BLACK SABBATH
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23600
Printed Date: February 22 2025 at 07:42
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: BLACK SABBATH
Posted By: Abstrakt
Subject: BLACK SABBATH
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 03:48
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i know, i know...
but listen to thease albums and you'll understand:
   The years 74-78 is actually a bit proggy. Expacially the Songs "The Writ", "Megalomania", "Spiral Architect", "Air Dance" and "Johnny Blade"
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Replies:
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 05:30
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Sabbath voted on and rejected....sorry.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 06:04
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Think it over again Snowie! ------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 07:11
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It's not his (or any other single person's) decision. Black Sabbath were rejected by numerous polls and also by the prog metal team - no chance, not even as prog related.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 07:26
| why not? they have used saxophone, Synthersizer, piano, steel acoustic guitar... they are so much more than just old hard rock! |
Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 08:09
Yes, I'm aware of that. I was referring to the whole Band Submissions Team. Black Sabbath should fit at least in Prog Related subgenre IMO (especially the albums listed by Abstrakt). I agree with what Abstrakt said:
What's more they created a completely new genre - metal. Isn't it progressive? ------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 08:24
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Many things are progressive - although they're not prog. We have to find a balance between progressiveness and "prog" as a genre. I'd be more than happy to add Metallica, Megadeth, Diamond Head - and maybe even Black Sabbath, if "prog" was all about innovation and pioneering new genres.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 08:31
I expected such a reply...  ------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 08:37
Think about what would happen if Black Sabbath were added. Where should it end? The next band would be Steppenwolf, who made a song similar to Paranoid ...  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 08:42
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^ that would be stretching it quite a bit. Maybe we'll add some proto prog metal stuff, but personally I would like to wait until we have genre per album. So only selected albums of these artists would be called "proto-prog" or "prog-related", which would make things much more clear. That's also the problem with the current prog-related bands - many people claim that band XYZ should be here because they are similar to what Deep Purple did in the 70s. But DP are here because of their early albums of the 60s ... ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 08:48
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Well, the song Paranoid isn't too proggy indeed . But if any band had made a song smilar to, let's say, War Pigs or Spiral Architect... ------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 08:53
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What's so progressive about War Pigs? It's one of the most simple songs that I ever heard (and played).
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 09:02
Melody changes, singing almost a capella in parts of it... Hmmm... Maybe you're right...  ------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
Posted By: W.Chuck
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 10:44
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WOW...MELODY CHANGES impressive ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 11:03
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Of course War Pigs can be regarded as somewhat genre defining (Stoner Rock) - but that's about it. It's basically one great, simplistic riff, another cool (but not as majestic) one, and a blues solo.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: PROGMAN
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 16:05
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I wonder what Ozzy would say if someone asked him or the rest of Sabbath if they were Prog ------------- CYMRU AM BYTH 
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Posted By: PROGMAN
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 16:08
I'd like to see Sabbath in as well, but we must accept the decision made, Ozzy would probably swear his guts out if he saw them here ------------- CYMRU AM BYTH
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Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 16:19
NO !! Obvioulsy not !! "War Pigs" IS a prog song, it has tempo changes and a prog feeling, just listen to the amazing istrumental part, and you'll realise that song IS prog ...
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 16:32
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^ I listened to it and played it countless times. Still I don't think it's prog. Tempo changes don't make a prog song (IMO, as always).
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Tristan Mulders
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 18:48
Still not thinking about a topic or something else to let people know what bands are rejected, before they decide to post about that band???  Would save us a lot of time  ------------- Interested in my reviews? You can find them http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=784 - HERE "...He will search until He's found a Way to take the Days..." |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: May 20 2006 at 18:53
Not sure it would...wouldn't every trjection just start far morre "outreaged" threads? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: WaywardSon
Date Posted: May 22 2006 at 09:38
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I think in the future Black Sabbath will have to be at least considered Prog Related.
Apart from being the pioneers of heavy metal they have put the metal into Prog Metal .
Some stuff on Never say Die is quite progressive like the song Airdance.
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Posted By: PROGMAN
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 06:46
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They'll probably get terminated in the next collaborator pool ------------- CYMRU AM BYTH
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 12:37
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I agree with putting Sabbath to Prog-Related actually. SBS, Sabotage, Technical Ecstacy and Never Say Die are quite proggy albums in their discography, and so can be called Master Of Reality too.
I'm not the one making a decision though, and I wasn't there during their Prog-Metal addition.
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 13:06
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My personal opinion on Black Sabbath being progressive: ABSOLUTELY NOT! I'm not going to dispute Sabbath was innovative and important to developing musical genres we know today. This however does not make a band progressive. Should we add Miles Davis because his type of jazz was smoother and slower that lead to a new division of jazz?
