I am all for the 2nd ammendment. Every american has a right to protect him/her- self.

Gun laws only take weapons away from the law abiding good guys. The bad guys don't obey the law and will find guns illegally.

Paradox wrote: What is your opinion on this fundamental constitutional right? If you ammend the bill to remove this right, a ship load of english troops will arrive on your doorstep. do you really want that? Discuss.

It isn't just this amendment but if you get around one right how soon will they all fall?  The left wing broaches this one to get it removed the right goes after free speech and search and seizure.  Either way all Constituional rights need to be protected.  As for guns themselves I don't own one but what scares me more is George Bush or John Kerry owning all of them.

You should be able to have firearms, but nothing above what is reasonable. Flamethrowers, bazookas, machine guns, uzis, and the like are right out. I really don't mess with guns anyway, and I don't have problems with criminals with guns, so...yeah. I guess it's okay to have a gun or two, if you must have one.

(save me Reed Lover!...succumbing...to...republican...values......ackk.... ......)

penguindf12 wrote: You should be able to have firearms, but nothing above what is reasonable. Flamethrowers, bazookas, machine guns, uzis, and the like are right out. I really don't mess with guns anyway, and I don't have problems with criminals with guns, so...yeah. I guess it's okay to have a gun or two, if you must have one. (save me Reed Lover!...succumbing...to...republican...values......ackk.... ......)

You mean you would object to my stockpile of AK-47's?You never know when I might have to use one on a ferocious possum here in the harsh wilderness of chicagoland.

With ownership, comes responsibility.

The reason for the 2nd amendment is to allow civilians to form a militia if the government became a dictatorship. Whoever controls the military could then control the populace.

Sure, the 2nd amendment gets taken to extremes. Many people who own guns, shouldn't be allowed to and many types of weapons should not be privately owned.

Personally, I'd rather have weapons only in the hands of those who are sworn to protect....

danbo wrote: With ownership, comes responsibility. The reason for the 2nd amendment is to allow civilians to form a militia if the government became a dictatorship. However controls the military could then control the populace. Sure, the 2nd amendment gets taken to extremes. Many people who own guns, shouldn't be allowed to and many types of weapons should not be privately owned. Personally, I'd rather have weapons only in the hands of those who are sworn to protect....

Protect what and whom me wonders.  If worse came to worse it wouldn't be me or mine I'm thinkin'. 

I agree that it doesn't really matter.. those who want to kill will find a gun somewhere... or use other methods.. its not the vehicle we should be questioning, but the lack of responsibility that we feel towards each other.

Emidar.. that 12 year old could just as easily of picked up a kitchen knife and plunged it thru her mother's heart... it would have had the same effect.

Its why I have such a problem with the "Bowling for Columbine" crap that Michael Moore put out.  Instead of using controversy to play up whether Walmart should be selling bullits or whether or not Charleston Heston is senile... he should of been dealing with the shooters upbringing... where the heck their parents where.. and maybe hold them a little more responsible for what eventually happened.  Cause I understand those kids had already been in trouble a few times and the parents did nothing...

Well said Danbo and Threefates

Simply Said: "Guns don't kill people. People kill people"

and I'm all about simple(ton)

threefates wrote: I agree that it doesn't really matter.. those who want to kill will find a gun somewhere... or use other methods.. its not the vehicle we should be questioning, but the lack of responsibility that we feel towards each other. Emidar.. that 12 year old could just as easily of picked up a kitchen knife and plunged it thru her mother's heart... it would have had the same effect. Its why I have such a problem with the "Bowling for Columbine" crap that Michael Moore put out.  Instead of using controversy to play up whether Walmart should be selling bullits or whether or not Charleston Heston is senile... he should of been dealing with the shooters upbringing... where the heck their parents where.. and maybe hold them a little more responsible for what eventually happened.  Cause I understand those kids had already been in trouble a few times and the parents did nothing...

I agree with almost all of that except one thing.  Even the most Selfless, caring  parent can have a kid snap.  It happens all the time. I can understand a real neglectful situation but what about the parents that work hard, do all the "right" things and still their child flips out like that. What are they being held responsible for?  For all of our knowledge we don't know why that happens. Is it psychological? If the child is seeing a doctor for any illness or anger problems what are the parents supposed to do?  sociological? Is this the environment provided at home or school?  Should not the educators also be held responsible?   Or just a momentary lapse of reason?  Who then is responsible?  Taking the guns away as you said is not going to change this scenario but I can't see making an already responsible parent more responsible. You might has well said they committed the act.   In the end we are never really safe from anything not even our own families.  No government no church or any other organization will change that fact.

You are correct. Altough I don't feel the parents were acting responsibly in more than 90% of these types of cases. Sometimes sh*t just happens. Who is to blame? Sometimes it can't be pinned anywhere. I think we run in circles looking for the one to blame it on. As long as we keep mass-producing kids without putting enough effort into the ones we already have, we will never run out of cases like these. If you expect the schools or government to teach your children.....

