Should there be a new Category?
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Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25861
Printed Date: December 23 2024 at 07:55 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Should there be a new Category?
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Subject: Should there be a new Category?
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 21:13
Replies:
Posted By: WaywardSon
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 21:19
Great Idea!
Hopefully those early Rainbow albums would get some recognition. Some Bowie, BOC etc
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Posted By: Dream Theater
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 21:21
I like the idea..
------------- [IMG]http://www.travelwithachallenge.com/Images/Travel_Article_Library/Sacred-Travel/Machu-Picchu-350.jpg"> [IMG]http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/panchopc1/machupicchu-1.jpg">
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Posted By: Mad Bass Player
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 21:25
That would actually be pretty cool. Mabey some of Iron Maiden's albums could be on here.
------------- "Mister Fripp, your music is quite different than everything
else out there. In one word, how would you describe it?"
"Progressive.... yeah, that's it..."
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Posted By: pepo
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 21:27
And what would be the name for such category, partially prog, temporarily prog, converted to prog, pop-prog or perhaps each problematic group should have its own category as in GEPR.
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 21:32
How about prog albums by non-prog bands.
------------- a.k.a. H.T.
http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com
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Posted By: Bern
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 21:34
That's one hell of an idea
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RIP in bossa nova heaven.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 21:40
sounds like a good idea to me.... anything to get more prog albums,
where they belong... on this site.. even those by traditionally
'non-prog' groups.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 21:42
That would have been great! Excellent idea
------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on!
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Posted By: The Rock
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 22:40
Good Idea,I did suggest such a categorie a while ago.
Golden Earring should be on PA,big time!
They could easily fit in the proto,art rock or prog related category.
Why aren't they on PA is beyond me.
Their early albums(1968-77) all contains almost 100% prog.
------------- What's gonna come out of my mouth is gonna come out of my soul."Skip Prokop"
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Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 22:50
Everyone's pretty much unanimous on this (except one, there's always one). That means it should happen.
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 22:59
Who will decide what's "prog" and what's not, and how much "prog" content on an album is enough for inclusion?
(And what the heck is prog, anyway? No two people seem able to agree on that.)
A subjective can o' worms, and it feels like a value judgement, to me (as if "not prog" = "not good enough for us").
Sorry, I'm the sole " no" vote (so far). I believe that if an artist is here, all of their albums should be here. Let the reviews discuss the "prog or not" thing -- it's a very subjective notion.
Plus, a LOT of existing reviews would get dumped, as you remove the "non prog" albums. (That's not going to happen.)
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 23:03
Then there's no need for you to post this here. Anyone with a strong opinion about this would post there.
There has already been discussion about why we need classification by album methods before. It has interest, but it hasn't really been acted upon. It's a good idea, I think genre classification by album would clear up a lot of problems many members have with the current classification system, but it just simply hasn't been acted on yet.
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"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls."
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 23:13
I'm not trying to be difficult or contankerous, but I think this idea would only lead to more "prog or not"/"WTF is prog?" arguments.
(You see, prog does not really exist.)
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 23:47
Peter Rideout wrote:
I'm not trying to be difficult or contankerous, but I think this idea would only lead to more "prog or not"/"WTF is prog?" arguments.
(You see, prog does not really exist.) |
sure your entitled to your opinion, this is what make this site so great is differing views.
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Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: July 07 2006 at 23:51
[
There has already been discussion about why we need classification by album methods before. It has interest, but it hasn't really been acted upon. It's a good idea, I think genre classification by album would clear up a lot of problems many members have with the current classification system, but it just simply hasn't been acted on yet. [/QUOTE]
Yeah I'm just trying to draw attention to it, the reason I posted it here was so people could vote on it, also this sub-category of threads trends to gather more interest giving a more general view of the website. Well if you guys have already thought about it I'm sure It'll happen soon, this is just a bit of a nudge in that direction.
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Posted By: robertplantowns
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 00:02
I for one don't understand the obsession with finding out ultimately who's "truly prog" and who's not. It really doesn't matter and it would be a waste of time on this site. Also, isn't the whole point of proto-prog and prog-related categories is that they're NOT prog to begin with, so why should we be verifying their proginess when by the fact that they're in those categories it has already been established? Seems nonsensical to me. It seriously doesn't matter to me whether a band is labeled as prog, if you want to listen to the most innovative and proggy band, that's your choice, and if you want to listen to a band that's barely proggy at al, that's fine too. I think artists should be labeled by what the majority of their output is considered, and let the reviews speak for themselves! I also think this would take a disincentive out of reviews where people speak what they truly feel about the album and its "prog worthiness" rather than simply hitting a button to vote on a PROG FROM 1-10 scale. Maybe I'm the only one in here but this idea sounds ridiculous to me. I VOTE NO
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Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 00:24
robertplantowns wrote:
I for one don't understand the obsession with finding out ultimately who's "truly prog" and who's not. It really doesn't matter and it would be a waste of time on this site. Also, isn't the whole point of proto-prog and prog-related categories is that they're NOT prog to begin with, so why should we be verifying their proginess when by the fact that they're in those categories it has already been established? Seems nonsensical to me. It seriously doesn't matter to me whether a band is labeled as prog, if you want to listen to the most innovative and proggy band, that's your choice, and if you want to listen to a band that's barely proggy at al, that's fine too. I think artists should be labeled by what the majority of their output is considered, and let the reviews speak for themselves! I also think this would take a disincentive out of reviews where people speak what they truly feel about the album and its "prog worthiness" rather than simply hitting a button to vote on a PROG FROM 1-10 scale. Maybe I'm the only one in here but this idea sounds ridiculous to me. I VOTE NO |
I consider prog by the albums more than the band, thats the problem if we rely on prog related and proto it leaves many questions unanswered, unfortunately with what you speak of with the reviews is flawed, because if you are saying its the reviews that speak for it that could lead to the problem of allowing every style of music in and just allowing reviews to guide it, that means I could put Boy George(I don't like his music btw) on the website and wait for reviews to sort it out, thats why we have and admin team to sort these things out, and thats why we have these discussions to see if they have any merit, and if the admin like the idea. We can't have Miles Davis or David Bowie on prog related etc because their body of work is too different but some particular albums such as Davis's Bitches Brew anre important Milestones in prog and I believe that more people on this website should find out about it and that people review it, and appreciate it's significance to prog history.
