YES WE HAVE THE BEST THE BEST PROG BANDS KING CRIMSON, PINK FLOYD, GENESIS, VDGG, CAMEL, JETHRO TULL, YES, ELP, MAYBE? LED ZEP, ALSO MAYBE? BLACK SABBATH, HAWKWIND, MARILLION, MANFRED MANN'S EARTHBAND, URIAH HEEP, BARCLEY JAMES HARVEST, ARTHUR BROWN, THE NICE, STRAWBS AND MANY MORE ANYONE AGREE? BUT WE WELSH HAVE MAN AND BUDGIE AS OUR PROG ROCK GROUPS 100% WELSH. BUT THE ABOVE BANDS ARE ENGLISH DAMMITT

Prog is a distinctly English affair old chap Allowing for Rush who are of course Canadian.

However, the Welsh do have the best indie rock bands IMO, The Manics, Catatonia (had) The Stereophonics, Super furry animals. I think that counts for something.

Most of my favorite bands come from England. But generally speaking, almost anything regarding Europe is considered excellent prog. Take a look at the Scandinavian prog scene for instance. Italy, Germany and France are/were precursors as well.

Don't forget my fellow Dutchmen: Earth and Fire (first 4 albums), Finch, Supersister, Focus, Kayak (first 3 albums), some other names...

Kansas was an obvious threat against the British domination of course.

What about Mahavishnu Orchestra? US-based, but the first line-up was a multi-cultural affair. Ok, they're more jazz/fusion than classic prog, but great nonetheless.

AngelRat wrote: Kansas was an obvious threat against the British domination of course.

IN THEIR DREAMS!!!!!!!!

emdiar wrote: AngelRat wrote: Kansas was an obvious threat against the British domination of course. IN THEIR DREAMS!!!!!!!!

Their dreams were strong...

AngelRat wrote: emdiar wrote: AngelRat wrote: Kansas was an obvious threat against the British domination of course. IN THEIR DREAMS!!!!!!!! Their dreams were strong...

...But their albums were not. 

philippe wrote: GERMAN PROG IS THE BEST

Germans Know a thing or two about electric synth music (TD, Klause Schulze, Ashra etc.) but some of their prog is not exactly top rate (The Eloy.)

lucas wrote: No country is the best, you have good prog bands in every country.

Thank you....

Remember to replace "BEST" with "FAVORITE."

Progman wrote:

YES WE HAVE THE BEST THE BEST PROG BANDS KING CRIMSON, PINK FLOYD, GENESIS, VDGG, CAMEL, JETHRO TULL, YES, ELP, MAYBE? LED ZEP, ALSO MAYBE? BLACK SABBATH, HAWKWIND, MARILLION, MANFRED MANN'S EARTHBAND, URIAH HEEP, BARCLEY JAMES HARVEST, ARTHUR BROWN, THE NICE, STRAWBS AND MANY MORE ANYONE AGREE? BUT WE WELSH HAVE MAN AND BUDGIE AS OUR PROG ROCK GROUPS 100% WELSH. BUT THE ABOVE BANDS ARE ENGLISH DAMMITT

In first place Progman, PLEASE DON'T WRITE IN HIGH CASE, IT'S ANNOYING.

Back to the subject:

Love British prog, and Genesis is my favorite band, but I dopn't Believe Brits have the exclusive for Prog' Rock.

USA: Kansas, Pavlov's Dog, Glass Hammer, Echolyn}

Germany: Triumvirat

Italy: PFM, Le Orme, Banco del Mutuo Soccorso.

Netherlands. Focus

Sweden: Anglagard, Par Lindh, Anekdoten

Israel: Trespass, Sympopzium, etc

Perú: Frágil, Traffic Sound Laghonia.

Probably you don't know about this bands and 100 more, that's why you affirm that.

Iván

Blacksword wrote: Prog is a distinctly English affair old chap Allowing for Rush who are of course Canadian.

Only if you take Ed Macan's thesis too seriously. Don't ignore the Californian's Touch. And one US academic who have you also consider United States Of America. And the Mothers........................ etc etc

Its been pointed out by many in this discussion, that there are good prog acts from countries other than the UK. Good they may be, but I think its fair to say we had the most successful bands. Successful because they were the best?? Maybe, maybe not. Thats all down to taste and opinion. What makes Engalnd the home of prog, IMO, is that this is where it originated.

Can anyone tell me what progressive music was being made in the US or elsewhere when the Floyd, Moody Blues, The Nice, etc were starting out??

In the 70´s there was almost nothing but British bands

I'm happy to inform you that you are wrong! Trust me, this is a good thing. In fact, this whole thread likes to pretend Italy doesn't exist. And while the UK produced some of the best prog (back when), it's also produced some of the worst.