It's so screwed up that you have to have a license to drive, go to school to get a degree, even pass a course to cut hair, but any idiot can have a kid. Scary! (and pathetic)  

threefates wrote:   Emidar.. that 12 year old could just as easily of picked up a kitchen knife and plunged it thru her mother's heart... it would have had the same effect.

What a pathetic statement 3'. Let's give kids hand grenades then, after all, they could just as easily make molatoff cocktails if they wanted. Why not save them the trouble?

As for "guns don't kill people, people do", it's like saying cigarettes don't kill you, smoking them does. Cigarettes are made to smoke, handguns to kill people. It doesn't take much imagination to work out why America has such a gun crime problem.

Have a good look at the statistics. Let's put it like this shall we, in the last 24 years 50 police officers have been killed in Britain in the line of duty. How many of their American collegues have been shot in the last 24 years? Danbo, I'd be surprised if you told me it was less, even taking the population difference into account (UK= +/- 60,000,000). The whole gun culture is allien to me, thank god, and I wouldn't thank you for it.

Whenever Americans start talking about their right to bare arms, most of us Brits start thinking "paranoid survivalist redneck ultrarightwing gun toting KKK psychopath", but I suppose it's easy for us to judge, our neighbours don't own guns either so we don't feel the need to arm ourselves. I think you guys may have got your chickens confused with your eggs, and the order in which they come. 

Stop throw generalized stones, they hurt.

I believe I said guns should only be in the hands of those sworn to protect. Please don't think that every American is a "survivalist redneck gun toting KKK pychopath." That is totally absurd.

As in any political issue, there are extremes. Usually those in the extreme are a minority, who happen to get the majority of media coverage. Most American streets are pretty safe. Some much safer then in the past. When you consolidate the days happenings in a country that covers hundreds of thousands of square miles with a population of nearly 300 million people into half hour news segments, it appears to be a very violent place.

I have had fellow officers shot at, one killed and a few who had to pull the trigger themselves. I would love to see guns disappear. I wish I had to find a different profession because mine is no longer necessary. However, I live in the here and now and deal with it.

Just for info: recovered weapons that are not evidence, are destroyed.

danbo wrote: Stop throw generalized stones, they hurt. I believe I said guns should only be in the hands of those sworn to protect. Please don't think that every American is a That is totally absurd. As in any political issue, there are extremes. Usually those in the extreme are a minority, who happen to get the majority of media coverage. Most American streets are pretty safe. Some much safer then in the past. When you consolidate the days happenings in a country that covers hundreds of thousands of square miles with a population of nearly 300 million people into half hour news segments, it appears to be a very violent place. I have had fellow officers shot at, one killed and a few who had to pull the trigger themselves. I would love to see guns disappear. I wish I had to find a different profession because mine is no longer necessary. However, I live in the here and now and deal with it. Just for info: recovered weapons that are not evidence, are destroyed.

Danbo man, sorry if you misunderstood me, I wasn't aiming stones at you, and agree that guns should not be available to the general public. I know full well that all Americans are not "survivalist redneck gun toting KKK pychopath." Thats just the way it appears to people who manage to live their entire lives without ever seeing a hand gun except for in films or on TV. Seeing you all calmly debating the rights of every knuckle dragging individual in Hicksville to own enough firepower to take out a small primary school scares me. The responsible among us should be prepared to do without guns so that the irresponsible can't own them either.

p.s. it's only my opinion, what do I know anyway?

I agree, I am not defending the "knuckle draggers."

Here's some stats. Just for interest, not a stone being thrown.

High Gun Ownership Countries					Low Gun Ownership Countries
Country	Suicide	Homicide	Total*	Country		Suicide	Homicide	Total*
Switzerland	21.4	2.7	24.1	Denmark		22.3	4.9	27.2
U.S.	11.6	7.4	19.0	France		20.8	1.1	21.9
Israel	6.5	1.4	7.9	Japan**		16.7	0.6	17.3

* The figures listed in the table are the rates per 100,000 people.
** Suicide figures for Japan also include many homicides.
Source for table: U.S. figures for 1996 are taken from the Statistical Abstract of the U.S. and FBI Uniform Crime Reports. The rest of the table is taken from the UN 1996 Demographic Yearbook (1998), cited at http://www.haciendapub.com/stolinsky.html - http://www.haciendapub.com/stolinsky.html .

emdiar wrote: threefates wrote: Emidar.. that 12 year old could just as easily of picked up a kitchen knife and plunged it thru her mother's heart... it would have had the same effect. What a pathetic statement 3'. Let's give kids hand grenades then, after all, they could just as easily make molatoff cocktails if they wanted. Why not save them the trouble?

Sorry but I don't get the connection emidar... we don't generally have molatoff cocktails in our kitchens.. but a kitchen knife is in the home of nearly every family... not just in America either... What I was saying, is that if someone wants to kill, the vehicle they use is unimportant.  I don't see how that is pathetic.

emdiar wrote: As for "guns don't kill people, people do", it's like saying cigarettes don't kill you, smoking them does. Cigarettes are made to smoke, handguns to kill people.