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 00:36
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 00:43
The big question...Who decides which albums are really Prog?
I would love to add Their Satanic Majesties Request (Rolling Stones) as Psychedelic but not so sure how easy will it be to manage albums by absolutely non proog bands.
We have people already asking why is STYX or Be Bop´Deluxe here, imagine if somebody would believe some Earth Wind & Fire or Progressive House album should be added.
The idea is good, but has it's problems.
Iván
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Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 00:50
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The big question...Who decides which albums are really Prog?
I would love to add Their Satanic Majesties Request (Rolling Stones) as Psychedelic but not so sure how easy will it be to manage albums by absolutely non proog bands.
We have people already asking why is STYX or Be Bop´Deluxe here, imagine if somebody would believe some Earth Wind & Fire or Progressive House album should be added.
The idea is good, but has it's problems.
Iván |
Well I think we still just as many problems now I don't think prog related is perfect, also Art Rock section has its problems - yes King Crimson belongs there but I don't think Van Der Graff Generator does etc so there are still disputes, the fact that Bitches Brew by Miles Davis on this site is also a problem, I still think a strict criteria still should apply, infact I think It'll improve everything a lot we can dump all the Beatles early stuff, they certainly don't belong on this site. Its down to the question is this particular album prog? if it is it belongs here if not it doesn't. I'm not talking about AOR stuff like Greendays latest album, I'm talking about pure prog here. Its basically kicking out all the dead wait that isn't prog on this website like the non prog Styx albums? while having classic prog albums that are here.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 01:45
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Well I think we still just as many problems now I don't think prog related is perfect,
Neither do I, buit it's good enough.
Also Art Rock section has its problems - yes King Crimson belongs there but I don't think Van Der Graff Generator does etc so there are still disputes,
My team sent with unimous votes VDGG there, because it has many of many genres.
I still think a strict criteria still should apply, infact I think It'll improve everything a lot we can dump all the Beatles early stuff, they certainly don't belong on this site.
Also Genesis lets say after Duke would be great, but it's an opemn door that I don't totally like.
Its down to the question is this particular album prog? if it is it belongs here if not it doesn't. I'm not talking about AOR stuff like Greendays latest album, I'm talking about pure prog here.
You, me and some other members of course will do their bestr, but already there's people talking about Progressive Rap or Hip Hop every week, people asking to add Meatloaf (One of my favorite bands but not Prog).
When there's an open door, people abuuse, that's a fact, the additions were oipened for a while to anybody and it was a disaster, so it had to be closed again.
Its basically kicking out all the dead wait that isn't prog on this website like the non prog Styx albums? while having classic prog albums that are here.
The policy ofhis site is not to remove bands once they are inside and less when there are revoiews, something with what I agree.
If it's done, it has to be very limited, not everybody should be allowed to add their favorite album.
Iván |
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Posted By: theBox
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 02:37
Brilliant Idea Cheesecakemouse!
I voted yes!
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Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 02:43
Ivan Melgar, the difference with groups like genesis is that their foundations are prog, the beatles wern't, also even their more commercial albums were prog related eg Dominoes, Second Home by the sea. That is the difference Yes and Genesis are prog bands the Beatles wern't. This is what I'm saying; non prog bands/artists like the Beatles and Miles Davis has some prog albums, put them and exclude their non prog because its irrelevent, Genesis and Yes pop music has relevance to many prog fans although usually in the more negative area and againthere are still prog - related material in it.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 03:04
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Ivan Melgar, the difference with groups like genesis is that their foundations are prog, the beatles wern't, also even their more commercial albums were prog related eg Dominoes, Second Home by the sea. That is the difference Yes and Genesis are prog bands the Beatles wern't. This is what I'm saying; non prog bands/artists like the Beatles and Miles Davis has some prog albums, put them and exclude their non prog because its irrelevent, Genesis and Yes pop music has relevance to many prog fans although usually in the more negative area and againthere are still prog - related material in it. |
I get your point, The Beatles are not mainly Prog (Except SPLHCB and Abbey Road) and Genesis is the best Prog band ever (That's what I honestly believe).
But I do believe their albums after Duke should be deleted.
I like the idea, as i said I see no reasoon why Their Satanic Majesties Request is not here, but the risk of some inadequate additions that would attempt against the nature and essense of this site is too high.
Iván
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Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 03:13
Ivan,Genesis is my favourite prog band, but I think that post Duke albums need to be there because there are some prog-related material on them, also stuff like 3 sides live has some classic tracks like the Musical box on it.
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Posted By: video vertigo
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 04:03
I think the idea is good, but should these bands be allowed into the top albums? I'm already unhappy about the beatles in our top 100, who's next? I like that this site is growing and more info about more types of music are becoming apart of PA, but I'm here for prog 99.98% of the time.
------------- "The rock and roll business is pretty absurd, but the world of serious music is much worse." - Zappa
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Posted By: horza
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 04:09
Sounds like a good idea to me.
------------- Originally posted by darkshade:
Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.
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Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 04:38
[QUOTE=video vertigo]I think the idea is good, but should these bands be allowed into the top albums? I'm already unhappy about the beatles in our top 100, who's next?
Yeah I don't like the Beatles there either, good point.
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Posted By: Tricalix
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 08:22
Peter Rideout wrote:
I'm not trying to be difficult or contankerous, but I think this idea would only lead to more "prog or not"/"WTF is prog?" arguments.
(You see, prog does not really exist.) |
Exactly. Let's talk about how good music is, and not how prog it is. Cause I don't see the sense of doing that
------------- I hate signatures.
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Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 08:23
I'm unsure until someone convince me of the need for this. How many albums do you expect in this new category? if under 10 then perhaps it's not really worth the energy.
In addition, it wil further dilute this site by shifting the focus away from the truly progressive artists.
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Posted By: ANDREW
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 08:24
Yes, Dark-Prog / Hard-Prog.
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Posted By: plodder
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 08:31
More prog genres, just what the world needs. Like more lawyers.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/plodder/?chartstyle=basicrt10">
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 08:35
earlyprog wrote:
I'm unsure until someone convince me of the need for
this. How many albums do you expect in this new category? if under 10
then perhaps it's not really worth the energy.
In addition, it wil further dilute this site by shifting the focus away from the truly progressive artists. |
I can think of half that number in the pure jazz category right off the
top of my head.... factor in rock... it would far surpass 10..
might even approach the 100's.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 12:03
Sorry, but I believe this to be a purely academic (ie, futile) exercise.
