Live shows - original or improv?
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Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13871
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Topic: Live shows - original or improv?
Posted By: avestin
Subject: Live shows - original or improv?
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 09:59
What sort of a performance do you prefer in a live show?
1. Do you want the band/artist to stick to what they did on their albums without any substantial change cause you shouldn't mess with what is already good/excellent/perfect?
2. Or do you want improvisations, jam sessions and alternative versions of the familiar songs?
Give examples.
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Replies:
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 10:06
Id go for the second option, Dream Theater turned Hollow Years from a poor pop-rock attempt to an amazing pice of art by adding a spanish guitar themed intro and the most amazing 3 minute solo towards the end that i have ever heard. All in all it was increased from 4 to 9 minutes and it was one of the highlights of the Live At Budokan CD's
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: avestin
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 10:11
sleeper wrote:
Id go for the second option, Dream Theater turned Hollow Years from a poor pop-rock attempt to an amazing pice of art by adding a spanish guitar themed intro and the most amazing 3 minute solo towards the end that i have ever heard. All in all it was increased from 4 to 9 minutes and it was one of the highlights of the Live At Budokan CD's |
But if they were to alter a great song of theirs you really love, would you appreciate it better than to hear the original version?
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 10:14
All depends on how they altered it, for instance the song played just before Hollow Years, Beyond This Life, had almost 10 minutes worth added but most of it was some very strange sounding keyboard work that I think made the song worse than the studio version. Having said that most of the improv that they added was excellent!
Like I said, it all depends on what they do
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 10:27
I like a bit of improv, though nothing too excessive. Sometimes just an
adding a word or two to the orginal lyrics can make a song so much
better (eg "A mask" before the Rothery solo in Incubus from Live in
Loreley), while an extended 5 minute guitar and keyboard solo can
detract from the orginal. For that reason I prefer artists to do a
couple of songs with a fair amount of improv and the rest with just a
slightly altered lick or lyric.
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 10:51
Forgotten Son wrote:
I like a bit of improv, though nothing too excessive. Sometimes just an adding a word or two to the orginal lyrics can make a song so much better (eg "A mask" before the Rothery solo in Incubus from Live in Loreley), while an extended 5 minute guitar and keyboard solo can detract from the orginal. For that reason I prefer artists to do a couple of songs with a fair amount of improv and the rest with just a slightly altered lick or lyric. |
I think youve hit the nail on the head
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: NutterAlert
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 11:10
I saw all 3 ELP shows at Royal Albert Hall in '92 and whilst being thrilled to have finally seen them for the first time ever I was really disappointed that each show was exactly the same, even the same corny gags between tunes. I assumed it was because of the complexity of their music but it took the edge of the event....
I was therefore thrilled when I saw Keith Emerson's Nice a few years ago ( again saw them 3 times) at the amount of improv between the band, KE and Dave Kilminster trading licks and trying to outdo each other, Blinky bashing away on the drums, it was fabulous and fun. A good time was had by all. Each show was different and unique. I have much fonder memories of these shows.
.....and then there is VdGG who can head off at times into often dangerous territory at any moment...
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Posted By: DantesRing
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 11:27
I am a big fan of the bands mixing it up, but only a little. There is
something very comforting about going to a show and hearing the songs
you wanted to hear, but a little improv or a change up in the tune
really helps to make it feel like a singular event, very special.
For example, I have been fortunate enough to see Rush 19 times in
concert over the past 25 years. While their show is incredible, their
set lists and presentation never vary. That is a sign of their
professionalism and their desire to give the fans what they desire, but
I've heard them perform Tom Sawyer exactly the same 19 times, (I always
hope they would put some sort of twist on it, raggae for example just
for a couple riffs, that song would be perfect for a dub beat, ha ha).
Just saw System Of A Down (not prog I know, but a good show none the
less) and they added on several songs new openings with new lyrics and
tempo before pulling into the song truly. It made it really exciting,
and even though you know they do it every night, it still made it
special.
I also prefer bands who change up the set list nightly, Radiohead is a
perfect example of this. This seems to keep the bands more involved and
more excited about the performance.
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Posted By: Dennis
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 11:35
I think it really depends on the band. As examples, Yes tends to learn
toward recreating their songs to closely sounding like the original
studio tracks with little variation, and I believe their fans
appreciate the fact that they can do so. But bands like King Crimson
are known for their improvisations and the fans expect to hear some in
concert and they usually do. Crimson is smart by separating the written
material from the improvs, instead of inserting improvs into the songs
themselves. A whole spontanious improv live can be very exciting. I can
appreciate both aspects. Sleeper has a good point about bands improving
a dull studio track into an improved live song. I've heard many bands
do this too, and was usually happy with the new and improved
arrangements of those songs. One thing that really annoys me though is
when a band member leaves and is replaced with another, and that new
band member plays their own bit in a song that was written while the
previous member was in the band. An example of this was when Rick
Wakeman left Yes and was replaced by Patrick Moraz. Moraz was great
when doing the Relayer material that was part of his studio outing with
Yes, but he was GOD AWFUL doing the Wakeman bits. This changed the
sound of the songs completely, while the other members of Yes played
their parts exactly as written. It was like taking certain parts of a
Beethoven symphony and changing it. It just didn't work, and didn't
sound right. There are certain classic songs they should be presented
as close to the original as possible, since the jukebox in our minds
have ingrained us to that original piece.