Don't get this logic either.  Drugs are natural or created to help people, yet more people die of drug related incidents in this country, than by guns...a year.  Cigarettes may be made to smoke, but if its your choice to smoke them knowing full well the effects... then the responsibility is not on the cigarettes...

And that gun-toting KKK psyhcopath issue.. I'm sure Danbo has covered...

I actually think you should be able to own guns only if you are:

1. Smart enough to handle one (and understand them)

2. Going to store them in a locked, hidden safe

3. Using a safety

4. Obeying the laws, etc.

emdiar wrote: Seeing you all calmly debating the rights of every knuckle dragging individual in Hicksville to own enough firepower to take out a small primary school scares me.

See, this is sort of worrisome also... because (and I'm sure Danbo can correct me on this if I'm wrong)... most of the gun committed crimes in this country are not perpetrated by legal gun owners... but by guns that were stolen, or purchased on the black market. There is a pretty effective process involved in buying a gun.  I'm sure there are a few cracks in the system, but basically its a good process and a bit time consuming.  Not your usual criminals way to get a gun... 

And I don't think we're calmly debating the issue of everyone owning a gun, however,its very unfortunate that in some areas here its a necessity.

danbo wrote: I agree, I am not defending the "knuckle draggers."   Here's some stats. Just for interest, not a stone being thrown. High Gun Ownership Countries Low Gun Ownership Countries Country Suicide Homicide Total* Country Suicide Homicide Total* Switzerland 21.4 2.7 24.1 Denmark 22.3 4.9 27.2 U.S. 11.6 7.4 19.0 France 20.8 1.1 21.9 Israel 6.5 1.4 7.9 Japan** 16.7 0.6 17.3 * The figures listed in the table are the rates per 100,000 people. ** Suicide figures for Japan also include many homicides. Source for table: U.S. figures for 1996 are taken from the Statistical Abstract of the U.S. and FBI Uniform Crime Reports. The rest of the table is taken from the UN 1996 Demographic Yearbook (1998), cited at http://www.haciendapub.com/stolinsky.html - http://www.haciendapub.com/stolinsky.html .

and I bet if you broke these figures down by state and chose Texas...which if I remember right has the highest gun/household rate you'll find the homicide rate much lower......

reason: would be breaking and entry type of goons are likely to get shot in Texas. It has been several years when I had heard the report but I'll bet that is the case and even though the source wasn't perhaps the most newsworthy(MANCOW-A Chicago based Howard Stern) it sounded like in this particular incident he was right on. 

Well..you living in Europe shouldn't worry what we in america want as far as guns go or not...

I don't concern myself about european issues unless it somehow could affect me or my fellow americans.

The last time I looked there's an ocean seperating us so do not concern yourself with american affairs

gdub411 wrote: Well..you living in Europe shouldn't worry what we in america want as far as guns go or not... I don't concern myself about european issues unless it somehow could affect me or my fellow americans. The last time I looked there's an ocean seperating us so do not concern yourself with american affairs

HA HA HA, are you telling me to stay out of other nations affairs? God I'm so tempted.............no, leave it em!

emdiar wrote: gdub411 wrote: Well..you living in Europe shouldn't worry what we in america want as far as guns go or not... I don't concern myself about european issues unless it somehow could affect me or my fellow americans. The last time I looked there's an ocean seperating us so do not concern yourself with american affairs   HA HA HA, are you telling me to stay out of other nations affairs? God I'm so tempted.............no, leave it em!

no Emidar...just asking-Why do you care when it is so far away?

please don't get on a soapbox and start asking if I care about the Aids epidemic in Africa and such either. The debate about gun laws and millions of people dieing are ALOT different

What a STUPID, incendiary topic for a music forum!

The person who started this one, I bet, likes to plant the minefield, then sit back and watch the "fun" & fireworks....

Nice poisoned little atmosphere you've got going here, "Paradox." Do you p*ss in your own well, and sh*t in your own bed, too?

This place just gets worse -- I'm well quit of it.

ahh Peter, ...Every board you go on eventually you start to see the differences in opinion... its just nature.

If you think this place is bad.. you should try out the Official Pink Floyd forum... now that place is just downright scarey....

To Emidar:  I don't think you hate Americans... And I understand your dislike of guns.  I actually hate them myself.. .hope to never be in close contact with one for any reason...  I'm just saying that banning guns is like taking aspirin for a headache... it ain't the cure, and most the time.. it doesn't do any good....

Sort of like drugs... Pot is illegal and banned here.  Do you think any of those who smoke, smoke it any less because of that....Do you think its any harder to get ??

Peter Rideout wrote: What a STUPID, incendiary topic for a music forum! The person who started this one, I bet, likes to plant the minefield, then sit back and watch the "fun" & fireworks.... Nice poisoned little atmosphere you've got going here, "Paradox." Do you p*ss in your own well, and sh*t in your own bed, too? This place just gets worse -- I'm well quit of it.