Quite some time ago, before many of you joined, it was decided by "the powers that be" (the owners -- and this site is NOT a democracy; nor am I saying it should be) that once an artist was in, then the entire discography of that artist would be in.
The entire notion of "prog or not/where the cutoff point for an artist should be" is VERY subjective, because "prog" itself is a subjective notion. Unlike, for example, jazz or blues, "prog" is not really a genre, but a subjective value judgement -- it is in the "ear of the hearer," so to speak. (Just think of the wide range of very diverse artists represented here: for example, we have Yes, Deep Purple, Dream Theater, some "death" metal, Talk Talk, Queen, Radiohead, the Beatles, etc, etc. The "connections" or "common ground" among all of those artists are tenuous at best!
Also, consider all of the artists that are regularly held up for potential inclusion: we've had everyone from Talking Heads to Steely Dan to Black Sabbath. Clearly, again, "prog" is a very subjective notion (that is what I mean when I say that it "doesn't really exist") that is up to each of us to privately define. If you think Talking Heads, Sabbath, early Genesis and Steely Dan belong together, then great: burn your homemade "prog" compilation and arrange your collection accordingly (but don't expect others to necessarily "buy into" your vision of "prog").
No, I see partial representation of an artist as just one more thing to argue about, divide us, and make the site even more exclusive (whereas the owners want PA to be inclusive) and elitest.
As another person has suggested above, I think we have too many "hair-splitting," amorphous categories already. As I've said many times, art is not math or science -- our words and "definitions" cannot neatly contain it. It is not an intellectual exercise -- it lives more in the heart of the individual, not the head. All of these "boxes" of words (and words are open to interpretation) we keep designing for the "categorization" of music simply do not work -- except, perhaps, on an individual listener basis. (And that's also the reason to drop the words which accompany the star ratings!)
Let the individual reviews address the (subjective) issues of "progginess!"
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 12:13
points well made Peter....
the only way I could see to work... if the 'powers that be' wanted
it... would be not to have a mass inclusion of albums... that would be
chaos.. and lead to many problems that you mention, but to have a
'team' who would be responsible for individual album inclusions.
The team would consist of a wide range of ages and interest and reflect
all the notions of what is and is not prog. The site great as it
is.. cannot remain static.. in order to make it even better...
sometimes you need to be a bit bold and go for the gusto and including
obvious prog gems that are not here is one way to do it. How many
more stupid PM or best Genesis album threads can you or anyone else
bear to stand. It might shake things up a bit.. and when it
settles.. we may have a even BETTER site to discuss our beloved
prog
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 13:42
All:
I find it interesting that all of the "oldest" members - Peter, Ivan, Video Vertigo - are the ones trying to explain why the idea is probably not a good one.
As another veteran member (and one of the first, if not the first, admin), I must agree with them. In fact, it was I who first brought up this idea over three years ago - before many of the "debated" bands were included (Radiohead, Queen, Beatles et al). At that time, I suggested a category for prog (or proggish) albums by non-prog groups. I was thinking of everything from Revolver, Pepper and MMT by The Beatles, to Original Soundtrack and How Dare You by 10CC, to English Settlement and Mummer by XTC, etc. I even argued that the inclusion of Supertramp was a mistake, since only their second album and Crime of the Century could truly be considered "prog" or "proggish."
My suggestion met with an approximately equal amount of support and rejection. But it was the wisdom of veterans like Peter and Ivan that convinced me I was going down the wrong road, for the very reason that Peter makes clear (and that cheesecakemouse seems to be missing or ignoring): how does one determine which albums by which groups are "prog" or "proggish" when no "conclusive" definition of "prog" can be agreed upon? And even if such a definition could be generally agreed upon, how does one determine the "degree" of "proggyness" of a particular album? What are the parameters? Who decides?
Peter, Ivan and VV (among others) are correct: this idea - which is admittedly well-intentioned and even, to some degree, well-argued (just as mine was) - is an unnecessary and potentially divisive one - more divisive than most of you are able to see right now in your well-intentioned, but ultimately limited, focus on the seeming merits of the idea.
Peace.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 19:51
maani wrote:
All:
I find it interesting that all of the "oldest" members - Peter,
Ivan, Video Vertigo - are the ones trying to explain why the idea is
probably not a good one.
As another veteran member (and one of the first, if not the
first, admin), I must agree with them. In fact, it was I who
first brought up this idea over three years ago - before many of the
"debated" bands were included (Radiohead, Queen, Beatles et al).
At that time, I suggested a category for prog (or proggish) albums by
non-prog groups. I was thinking of everything from Revolver,
Pepper and MMT by The Beatles, to Original Soundtrack and How Dare You
by 10CC, to English Settlement and Mummer by XTC, etc. I even
argued that the inclusion of Supertramp was a mistake, since only their
second album and Crime of the Century could truly be considered "prog"
or "proggish."
My suggestion met with an approximately equal amount of support
and rejection. But it was the wisdom of veterans like Peter and
Ivan that convinced me I was going down the wrong road, for the very
reason that Peter makes clear (and that cheesecakemouse seems to be
missing or ignoring): how does one determine which albums by which
groups are "prog" or "proggish" when no "conclusive" definition of
"prog" can be agreed upon? And even if such a definition could
be generally agreed upon, how does one determine the "degree" of
"proggyness" of a particular album? What are the parameters? Who
decides?
Peter, Ivan and VV (among others) are correct: this idea - which
is admittedly well-intentioned and even, to some degree, well-argued
(just as mine was) - is an unnecessary and potentially divisive one -
more divisive than most of you are able to see right now in your
well-intentioned, but ultimately limited, focus on the seeming merits of the idea.
Peace. |
I see where you and Peter specifically are coming from... but if you
could answer me this and I'll sit down quietly and shut my big yapper
hahaha.... would not those problems be solved by a 'crack' team of
S.C.'s from range of ages and tastes who would then decide what is to
be added and what is not. Would and should have no more division
or rancor then normal admissions by the various teams have
already.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: Sacred 22
Date Posted: July 09 2006 at 08:44
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 09 2006 at 12:09
micky wrote:
I see where you and Peter specifically are coming from... but if you could answer me this and I'll sit down quietly and shut my big yapper hahaha.... would not those problems be solved by a 'crack' team of S.C.'s from range of ages and tastes who would then decide what is to be added and what is not. Would and should have no more division or rancor then normal admissions by the various teams have already.