Blacksword wrote: Its been pointed out by many in this discussion, that there are good prog acts from countries other than the UK. Good they may be, but I think its fair to say we had the most successful bands. Successful because they were the best?? Maybe, maybe not. Thats all down to taste and opinion. What makes Engalnd the home of prog, IMO, is that this is where it originated. Can anyone tell me what progressive music was being made in the US or elsewhere when the Floyd, Moody Blues, The Nice, etc were starting out??

Prog? Nope...I think the UK (mainly England) pretty much deserves all the credit for giving us the first great prog bands. Nobody is going to say that Floyd, ELP, Genesis, Yes, Crimson, etc., aren't the head of the pack- either success-wise or influence-wise.

From a different angle, though, the psychedelic era inspiration for prog (the genre's immediate cause) comes directly from the US. Bands like Pink Floyd weren't yet doing anything more definatively progressive than the Californian bands they emulated. Even if you dispute that Zappa's "Freak Out" was a true concept album, it predates most of the 'proto-prog' work that was happening elsewhere.

philippe wrote: You are right Emdiar (up to a certain point)... but what do you think of german prog bands as Nektar, Gila, Grobschnitt, Novalis...their albums are certainly badly distributed compared to English prog, but it dosen't mean that because they don't sell that they are not classics.

Since when were Nektar German? They may have launched their career there, but then so did the Beatles and no one would ever accuse them of being anything other than Scousers. No, Nektar are/were Brits to a man.

Blacksword wrote: Can anyone tell me what progressive music was being made in the US or elsewhere when the Floyd, Moody Blues, The Nice, etc were starting out??

As I said (and as Jon Anderson amongst other acknowledges), you can't ignore TOUCH - the pity is that the prog historians have, (most of whom seem to be American - Macan, Lucky - who got into the music at the end of 70's), which I put down to poor research.

And please careful with your semantics here, e.g. with words like "originated", because it is easy to find American bands playing some semblance of what became known as "prog" in the mid-60's. ("Origin/originated" being used as Charles Darwin's "Origin Of the Species"). Then I won't argue too much with Jerry Lucky's contention that the the London Festival Orchestra/Moody Blues Days Of Future Past" can be considered the first real prog rock album - but based on rules constructed for defining prog rock 10 or more years after the album's release - those of us who were around the time of the album's release, know that Days Of Future Past was 80%+ luck and less than 10% judgement, especially in becoming a prog record. As I've written elsewhere this was an experiment by Decca Record's Phase 4 department (who specialised in stereo recordings, when much of the market was still monoaural), to put together orchestra (first) and (second) pop group. (The Moody Blues were available languishing on Decca's books and they hadn't  had a hit since Denny Laine had left them, and called in having some tunes). As an experiment, the new developing rock market in the UK called "fraud", and avoided buying the album. Nights In White Satin was at first a minor hit single - and the MB went to the States (like the Who , Cream and before them) to find some future - Forever Afternoon (Tuesday) having been big over there in the singles market (not in the UK) and the band shift from pending obscurity to fame & fortune.

Then some of us would take issue as to when Floyd stopped being an English psychedelic band and became strictly progressive rock- Dark Side Of The Moon for instance? I guess by then, Kansas were around!

Again I've written this elsewhere: Krimson biographer Sid Smith for 2 or more years, has been researching and interviewing personalities/artists/musicians on the British music scene in the mid/late 60's for a book - tentatively called Elastic Rock - in some attempt to correct a significant amount of allusion/illusion about the early days of progressive rock. Sooner it gets published the better.

You have no arguments from me Progman. King Crimson and Gentle Giant are two of my faves. My dogs also love these bands. Saw Yes here in Montreal two days ago. They still have it. Cheers.

Gentlemen, I'm sorry, but reading this topic it seems there's a lot of people living in the past. OK, Genesis, Yes, etc., were the best bands (even so, Italian bands were at the same level, but unknown or underrated). Look at the eighties, and think about the same great bands making crap. Look at the nineties, and compare British and Scandinavian scene... And 30 years after, at present time, how many British bands are standing out? 

Prog is the music of the UNIVERSE...

P.S.: Best country is Bahrain with OSIRIS...

Why don't you go by decades?

60's: American and British Psycodelia had the lead as Proto Progger's.

70's GB and Italy have the lead along with a few Italian, German and USA bands.

80's: Better forget that decade

90's: This decade was Swedish by large, being Anglagard, Anekdoten and Par Lindh Project the best prog' rockers without doubt.

00's: Prog is spread all over the world, most of the early monsters are mainly live performers with no more valuable compositions (Except a few like Hackett and Gabriel).

New bands come from all around the world take the lead. Magenta UK is amazing, Trespass Israel is outstanding, Par Lindh Project from Sweden is still among the best, Hackett keeps releasing great music as Gabriel from UK; Echolyn, Dream Theater, Glass Hammer from USA, there are great bands from other countries like Teru's Symphonia from Japan or even from some ex Soviet Republics and don't forget South America.

