In My Opinion Prog & Alternative Rock don`t mix  and heres why ....

Alternative Rock is born out of whatever intelligence can be found in Punk Rock , Punk being the genre that tried to KILL prog in the 70`s  (but failed) is a good reason why Prog and Alternative rock should never be mentioned in the same sentence , as a mark of respect to our ELITE form of art (Prog) and those Progressive Titans who got screwed by commerce around that time ....  I have been trying to get you guys to see the light on this subject for awhile now, I hope this topic makes you think about it or perhaps give some interesting thought and ideas to perhaps Enlighten me.  

After all I wouldn`t mix my finest Scotch whisky with some cheap no name brand Cola would you ?  because thats what you are doing when you mix Prog with Alternative rock you are making the Prog lesser quality, oh sure art is about expression, thats granted ... but is a fart art ?  

Alternative rock is a term used to describe the music of american rock bands, who for whatever reason think they are better than the mtv top 10 list. They do not have the instrumental, nor compositional skills to make anything worthwhile, yet they are too cool to go money machine straight away.

When they do go money machine, they can still acclaim alternativeness, due to the drummer being bald, and the final track on their newest album featuring 4 notes from a violin.

Poxx wrote: Alternative rock is a term used to describe the music of american rock bands, who for whatever reason think they are better than the mtv top 10 list. They do not have the instrumental, nor compositional skills to make anything worthwhile, yet they are too cool to go money machine straight away. When they do go money machine, they can still acclaim alternativeness, due to the drummer being bald, and the final track on their newest album featuring 4 notes from a violin.

sure ... and all prog bands are absolutely top notch!

s1ipp3ry wrote: In My Opinion Prog & Alternative Rock don`t mix  and heres why .... Alternative Rock is born out of whatever intelligence can be found in Punk Rock , Punk being the genre that tried to KILL prog in the 70`s (but failed) rubbish. Punk was a reaction against acts like the Stones, Who, Rod Stewart etc becoming distant from their roots and playing overpriced stadium gigs. Punks were either indifferent to prog (the big symphonic acts) or actually liked some of it - Johnny Rotten was a fan of VDGG/Hammill and Krautrock, the Damned were Soft Machine fans and were produced by Nick Mason and so on is a good reason why Prog and Alternative rock should never be mentioned in the same sentence , as a mark of respect to our elite form of art (Prog) and those Progressive Titans who got screwed by commerce around that time  ELP, Yes, Genesis, Tull and Pink Floyd all enjoyed some of their biggest chart successes in 1977-78. I'm sure they felt extremely exploited!  ( I have been trying to get you guys to see the light on this subject for awhile now, I hope this topic makes you think about it or perhaps give some interesting thought and ideas to perhaps Enlighten me.

I'd rather be stuck on a desert island with Doolittle by The Pixies, just about any Pere Ubu album or Husker Du's Warehouse Songs and Stories than with Tales From Topographic Oceans, Pictures At An Exhibition or The Wall. Prog produced its share of duds, and the alternative scene continues to throw up genuinely inventive and creative artists who may have no place on the archive but who can be enjoyed by anybody with an open mind. 

s1ipp3ry wrote: Syzygy wrote: s1ipp3ry wrote: In My Opinion Prog & Alternative Rock don`t mix  and heres why .... Alternative Rock is born out of whatever intelligence can be found in Punk Rock , Punk being the genre that tried to KILL prog in the 70`s (but failed) rubbish. Punk was a reaction against acts like the Stones, Who, Rod Stewart etc becoming distant from their roots and playing overpriced stadium gigs. Punks were either indifferent to prog (the big symphonic acts) or actually liked some of it - Johnny Rotten was a fan of VDGG/Hammill and Krautrock, the Damned were Soft Machine fans and were produced by Nick Mason and so on is a good reason why Prog and Alternative rock should never be mentioned in the same sentence , as a mark of respect to our elite form of art (Prog) and those Progressive Titans who got screwed by commerce around that time  ELP, Yes, Genesis, Tull and Pink Floyd all enjoyed some of their biggest chart successes in 1977-78. I'm sure they felt extremely exploited!  ( I have been trying to get you guys to see the light on this subject for awhile now, I hope this topic makes you think about it or perhaps give some interesting thought and ideas to perhaps Enlighten me.   I'd rather be stuck on a desert island with Doolittle by The Pixies, just about any Pere Ubu album or Husker Du's Warehouse Songs and Stories than with Tales From Topographic Oceans, Pictures At An Exhibition or The Wall. Prog produced its share of duds, and the alternative scene continues to throw up genuinely inventive and creative artists who may have no place on the archive but who can be enjoyed by anybody with an open mind.  No to the best of my knowledge punk was started in direct retaliation to prog  and I have read and heard this from many reliable sources    BTW  tales from topographic oceans is a classic ... it takes time to get into but its worth it