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Micky, seems you have bad memory, you're part of a team already and you know how much preasure can be placed on us for just changing one band from Symphonic to Neo Prog or Art Rock. We're not eliminating a band, we're not adding a band, we're just changing a genre and still we got some serious debates in the Collaborators and Prog Lounge Forums.
Now multiply that for 10 if you as part of a team don't accept a determined album, you will have a lot of preasure if you refuse to add a hip hop or Disco album to that section.
Now multiply that for 10 again if you add a Rolling Stones, Earth Eind & Fire or Boston album, some people will start to make problems, there are still members making a lot of noise because Kansas is here.
Then, you would need a team not only formed by specialist on one but in every genre, I can't get the difference between RIO and Post Rock or Death Prog Metal and Viking Prog Metal, so you would need at least 10 members.
Now add the time gap, you know we have to stay until 2 am and Raffaella has to wake at 5 or 6 AM to discuss with us. How many members are willing to do that?
Now, add the risk of opening the door for absolutely each and every band in the musical spectrum, from Motown to Madonna (Some people claim that songs as "Like a Prayer" are related to Prog, this would be chaotic
Now add all the accurate points Maani and Peter made like the divisive factor, you will have 100 posts asking if A or B album is Prog of not and if the team has the bad luck to disagree with the opinion of the fans of determined band and/or album you would have a civil war on hands.
No, this would never work.
Iván
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Posted By: WaywardSon
Date Posted: July 09 2006 at 12:12
Madonna "Like a Prayer" related to Prog?!! That really made me laugh!
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: July 09 2006 at 12:20
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Micky, seems you have bad memory, you're part of a team already and you know how much preasure can be placed on us for just changing one band from Symphonic to Neo Prog or Art Rock. We're not eliminating a band, we're not adding a band, we're just changing a genre and still we got some serious debates in the Collaborators and Prog Lounge Forums. True, though luckily not too often.
Now multiply that for 10 if you as part of a team don't accept a determined album, you will have a lot of preasure if you refuse to add a hip hop or Disco album to that section.
Now multiply that for 10 again if you add a Rolling Stones, Earth Eind & Fire or Boston album, some people will start to make problems, there are still members making a lot of noise because Kansas is here. This is true, but I don't really know whether we should let ourselves be influenced by what people think. No one will always agree on everything. Obviously IMHO.
Then, you would need a team not only formed by specialist on one but in every genre, I can't get the difference between RIO and Post Rock or Death Prog Metal and Viking Prog Metal, so you would need at least 10 members. I'm not sure about this...
Now add the time gap, you know we have to stay until 2 am and Raffaella has to wake at 5 or 6 AM to discuss with us. How many members are willing to do that? How true.., but I wouldn't miss it for anything in the world! I'm proud to be a member of the Three Horsemen of Symphonic Prog!
Now, add the risk of opening the door for absolutely each and every band in the musical spectrum, from Motown to Madonna (Some people claim that songs as "Like a Prayer" are related to Prog, this would be chaotic That is beyond ridiculous! Though it's true, remember the Duran Duran thread...
Now add all the accurate points Maani and Peter made like the divisive factor, you will have 100 posts asking if A or B album is Prog of not and if the team has the bad luck to disagree with the opinion of the fans of determined band and/or album you would have a civil war on hands.
No, this would never work.
Iván
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 09 2006 at 13:21
Ghost Rider wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
hahahah... since my high horse was shot last
night... I will stick to my pledge having recieved my answer and sit
down quietly and shut my big yapper ...however...before I do....
Micky, seems you have bad memory, you're
part of a team already and you know how much preasure can be placed on
us for just changing one band from Symphonic to Neo Prog or Art Rock.
We're not eliminating a band, we're not adding a band, we're just
changing a genre and still we got some serious debates in the
Collaborators and Prog Lounge Forums. True, though luckily not too often.
Pressure.. Ivan... pressure is litigating a
important case... presenting a seminar.... delivering a job your boss
has made clear that you are to do.... This site is
fun... I feel no pressure, and neither should anyone else.
Debates are healthy and natural..as long as conducted like adults.
Now multiply that for 10 if you as part of a team don't accept a
determined album, you will have a lot of preasure if you refuse to add
a hip hop or Disco album to that section.
Well
along with the perks of being a S.C or P.R. comes responsiblity... to
be able to explain your decisions... and if need be... stand up against
the 'masses'.
Now multiply that for 10 again if you add a Rolling Stones, Earth
Eind & Fire or Boston album, some people will start to make
problems, there are still members making a lot of noise because Kansas
is here. This is true, but I don't really
know whether we should let ourselves be influenced by what people
think. No one will always agree on everything. Obviously IMHO.
Again.. what I'm proposing is no different
than what we do... the decision would be made by the team... it
would be final... and the forum at large may not like it... they'll
bitch about it.... then life would go on... as it always has
here. The earth did not open up and shallow PA's when ELO was
included.. or the Beatles... hahahha
Then, you would need a team not only formed by specialist on one
but in every genre, I can't get the difference between RIO and Post
Rock or Death Prog Metal and Viking Prog Metal, so you would need at
least 10 members. I'm not sure about this...
those are small details... as we have proven... a small group can work... and a large one..would be even better....
Now add the time gap, you know we have to stay until 2 am and
Raffaella has to wake at 5 or 6 AM to discuss with us. How many members
are willing to do that? How true.., but I wouldn't miss it for anything in the world! I'm proud to be a member of the Three Horsemen of Symphonic Prog!
ahhh.... not to be flippant Ivan.... PM's
work just as well... what we do actually does not require us to meet...
we do because we enjoy each other's company..
Now, add the risk of opening the door for absolutely each and
every band in the musical spectrum, from Motown to Madonna (Some people
claim that songs as "Like a Prayer" are related to Prog, this would be
chaotic That is beyond ridiculous! Though it's true, remember the Duran Duran thread...
once again.... small details.... make the
inclusion process mandatory that all group members agree before
inclusion.. with the range of ages and tastes.. it serves the purpose
of including albums that SHOULD be here..
Now add all the accurate points Maani and Peter made like the
divisive factor, you will have 100 posts asking if A or B album is Prog
of not and if the team has the bad luck to disagree with the opinion of
the fans of determined band and/or album you would have a civil war on
hands.