Mr. Rideout

First of all I have read your outstanding reviews and I think they are informative and helpful.  I hope to continue reading them for a long time to come. I am just returning to Progressive music and there is a lot I have missed and you taking the time to post your reviews is very kind.

Having said that:

Did you read this forum title?  Discussions NOT related to music

I am relatively new here and I can tell already the most of old members seem to think that nothing should be discussed except music even in a topic that says it is not about music. I think if you click on the topic you get what you clicked for. It says Gun Control and yet you grace us with your comments that we are bunch of idiots for talking about it. Sure we could find a forum to discuss that and then another one to discuss something else and then spend the rest of our days searching and posting just to make sure we find the right forum for our comments.

 I ask you a question of you, Are the people who comment on this forum one dimensional? We are not supposed to enjoy the camaraderie we have here by discussing more than just progressive rock music? It is only natural as people get to know each other is to want to know more.  On this forum the natural question is "Well if you think that way about music what do think about this other subject".  

I am sorry to disagree with you on this one but if you want music only stay in the upper half of the discussion topics and stay out of this one. I like learning about other people and cultures even if I don't agree with them.  I think there are others here that feel the same and in the course of this discussion yours was the only one that was insulting. 

As for the topic, I think it is absolutely fascinating that we have two separate and divided cultures on this subject.

First, thank you for the kind words re my reviews, Garion -- sincerely appreciated. I plan to write many more.

Secondly, re "discussions not related to music, " I get the point, and it is a very good/valid point, indeed. (same goes for your response, 3F)

I guess that I'm a bit of a dreamer, maybe too sensitive, and would like people to be "nicer"/ more considerate of others (not that I always am, but I try to be), and that this type of wide-open forum is really not the thing for me. Others have thicker skins, and can more easily separate the head and the heart....

(Still, I do belive that some topics are virual "booby traps," posted merely to inflame. Reading them brings me down -- but like a car accident, or Holocaust documentary, I just can't seem to look away.)

I'm sure all forums go this way eventually, as 3F implied, but I have to be honest with myself, conclude that it's really not the place for me (too easy to hurt/anger faceless strangers, especially when real names are not even used), and quit, with no ill will toward those who elect to stay. (BTW, when I don't post here, my review output goes up, and that's why I joined originally anyway -- a creative outlet, & means to share a love of good music....)

All the best to all, & sorry if I sounded intolerant of adult discussion, as above.

See you in the reviews, & happy listening,

Sincerely,

Peter Rideout

Peter Rideout wrote: First, thank you for the kind words re my reviews, Garion -- sincerely appreciated. I plan to write many more. Secondly, re "discussions not related to music, " I get the point, and it is a very good/valid point, indeed. (same goes for your response, 3F) I guess that I'm a bit of a dreamer, maybe too sensitive, and would like people to be "nicer"/ more considerate of others (not that I always am, but I try to be), and that this type of wide-open forum is really not the thing for me. Others have thicker skins, and can more easily separate the head and the heart.... (Still, I do belive that some topics are virual "booby traps," posted merely to inflame. Reading them brings me down -- but like a car accident, or Holocaust documentary, I just can't seem to look away.) I'm sure all forums go this way eventually, as 3F implied, but I have to be honest with myself, conclude that it's really not the place for me (too easy to hurt/anger faceless strangers, especially when real names are not even used), and quit, with no ill will toward those who elect to stay. (BTW, when I don't post here, my review output goes up, and that's why I joined originally anyway -- a creative outlet, & means to share a love of good music....) All the best to all, & sorry if I sounded intolerant of adult discussion, as above. See you in the reviews, & happy listening, Sincerely, Peter Rideout

Oh Peter.

Just had to jump in here (I've patiently waited for you to post)

I have to say that if I have been in anyway responsible for you leaving the forum then I am truly sorry. I have read all your reviews and have enjoyed all of them.It was reading the reviews by yourself,Jim and Bob Mcbeath that inspired me to join-in in the first place.It is very easy to get trigger happy with the "post reply" button when one has a few idle hours and inevitably this leads to much ahem wind being broken.

I myself left the forum (rather over-dramatically I might add) because "a little birdy" told me that "me and my like" were putting off people like you ,and
especially you,from using the forum. I am on a family holiday at the moment and the sun and relaxation puts a different perspective on things and I no longer feel particularly angry at the perpetrators of various lyrical snares and honey-traps designed I believe to get me to overstep the mark, antagonise you and others, and get myself chucked off the forum.

There are times when I have been critical of you, but this was genuinely meant to be "banter", maybe a mis-fire, but I never intended to belittle you.

So if I cant persuade you to stop on, please keep the reviews flowing and never lose faith in the music.

^ Thank you very much Reed -- that meant more to me than you might think.

My reasons to leave (as once before) are about 90% personal -- having largely to do with the productive/wise use of time & energy as a family man, and only about 10% "Forum content"-related. Sometimes ugliness or perceived ugliness is the little push I need to re-evaluate my priorities.