------------- "Day dawns dark, it now numbers infinity"
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Posted By: Phil
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 11:36
Last major gig I went to was Yes in 2004, I thought they struck a good
balance - several numbers were faithful representations with just a few
embellishments - like And You And I, and Ritual - while some material
was completely re-arranged (Roundabout "unplugged" in chicago blues
style). Some of the best parts were the "battles" between Howe and
Wakeman, on South Side of the Sky and Starship Trooper - they kept the
structure and pace of the song, but went into a furious duel. Great!
Unlike Led Zep where I had to watch Jimmy Page saw his violin bow
across his guitar to no useful purpose for what felt like an eternity,
or "Moby Dick" - yawn! - but they really came alive when they did the
song straight as per the studio version - like Kashmir - on stage it
had an energy the studio version couldn't match
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Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 11:42
How about non-improvisational rearranging of material a la GG?
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 12:01
Dream Theater - Live at Budokan
ELP - Welcome back, my friends...
Deep Purple - Made in Japan
Various Liquid Tension Experiment bootlegs
I love the live improvisation!
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Posted By: yargh
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 12:03
Live shows that just rehash the albums are an insult to live music.
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Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 13:11
yargh wrote:
Live shows that just rehash the albums are an insult to live music. |
So too are live shows where the band just pointlessly noodle for yawn-inducing periods of time.
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 13:13
yargh wrote:
Live shows that just rehash the albums are an insult to live music. |
Now I wouldent go quite that far but I do like live music to at least match the overall feal and quality of studio recorded material, and improve on it were possible.
Sadley Ive never had the chance to see King Crimson perform on stage but i do very like the idea that they jam a lot on stage, its something that could make each show unique.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: yargh
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 13:13
Forgotten Son wrote:
yargh wrote:
Live shows that just rehash the albums are an insult to live music. |
So too are live shows where the band just pointlessly noodle for yawn-inducing periods of time.
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I disagree; that's an insult to the audience. It's not an insult to live music because it's at least spontaneous, which is the point of live music. The noodling could have been interesting.
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Posted By: `Ubu
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 13:18
I prefer Improv live shows, that way shows will be different one from another and not too repetitive .. but hey, thats my point of view ..
------------- "..So what´s the speed of dark?.."
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Posted By: Morandar
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 13:19
I absolutely love improvisation (in fact, it's my favourite aspect in
playing - it is witnessed by one of my bands, with which we do only jam
sessions), and I like very much when bands do them live. Two days ago I
saw Dream Theater in Milan, and liked the fact Jordan improvised almost
every keyboard solo, with the exception of the classical ones (the ones
written by Moore). This is a good choice: retaining the historical
solos and improvising the others can truly add some flavour. I also
like extended versions of the songs, with a longer ending for example.
I don't like musicians who cannot improvise. It's like a man who cannot talk while not reading...come on...
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 13:27
Some of my favourite bands are great at and known for lots of improvisations live - Gong, Guru Guru, Hawkwind, Van der Graaf Generator (also Peter Hammill solo). With VdGG or Hammill it is never clear how long an improvisational passage will last; all musicians look at Hammill all the time while playing, and when he gives a sign they know it is time to return to the normal song structure. I have watched this in Hammill concerts several times (only saw one VdGG gig so far, this year in London); it is really amazing how well it works. And I love these wild improvisational parts.
I would really hate it if an artist or a band played their material the same way they played it on the studio albums; why should I go to such a concert?
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 13:28
Morandar wrote:
I absolutely love improvisation (in fact, it's my favourite aspect in playing - it is witnessed by one of my bands, with which we do only jam sessions), and I like very much when bands do them live. Two days ago I saw Dream Theater in Milan, and liked the fact Jordan improvised almost every keyboard solo, with the exception of the classical ones (the ones written by Moore). This is a good choice: retaining the historical solos and improvising the others can truly add some flavour. I also like extended versions of the songs, with a longer ending for example.
I don't like musicians who cannot improvise. It's like a man who cannot talk while not reading...come on...
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There are worse things, many of todays popular indie bands cant perform well live at all, everything is down compared to the studio release and its just amazing to me that people like this???
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Syndromet
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 13:43
The whole point of going to a consert is to hear alternative verions of songs. I find it boring if they play their songs like if it is a studio-take. I belive a gig have to be loaded with emotions, which you won't get unless you improvise a bit. A perfect example is seeing symphony x live, wich was strictly copying their albums. On the other hand I went to see anekdoten, wich had long jam sessions in each song.
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It is said to be the first Test-pressing of the corean release??
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Posted By: Morandar
Date Posted: November 01 2005 at 14:02
@ Sleeper (I'm too lazy to quote): Well...we were talking about musicians, actually obviously, the point here is what we like or not in a prog or like concert. I'm not expecting jam sessions by punk.
------------- Dangerous to be closely minded by a closed mind.
http://www.ogd-project.it - Ordine Geometrico Demonstrata - the ultimate attempt at you will to listen.
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Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: November 02 2005 at 02:11
I like improvisational jamming!
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