No, this would never work.
Iván
hahah... and
I've shown that it can work and would work... it just involves
change... and that is something that some peope are resistant to..
having spole my piece on the matter.... I'll sit down and shut the hell up ahhahah Besides... it's time for the game!
|
|
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 09 2006 at 19:56
micky wrote:
Pressure.. Ivan... pressure is litigating a important case... presenting a seminar.... delivering a job your boss has made clear that you are to do.... This site is fun... I feel no pressure, and neither should anyone else. Debates are healthy and natural..as long as conducted like adults.
|
Well Micky I understand you can't remember this because you had some problems and not working with the group for a couple of weeks when this happened.
- A band was changed from Symphonic to Art Rock (You also voted in favour before leaving.
- We were criticized and even insulted outside the Collaborator's zone
- A Collaboratoir disagreed so much that started a poll in the open section of the Forum
- The insults and attacks run from one side to another.
- Our thread was closed and the Symphonic team almost disolved (With more than enough reasons for Tony)
- I had to personally PM all the members involved in the discussion just to avoid any further problem.
- This was used as an excuse by members who don't agree with Sub-Genres to attack all the structure.
- We had to start all over again and loose one week's work.
All this because ONE BAND not removed or added to/from Prog Archives, only changed from Symphonic to Art Rock
Well along with the perks of being a S.C or P.R. comes responsiblity... to be able to explain your decisions... and if need be... stand up against the 'masses'. |
I can't talk for everybody, but at least for me it's a lot of work that I do with pleasure (And I know you too), we sacrifice family and even work time what again I do happilly because I love PA and Prog.
Again.. what I'm proposing is no different than what we do... the decision would be made by the team... it would be final... and the forum at large may not like it... they'll bitch about it.... then life would go on... as it always has here. The earth did not open up and shallow PA's when ELO was included.. or the Beatles... hahahha |
No, it diddn't opened, but The Beatles have some Prog elements in a couple of albums plus it was a special case and ELO was added by mistake against what all polls said. Imagine if the team by one or two votes adds a Rap, Hip Hop or a Disco album, that would create chaos.
The addition of Radiohead caused a big problem but probably you won't remember it because you weren't a member yet.
those are small details... as we have proven... a small group can work... and a large one..would be even better.... |
Small details? Micky we are currently three working, one member resigned even before the team was created, two weren't able to be a part, one is missing and one member only contributes with his wise advice when asked.
I had to choose a completely new team and despite this we are still currently three when we are 5 in reality.
ahhh.... not to be flippant Ivan.... PM's work just as well... what we do actually does not require us to meet... we do because we enjoy each other's company.. |
I consider this reunions useful maybe because we all enjoy our company is the reason why we're still working, but remember Raffaella wakes at 5 or 6 am to meet us and we have to stay until well after midnight.
once again.... small details.... make the inclusion process mandatory that all group members agree before inclusion.. with the range of ages and tastes.. it serves the purpose of including albums that SHOULD be here.. |
Then forget ityou will never make ten persons to agree about a non Prog band, you would be lucky if you get more than 50%.
hahah... and I've shown that it can work and would work... it just involves change... and that is something that some peope are resistant to..
having spole my piece on the matter.... I'll sit down and shut the hell up ahhahah Besides... it's time for the game!
|
Everybody here agrees about change Micky, but not everybody will agree about the same changes.
It's fun have a debate with you, something I had forgotten since we work together in the Symphonic team....I missed them, sadly we agree most of the times with the changes that have to be made inside Symphonic sub-genre.
Iván -------------
|
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: July 09 2006 at 22:02
Look I'm not trying to cause more trouble than this website, I just wanted to see where people stand on such issues, with the issues such as Madonna; thats really extreme cases 99% would not agree with such a thing. What someone said earlier about me not appreciating how there'll be a problem what level of prog will an artist need to be included on this website, is a fair comment. There will always be problems no matter how things are categorised, the arts are almost impossible to categorise efficiently,there are always those falling between the cracks, and always a frustration that others are not included and why others are, its a system and like all human systems its flawed. My frustration is the exclusion of Miles Davis but I do appreciate the can of worms it'll open if he was included, no one will ever be 100% satisfied with this website, but as they say 'if it aint' broke don't fix it.' So of course it isn't perfect, and it will never be perfect, and so there'll always be debates in the forums, most liely till the end of time or the end of the internet. Oh well.
-------------
|
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 09 2006 at 23:00
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
micky wrote:
Pressure..
Ivan... pressure is litigating a important case... presenting a
seminar.... delivering a job your boss has made clear that you are to
do.... This site is fun... I feel no pressure, and
neither should anyone else. Debates are healthy and natural..as
long as conducted like adults.
|
Well
Micky I understand you can't remember this because you had some
problems and not working with the group for a couple of weeks when this
happened.
- A band was changed from Symphonic to Art Rock (You also voted in favour before leaving.
- We were criticized and even insulted outside the Collaborator's zone
- A Collaboratoir disagreed so much that started a poll in the open section of the Forum
- The insults and attacks run from one side to another.
- Our thread was closed and the Symphonic team almost disolved (With more than enough reasons for Tony)
- I had to personally PM all the members involved in the discussion just to avoid any further problem.
- This was used as an excuse by members who don't agree with Sub-Genres to attack all the structure.
- We had to start all over again and loose one week's work.
All this because ONE BAND not removed or added to/from Prog Archives, only changed from Symphonic to Art Rock
Well
along with the perks of being a S.C or P.R. comes responsiblity... to
be able to explain your decisions... and if need be... stand up against
the 'masses'. |
I
can't talk for everybody, but at least for me it's a lot of work that I
do with pleasure (And I know you too), we sacrifice family and even
work time what again I do happilly because I love PA and Prog.
Again..
what I'm proposing is no different than what we do... the
decision would be made by the team... it would be final... and the
forum at large may not like it... they'll bitch about it.... then life
would go on... as it always has here. The earth did not open up
and shallow PA's when ELO was included.. or the Beatles... hahahha |
No, it diddn't opened, but The Beatles have some Prog
elements in a couple of albums plus it was a special case and
ELO was added by mistake against what all polls said. Imagine if
the team by one or two votes adds a Rap, Hip Hop or a Disco
album, that would create chaos.