Just remember, progfans, there's a human (an individual, not a group, government, or country) behind the post/webname. Throw in some humour every now and then -- the world could use a laugh....

Enough said -- no more melodramatics!

Sincere best wishes to all and the Forums, (Prog Archives ROCKS!)

Peter 

Peter Rideout wrote: I guess that I'm a bit of a dreamer, maybe too sensitive, and would like people to be "nicer"/ more considerate of others (not that I always am, but I try to be), and that this type of wide-open forum is really not the thing for me. Others have thicker skins, and can more easily separate the head and the heart.... (Still, I do belive that some topics are virual "booby traps," posted merely to inflame. Reading them brings me down -- but like a car accident, or Holocaust documentary, I just can't seem to look away.)

Maybe on second thought we do need to be reminded once in a while.  Not a bad thing either. But maybe just a tad toned down?  A lighting bolt can be very upsetting.    Keep coming around sometimes. 

threefates wrote: I don't think I need to be reminded to add humor, Peter...

What do you call male prostitutes in England? Peter Sellers....

Peter, I know you continue to read the forum, even when you do not actively participate, and I look forward to seeing you back. This forum can be compulsive, not to say adicitve, and you are absolutely right to come and go as your real life permits. There are many others who do so, but I would mention Fragile and Hibou in particular, who to me have "got it right". They dip in and out as it suits them, and are entirely (and of course rightly) comfortable doing so. 

I do share your concerns about some of the off topic discussions. I would not want to see the facility to talk about things other than music removed, as I feel it can often help us to get to know each other a little better. I don't feel however that the original topic of this thread served that purpose well, and consequently while I have strong views on it, I have not posted them.

I would not have have any problem with a some guidance being given on subjects which are discouraged. This is after all a music forum, there are plently of other forums to discuss politics, religion etc. for example. I'm not suggesting censorship as such, just guidelines. As with the civility thread, no doubt there would be some lively discussions on these guidelines, but I'm sure a majority concensus could be achieved.

Reed Lover, I though your post above was excellent. I was sorry to read that you were put in a position where you felt you had to leave, it's good to see you back.

There was some discussion in your leaving thread as to whether you had simply reinvented yourself, and I posted a message about that myself. After thinking a bit more about it, I deleted my post, as I realised it was none of my business whether you had or had not done so. The great thing about this forum is that everyone can be who we want to be. If we want to "re-invent" ourselves, we are free to do so (I'm not now suggesting you did!).

I think the difficulty many of us have with the forum is that we do not always appreciate when we write something, that it may not be taken in the way we intended. Even moderate and considerate members can inadvertently come across as abrasive sometimes. I'm sure some of those I am now talking of will be thinking "he doesn't mean me".  The written word removes all the emotion and emphasis of normal conversation. Emoticons can seem a bit childish (for want of a better word), but they are a great way of indicating whether you are joking, serious, etc. Many of us do not use them enough.

Peter always "paints" his posts well, which greatly enhances our ability to get a flavour of his emotions behind what he says. Underlines, italics, bold, colours all help to get the true message across yet, as with this post, most of us tend to put our efforts almost entirely into just the words.

Anyway, back to the music section...

threefates wrote:   most of the gun committed crimes in this country are not perpetrated by legal gun owners... but by guns that were stolen, or purchased on the black market.

I'm sure this is true 3', but this only strengthens my point. A burgler could empty every house in my street and not find a single gun.

Love, M

gdub411 wrote: emdiar wrote: gdub411 wrote: Well..you living in Europe shouldn't worry what we in america want as far as guns go or not... I don't concern myself about european issues unless it somehow could affect me or my fellow americans. The last time I looked there's an ocean seperating us so do not concern yourself with american affairs   HA HA HA, are you telling me to stay out of other nations affairs? God I'm so tempted.............no, leave it em! no Emidar...just asking-Why do you care when it is so far away? please don't get on a soapbox and start asking if I care about the Aids epidemic in Africa and such either. The debate about gun laws and millions of people dieing are ALOT different

This is an emotive topic, and was bound to lead to passionate disagreement. Most of us Europeans find the idea of gun ownership, made so easy, very unsettling. To ask why we care being so far away is a ridiculous question. I for one do care about American issues. Who sits in the Whitehouse effects the whole world in many ways, and US gun laws can go some way to deciding who does sit in the Whitehouse! Arms control is a real political hot potato in the US.

In stereotypical American fashion you just dont want to be disagreed with, and refuse to accept you could be wrong, or at least that the views of others outside your back yard could count for anything.