So British Prog' was the starter, but the genre soon spread to the rest of the world.

Iván

Yes, it's true that in the late sixties and early to mid-seventies the UK had the most talented group of musicians to ever grace the planet earth at the time for rock music as well as progresssive rock.

They lost that distinction around the second half of the seventies when punk and new wave music took over (people that prefer that kind of music would disagree).

Where are the new UK progressive bands now? I can think of Threshold and a few others but that hardly qualifies as ruling the world anymore.

do any of you Miles Davis or Kraftwerk fans feel like they're living in the past?

kinda hard not to when at least 75% of the genre's major releases came out between '68 and '77

(a lot of which were British, true)

90's: This decade was Swedish by large, being Anglagard, Anekdoten and Par Lindh Project the best prog' rockers without doubt.

By "large"? Misconception. Those bands had but two studio albums apiece throughout the entire decade (one even split up). Yes, Anglagard made a big spash at the very first ProgFest, and I also like PLP. I've just never regarded Sweden as a hotbed like, say, Italy or Japan. In the '90s, tons of new/er groups sprung up, some embracing the past, some combining the best of old and new. Many of these bands originated from the USA, Japan, and Brazil & Argentina.

It's also interesting to note that while Britain has produced many fine prog bands, they are often far more succesful outwith their homeland. After the 1970's, countries like Germany and Holland kept many British prog bands alive.

A couple of examples:

Barclay James Harvest stopped releasing their albums in the UK because of lack of sales, and concentrated on the German market.

Arena's live album was recorded in Holland because they play in large auditoriums there. In Britain they play in the back of barns!

Many other bands get far bigger audiences abroad than they do in the UK. The UK may have the ability to create the music, but it is the rest of the world which appreciates it! (British members of this forum excepted of course!)

I don't think the eighties can be ignored entirely:

IQ -Tales from The Lush Attic/The Wake

Marillion - Script/Misplaced Childhood

Rush - Moving Pictures/Power Windows

Plus there were albums from Jethro Tull,Yes .ELPowell and Pink Floyd released in that decade that I know some people like even if I don't!

But that's an aside to the debate.The template for prog was created in the seventies by Yes,ELP,Genesis,Floyd,Crimson,Tull .Without these great bands there wouldn't be a genre worth talking about and indeed they are all British! You can also add Rush as non British but even they took a lot of inspiration from those pioneering bands as did PFM and all the Italian bands that could be mentioned.

richardh wrote: I don't think the eighties can be ignored entirely:

...And God knows I've tried!

emdiar wrote: richardh wrote: I don't think the eighties can be ignored entirely: ...And God knows I've tried!

I managed to sleep through most of it LOL!

Prog originated in the UK of that there is no doubt.The major innovators inspired and created all those who followed and there has been more than a few throughout the last four decades.But the great sadness for me being British/Scottish and (Jon Anderson's dad was a Scot from Paisley) is that the media ignore real music and push the drivel that is modern music.I saw Arena last Easter in Glasgow and there was hardly fifty people there.This once great rock country is seriously ill.

"This once great rock country is seriously ill."

You said it Fragile! I had taken a little heart from the success of the Darkness, the band no one would sign untill their gigs were out-selling most mainstream pop bands, but I'm afraid it was a flash in the pan. Apart from one great anthem, ("I Believe In A Thing Called Love") their songs are pretty ordinary. Only a complete lack of anything else remotely similar could have made them Britains number 1 rock band for 15 minutes. Shame really, 'cus in the face of an ubiquitous RnB/hip hop culture , any rock is good rock.

Emdiar all is not yet lost even though The Darkness do rip all the other great rock bands off.They are media friendly and there were more than just the one decent rock number on their 'Permission to Land' Album.For all their posturing they can at least play live and if they can write another decent rock album it might yet just catch on to the youth of today to enable them to expand their minds!Who am I kidding on?

Fragile wrote: Prog originated in the UK of that there is no doubt.The major innovators inspired and created all those who followed and there has been more than a few throughout the last four decades.But the great sadness for me being British/Scottish and (Jon Anderson's dad was a Scot from Paisley) is that the media ignore real music and push the drivel that is modern music.I saw Arena last Easter in Glasgow and there was hardly fifty people there.This once great rock country is seriously ill.

Carl Palmer's father was Scottish also... from Glasgow.  And last year, Carl's concert's were somewhat well attended... by a lot of tall bald men with ponytails in black leather jackets...  As far as women at these shows... I could count them on one hand.  Actually it was me and the 3 waitresses...  But the show at the Renfrew Ferry was great and there was a little better attendance at the Loch Gelly Leisure Center. 

I can't wait to go back to Loch Gelly this Nov. for Carl's show.  My B&B in Cowdenbeath was just excellent!