The addition of Radiohead caused a big problem but probably you won't remember it because you weren't a member yet.
those are small details... as we have proven... a small group can work... and a large one..would be even better.... |
Small
details? Micky we are currently three working, one member resigned even
before the team was created, two weren't able to be a part, one is
missing and one member only contributes with his wise advice when
asked.
I had to choose a completely new team and despite this we are still currently three when we are 5 in reality.
ahhh....
not to be flippant Ivan.... PM's work just as well... what we do
actually does not require us to meet... we do because we enjoy each
other's company.. |
I consider this
reunions useful maybe because we all enjoy our company is the reason
why we're still working, but remember Raffaella wakes at 5 or 6 am to
meet us and we have to stay until well after midnight.
once
again.... small details.... make the inclusion process mandatory that
all group members agree before inclusion.. with the range of ages and
tastes.. it serves the purpose of including albums that SHOULD be here.. |
Then forget ityou will never make ten persons to agree about a non Prog band, you would be lucky if you get more than 50%.
hahah...
and I've shown that it can work and would work... it just involves
change... and that is something that some peope are resistant to..
having spole my piece on the matter.... I'll sit down and shut the hell up ahhahah Besides... it's time for the game!
|
Everybody here agrees about change Micky, but not everybody will agree about the same changes.
It's fun have a debate with you, something I had
forgotten since we work together in the Symphonic team....I missed
them, sadly we agree most of the times with the changes that have to be
made inside Symphonic sub-genre.
hahah.. no offense but as much as I miss debating
you.. what I miss most is the opportunity to break out the hot pink on
you. I did say I'd let this drop so I will. Tony told me
yesterday on a different matter to just trust the 'powers that
be' You've made your points... I've made mine. Though
I must say... I think I got you on this one hahaha
Iván |
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
|
Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: July 10 2006 at 05:35
RycheMan wrote:
Great Idea!
Hopefully those early Rainbow albums would get some recognition. Some Bowie, BOC etc |
This is my opinion!!!
-------------
|
Posted By: S Lang
Date Posted: July 11 2006 at 06:15
There are obviously difficulties with finding a way to feature John McLaughlin, Jack Bruce, Miles Davis, etc. on the Archives. It can be argued forever, but considering that we are talking about legends ignored, it's just untenable.
There's got to be a way to do it.
|
Posted By: Phil
Date Posted: July 11 2006 at 07:45
Excellent idea, cheesecakemouse, I do think albums like Bowies "Heroes" or "Low", Miles Davis' Bitches Brew, maybe some of The Flaming Lips, ought to be recognised as being "progressive" or having prog-like themes. Perhaps this is the way to do it. I certainly feel the wholesale inclusion of some artistes is not really appropriate.
BTW I didn't read all of what's gone before but...Madonna???!!!
|
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 11 2006 at 07:56
Phil wrote:
Excellent idea, cheesecakemouse, I do think albums like Bowies "Heroes" or "Low", Miles Davis' Bitches Brew, maybe some of The Flaming Lips, ought to be recognised as being "progressive" or having prog-like themes. Perhaps this is the way to do it. I certainly feel the wholesale inclusion of some artistes is not really appropriate.
BTW I didn't read all of what's gone before but...Madonna???!!! |
Yes. Madonna can be submitted, along with any other candidate. Then she will be immediately rejected.
------------- a.k.a. H.T.
http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com
|
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: July 11 2006 at 08:11
MANDRAKEROOT wrote:
[QUOTE=RycheMan]Great Idea!
Hopefully those early Rainbow albums would get some recognition. Some Bowie, BOC etc
|
Also:
Pretty Things(SF Sorrow), The Who, Small Faces (Ogden Nut Flake), Miles
Davis, Herbie Hancock, Bee Gees: Odessa, Joni Mitchell, Rolling
Stones(At His Satanic Majesties Request), Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden,
Metallica, Tim Buckley mm..., have all made an album or two that has a
natural place here.
Still can't see any good reasons why they shouldn't. Who'll decide
what? That's a question than can be asked for every inlusion. Why is
this more relevant here?
------------- Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
|
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: July 11 2006 at 10:37
MANDRAKEROOT wrote:
RycheMan wrote:
Great Idea!
Hopefully those early Rainbow albums would get some recognition. Some Bowie, BOC etc |
This is my opinion!!!
|
Do you really think their presence here is going to "make or break" these artists?
Are you, I and all not still free to like/listen to them?
Surely most people here (who have attained the age of reason) are familiar with Bowie?
The arguing would be ENDLESS: "How could you only list Low, Heroes and Lodger? Have you even HEARD Outside? It is way more proggy than those! Why, I oughtta...." (blah blah blah de freakin' BLAH!)
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
|
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: July 11 2006 at 18:04
I think that the Admin/Collabs concerns are legitimate, maybe we could try this on trial and if it fails then no need to worry, I guess it just depends if its worth all the trouble getting it up and running if its only for a short time?
-------------
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 11 2006 at 18:23
No Raindance, there's nothing on trial here, once a band or album has been added, there's no turning back, that's the policy of the site.
BTW: Look some posts above, there's one member asking for The Bee Gees already, no album by this POP/Disco icons gets even remotely close to Prog.
Already other members have requested on other threads since a couple of years:
1.- Chicago
2.- Boston
3.- Journey
4.- Mountain
5.- The Cure
6.- Talking Heads
7.- Meatloaf
8.- Vanessa Mae
9.- Elton John
10.- Earth Wind & Fire
We have to deal with this, it's somehow easy to ignore this incredible requests, but it would be almost impossible to deal with hundreeds if not a thousand albums that sooner or later will be requested.
Iván
-------------
|
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: July 11 2006 at 18:28
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
No Raindance, there's nothing on trial here, once a band or album has been added, there's no turning back, that's the policy of the site.
BTW: Look some posts above, there's one member asking for The Bee Gees already, no album by this POP/Disco icons gets even remotely close to Prog.
Already other members have requested on other threads since a couple of years:
1.- Chicago
2.- Boston
3.- Journey
4.- Mountain
5.- The Cure
6.- Talking Heads
7.- Meatloaf
8.- Vanessa Mae
9.- Elton John
10.- Earth Wind & Fire
We have to deal with this, it's somehow easy to ignore this incredible requests, but it would be almost impossible to deal with hundreeds if not a thousand albums that sooner or later will be requested.