Blacksword wrote: gdub411 wrote: emdiar wrote: gdub411 wrote: Well..you living in Europe shouldn't worry what we in america want as far as guns go or not... I don't concern myself about european issues unless it somehow could affect me or my fellow americans. The last time I looked there's an ocean seperating us so do not concern yourself with american affairs   HA HA HA, are you telling me to stay out of other nations affairs? God I'm so tempted.............no, leave it em! no Emidar...just asking-Why do you care when it is so far away? please don't get on a soapbox and start asking if I care about the Aids epidemic in Africa and such either. The debate about gun laws and millions of people dieing are ALOT different This is an emotive topic, and was bound to lead to passionate disagreement. Most of us Europeans find the idea of gun ownership, made so easy, very unsettling. To ask why we care being so far away is a ridiculous question. I for one do care about American issues. Who sits in the Whitehouse effects the whole world in many ways, and US gun laws can go some way to deciding who does sit in the Whitehouse! Arms control is a real political hot potato in the US. In stereotypical American fashion you just dont want to be disagreed with, and refuse to accept you could be wrong, or at least that the views of others outside your back yard could count for anything.

Quite frankly...those outside this country don't have a say. Do you get to vote? No. Leave american issues to america. Do you guys have such deer over population problems in your country where it starts killing your motorists in a big way because they unexpectantly step out onto a highway? We do in Wisconsin. We have a solution to that as well. Hunting keeps the deer population in check so they don't become hazardous to american drivers.

There are alot of unsettled lands here still. Look at Montana. A large expanse of land with few people. Perhaps we still feel a need for guns because we are not that far removed from civilizing these lands compared to European terms(a few hundred years compared to thousands) I do not mean to be harsh or rude about these but you guys(europeans) always treat us(americans) as children who are incapable of making important decisions.

Also...while it is laughable to think anyone would have the means or technology to invade our soil..if such a thing would occur..ALOT of us are armed and ready...Bring it on bucky!!!

emdiar wrote: threefates wrote: most of the gun committed crimes in this country are not perpetrated by legal gun owners... but by guns that were stolen, or purchased on the black market. I'm sure this is true 3', but this only strengthens my point. A burgler could empty every house in my street and not find a single gun. Love, M

Actually Emidar... most of the stolen guns aren't coming from burglared households either....

The right to bear arms....

The Constitution has to be put into historical context.When the Constitution was put in place the USA was a far more civilised place.

FUNNY ISNT IT?

All you Yanks defending the right to bear arms but not giving a fig for

FREEDOM OF SPEECH

OLA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What the   is your avatar supposed to be????

Good to speak with you again young Greg!

Peter Rideout wrote: What a STUPID, incendiary topic for a music forum! The person who started this one, I bet, likes to plant the minefield, then sit back and watch the "fun" & fireworks.... Nice poisoned little atmosphere you've got going here, "Paradox." Do you p*ss in your own well, and sh*t in your own bed, too? This place just gets worse -- I'm well quit of it.

I started this post because its something i am interested about. Living in England, where guns are not readily available to everyone, i find the contrast between English and American law fascinating.
It wasn't my intention to "poison" any atmosphere at all. I find your outspoken comments annoyings and pointless. Leave my bladder and bowel problems out of this.
As others have said before me, if you dont want to get upset by the opinions of other people, and dont feel you can rationally debate a subject which many people have a view on, then dont open topics of that nature.   

Reed Lover wrote: What the   is your avatar supposed to be???? Good to speak with you again young Greg!

This was A Larger Bowl's avatar....enuf said

gdub411 wrote: Reed Lover wrote: What the   is your avatar supposed to be???? Good to speak with you again young Greg! This was A Larger Bowl's avatar....enuf said

What first drew you to A Larger Bowel ?

Paradox wrote:

I started this post because its something i am interested about. Living in England, where guns are not readily available to everyone, i find the contrast between English and American law fascinating.
It wasn't my intention to "poison" any atmosphere at all. I find your outspoken comments annoyings and pointless. Leave my bladder and bowel problems out of this.
As others have said before me, if you dont want to get upset by the opinions of other people, and dont feel you can rationally debate a subject which many people have a view on, then dont open topics of that nature.   

[/QUOTE]

Paradox: Consider me duly chastised. Sorry to have misread/annoyed/offended you. (See my later posts, above.)

Welcome, & carry on with the debate!

Easy Livin': Thanks for the understanding & kind words! As you suggested, I guess I will "jump in" and post from time to time, as moved to do so (& as time allows), but I'll avoid such controversial, non-music-related topics, because I'm really not into debating them with strangers on a music (or any) forum (others are, I understand), and I always seem to offend someone when I take offense....

See you on the Reviews page, & GREAT reviews, BTW, Easy!

 So many! You must have lots of spare time, comrade?

Thanks Peter, we make a good mutual admiration society!

Not so much spare time as miss-spent I think. I really should fix that hole in the roof from last year sometime!

Reed Lover said:What first drew you to A Larger Bowel ?

Somehow I missed this question. Mind games sir Reed Lover..mind games

It's supposed to be a half planet...ya think I should change it? I've kind of warmed up to it now.

By the way...did you resolve those issues?