This country today when it comes to music is a disgrace. There is no real talent..as long as you look good you will sell records. Personally I believe that what is needed is an avenue in which young people can be exposed to good music, maybe through radio, tv, or magazine. For example, in school during intervals and classes I would play some of my music and a number of people are now into the likes of Yes, Mostly Autumn *big hit amongst my friends* and Wishbone Ash ..oh and Todd Rundgren.  Britain was and could be the best for producing some of the best prog bands, E.L.P, Yes, King Crimson, Marillion, Uriah Heep, Barclay James Harvest, Gong, Caravan, Genesis, Magenta, Mostly Autumn, IQ and Wishbone Ash ..there are more.

Your'e  far travelled for a concert Three Fates I was also at the Carl Palmer gig and like The Wishbone Ash gig the previous month it was choc a block but this was because these bands had links to the 70's.There must have been more than  4 women there as my 17 year old was there with me and others.Carl Palmer is back in November will you be over for that?Great to read that prog is getting played at school.Is this the school of Rock that Jack Black wanted?Good for you Shrinking Violet - great Mostly Autumn track is your moniker!

                                                 John

Dropforge wrote:

By "large"? Misconception. Those bands had but two studio albums apiece throughout the entire decade (one even split up). Yes, Anglagard made a big spash at the very first ProgFest, and I also like PLP. I've just never regarded Sweden as a hotbed like, say, Italy or Japan. In the '90s, tons of new/er groups sprung up, some embracing the past, some combining the best of old and new.

Well, thet's part of the old debate quality vs quantity, IMHO Hybris and Epilog are by far the best prog' albums from the 90's, I believe there's not a single album from the 80's and 90's that could be even close to this two masterpieces.

Par Lindh Project has released 7 albums (4 studio) exactly the same number as Genesis prog' era albums.

Anekdoten has relesed 6 albums (4 is studio).

So there are not so few releases as you mention, without counting other lesser known Scandinavian bands we're talking about 16 excellent albums.

But even if there were only 5 or 6, I chose quality berore quantity, and the quality in the 90's was in Sweden. I would be the most happy man on earth if Genesis would have changed the name after W&W, because the all the later albums don't represent the importance of the band.

To be precise, the 3 men Genesis are the best representation of the 80's, the decade I try to forget.

Iván

Guys, if you think GB is a tough place to hear decent music...try living in Las Vegas

Just because I can, another big vote for Italian Prog!

ivan_2068 wrote: So there are not so few releases as you mention, without counting other lesser known Scandinavian bands we're talking about 16 excellent albums.

Kerrs Pink, Landberk, Gjallarhorn, Ragnarök, Finnforest and Kaipa (just to point out a couple) would definitely fit into that description

in the 70's, it was UK hands down, but today, there are so many bands that even USA can win.

Of course, do not forget the 80's! You have to be ignorant to not consider this decade as important in prog history! Marillion, Pink Floyd, Rush, Yes, IQ, ELPowell.

And how about:

Saga, Pendragon, Pallas, Anyone's daughter, It bites, Eloy, Twelfth Night, isildur's bane, ivory, gandalf, asia, abel ganz, art zoyd, camel, djam karet, ozric tentacles, mike oldfield, enid, fates warning....

Greenback wrote:

Of course, do not forget the 80's! You have to be ignorant to not consider this decade as important in prog history! Marillion, Pink Floyd, Rush, Yes, IQ, ELPowell.

Just a few days we were talking about this kind of posts, everybody is entitled to his opinion without having to be called ignorant.

I'm one of those who think the 80's is the worst decade of musical history for many reasons but I will only mention a couple.

I.- Pink Floyd, Yes,  ELP and most of the 70's monster's best days as composers had already passed, lets see:

1. Waters left Pink Floyd after "The Final Cut" (Which was not one of the band's best albums), and the later are not the same
2. Yes released "90125", "9012Live"," Big Generator", and that's all.
3. Genesis case is even worst: "Duke", "ABACAB", "Invisible Touch", "Shapes" (Genesis), "And the Word Was" (A new art cover for From Genesis to the Revelation) and of course their best work "Three Sides Live" (Sadly only the fourth side in the British version was decent).
4. Emerson Lake & Palmer didn't released a single album, and ELPowell is not precisely a masterpiece.
5. Kansas released their three worst albums.
6. Asia: You have the right to like them, but IMHO they only released third class prog and second class AOR.
7. Jethro Tull didn't released a single outstanding album in the 80's.
8. Camel released "Nude", "The Single Factor" and "Stationary Traveller", which are not even a shadow of "Rain Dances" or "Moonmadness".
9. Mike Oldfield didn't released a single album in the level of "Tubular Bells" or "Ommadawn".
10. Rick Wakeman released mostly New Age stuff, nothing even memorable, not even 1984.