Iván |
Yeah theres no way the Cure or Talking Heads should be included, great bands but definately not prog, I'm saterting to the floodgates that will be opened, the system isn't perfect with no Miles Davis, but I'm starting to think that allowing him in will cause a lot of problems with other requests.
-------------
|
Posted By: WaywardSon
Date Posted: July 11 2006 at 18:42
Peter Rideout wrote:
MANDRAKEROOT wrote:
RycheMan wrote:
Great Idea!
Hopefully those early Rainbow albums would get some recognition. Some Bowie, BOC etc |
This is my opinion!!!
|
Do you really think their presence here is going to "make or break" these artists?
I´m not really following you here with "make or break" these artists? Many here would find these albums interesting to discuss, and judging from this poll it´s the majority.
Are you, I and all not still free to like/listen to them?
Of course we are.
Surely most people here (who have attained the age of reason) are familiar with Bowie?
Of course.
The arguing would be ENDLESS: "How could you only list Low, Heroes and Lodger? Have you even HEARD Outside? It is way more proggy than those! Why, I oughtta...." (blah blah blah de freakin' BLAH!) |
The arguing if some artists in specific genres deserve to be there in the first place happens everyday too
|
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 04:47
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BTW: Look some posts above, there's one member asking for The Bee Gees already, no album by this POP/Disco icons gets even remotely close to Prog.
Iván |
Odessa is a concept double album from '69, not too far from the sound
of Moody Blues, and equally progsounding. ELO's debut has nothing to do
with their later Discovery album, and you can' dismiss Genesis' Foxtrot
because of We Can't Dance. Same thing here. You obviously haven't heard
this album, but that kind of details rarely stops you from having
strong opinons.
------------- Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
|
Posted By: S Lang
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 05:11
[QUOTE=Ivan_Melgar_M, once a band or album has been added, there's no turning back, that's the policy of the site.
Maybe it's time to change that attitude?
Already other members have requested on other threads since a couple of years:
1.- Chicago
2.- Boston
3.- Journey
4.Mountain - Yes, please!
5.- The Cure
6.- Talking Heads
7.- Meatloaf
8.- Vanessa Mae
9.- Elton John
10.- Earth Wind & Fire
|
Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: August 22 2006 at 07:43
if an artist's or a band's discography consists of e.g. 8 heavy metal albums and 1 heavy/progressive metal album, i don't think that it matters to me...
i am a huge Maiden fan myself but seeing 'Seventh Son' in the PA isn't exactly what i'm looking for...
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 22 2006 at 17:02
Rocktopus wrote:
Just found this reply on a thread I had forgotten long ago but ressurrected again today by a memeber, so lets go
Odessa is a concept double album from '69, not too far from the sound of Moody Blues, and equally progsounding.
Oh my God, Odessa was a good album (I heard all the Bee Gees until 1972 more or less) but Prog?????
The title track is as simple and boring ballad as Melody Fair and Lamplight; Give your Best is pure Bluegrass; First of May is a bland Pop ballad, there's not a single Prog moment, good is not synonymous of Prog.
The fact they used orchestra in the title song or Seven Seas Symphony (As well as others if I remember well because haven't heard this album in years) doesn't make the album Prog, it's simply POP music played with orchestra
ELO's debut has nothing to do with their later Discovery album, and you can' dismiss Genesis' Foxtrot because of We Can't Dance.
First, I repeated endlessly that I hate those arguments if A is here why not B?
We judge every band for their own merits not because we added band by mistake this opens the door to add other non Prog bands. If you step in dog's feces with one feet, you don't step in with the other to make it even, you take the dirty shoe and clean it.
I still believe (Despite Micky disagrees) that ELO was a mistake, IMO it's a Rock and then Disco band that used Orchestra and orchestral arrangements.
Genesis made 7 (SEVEN) albums that are in the top 100 of this or any Prog list in the world (At least 5 of them surely are), they were iconic, the whole Neo Prog started and developed following Genesis footsteps.
The Bee Gees made about 35 albums, all POP and some terribly repulsivedisco albums, they wereicons of the disco movement of the late 70's and also made Odessa, a good Pop album with some nice moments, please don't compare both bands.
Same thing here. You obviously haven't heard this album, but that kind of details rarely stops you from having strong opinons.
I never speak without having heard Rocktopus, I even have original LP's of Odessa, Horizontal, Cucumber Castle and even the Soundtrack of Melody as well (I bought Odessa and Melody, my sister bought the rest) My sister always liked Disco, she bought among others Staying Alive, Saturday Night Fever and Here at Last The Bee gees Live, so don't tell me I talk without listening.
I stay in my point, no Bee Gees album should ever be here because they weren't Prog, Prog Related neither remotely related with Prog.
Iván
|
-------------
|
Posted By: crimson thing
Date Posted: August 22 2006 at 17:33
I'd be in favour of a selected albums type category, but with a few caveats.
For example, to sidestep the argument that noone can find an all encompassing definition of prog, you could call the new category "Notable albums of potential interest to progfans" (although I'm sure someone could find a snappier definition.) That way, you wouldn't have to thread each candidate album through the eye of a prog needle, merely establish that it had something going for it, along with, of course, a modicum of musical talent....
Then, you follow micky's insisitence on a heterogeneous vetting team, and invite suggestions. (I am assuming, maybe naively, no difficulties in getting volunteers...)Hopefully, you then get an eclectic mixture of interesting albums, not necessarily great albums with vociferous champions, but an interesting lucky dip for anyone who occasionally gets the urge to listen to a band outside their ("their", meaning both the band's and the listener's) normal range.
------------- "Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS
|
Posted By: eduardossc
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 03:06
I voted Yes. There should be a category for prog that has the structure and basics of pop. There you could find the very best regarded album in the site "Close to the edge" as "Prog-pop". Or should it be "Pop-Prog"?. You could also find any Spock's beard and The flower kings album as "Easy listening prog", or as "Elevator prog", or "Medical clinic's waiting room prog".
|
Posted By: crimson thing
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 06:00
^ Elevator Prog" is an inspired category.....
------------- "Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS
|
Posted By: progressive
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 12:31
so genesis and yes would be in there? i didn't get it.
Why would the name be "Select Albums"? it's stupid.
genre should be considered to albums, then. It would be good to have many genres per band. It would be easier to find bands (meaning albums) from other categories. Categories shouldn't be the thing to lock it. They're just for search, right? And it's nice to put things in boxes, but.. Well, there could be categories where bands go under, but syles should get under bands, too.