Such as....?

Punk has nothing to do with Prog. It's  certainly not the exact opposite. Punk emerged as an opposition to conformity, civilized conduct etc.. It's as much in opposition to disco and popular music as to prog.

And although some alternative rock bands have punk roots or influences, these are only a small part of all bands which could be labeled alternative or independent.

OK - in 1976 Johnny Rotten played a selection of his favourite music on Capital Radio. The playlist included tracks from Peter Hammill's Nadir's Big Chance, Captain Beefheart and Tago Mago by Can - all highly rated in the archive. In his autobiography there is a photo of him with shoulder length hair in what he calls 'my Hawkwind phase'.

In the Q/Mojo progressive rock special Captain Sensible (formerly of The Damned) writes about his near obsession with Soft Machine. Nick Mason of Pink Floyd produced the Damned's second album. On the release of Machine Gun Ettiquette, Robert Fripp described Captain Sensible as 'the most exciting young guitarist in Britain'.

On their final UK tour Henry Cow went for a few drinks with future members of The Buzzcocks and The Fall in Manchester. Mark E Smith later stated his admiration for Henry Cow in a Melody Maker interview, and Georgie Born played on one of the Buzzcock's later singles.

Steve Hillage formed an unlikely but genuine friendship with Sham 69's Jimmy Pursey, and played with Sham 69 at the Reading Festival.

Daevid Allen teamed up with Here and Now to play a series of free concerts at mostly punk/new wave venues in 1977, captured on Live Floating Anarchy. He then went to New York where he teamed up with Bill Laswell and other young players on the 'No Wave' scene.

Nik Turner of Hawkwind formed the punky Inner City Unit, and the Hawklords tour featured support from punk poet/songwriter Patrick Fitzgerald. 

Brian Eno was the producer of the New York No Wave sampler featuring a selection of New York underground punk bands.

You next...

I think it is time I stopped and wondered why everybody links alternative to punk. While there are links, they are other origins for this 'movement' and some of it come from post-punk, new wave, pop rock (taking from the Beatles inspired tunes) etc......

It is relatively generic name to describe rock (englobing also some pop) from 85 until now.

Slipper3ry

I'd give up if I was you!!!

Chris knows his subject quite well and I fully agree on his arguments. Punk was not born to destroy prog!!! It was simply the pendulum movement of public taste. However it did ridicule it a bit, needing the spotlight - bold comments picked upon by the press who saw this as heavenly-dropped - but needing also the airplay to make a living

Prog killed itself by releasing awfull , bloated and terribly overly (and overtly) self-conscious pompous and bombastic music from 75 onwards.

Trouserpress wrote: I hate the phrase "Alternative Rock". Alternative my arse.

Around here, fellow jocks once used 'alternative rock'/'alternative music' as a term encompassing in particular the Madchester pop and rock scene, e.g. James, Happy Mondays and even back to Echo & The Bunnymen. I suppose because it was an alternative to what was being played on Radio One, until their jocks cottoned on to the music and made it main stream. One reason why my prog rock and jazz fusion show was originally called The Alternative Alternative Show, was because I  deliberately provided an alternative to the then ever present alternative music on UK student radio

I don't see the problem of haveing prog and alternative in the same sentnce if anyhting its good because prog is finding new forms in which to create great music!