It's obvious for me that there's not a single album from this decade that can be considered in the same league as "Close to the Edge", "Foxtrot", "Trilogy", "Wish You Were Here" or even "Leftoverture". But you have your own opinion and you're entitled to it.

II.- 90% of the other bands of this decade are Neo Prog' or AOR, two sub-genres which I don't really care very much for, and strongly influenced by POP, so I prefer to forget almost all the music released in the 80's.

III.- The Italian Bands were almost dead during the 80's,

1.  PFM only released "Come Ti Va in Riva Alla Citta" in 1981 and "Li' Album di PFM" in 1989, both simply mediocre if compared to Per un Amico, Storia di un Minuto or La' Isola di Niente.
2. Banco del Mutuo Soccorso didn't released a single album beytween 1976 and 1991.
3. Le Orme was only a shadow releasing only "Venerdi"; "Piccola Rapsodie Dell Ape" was released in january 1980 but recorded during 1979, it's a good album but not in the level of "Felona e Sorona" or "Florian".

The same can be said about prog' in the rest of the world.

IV.- Prog fans had to wait until 1992 to listen a new masterpiece like "Hybris", nuch better than anything released 12 or even 14 years before.

As you see, I strongly disagree with you Greenback, but I don't need to call you an ignorant, this is a civilized forum, try to keep it this way.

Iván

Fragile wrote: Emdiar all is not yet lost even though The Darkness do rip all the other great rock bands off.They are media friendly and there were more than just the one decent rock number on their 'Permission to Land' Album.For all their posturing they can at least play live and if they can write another decent rock album it might yet just catch on to the youth of today to enable them to expand their minds!Who am I kidding on?

NOTE: The Darkness were once a PROG band called Empire. Not a lot of people know that!

ivan_2068 wrote: Greenback wrote: Of course, do not forget the 80's! You have to be ignorant to not consider this decade as important in prog history! Marillion, Pink Floyd, Rush, Yes, IQ, ELPowell. Just a few days we were talking about this kind of posts, everybody is entitled to his opinion without having to be called ignorant. As you see, I strongly disagree with you Greenback, but I don't need to call you an ignorant, this is a civilized forum, try to keep it this way. Iván

Ivan: Your English is excellent. However, you seem to have needlessly taken offense at a word which has a few nuances of which you may not be aware. Ignorant does not mean stupid, it just means one who ignores (deliberately or unwittingly), or is (innocently) unaware of (in this case, eighties prog). It is not necessarily an insult.  One can describe one's self as being "blissfully ignorant" of a fact, which simply means, "I was happier not knowing".

James Lee wrote: ignorance of the prog is no excuse

LOL!

ivan_2068 wrote: Greenback wrote: Of course, do not forget the 80's! You have to be ignorant to not consider this decade as important in prog history! Marillion, Pink Floyd, Rush, Yes, IQ, ELPowell. Just a few days we were talking about this kind of posts, everybody is entitled to his opinion without having to be called ignorant. I'm one of those who think the 80's is the worst decade of musical history for many reasons but I will only mention a couple. I.- Pink Floyd, Yes,  ELP and most of the 70's monster's best days as composers had already passed, lets see: Waters left Pink Floyd after "The Final Cut" (Which was not one of the band's best albums), and the later are not the same Yes released "90125", "9012Live"," Big Generator", and that's all. Genesis case is even worst: "Duke", "ABACAB", "Invisible Touch", "Shapes" (Genesis), "And the Word Was" (A new art cover for From Genesis to the Revelation) and of course their best work "Three Sides Live" (Sadly only the fourth side in the British version was decent). Emerson Lake & Palmer didn't released a single album, and ELPowell is not precisely a masterpiece. Kansas released their three worst albums. Asia: You have the right to like them, but IMHO they only released third class prog and second class AOR. Jethro Tull didn't released a single outstanding album in the 80's. Camel released "Nude", "The Single Factor" and "Stationary Traveller", which are not even a shadow of "Rain Dances" or "Moonmadness". Mike Oldfield didn't released a single album in the level of "Tubular Bells" or "Ommadawn". Rick Wakeman released mostly New Age stuff, nothing even memorable, not even 1984. It's obvious for me that there's not a single album from this decade that can be considered in the same league as "Close to the Edge", "Foxtrot", "Trilogy", "Wish You Were Here" or even "Leftoverture". But you have your own opinion and you're entitled to it. II.- 90% of the other bands of this decade are Neo Prog' or AOR, two sub-genres which I don't really care very much for, and strongly influenced by POP, so I prefer to forget almost all the music released in the 80's. III.- The Italian Bands were almost dead during the 80's,  PFM only released "Come Ti Va in Riva Alla Citta" in 1981 and "Li' Album di PFM" in 1989, both simply mediocre if compared to Per un Amico, Storia di un Minuto or La' Isola di Niente. Banco del Mutuo Soccorso didn't released a single album beytween 1976 and 1991. Le Orme was only a shadow releasing only "Venerdi"; "Piccola Rapsodie Dell Ape" was released in january 1980 but recorded during 1979, it's a good album but not in the level of "Felona e Sorona" or "Florian". The same can be said about prog' in the rest of the world. IV.- Prog fans had to wait until 1992 to listen a new masterpiece like "Hybris", nuch better than anything released 12 or even 14 years before. As you see, I strongly disagree with you Greenback, but I don't need to call you an ignorant, this is a civilized forum, try to keep it this way. Iván