About Proto-Prog Metal
I don't think such a thing really exists, but with few exceptions. There are metal bands that have influences on progressive metal bands that's for sure, but I don't think many were the reason for the development of progressive metal. Metallica, Megadeth, and Iron Maiden would be possible exceptions to this. Those three bands were actually making music with a progressive element. Look at Metallica's epic instrumental tracks, look at Megadeth's virtuosity (from all members), and look at Maiden's variant career. Black Sabbath career didn't have epic instrumental tracks, didn't have virtuoso musicians, and didn't have a very variant career. Not everything Sabbath did was the same, but nothing really broke away from the original formula.
We need Mike's genre by album classification to sort out a mess like proto-prog metal. We could say an album like The World Needs a Hero or Youthanasia by Megadeth is proto-prog metal, but we definatley can't say that about Killing Is My Buisness. -------------  
"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 13:35
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^ if such a thing as proto-prog-metal exists, Black Sabbath don't qualify for it. At the very most they are proto-metal ... prog metal came to be in the 80s, and a typical proto-prog-metal album could be Master of Puppets ...
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 14:07
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I don't know, Superztar and Symptom Of The Universe from the Sabotage album seem like a definition of Progressive Metal atmospheres and fundamentels a decade before it was actually born!
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 16:09
We agree. Rather than Master of Puppets, I see ...And Justice For All as the definition of Proto-Prog Metal. There's a lot of contrast in guitar tones, keys, composing. If only there was a bassist. -------------
"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 16:15
Jody agrees with you ... but I still think that Master of Puppets is a better candidate for the title of "THE proto-prog-metal album". The most convincing reason: It came first!
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 16:18
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I wouldn't say vitruosity is some kind of a Progressive Music only trait. If that was the case, we would all be members of Shred Archives.
I consider Sabbath to be a more progressive group than either Metallica, Megadeth or Maiden, and by that I do not mean their innovation - rather the sound itself.
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: Minkia
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 16:27
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Hey Abstrakt, are you sure that's Frank Zappa (next to Hendrix) and not Frank Marino? ------------- RELIGION IS HATE, RELIGION IS FEAR, RELIGION IS WAR,RELIGION IS RAPE, RELIGION'S OBSCENE,RELIGION'S A WHORE |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 16:31
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Let's assume for a second that Black Sabbath were proto-prog-metal on these albums. Then, almost 10 years later, prog metal came to be. What happened in between? There must have been bands that built upon the style of those albums ... are they also prog metal, or proto-prog metal?
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 16:51
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Don't ask me, there's a huge gap between my perception of early 70's music and late 80's metal! There must have been groups who followed Sabbath's new direction at the time, although they perhaps had no popularity because of the new tendencies of music at the time. Actually, I have no idea and I don't see how it matters and, on top of that, I'm off to bed.
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 17:00
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fair enough - maybe someone else knows what happened between Sabbath Bloody Sabbath and master of Puppets.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 17:09
Sabotage happened between SBS and MoP.
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 17:12
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I'm a total Black Sabbath noob ... but I listened to most key tracks. And I played War Pigs on the GuitarPort for like 100 times. BTW: Listening right now to War Pigs, covered by the Hayseed Dixies. Howdy! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 17:56
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Iron Maiden happened inbetween Sabbath and Master of Puppets. When I look for a band that truly lead to the direct development on heavy metal it's Iron Maiden. Black Sabbath was an influence for metal, but I never considered them to play metal. Iron Maiden and Judas Priest took Sabbath's heavy hard rock combined it with aggressive parts and thus became heavy metal. -------------
"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 18:08
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^ So if you think that Sabbath are Proto Prog Metal, wouldn't that make Iron Maiden Prog Metal?
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Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: May 23 2006 at 19:29
I don't think Sabbath is proto prog metal. I do think that Maiden is proto prog metal. If we have classification by genre, I would say X Factor is a prog metal album. -------------
"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 09:00
  As much as I love BS and admit they had their proggy moments, I wouldn't put them in any "Proto-Prog-Metal" category. I absolutely agree about the mighty "Master of Puppets", and possibly also about its predecessor, "Ride the Lightning". And what about Priest's "Sad Wings of Destiny"?
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Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 09:07
| Sabbath isn't METAL, it's ROCK! |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 09:19
Wait, if you aren't familiar with Black Sabbath's discography, why are you the one most persistant and confident in this argument? Perhaps it wouldn't be wrong for you to get your hands on Sabbath Bloody Sabbath and Sabotage and see it for yourself, no?
You simply should not judge Black Sabbath by Paranoid, Iron Man or War Pigs or whatever other popular songs they have. For a comparison, it's like if you asked me if I thought Yes and Genesis were worthy of inclusion in PA and I would say "Are them the bands that played "I Can't Dance" and "Owner Of A Lonely Heart"? I played these on my keyboard, they definitely aren't prog, NO WAY!" A stupid example, but you should have understood what I mean by now.
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 09:29
I think that that album might qualify as "Proto-Prog-Power-Metal" ... ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 09:37
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Proto-Cheese Metal.
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 11:15
You mean "Milk-Metal"? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: May 25 2006 at 12:16
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------------- sig |
Posted By: PROGMAN
Date Posted: May 26 2006 at 05:21
It's Bat metal silly
You know the headless bat ------------- CYMRU AM BYTH
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