A problem with prog sub-genres and styles
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Topic: A problem with prog sub-genres and styles
Posted By: Zavgorodny
Subject: A problem with prog sub-genres and styles
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 16:26
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Problem. Typical & commonly used definitions of prog music sub-genres and sub-styles are useless.
Why.
Because you get nothing good if you use geographical (Canterbury, Italian), time-based (proto-, neo-) and stylistic (symphonic, metal) criteria simultaneously.
Or am I the only one who understands it? ------------- yes, I know, my English is far from perfect. I comfortable with it. |
Replies:
Posted By: Zavgorodny
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 16:27
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if you wonder, my vote is 'Yes' ------------- yes, I know, my English is far from perfect. I comfortable with it. |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 16:35
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in the tapestry that is prog rock, you must have some kind of guide, especially if you're a beginner! (even if you're an experienced progger). -------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: Catholic Flame
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 17:12
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I voted yes. They are just artificial pigeonholes. I doubt that any artist decides “I’m going to do neo prog but I’m not touching symphonic prog with a 10 foot pole.” Creating these artificial pigeonholes may make the bands easier to talk about but it pretends that bands don’t use a myriad of influences and styles. And shouldn’t “progressive” groups use a lot of different ideas? ------------- “Great things are not accomplished by those who yield to trends and fads and popular opinion.” ~Jack Kerouac |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 17:22
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Of cause their usefull, without them PA would be totaly chaotic when defining the predominant sound of a band. |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 17:38
I'd say that they were ONLY useful here. Thanks to this site (and a lot of time spent reading by me) I've found plenty of bands I love who I'd otherwise never have heard of. I discovered one of my favourites - Magma - through clicking on the "Zeuhl" subgenre, wondering just what the hell it was.  but then again, I don't sit down and decide to listen to Zeuhl because there's a substantial difference between every band I listen to. I might sit down and decide to listen to Weidorje. It's a category and nothing more - if you get offended because of a perceived miscategorisation then I'd start to worry about where your musical taste really comes from.  |
Posted By: dagrush
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 17:41
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Useful, but should be cut down upon. Italian symphonic isn't overly different from regular symphonic, aside from that it's generally sung in Italian. Proto-prog pretty much is prog related. I'm not counting Canterbury scene though. It started off in one area, but it's all over the place now and seems distinct enough to warrant its own subgenre (usually). Anyway, to sum it up... mostly useful. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/omgwtfdagrush/"> 
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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 18:14
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I think they're useful. It's the best way to organize artists and not get lost in a huge prog genre, that gasps all from post rock to death metal. That would be a horrible mess, making it nearly impossible to find similar artists, and establish what they don't like.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 19:00
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They are very useful IMO. I think of it as a guide, "if you like this band then you'll probably will like this band since thay make the same style of music" And as others said. If there wasn't any genre then It'll be a big mess. Univers zero and Sigur Ros aren't the same in any way and this needs to be said and explained so people could understand their styles and kind of music more. There are many good things about putting bands in sub-genres. So I'll vote for no. ------------- 
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Posted By: Marc Baum
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 19:33
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On the platform it's highly important and very useful. Think about a site like this without these typical subgenre-definitions, it would get lost in chaotic dimensions. If you go on the music by a artist/band itself, it's somehow just very unfocused to put the band with their music in a specific bag. One good example is the band Riverside: It's good that they are named under the banner "prog metal", since there are definitely some clear metal parts in their music and their style has that metallic edge, with which non-metal listeners could have problems with. But if you go nearer on the music, you will soon recognize that they just have very little in common with metal. Their style can at best be described as a mix of psychedelic/space rock elements, hints of prog metal and art rock. IMO they should be thrown in the "art rock" bag, but that could bring on confusions with many people. Indeedly they are a band where the subgenre definition shouldn't get that serious influence on the listener's foreshadowed expection about the music. Here it works not really well, but there are also other bands where such problems come to place. But overall, it's helpful all the way. Any one needs a idea what to expect about the artist/group's musical direction. ------------- "All you need to do is sit back, and acquire the taste." - GENTLE GIANT |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 19:48
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I think they are useful. Granted you get alot of debates on this forum about them and what groups belong where, but they're needed as a guide esp for beginners. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Tomodachi
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 19:55
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I think that in every field of human knowledge categories are no more than conventions to organize things and give a simple comprehension of them, because human mind longs for simplicity - in this sense I think they are useful and necessary. In other words, I find useful to know under which category is classified a band that I don't know yet, although I know I will find in that band some particular elements that make it unique and different from other bands in the same category. ------------- 
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Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 20:02
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Subgenres are very useful as terms of communication and very brief and rough description of music.