Just to pick up on point 1V Ivan.I would name IQ's 'The Wake' (1985) as a masterpeice and Marillion 'Misplaced Childhood'(1986) is worthy of consideration as is Rush 'Power Windows'(1986).I've never thought the eighties was a dead loss prog wise.There were a few bands that kept the genre alive in that time ilke the aforementioned bands and also the German band ELOY who made some of their best prog on that decade like 'Time To Turn'(1982).

'Hybris' (which I love BTW) is very much a 'retro sounding' prog album as is Par Lindh's 'Gothic Impressions'.What the Swedish bands did was simply take prog back to the seventies sound wise and they did it very well I'm happy to say.However IMO it was IQ who made the greatest strides in the nineties with 2 superb albums 'Ever' and 'Subterannea' and were more 'progressive' in my opinion.But it's all good so I'm not sure what my argument is exactly

Fragile wrote: Prog originated in the UK of that there is no doubt.The major innovators inspired and created all those who followed and there has been more than a few throughout the last four decades.But the great sadness for me being British/Scottish and (Jon Anderson's dad was a Scot from Paisley) is that the media ignore real music and push the drivel that is modern music.I saw Arena last Easter in Glasgow and there was hardly fifty people there.This once great rock country is seriously ill.

Fragile,

Looks like between us (my sons and I were there) we made up about 10% of the audience.

It was the Easter weekend I suppose, but even so, the turn out was really disappointing. It did provide a great opportunity to chat to the band before the gig though. Despite the poor attendance, the band played a superb gig.

Emdiar wrote:

Ivan: Your English is excellent. However, you seem to have needlessly taken offense at a word which has a few nuances of which you may not be aware. Ignorant does not mean stupid, it just means one who ignores (deliberately or unwittingly), or is (innocently) unaware of (in this case, eighties prog). It is not necessarily an insult.  One can describe one's self as being "blissfully ignorant" of a fact, which simply means, "I was happier not knowing".

Don't worry Emdiar, I don't take offense so easily, but that's me, lets remember we have people of diverse cultures, and what may be harmles for a USA or British citizen may be offensive for a latin American or an Asian citizen.

In my country if you call someone ignorant he may answer you whif a jab in your face , not my case because I've been called worst things in the Genesis forum each time I talk about Phil Collins.

You can read my post and notice I'm not angry, but I have seen terrible problems in other forums for less than that, I would hate to see any trouble or people leaving the forum for something like this, so it's just prevention because I'm sure somebody may consider an insult being considered ignorant.

Richardh wrote:

Just to pick up on point 1V Ivan.I would name IQ's 'The Wake' (1985) as a masterpeice and Marillion 'Misplaced Childhood'(1986) is worthy of consideration as is Rush 'Power Windows'(1986).I've never thought the eighties was a dead loss prog wise.There were a few bands that kept the genre alive in that time ilke the aforementioned bands and also the German band ELOY who made some of their best prog on that decade like 'Time To Turn'(1982).

That's a valid opinion Richardh, I don't agree because I don't like most Neo Prog', but this is only a personal opinion and a particular taste.

About Rush, you're right, Power Windows is a great album, but still I believe their best job was done in the 70's.

Richardh wrote:

'Hybris' (which I love BTW) is very much a 'retro sounding' prog album as is Par Lindh's 'Gothic Impressions'.What the Swedish bands did was simply take prog back to the seventies sound wise and they did it very well I'm happy to say.However .

Yeap, that's an absolute truth, Anglagard took influences from the 70's and worked with them in an impressive way, but for example Marillion, IQ and Pendragon have strong influence from the 4 men Genesis, in the case of Marillion and Pendragon is more evident.

Magenta in the 00's takes clear influences of the 70's prog' also and it's ok, they have two magnificent albums.

Yes and Genesis took influences from the Baroque Classical period, mixed them with Rock and some jazz.

ELP took strong influence from the late romantic/early modern classical periods, especially from the Russians, and they did a hell of a job.

Every band takes influences from somebody, and that's ok, as long as they work it correctly and don't copy, I believe Anglagard created a unique sound even if it's derivative from the 70's (Which is my favorite musical decade).

But that's my opinion, I may be wrong.