Now as for the punk killed prog myth, sorry but that is absoulte and utter bollocks. Where does in stiff little fingers 'Alternative Ulster' does it say anything about hateing prog? It calls for a new N. Ireland where everyone is equal, Where is the anti-prog message in The Buzzcocks 'shouldn't have fallen in love...' a song about falling in love with the wrong person, where does it say we hate prog in The Undertones 'Teenage kicks' a song about catholic ideals on sex and relationships or in 'Pretty Vacant' a song about a bored youth? It is not there! You have to look at the time period, the late 70's was terrible in England with strikes, unions holding the Gov. to ransom, kids living with the possibily of not finding work when they left school! This whole Punk killed Prog myth was whipped up by Malcom 'bats for the other team, muppett' McClaren just becuase the lead singer of his band wore a pink floyd t-shirt with 'I hate' scrawled on it when they first met. Punk just forced prog under ground and into new areas and bands like iron Maiden, Queensryche, Metallica (check out 'Master of Puppets'), just like now prog has found new homes in differnt styles in bands like Coheed and Cambria, The Mars Volta, Muse, Radiohead, Opeth, Dream Theater.  

 rubbish. Punk was a reaction against acts like the Stones, Who, Rod Stewart etc becoming distant from their roots and playing overpriced stadium gigs. Punks were either indifferent to prog (the big symphonic acts) or actually liked some of it - Johnny Rotten was a fan of VDGG/Hammill and Krautrock, the Damned were Soft Machine fans and were produced by Nick Mason and so on>>

This is the most thoughtful and insightful blurb I have read in a while. It goes against the grain of mainstream thinking in many ways and since most mainstream thinking about prog or music, including that of the hollowed (sic intended) Ivory Towers, is crap, I must applaud, applaud applaud.

One of the reasons I like it is because for years, perhaps decades, I have been trying to figure out why Johnny Rotten would be anti-prog when prog, especially his nemesis Pink Floyd, was criticizing the same thing that punk was, the crass over commericalization of modern life. I've heard him say on several occassions that he was not against what Yes or Pink Ployd were doing. We must divorce our thinking about music from marketing concepts that filter every thought we have about everything. 

just like now prog has found new homes in different styles in bands like Coheed and Cambria, The Mars Volta, Muse, Radiohead, Opeth, Dream Theater.  >>

In addition, prog has become so narrowly defined over the years. I read alot in these blogs about the evils of U2 who are actually a favorite band of Dream Theater.  Go figure. Anyway, the idea of alt rock is a discourse that comes out of punk about the authenticity of music. Music needed to stay close to its roots and redefine itself from there, which is not all together untrue.  This discourse is as old as the hills.  It posited R and B against white rockabilly, and folk stars like Led Belly or Bob Dylan against Tin Pan Alley and rock and roll.

Wasn't Bob Geldoff in the "Bottom Rats" when Roger Waters called him for "The wall"?

Rashikal wrote: everyone here is so label oriented it is sad.

It makes it easy to talk about styles of music, even though everyone seems to argue about what band is what. You're just going to have to deal with it

s1ipp3ry wrote: In My Opinion Prog & Alternative Rock don`t mix  and heres why .... Alternative Rock is born out of whatever intelligence can be found in Punk Rock , Punk being the genre that tried to KILL prog in the 70`s  (but failed) is a good reason why Prog and Alternative rock should never be mentioned in the same sentence , as a mark of respect to our ELITE form of art (Prog) and those Progressive Titans who got screwed by commerce around that time ....  I have been trying to get you guys to see the light on this subject for awhile now, I hope this topic makes you think about it or perhaps give some interesting thought and ideas to perhaps Enlighten me.   After all I wouldn`t mix my finest Scotch whisky with some cheap no name brand Cola would you ?  because thats what you are doing when you mix Prog with Alternative rock you are making the Prog lesser quality, oh sure art is about expression, thats granted ... but is a fart art ?

