhythms over 4/4. Like 5 mesures of 23/8 and 1 measure of 13/8 over 16 measures of 4/4.
I also agree with your second statement, but I don't notice that poor of a use of odd times often...zt least in the stuff I listen to.
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Posted By: CandyAppleRed
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 15:17
The only sheet music I ever saw for Apocalypse in 9/8 said 9/4 
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Posted By: Asyte2c00
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 15:20
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Check this out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_works_in_irregular_time_signatures - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_works_in_irregular_time_signatures
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Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 16:00
If you are referring to Meshuggah with that statement, I'd like to ask since when has Meshuggah been about melody. Meshuggah is a band not concerned with melody. The lack of melody is the cornersone for their intriguing sound. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: memowakeman
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 16:35
Pretty nice list...  ------------- Follow me on twitter @memowakeman |
Posted By: Fusionman
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 18:13
Just so you know Meshuggah doesn't really play in a lot of different time signatures in some sense. They have rotating time signatures..often the drum is in 4/4 the entire time. But other band members are in different time signatures that all eventually meet up on 1...often like 64 or so. They don't have a lot of odd or rapidly changing ones. Hierophant is pretty much right, I just noticed his post. I agree that time signatures for the sake of time signatures is ridiculous. Meshuggah is about the mood and the tension/release which is driven mostly by melody and not the rythem even though the rythem is the most prominent aspect of the music. ------------- 
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Posted By: Hierophant
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 19:20
-------------
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Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: August 28 2006 at 21:45
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My mistake, just hard to read through all the text when you mention a band and then make a general statement. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: August 29 2006 at 15:42
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You guys are all too simple. check out some of John McLaughlin`s stuff in 11/8 in wierd keys.
------------- |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: August 29 2006 at 18:21
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^playing in a weird key is just a matter of writing a song in C, then moving your hand up the fretboard. EG. Write in C, move up a whole step, voila! you wrote a song in D! -------------   |
Posted By: Arrrghus
Date Posted: August 29 2006 at 18:22
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Wild time signatures are cool... sometimes fun to play, but it can also be f**king hard to play. ------------- 
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Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: August 29 2006 at 22:50
The drums play in 2 separate time sigs Hands are typically in 4/4 while feet are in a myriad of time sigs For example, I think one of the more popular songs, New Millenium Cyanide Christ starts in 23/16 Then it moves to 13/16 before going to 4/4. Of course I could be completely wrong about the time sigs for that song, but I do know that Haake usually is playing two separate things for most of their songs on drums. He's also perhaps my favorite drummer so that doesn't hurt. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: petrock
Date Posted: August 30 2006 at 15:57
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One of the more interesting time signatures I`ve heard lately is Sieges Even. Sometimes it seems they use Pascal or Fibonacci series, rather than arithmetic bar counts, changing rythm form one bar to the next (hmmm... sounds like my college days ?)
Coheed & Cambria have a similar approach on their 3 records.
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Posted By: kingofbizzare
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 17:22
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Most of the music I compose has lots of time signature changes (I usually use 3 bars or less of a time signature at one time). One technique I use a lot is playing the melody as one bar of 4/4, then keep repeating it on different scale degrees, except each measure it drops an eighth note (i.e. 7/8, 6/8, 5/8, 4/8, 3/8, 2/8, 1/8), then going back to 4/4. I have an example of this, and I'll upload it when I get home. The downside of doing all of this is I can't play piano, and my brother refuses to play it because it's too difficult for me. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingofbizzare/?chartstyle=asimpleblue5"> 
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Posted By: penguindf12
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 23:19
| I've gotten to where I do 5/4 and 7/8 as naturally as 4/4 (as in I'll just be siting there tapping my feet mindlessly, and then in retrospect realize it was in 7), but I like to think I've grown out of using odd time sigs just for their own sake. I mean, really. It's really quite arbitrary at some points, but others, it can be entirely necessary and cool. But especially when someone forces a song into a predetermined meter, it just sounds...forced. Like Apocalypse in 9/8. Boo. It's just such a good setup, and then...bum bum BUM bum BOM bum bum bum BUM!!!! I mean, come on. It's a bit sad really; it's like the later works of the Residents. Idea first, music second. Doesn't stand up (I feel the same way about 'neo-prog'). That said, I love odd time signatures when used appropriately. For me, 7/8's crowning moment is Soft Machine's b-side suite on "Volume Two" ("Pig", "Orange Skin Food", "A Door Opens and Closes", "10:30 Returns to the Bedroom"), and of course "As Long as He Lies Perfectly Still". In fact, now that I think about it, most of that album is in 7! Let's see, uh..., "A Pataphysical Introduction" (Pts. I and II), "Hibou, Anenome, and Bear", the first bit of "Thank You Pierrot Lumiere"...all in 7/8! Then there's "Out of Tunes" in 5, but that's beside the point... anyway, what was I talking about again? Oh well. |
Posted By: Cygnus X-2
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 23:21
I've gotten to that point as well. ------------- 
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Posted By: Fusionman
Date Posted: September 07 2006 at 23:54
Grow up -------------
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Posted By: kingofbizzare
Date Posted: September 08 2006 at 00:24
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http://www.myspace.com/somestairs - http://www.myspace.com/somestairs
It's the third song on there. The time sigs are 4/4, 7/8, 4/4, 7/8, 7/8, 5/4, 1/2, 1/2, 1/2, 25/16, 7/8, 4/4, 7/8, 6/8, 5/8, 4/8, 3/8, 2/8, 2/8, 1/8, 4/4. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingofbizzare/?chartstyle=asimpleblue5">
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Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 03 2006 at 20:14
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The weirdest time signature I've ever heard isn't even in prog. It's on Don Ellis's big band record, Live at Monterey. It's in 19/4, and the title of the tune says how to divide each measure: 33 222 1 222. There's like 3 bassists bowing the main bassline on their acoustic basses, and two drummers. And the horns actually solo in this time signature. And it's live. Wow.