Iván 

Ivan, ignorant does not mean stupid! We are all ignorant in a certain way! When Threefates shows the photos in the trivia section and asks us to guess, I feel the most perfect ignorant, and that's OK!

The "problem with the 80's" is that most of the best 70's bands choked during that decade, probably because of lack of inspiration, new technology and desire to make more money. Sure it is frustrating for many of us. Thanks God other bands provided the continuity, but this decade was a period of adaptation, fer sure! This decade was not as prolific as the 70's or the 90's, but it was a good start to cope with the new technology (keyboards). Nowadays prog rock is more alive than ever, and one can really find a band that fits his preferences, that's what is wonderful!

So there's these two girls talking together. One says "I never take any precautions".

The other says "Are you ignorant?!".

The first says, "Yeah, six months!"

ivan_2068 wrote:

IMHO Hybris and Epilog are by far the best prog' albums from the 90's, I believe there's not a single album from the 80's and 90's that could be even close to this two masterpieces.

It just boils down to personal tastes. While I like Anglagard, I wonder if they're just a bit overrated because I never hear the group's name spoken in other than reverential tones (if you get my drift). I think there are numerous other prog CDs that are as solid as those two, easily: Book Of The Dead  by Arsnova, Il Passo Del Soldato by Nuova Era, Esoptron by Kenso, and The Devouring by Djam Karet, to toss out a couple.

{ETC.} Anekdoten has relesed 6 albums (4 is studio).

To date they have, but I'm talkin' about the '90s. I wasn't counting live albums, either. Otherwise, Kenso's live albums are gonna smoke everybody's!

But even if there were only 5 or 6, I chose quality berore quantity, and the quality in the 90's was in Sweden.

Carry on, then. Pretend Italy and Japan don't exist.

To be precise, the 3 men Genesis are the best representation of the 80's, the decade I try to forget.

Dude, are you joking? Best of the '80s? C'mon. Kenso, Rush, (pre-1988) Tangerine Dream, Twelfth Night (with Geoff Mann), IQ and Fish-Marillion kicked ass for (most of) the '80s. Poppified Genesis???

Waters left Pink Floyd after "The Final Cut" (Which was not one of the band's best albums), and the later are not the same

Floyd's seriously overrated, anyway.

Emerson Lake & Palmer didn't released a single album, and ELPowell is not precisely a masterpiece.

And ELPowell is a seriously underrated album! It's ELP, down pat, just a bit more streamlined, with Cozy's xlnt power drumming. Now, if you were talking about that horrid To The Power Of Three album...

Kansas released their three worst albums.

I concur.

Asia: You have the right to like them, but IMHO they only released third class prog and second class AOR.

Not prog, at all.

Jethro Tull didn't released a single outstanding album in the 80's.

Except for a couple of songs, A is an outstanding album! Otherwise, you're on the money.

Rick Wakeman released mostly New Age stuff, nothing even memorable, not even 1984.

I disagree; I like 1984 quite a bit.

About Rush, you're right, Power Windows is a great album, but still I believe their best job was done in the 70's.

Power Windows is great, indeed, but Permanent Waves, Moving Pictures, Signals, and Grace Under Pressure are even better. 411: those albums came out in the '80s, and defined Rush. Out of the '70s, Hemispheres is easily their best.

It's so easy to forget isn't it? Oh I remember British Prog rules!Or did, at one time or another.Just sitting here waiting on my cab to go out for beer with my mates.To quote the great man 'Beer my love for you will never die'

                             read you boys and girls much later

dropForge wrote: To be precise, the 3 men Genesis are the best representation of the 80's, the decade I try to forget. Dude, are you joking? Best of the '80s? C'mon. Kenso, Rush, (pre-1988) Tangerine Dream, Twelfth Night (with Geoff Mann), IQ and Fish-Marillion kicked ass for (most of) the '80s. Poppified Genesis???

He was saying that poppified Genesis is the best representation of the 80s.  In other words, they show everything he associates with the 80s, and really everything he hates about them.

Best of 80s - Rush overwhelmingly. King Crimson has a few as well as Floyd's Momentary Lapse. Marillion did ok but nowhere near anything as substantial (even Misplaced Childhood) as Moving Pictures, Signals or Disciplne or Beat. They kill even the best Marillion and they're still in the 80s.

Ivan, ignorant does not mean stupid! We are all ignorant in a certain way! When Threefates shows the photos in the trivia section and asks us to guess, I feel the most perfect ignorant, and that's OK!

Don't worry Greenback, never assumed Ignorant means stupid, if you had called me stupid I would have answered you with something like  $%*+$"

If you read my post just before your's you'll notice I took no offense, only said that the same word indifferent cultural contexts can mean opposite things, but I know what you mean.

Let's there be peace among the progheads.

Useful Idiot wrote:

He was saying that poppified Genesis is the best representation of the 80s.  In other words, they show everything he associates with the 80s, and really everything he hates about them.