Description of a band or genrewould still be relevant. Band could be different styles, but you want some bigger picture of it. Maybe the band stands in time where there were other bands who had something very like the same, but who still are in other categories..
I also think that there could be more non-prog bands, little proggy. It just should be mentioned. For example Genesis' not-so-prog albums could appear somehow differently in the list.
-------------
► rateyourmusic.com/~Fastro 2672 ratings ▲ last.fm/user/Fastro 5556 artists ▲ www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=4933 266◄
|
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 12:38
No, It would increase the debate over which album is progressive and
which is not. And to be honest, Yes and Genesis albuns from the
eighties should be removed also. If it is to put only prog albuns, it
should be valid to every band.
|
Posted By: Epitath
Date Posted: August 25 2006 at 19:20
sounds like a great idea! Its great that people improve the site :)
-------------
|
Posted By: Seyo
Date Posted: August 26 2006 at 17:29
Yes, for all the bands from prog-related and proto-prog category, only selected albums should be included in PA, not their entire discographies!
The obvious example which "sticks to the eyes" is The Beatles, like "With the Beatles" or "Hard Days Night" are absolute redundancy on this site!
|
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 26 2006 at 20:11
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The big question...Who decides which albums are really Prog? |
We should all decide - collaboratively.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 26 2006 at 21:45
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The big question...Who decides which albums are really Prog? |
We should all decide - collaboratively.
|
There would not be anything better for me than adding:
- Their Satanic Majesties Request by the Rooling Stones
- Tommy and Quadrophenia by The Who
- Seventh Son of a Seventh Son by Iron Maiden
- Jesus Christ Superstar by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice.
- Abraxas and Caravanserai by Santana
But still I have my doubts about being this an open door.
If the majority decides to do it, I'll of course accept it and collaborate in the possible, but still not 100% sure.
We have already Varuious Genres where an Andrew Lkloyd Webber album has been added, so there wouldn't even be need for a new genre.
Iván
-------------
|
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: August 26 2006 at 21:54
I really like this idea. You can't call a band prog by an album or two that are so...but it's only fair those albums get recognized.
|
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: August 30 2006 at 19:03
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The big question...Who decides which albums are really Prog? |
We should all decide - collaboratively.
|
There would not be anything better for me than adding:
- Their Satanic Majesties Request by the Rooling Stones
- Tommy and Quadrophenia by The Who
- Seventh Son of a Seventh Son by Iron Maiden
- Jesus Christ Superstar by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice.
- Abraxas and Caravanserai by Santana
But still I have my doubts about being this an open door.
If the majority decides to do it, I'll of course accept it and collaborate in the possible, but still not 100% sure.
We have already Varuious Genres where an Andrew Lkloyd Webber album has been added, so there wouldn't even be need for a new genre.
Iván |
Well yeah if Various genres can be used in that sense as you mention with Andrew Lloyd Webber (and adding Miles Davis etc), Ivan, then I'll be satisfied.
-------------
|
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 30 2006 at 19:53
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Rocktopus wrote:
Just found this reply on a thread I had forgotten long ago but ressurrected again today by a memeber, so lets go
Odessa is a concept double album from '69, not too far from the sound of Moody Blues, and equally progsounding.
Oh my God, Odessa was a good album (I heard all the Bee Gees until 1972 more or less) but Prog?????
The title track is as simple and boring ballad as Melody Fair and Lamplight; Give your Best is pure Bluegrass; First of May is a bland Pop ballad, there's not a single Prog moment, good is not synonymous of Prog.Whether you think it boring or not is irrelevant. Its not simple. Its obvious that its been a long time since you've been listening to this double album, since you only mention the albums singles/radiosongs and the title track. Most of the songs on this album wouldn't have been out of place on a Moody Blues record. Even the ones you do mention. Roxy Music or Queen are not here because of their singletracks either.
The fact they used orchestra in the title song or Seven Seas Symphony (As well as others if I remember well because haven't heard this album in years) doesn't make the album Prog, it's simply POP music played with orchestra
ELO's debut has nothing to do with their later Discovery album, and you can' dismiss Genesis' Foxtrot because of We Can't Dance.
First, I repeated endlessly that I hate those arguments if A is here why not B? Because this discussion is about the possibilty of adding an album, not band. I think this time this is a valid argumentation. Much more than your argument: 'no album by this POP/Disco icons gets even remotely close to Prog.' Because Odessa is not a Pop/Disco album, and you know it.
We judge every band for their own merits not because we added band by mistake this opens the door to add other non Prog bands. If you step in dog's feces with one feet, you don't step in with the other to make it even, you take the dirty shoe and clean it.
I still believe (Despite Micky disagrees) that ELO was a mistake, IMO it's a Rock and then Disco band that used Orchestra and orchestral arrangements. That's your opinion fine, but they're still here, and I think its correct.
Genesis made 7 (SEVEN) albums that are in the top 100 of this or any Prog list in the world (At least 5 of them surely are), they were iconic, the whole Neo Prog started and developed following Genesis footsteps.
The Bee Gees made about 35 albums, all POP and some terribly repulsivedisco albums, they wereicons of the disco movement of the late 70's and also made Odessa, a good Pop album with some nice moments, please don't compare both bands. I'm comparing because I was suggesting one album, not the band. so the later discostyle you keep talking about is as irrelevant as Genesis' We Can't Dance is for Genesis being on this site. You did dissmiss my Bee Gees suggestion because of what they did later in their carreer, even if you had heard the album in question.
Same thing here. You obviously haven't heard this album, but that kind of details rarely stops you from having strong opinons.
I never speak without having heard Rocktopus, I even have original LP's of Odessa, Horizontal, Cucumber Castle and even the Soundtrack of Melody as well (I bought Odessa and Melody, my sister bought the rest) My sister always liked Disco, she bought among others Staying Alive, Saturday Night Fever and Here at Last The Bee gees Live, so don't tell me I talk without listening.
I stay in my point, no Bee Gees album should ever be here because they weren't Prog, Prog Related neither remotely related with Prog. We won't agree on the Odessa album, just like we don't agree on ELO.
(Or on your strong hatred towards all hip hop artists you haven't heard)
Iván
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------------- Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Posted By: PROGMAN
Date Posted: September 01 2006 at 20:46
What about this as a Genre!!
"Brief Prog" or "One Off Prog"
------------- CYMRU AM BYTH
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