I also find it very useful to know whether restaurant I am going to for the first time is French or Italian or Japanese or Indian or Chinese or whatever else cuisine, on top of the information that food is good there...
------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 21:51
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It's useful if you want to get into a prog sub-genre...... to know how it is.
But the music is first.
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Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 21:52
I agree.
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sleeper wrote:Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May 12 2006 at 22:06
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None are useful. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 13 2006 at 00:32
Just let me ask you a couple of questions:
Canterbury is a Region, but also defines a special and unique style older than anything we know as Progressive Rock, has a unique blend of Jazz, Psychedelia and Rock, the name is coincident with a region only because it was born there.
Italian Symphonic: I agree that today it is useless, because there are Symphonic bands all around the world and despite their unique qualities, this is not enough to justify a sub-genre, our team is planning to absorb it into Symphonic. But in the very early 70's the only nation that really could step proudly in froint of UK when talking about Progressive Rock was Italy.
Proto Prog: Sorry, but if you don't get the importance of Proto Prog you don't understand the evolution of Progressive Rock, this is the direct link between Psychedelia and Progressive Rock, yet not 100% Prog, but far more advanced than every other musical style.
Neo Prog: If you believe that Neo Prog only represents a period in time, you're even more lost than I thought, the difference between Symphonic and Neo Prog is clear in most of the cases, the style is still complex and clearly Prog, but it accepts more mainstream influences due to the birth of New Wave and Punk, many people that love Symphonic hate Neo Prog, I used to be one of those, but now I love bands as Fish Marillion, Pendragon, IQ, Magenta, etc.
Prog Metal: If you don't understand why Prog Metal is so different to almost any Progressive Sub-Genre, then better forget about Prog and if you can find the difference between Thordendal's (Fredrik Sopecoial Defects jazzuy sound and Pain of Salvation's almost Gothic Symphonic style, well, you have some hearing problems.
No, you're not the only one, there are a couple more who I believe are wrong.
Please man, be real......Sub-genres exist not only here, but anywhere, accept them because they will stay. Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: May 13 2006 at 03:19
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As long as it doesn't end up being a prison, I think using subgenres is definitely useful - exactly for the same reasons that Ivan has so clearly explained in the above message.
Prog is such a varied, sprawling phenomenon that someone new to the genre would not be capable of making heads or tails of it without a sort of guide. Even those who are more familiar with the genre (as in my case) may be familiar with some subgenres, but not with others, and therefore need some sort of guidance in getting acquainted with new bands or artists. Lumping everything in one big mess under the heading of "prog" (as some sites I know do) only results in confusion.
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Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: May 13 2006 at 05:34
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Yes!
Artists/Bands can make diffrent genres
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Posted By: terramystic
Date Posted: May 13 2006 at 14:03
| Useful. |
Posted By: Rorro
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 13:06
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I think he is not trying to say that there shouldn't be categories, he is saying that prog categories should be organized better in his point of view. He is trying to ask if you like the categories as they are now, or if it should be different categories, for example only time-bassed categories, or only geographyical cattegories, but not both at the same time. In my opinion categories are good by now, i would only eliminate the Italian Symphonic category as Ivan proposed, it's true that Italian Symphonic groups have their own unicque sound that differences them from the rest of the Symphonic scene, but it is still symphonic prog, italian symphonic is kind of a subcategory of symphonic, like french IMO. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 16:24
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Like anything, categorisation is useful up to a point, after which it simply becomes confusing.