Reed Lover wrote: The right to bear arms.... The Constitution has to be put into historical context.When the Constitution was put in place the USA was a far more civilised place. FUNNY ISNT IT? All you Yanks defending the right to bear arms but not giving a fig for FREEDOM OF SPEECH OLA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Evidently we Yanks really appreciate the "Freedom of Speech" law... afterall you'r still alive, aren't ya ??

gdub411 wrote:    Do you guys have such deer over population problems in your country where it starts killing your motorists in a big way because they unexpectantly step out onto a highway? We do in Wisconsin. )

I've still no wish to enter this debate.

You might find this article interesting though GDUB.

Pretty interesting article. While I lived in the Sierra foothills, my wife, my father in law and one daughter each nailed a deer. They caused quite a bit of damage.

I hit one bear, nicked the hind quarters, no damage to my vehicle or the bear.

I've had numerous close calls, but never actually connected. I was hit by a deer once. It ran into my driver side door. The expression on it's face was very comical. Again, no damage.

Now, a venison stew, ah, I'm salivating... I lived in Upper Michigan for a few years and venison was a staple. Cooked properly, it's very good. Oh yeah, Ted Nugent had a camp in a town called "Rock" smack dab in the middle of the peninsula.   

Firstly, im glad to see you peter i havent read one of your tantelising post for a while and it warms my heart to hear from you (over the top but you get the point). Its also great to see you have returned my Reedlover, i for one am glad your back.

I don't have much to say on the subject of this debate as i have never posessed a gun and will hopefully never feel the need to. I f u really need to protect your self you can buy perfecly good knives or even better pepper spray. I personally own thrrowing knives but never carry them in public (well... sometimes). I would rather see all guns destroyed (thers nothing like a bit of medeival combat (joke). Seriously i would like guns to be banned but i also realise this is not possible.Guns could be banned but so many people own them that is it possible to make sure every gun is returned.

Its human nature to want to kill someone every now and again but its the ability to override these thaughts that makes us rationable and not complete psychos. However some people are complete psychos for watevere reason (parenting, disabliity, peer pressure etc). My point is that the blame for the crime must fall on th eperson who commits it. So guns do kill people but only because people make them. The guns have no choice in the matter and cant give much defense in court. For this reason the responsibilty is for the gun carrier to make sure it isnt misused.

I see taht both sides of the debate present a good argument but im in favour of the less guns the better. Now lets roll a joint and sing along to "leave it" (YES).

Guys nad gals never forget "A real froob knows where his towel is"

IM WELL AWARE OF THE SPELLING MISTAKES AND AM TO LAZY TO CORRECT THEM LOL

Are we saying that deer should be culled because they are inconvenient?

I find hunting for sport to be barbaric in the sense that it I can find no justification for anyone to kill anything senselessly. However as long as the hunting is for food eg not just for a trophy,then I cant really muster a valid argument against it.

I think vegetarians are just as pathetic as hunters.

One must always eat what they hunt, right girls?

Actually, in the US, I'm not sure about other countries, deer and some other native animals are hunted, by PERMIT, in order to keep the populations under control. When there is over-population, many deer (and others) starve due to limited food availability. The permits are issued on the basis of the animal population. Deer are not hunted merely because they are an inconvience.

I totally abhor trophy hunting or fishing.

Do vegetarians taste like salad?

Reed Lover wrote: Are we saying that deer should be culled because they are inconvenient? I find hunting for sport to be barbaric in the sense that it I can find no justification for anyone to kill anything senselessly. However as long as the hunting is for food eg not just for a trophy,then I cant really muster a valid argument against it. I think vegetarians are just as pathetic as hunters.

When a family plows into a deer that stepped out onto the highway at 65 mph and their son or daughter flies through the windshield I will be sure to let them know we couldn't keep the deer population down just because it was an "inconvenience"

All over the midwest we have restaurants adorned with animal trophies on the walls so it is pretty much the norm here. There's a particular pizza place that has this squirrel armed with a bow and arrow up on a shelf...that one is my favorite...that's what I call CLASS.

Actually I belong to PETA

P...People

E...Eating

T...Tasty

A...Animals

We have had a big problem in New Jersey also with deers causing really bad car accidents.  One reason I love the City... if my subway hits a deer, I'll never feel it...

However I was in Australia a couple of years ago when they had open season on killing kangeroos... that was not nice... and some of the restaurants were serving kangeroo burgers...

Before long, we'll all be eating Soilent Green. That's why I had "Eat Me" tattooed on my arse.

Speed laws are to blame. Being alert and cautious, as well as reducing speed in highly travelled deer crossing areas really makes a difference. About one third of the deer/auto accidents I'm familiar with could have been avoided. Believe me, I've seen about two a week in just over five years. People forget that the animals were there long before we came on the scene.   

gdub411 wrote: Reed Lover wrote: Are we saying that deer should be culled because they are inconvenient? I find hunting for sport to be barbaric in the sense that it I can find no justification for anyone to kill anything senselessly. However as long as the hunting is for food eg not just for a trophy,then I cant really muster a valid argument against it. I think vegetarians are just as pathetic as hunters. When a family plows into a deer that stepped out onto the highway at 65 mph and their son or daughter flies through the windshield I will be sure to let them know we couldn't keep the deer population down just because it was an "inconvenience"

I am absolutely certain that if this "family" had been wearing seat belts they would NOT have gone through the windshield!