Search "Don Ellis" on Amazon, click on "Live at Monterey," play the sample of this tune, and then try to count it out. It's not easy.
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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: October 04 2006 at 10:54
| When used in moderate amounts, odd time signatures are great fun to listen to, especially if you're a musician like me. But it's easy to over-do it, which I think Meshuggah have. They're insanely skilled, but I don't find their music enjoyable. |
Posted By: Badabec
Date Posted: October 09 2006 at 09:19
I love the use of extreme odd time signatures in my songs. Our band has
lots of changing time signatures in each song, some are like 19/16 and
so on but it is a pleasure to play such stuff and it sounds very good
in my opinion... 
------------- Mesmo a tristeza da gente era mais bela E além disso se via da janela Um cantinho de céu e o Redentor - Antônio Carlos Jobim, Toquinho & Vinícius de Moraes - Carta ao Tom 74 |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 09 2006 at 09:29
Listen to Dream Theater - Metropolis Pt. 1.  Doesn't matter which song has the most complex time signature though ... I'd rather ask: "Which has the most complex time signature that actually makes sense in the context of the song?" BTW: That Don Ellis song is pretty nice! It definitely works, and compared to the DT song it's more a real time signature (while the DT song's middle part is rather a complex sequence of odd "standard" sigs). It's available on Napster too! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: November 22 2006 at 11:34
Actually, no. They are not all in 7/8, "10:30 Returns to the Bedroom" is in 9/8. And it's obvious that Wyatt can't sing in those time measures, just listen carefully his voice after "Concise British Alphabet", it's hilarious! But it's also charming. Oh, I love that band!  I would also like to point out "Thick as a brick", that hard-rocking part "see there! a son is born" is in 5/4, and literally half an hour later, when the bend is repeating the sequence, the same part is in 12/8. Nothing special, but I like those kind of details... Personally, I never had any problems with 7/8, 9/8 or 5/4. I don't count, I just feel. But I guess I'm lucky because I am from Balkans where a dumbest drunken footbal hooligan could sing and clap his hands in 7/8 ------------- |
Posted By: spiritual_pants
Date Posted: November 30 2006 at 17:20
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Does someone here, would like to help me deciphering the time signature(s) in the song Day of the Baphomets by the Mars Volta, please ?
It would be nice, and it will help to figure out on other songs  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Danelidou/?chartstyle=basic10"> 
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: December 01 2006 at 12:35
I've just bought Don Ellis Orchestra Live In Montreux and Ellis's notes found in the liner notes go into quite some detail about complex time signatures. However, wrt to shifting complex time signatures within tunes and associated improv, check out Dave Brubeck Quartet at Carnegie Hall. The liner notes record drummer Joe Morello's post concert discussions about where the quartet went timewise:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dLy1WvB9BSc - http://youtube.com/watch?v=dLy1WvB9BSc ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: December 08 2006 at 12:25
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I'm sure it was Bill Bruford who described King Crimson as "the only band with whom I get to play 17/15 time, and still get to stay in a decent hotel" ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Zodiak
Date Posted: December 10 2006 at 11:24
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Hey, guys, could you help? I know all the theory behind time signatures and seem to understand everything, but when it comes to actually working out the meter of a given song, I'm confused (well, of course I know 4/4 and 3/4 but not much beyond that). Could anyone explain in layman's terms how can I figure out the meter of a particular song? What do I listen to? Drums? Sorry, if this sounds stupid... ------------- Please suggest a good sig! |
Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: December 10 2006 at 11:28
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Meshuggah's New Millenium Cyanide Christ is pretty cool: "Haake beats a rather slow 4/4 rhythm with his hands, while the bass drums and guitars play a repetitive 23/16 rhythm pattern on top of it. As the subdivided pattern is repeated, the pattern's accents shift to different beats on each repetition. After repeating the 23/16 pattern five times, a shorter 13/16 pattern is played once. These patterns sum up to 128 16th notes, which equals exactly 8 measures in 4/4 meter" |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: December 10 2006 at 12:50
I'm not sure I can help since for me I just count it out and I eventually figure out what it is, so I don't really have any "clues." All I can say is to first find the beat of the song and then find out where beat "one" is, then just count the beats in each measure. |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: December 10 2006 at 12:55
That would be nice, but 17/15 doesn't exist. |
Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: December 13 2006 at 17:38
I love Jethro Tull for that... they always make you forget they are using odd time signatures or time shifts... Heavy Horses' chorus has amazing use time shifts, starting from 4/4 and then adding 3+4/4 and then 4+2/4 (the +2 is at the song's climax).... but it doesn't seem to matter... the time signatures are meant to be there... unlike many Gentle Giant songs (e.g. knots... or almost every song in The Power and The Glory) where every time shift is sudden and show-offy ("hey look, we are using time shifts!!").. That's why I don't devote myself on collecting their entire discography. ------------- Jesus Gabriel |