You understood my point, maybe I wasn't too clear.

Drop Forge wrote:

Carry on, then. Pretend Italy and Japan don't exist.

Again didn't ment that, Italian Prog' is one of my favorites, and in my post I mention the specific cases of Italian bands that were not a shadow of their 70's incarnations.

Justto end, there were some good albums in the 80'sw, but that decade was mostly dominated by Neo Prog (Soft Prog with commercial tendencies) and AOR.

The 70's were defined by Progressive Rock (until 76 or 77) even when  Disco music dominated in the last three years.

The 90's were defined mostly for the alternative music and a weak resurrection of prog'.

I don't hate everything from the 80's there's some good stuff released in that decade, but mostly is a decade with no representative genre except maybe AOR and Arena (The genre, not the band), the birth of MTV  and even most of the prog' icons sold out.

Iván

richardh wrote: [ Just to pick up on point 1V Ivan.I would name IQ's 'The Wake' (1985) as a masterpeice and Marillion 'Misplaced Childhood'(1986) is worthy of consideration as is Rush 'Power Windows'(1986).I've never thought the eighties was a dead loss prog wise.There were a few bands that kept the genre alive in that time ilke the aforementioned bands and also the German band ELOY who made some of their best prog on that decade like 'Time To Turn'(1982). 'Hybris' (which I love BTW) is very much a 'retro sounding' prog album as is Par Lindh's 'Gothic Impressions'.What the Swedish bands did was simply take prog back to the seventies sound wise and they did it very well I'm happy to say.However IMO it was IQ who made the greatest strides in the nineties with 2 superb albums 'Ever' and 'Subterannea' and were more 'progressive' in my opinion.But it's all good so I'm not sure what my argument is exactly

Yes, fantastic musicians as Par Lindh or Anglagard took prog back to the '70s, but don't you think that IQ, Marillion, Pendragon, and many neo prog bands did the same thing basing their music on Genesis first stuff? The difference: While Scandinavian bands tried to keep their sound "purely progressive", British neo prog added a lot of commercial hints.

Eighties prog was ok..as mentioned previously IQ are good , glad to see they are still making music worth listening to..Subterrenea is one of my fave by this band..and from what i've heard so far from Dark Matter... i'm impressed.There is still hope for a return to Prog. Sadly a good band just split up recently-Karnataka. Genesis in the eighties eek!! something i'd like to forget...Genesis were great till Gabriel left..ok for a bit then it went downhill when Hackett left.The late 60's/70's was the best time when Britain produced outstanding bands/music. Hopefully we shall see a return to such wonderful days.

Uhh... did somehow this thread merge with the 80s thread???

Just to get back to the actual subject of this thread... of course British prog was the best... they produced the original King Crimson and  ELP didn't they??? 

You didn't expect me to say anything else, now did you??

British prog rock is great, it's arguably the original of the genre and the most prolific regarding band and artists.

But Canadian prog, German prog, Dutch prog, Italian prog, French prog, South-American prog, Japanese prog, etc... mustn't be overlooked at all!!

Ricochet wrote: Close to German. (Tangerine Dream - hello? Klaus Schulze - hello?)

Yes the GERMANS are good with PROG too!!!!!!!!!

so are other countries too!!

But I feel the UK has contributed to a lot of the development of it!

Blacksword wrote: Its been pointed out by many in this discussion, that there are good prog acts from countries other than the UK. Good they may be, but I think its fair to say we had the most successful bands. Successful because they were the best?? Maybe, maybe not. Thats all down to taste and opinion. What makes Engalnd the home of prog, IMO, is that this is where it originated. Can anyone tell me what progressive music was being made in the US or elsewhere when the Floyd, Moody Blues, The Nice, etc were starting out??

Again... I keep running into this expressions. ¿What does IMO (...oooooooh!!!) Means?

and... I don't care. Music started on Africa. Everything else is a direct consequence of this. 

If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.

DallasBryan wrote: Wonder what a german thinks if ELP's Love Beach or Yes's Drama or Genesis's I Cant Dance is all he's ever heard by these bands?

Wow, I would not put Yes's Drama in the same quality category as ELP's Love Beach or Genesis's I Can't Dance. Drama is a far superior album than these other two, far superior.

Wow, I'm stunned.

Btw, I'm a German and Love Beach and I Can't Dance aren't worth repeated listenings, but Drama is---many, many repeated listenings.

BRITISH ARE THE BEST=TRUE

DON'T FORGET THE DUTCHIES!!!!: SUPERSISTER, FOCUS, ALQUIN, KAYAK, EARTH & FIRE, SOLUTION, EKSEPTION, AYREON, FLAIRCK, THE GATHERING(OLD), RICHOCHER, FOR ABSENT FRIENDS, SUN CAGED.

we take out "the best" and rearrange the words and we are left with:

PROG IS BRITISH