BTW I am pretty certain that I drive well enough not to hit anything on the roads. Greg you should not be reading "Playgirl" whilst driving your van!

danbo wrote: Before long, we'll all be eating Soilent Green. That's why I had "Eat Me" tattooed on my arse. Speed laws are to blame. Being alert and cautious, as well as reducing speed in highly travelled deer crossing areas really makes a difference. About one third of the deer/auto accidents I'm familiar with could have been avoided. Believe me, I've seen about two a week in just over five years. People forget that the animals were there long before we came on the scene.

Beat me to it.

We used to award 100 points if you could knock down an old dear, when i was a boy racer!

Oh no offence intended 3F8T's

Ah yes, Seatbelts. Another component that changes outcomes.

Are seatbelts required in England and Europe? It seems to me that it doesn't really matter with some of those minis. A healthy beaver would incapacitate one of those motorized rollerskates.

Sincerely, deer are the reason I bought a truck. A little higher and a hell of a lot more solid then any sedan.  

Reed Lover wrote: We used to award 100 points if you could knock down an old dear, when i was a boy racer! Oh no offence intended 3F8T's

Remember:

Well here in southern california it is important to have our .44 magnums as we speed (when Possible) at 85 mph to kill any field mice or lizzards or gang members that might iccky up our tires. 

 In parts of this country hunting is a way of life.  These people grow up that way learning to properly handle guns.  In fact here is a picture that will show you the caliber of people we are dealing with:

http://www.kansasmusicalartist.com/shower.jpg - http://www.kansasmusicalartist.com/shower.jpg

See any of these guys before Gdub.

In all seriousness I own no guns have fired one once in my life and never expect to ever.  BUT I have a real problem giving up rights if the guns go first Free speach is next and so on. 

Always thought it was a documentary myself!

I'll bet my Range Rover against any old gas guzzler you've got!

gdub411 wrote: Who needs porno mags when ya got the internet

You surf the web whilst you drive your van, no wonder your always hitting defenceless animals!

I drive a Hyundai...hardly a gas guzzler....too poor to throw money away on SUVS

I think we should take the oil from Iraq-that outa lower the prices...eh Reed Lover

gdub411 wrote: I think we should take the oil from Iraq-that outa lower the prices...eh Reed Lover

mailto:GNFF@@@FFF%%%SSS*^GGFDD - GNFF@@@FFF%%%SSS((*^GGFDD

You'll not get me that easy

and then we ought to set to conquering the world and assimilate everyone else into our culture...I mean we're the richest and greatest country on earth so who wouldn't want that?

We're like the Borg....but a benevolent,wonderful Borg

No way you gonna reel me in boy!

Reed Lover wrote: We used to award 100 points if you could knock down an old dear, when i was a boy racer! Oh no offence intended 3F8T's

None taken Ricky... I'm sure I'm a lot faster than you anyway...

gdub411 wrote: Well said Danbo and Threefates Simply Said: "Guns don't kill people. People kill people" and I'm all about simple(ton)

Guns don't kill people, people kill people?? Yeah, but guns help a bit....

It's already too late for America when it comes to gun law. Sad to say that it's almost become a form of poulation control.

We have a similar form of population control in the UK. It's called English food

sigod wrote: gdub411 wrote: Well said Danbo and Threefates Simply Said: "Guns don't kill people. People kill people" and I'm all about simple(ton) Guns don't kill people, people kill people?? Yeah, but guns help a bit.... It's already too late for America when it comes to gun law. Sad to say that it's almost become a form of poulation control. We have a similar form of population control in the UK. It's called English food

We have already had 2 doozy of wars in WWI and II, not to mention many little ones since and no matter how much we shoot at each other the human population  continues to grow like a cancer growth. Perhaps a plague bomb will do the trick.....hmmmm

gdub411 wrote: We have already had 2 doozy of wars in WWI and II, not to mention many little ones since and no matter how much we shoot at each other the human population  continues to grow like a cancer growth. Perhaps a plague bomb will do the trick.....hmmmm

Maybe.  But it would be better if was filled with squid. 

Garion81 wrote: gdub411 wrote: We have already had 2 doozy of wars in WWI and II, not to mention many little ones since and no matter how much we shoot at each other the human population  continues to grow like a cancer growth. Perhaps a plague bomb will do the trick.....hmmmm   Maybe.  But it would be better if was filled with squid.

Or Deer?

Has a bit too much hair for Danbo!

Hey, If it's got hair, I can hit it! 

Reed Lover wrote: Garion81 wrote: gdub411 wrote: We have already had 2 doozy of wars in WWI and II, not to mention many little ones since and no matter how much we shoot at each other the human population  continues to grow like a cancer growth. Perhaps a plague bomb will do the trick.....hmmmm   Maybe.  But it would be better if was filled with squid.  Or Deer? Has a bit too much hair for Danbo!

silly!