I believe that the vast and ever-growing numbers of categories are getting a bit too much for many, and the definitions require careful thought, since some are utter nonsense when you think about them. But that is not to say that all categories are nonsense, as has been pointed out a few times here - they are useful handles for those exploring the genre. It would just be better, in my opinion, if some of those handles bore a little more accuracy in terms of the musical styles. Of course you'll never get it 100%, but there's no harm in making improvements - and if that means "cutting out the brambles", then that's all the better. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 18:39
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It;s amazing to see 37 "no" votes (at time of posting) against just seven "yes" votes, yet most of the responses are saying they agree......... are the "NO" voters a timid bunch?
I voted "NO" Boxes are not useful, I own albums that could at varying points fit into a dozen or more subgenres, yet the fans of 11 probably wont get to hear them because they are billed as the "wrong" sub genre! Boxes are only good for putting shoes in, or maybe small trinkets.............or taking a cat to the vet.......you get the idea! As far as it helping to "analyse" the music...........sheeesh! get some daylight! Music is the expressiion of emotion, it is sometihng to be FELT not analysed. It is to stir, or rowse, or make you laugh or dance, it can make you cry, or mourn, it makes you FEEL................if you analyse it you take away it's essence and beauty, it is reducing a living being into an lab experiment. and that my friends is a very sad way to listen to music!  it's been a long day!
P-C |
Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 19:19
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For me, i just listen what I like, then I search the information of the band.. man, people have to "listen" to music... ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg"> 
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Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 21:01
quoted for truth. I heard most people rejecting certain bands because of their categorization and that's sad -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 22:31
Rorro wrote:
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 15 2006 at 22:37
Hey Prog Chick, did you tread the question?
Youhave voted that Sub-Genres are NOT UNUSEFUL in other words yoiu voted that SUB-GENRES ARE USEFUL.
Progressive Rock as almost no other genre is to feel, but also to understand, that's why most people say they hated a determined album but after listening it 100 times or 10 years they love it.
POP is just to feel and shake your booty, but Prog is a combination of intelect and emotion, we care about it, we analyze the influences, the sounds the timming, at least those of us who really care.
This poll was a cheap trick of http://www.progarchives.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=7928&FID=42 - Zavgorodny (the 21 posts noob who is against the sub-genres and wants to change in a couple of days what it took us years to build, so don't blame us) and created this Poll trying to make all people vote that Sub-genres are worth nothing.
But it's hard to trick progheads, because we're used to combine feelings and understanding, we explore the posibilities and reach a conclusion.
But most people except you noticed the the trick, that's why the votes are 39 to 7, but don't worry lets leave it 38 to 8 being that you were surprised.
 Iván -------------
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 16 2006 at 02:56
One of the great things about Prog music is that you can analyse it. There are people that only want emotional responses from music - and that's fine. However, there are also those of us that are so overwhelmed by the emotional responses that music produces that we want to find out how it does it - in many cases because there are many members here who are musicians who would like to put some of that emotion into their own music. Getting intense feelings out of music is great. Understanding the triggers in the music itself through analysis can take the listener up several levels of emotional intensity. Personally I get as much of rush when a piece of music sets the hairs on the back of my neck on edge as I do when I discover the nifty technique that a band has used ro achieve that. But I agree heartily with the sentiment that boxes are only good for putting things in - and if you put music in a box, it gets muffled and you can't hear it properly. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: May 16 2006 at 03:20
 It's not hard to trick me so late at night!!!
(obviously!!!) I still stand by what I said tho........... over analysis is not good for music, To feel and "shake your booty" well thats no bad thing? All this "my music is cleverer than your music" stuff, and analysis and "our fans are more intellectual/serious than your fans" stuff is just little boys in the woods seeing who can pee highest up the tree.......... sometimes "shaking you booty" is what you need to do! I like what cert1fied said "if you out music in boxes the souns gets muffled" 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 16 2006 at 15:35
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: May 17 2006 at 05:19
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I must admit I feel underwhelmed rather than overwhelmed by most of the classifications...
I don't think I over analyse anything - I can go far deeper if you'd like. On the contrary, I feel that most people don't spend enough time analysing music that is simply made to be analysed as well as enjoyed in its own right. ...and I'd like to see booty shaking to some of the more complex Prog Rock - especially in 13/8... ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Kord
Date Posted: June 10 2006 at 11:36
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I voted No...they are useful ------------- [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5f/Genesis_Group.jpg" border"> |