I'm not sure I fully understand why so many seem to be down on punk, modern rock, etc. just because it isn't prog. Is all you listen to prog? That would be a shame. Why not listen to anything and if it sounds good to your ears, listen to it again and not worry if it's prog or if it's some elaborate musical passage or some three chord rock?

Listening to something that is two chords repeating and enjoying it doesn't make you less of an intellect or make people think less of you.  If you like some prefabricated, overproduced, studio trickery-laced pop by the latest pop prince (or princess) and lilke it, so what? 

You eat a variety of foods (I hope), don't you? Sometimes you have toast and jam, sometimes you go out and have a gourmet meal. Sometimes you have your fine Scotch, sometimes you have orange juice. You wouldn't subject your tastebuds to the same food everytime you sit down for a meal, why are you doing the same for your ears? Does eating a ham sandwich take away from the fact that one loves French cuisine?

And I don't think punk was really out to destroy prog. Punk was a reaction to the popular forms of rock at the time. Punk was against the stadium rock where most of the audience was half a kilometre from the stage. Punk brought it back to the clubs. Punk brought rock back to the basics of 50's and 60's rock, where anyone could pick up a musical instrument and rock, rather than go through years of music lessons. Punk was against the 70's notion that concerts should include a long, lingering guitar solo, a drum solo or even (shudder) a bass solo. After all, shouldn't music be about how it makes you feel, rather than how well someone could play mixolidian modal passages in 19/4 timing? Most of the punk rage against prog was just to hit some sacred cows and simple bravado.

OK, rant over, sorry to ramble. Last thought: Since relatively few people listen to prog as opposed to other forms of rock, wouldn't that make prog "alternative" by definition?

^ Yes it does

and what's wrong with a bass solo?

sl1ppery's argument against the fusion of punk/alt rock and prog is self-contradictory. he compares it to mixing something "pure" with something "impure" or "common". he should ask himself: how was prog itself born? a: it was the "pure", "wholesome", "high" art of classical and jazz music mixed with the "common", "pedestrian", "low" art of rock music. Only by fusing genres, recycling old ideas together, can new styles be invented. Every time new genres are bred, the result is greater and newer, a step forward. That's why the all-inclusive Mr. Bungle is my favorite group at the moment, as are the punk-prog Mars Volta, the alt rock-prog Radiohead, etc. Ignoring and brushing aside the new is just something done to simplify the world, to keep your old world perfectly framed and undamaged. It resists change, truth, and right. The old and new must be seen equally.

 Since Darrin said most of what I was thinking, I'll just try to sum up.

 These things tend to be cyclical.

 Punk was a return to the roots of rock'n'roll.

 Alternative can be likened to what the Beatles were doing. Not stylistically, socially.

 Compare the years between punk and alt to the years between Elvis and the Beatles and  you   can  see they match up pretty closely.

 The bottom line is we should be getting to the point where we start seeing  a return of PROG,  indeed it is already starting. The next few years should see some really interesting music coming out.

Tormato wrote: Wasn't Bob Geldoff in the "Bottom Rats" when Roger Waters called him for "The wall"?

Off topic I know but this reminds me of one of those docos on the making of "The Wall". Geldoff was riding in a taxi with his agent and went off on a rant. Geldoff went off talking how he hated the idea, didn't want to do the film and voiced a few words about what he thought about Pink Floyd. This being a small world, Sir Bob didn't know the cab driver was Roger Water's brother.

Seriously I couldn't give a sh*t. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I like WHAT SOUNDS GOOD. I love prog but lately I've been introduced to the Kidney Thieves and be they 'alternative' or not, I sure think they're the most proggy-alt band ever to come across meee.

Rashikal wrote: everyone here is so label oriented it is sad.

So how do you explain the sort of new music youre into, to your friends who haven't heard it? You need reference points, but would suggest there is the aspect of overdoing these things. However, I don't believe such labelling should restrict listening, because some music doesn't fit a particular pigeonhole.